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A Year Without New Bugs

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Price Watcher	Posted - 2006.09.28 02:16:00 - [1] Many times here it has been suggested that there be no new content until all existing bugs have been fixed. The standard reply is that the Dev teams and Bug Hunters are not the same and do not use the same skills. OK. Lay the Dev Teams off for a year. The new bugs come from them. Give the Bug Hunters a year to catch up. Some bugs are now older than most of the player base for crying out loud! CCP, despite its best intentions, cannot deliver new content and good playability at the same time. I would rather have a year without new bugs even if it means no new content. Imagine. A whole year where there are fewer and fewer bugs instead of more and more. Player heaven! We need a YEAR without ANY 'new content'. Nothing but BUG FIXES. New content that does not work is WORTHLESS.
Grimpak Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.28 02:18:00 - [2] Edited by: Grimpak on 28/09/2006 02:18:11 Originally by: Price Watcher The standard reply is that the Dev teams and Bug Hunters are not the same and do not use the same skills. not totally correct. dev team is diferent from content team. not dev team and bughunter team. ...unless you meant it in other way? ------- Originally by: Abdalion Originally by: Jebidus Skari What, in EVE, is a Tyrant? Me. Especially when it comes to troll threads.
w0rmy Intensive CareBearz	Posted - 2006.09.28 02:21:00 - [3] Hes right thought. When existing content works, add new content, till then stop using us as beta testers for the chinese cluster. There are bugs in game, that have been there since release, and have obviously been deemed 'Too hard to fix' by CCP. Who knows, fixing exisiting bugs just may... it just may, prevent some of the new ones happening. Originally by: Avon Originally by: Dark Shikari What single item is larger than a jetcan? My ego?
Gloria Stitz	Posted - 2006.09.28 02:23:00 - [4] I agree with the general principle, but then they may lose players. A year is way too long either way. CCP have already pushed Kali back to sort stability issues, which works for me - seems the right decision. If you are complaining about lag in a busy empire system with 400-500 players, then wake up and smell yourself At that point you are part of the problem, not part of the solution.
Gonada Gallente Cross Roads	Posted - 2006.09.28 03:13:00 - [5] Edited by: Gonada on 28/09/2006 03:13:08 show me a mmorpg that has no bugs, i dare ya. you dont like eve? leave lag? get out of high pop systems, upgrade you pos comp, get abetter connection, learn how to optimize. nuff said -I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.-
Viktor Beck The Older Gamers Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.28 03:16:00 - [6] Sorry, but this game does not have nearly enough bugs to warrant a complete halt to content progression. This game is probably one of the most bugless MMO's I have played.
Darksaber64x Ecchi co.	Posted - 2006.09.28 03:22:00 - [7] Originally by: Viktor Beck This game is probably one of the most bugless MMO's I have played. That's saying a lot if you've played a lot of MMO's Eve has it's share of problems, but it's not nearly enough to stop me from playing. Only reason why bugs appear so bad in this game is that they can cause your ship to blow up, setting you months back, while in other games you useually just have to get a rez and you'll just ignore whatever was bugged from then on.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.09.28 05:11:00 - [8] Yes, many times it has been suggested that no new content is added until bugs are fixed. However, that's because EVE has gotten many players who have NFC when it comes to an online game. Imagine, a year where nothing changes, and you have nothing new to look forward to for atleast a year. MY GOD THAT SOUNDS FUN. Seriously though, no. I bet there'd still be bugs after a year, and there'd be alot of bored people leaving during that time. I wish basic economics, and intro to logic, were taught in elementary schools and highschools, and mandatory. Fire the whatever team. Yeah, that'll be wonderful for when you want to continue progress and realize nobody wants to work for you because of the instability (among other reasons). FFs, use some common sense and think like a business man. Besidesnew content or not, there will be bugs, and if you show me a game that has no bugs, I'll show you a game that lies. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.28 05:39:00 - [9] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 28/09/2006 05:40:15 If they dont develop the game for a year, it will attract alot less new customers. New features and expansions make people come back to Eve, or try it for the first time when they hear about the expansion with new stuff. You cant just stop developing the game because there is bugs. CCP is a business and needs new players who pay for the game with money and not isk. =) --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Ukucia Gallente The Older Gamers Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.28 06:01:00 - [10] Originally by: Price Watcher Lay the Dev Teams off for a year. The new bugs come from them. Haven't thought this through, have you? When you lay people off, they don't sit around waiting for their old job to come back. And when you try to re-hire them, they are very unlikely to want to come back. So after a year, you re-hire 0 of the old devs. So you hire new devs. Well, they are completely unfamiliar with the codebase and you're asking them to provide major new features. They will produce the biggest and smelliest pile of dung that anyone ever claimed to be a MMOG. AO and SWG included. Since they don't know about all the 'oddities' of the codebase, they will blunder into massive problem after massive problem. Your strategy is a sure-fire way to end the game, not stabilize it. ---- WTB Forum Sig. Please Evemail if you'd like to sell one.

Phoenix Lonestar Litanies of Hate	Posted - 2006.09.28 07:06:00 - [11] Train the content teams in the art of bughunting? Then we get content made by people who have an appreciation for the problems they're introducing into the game?
Darksaber64x Ecchi co.	Posted - 2006.09.28 07:28:00 - [12] Most bugs CAN'T be tested for, since most don't rear their ugly head until it's implimented and 30,000 people from around the world all work off the server with the code. The devs CANNOT replicate this, so there will always be bugs. Eesh.
ArchenTheGreat Caldari Yesodic Nomads Corp Triumvirate.	Posted - 2006.09.28 07:41:00 - [13] Originally by: Darksaber64x Most bugs CAN'T be tested for, since most don't rear their ugly head until it's implimented and 30,000 people from around the world all work off the server with the code. The devs CANNOT replicate this, so there will always be bugs. Eesh. That's why EVE needs good bug tracking system. What is now is a joke. You have ZERO feedback after submitting a bug. If it's bugtracking system ever fail and stop relaying messages you would never know abuot. It discurages people from submitting bugs because you don't know if anyone reads it, not mentioning fixing it. I submitted quite a few bugs. Some were easily reproductible. Guess what? They are still there. I don't submit every bug I see simply because I can't be arsed to mess with log recorder and stuff without seeing results. So I submit bugs which are simple to see and to reproduce.
Skawl GeoTech	Posted - 2006.09.28 07:59:00 - [14] Go work in software for a while.
Burlock Ironfist Celtic Anarchy Black Reign Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.28 08:46:00 - [15] Originally by: Ukucia Originally by: Price Watcher Lay the Dev Teams off for a year. The new bugs come from them. Haven't thought this through, have you? When you lay people off, they don't sit around waiting for their old job to come back. And when you try to re-hire them, they are very unlikely to want to come back. So after a year, you re-hire 0 of the old devs. So you hire new devs. Well, they are completely unfamiliar with the codebase and you're asking them to provide major new features. They will produce the biggest and smelliest pile of dung that anyone ever claimed to be a MMOG. AO and SWG included. Since they don't know about all the 'oddities' of the codebase, they will blunder into massive problem after massive problem. Your strategy is a sure-fire way to end the game, not stabilize it. QFT.... and do you think devs would be happy in there job if they are trained to do nothing but bug test for a year? no so they would leave for that reason as well. It takes years and years to develop a good dev team that know what they are doing. EVE does have bugs, but apart from the lag issue (which is slowly getting better) there is no game breaking bugs in comparison to other games. BOOBIES!
Admai Sket	Posted - 2006.09.28 09:35:00 - [16] Guys, stop picking out the bits that sound rediculous like 'lay them off' - for crying out loud: FOCUS on the MAIN POINT which is very important: BUGS. I agree that CCP should spent time on bugs until they are ironed out, THEN work on new content. To the guy who said new content attracts new players - isn't that wrong? There is a thread circulating atm from a guy who has just started ratting and thinks it's great. I'm pretty sure that the introduction of Titans a while back would have had no affect on whether he played or not.
Enotz Amarr Terminus Est Incorporated	Posted - 2006.09.28 09:56:00 - [17] Eve isn't really that bad, bugwise, for an MMO. MMOs have bugs, that's just a fact. Anyone play FFXI; remember besieged at release? CoP missions (still lots of bugs in those though)? - MMOs have bugs, MMOs have lag, and MMOs have companies trying to fix them. Honestly, any MMO company IS giving it their all, because if they don't they lose customers. It's not like an offline game where they just go through it, test it, make sure it works, and release it; then ignore any bugs that come up. They have to try to fix those bugs to keep the game playable, and typically bugfixes cause more problems.
Major Stormer Caldari Demon Womb Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.28 10:14:00 - [18] Originally by: Price Watcher Many times here it has been suggested that there be no new content until all existing bugs have been fixed. The standard reply is that the Dev teams and Bug Hunters are not the same and do not use the same skills. OK. Lay the Dev Teams off for a year. The new bugs come from them. Give the Bug Hunters a year to catch up. Some bugs are now older than most of the player base for crying out loud! CCP, despite its best intentions, cannot deliver new content and good playability at the same time. I would rather have a year without new bugs even if it means no new content. Imagine. A whole year where there are fewer and fewer bugs instead of more and more. Player heaven! Wow, you know this HAS not been posted enough times by as many utter morons such as yourself. -------------------------- AHH the Stupid forum DELETED(!) all my mod chat in my sig when i added this image :(
Therin Dracul	Posted - 2006.09.28 10:56:00 - [19] You're not a programmer. That much is evident. EVERY time you touch a codebase that is past a certain scope, theres a chance that every "fix" is going to break something else. Make enough fixes, and you are certain to break something every once in a while. The OTHER reason it is obvious you have never programmed anything much, is your idea "layoff the dev team". Every person that leaves a team takes with them knowledge of the codebase. Oftentimes that knowledge might be hard to replace, sometimes entirely irreplacable. If they laid a large amount of people off, there would be huge portions of the code base that no-one woul dhave first hand knowledge and understanding of. That would lead to "fixes" breaking things more often. Also, fixes would start to be larger and larger as they rewrote things that were already extant in the code base. Not to mention, you would have all those people who knew every secret to your successes and failures going to work with your competitors.
SIlk Predator	Posted - 2006.09.28 11:52:00 - [20] Just a no0b type question here. Why is it that some players refer to us as "Beta testers for the China cluster"? It is my understanding that EVE has been around for three years+ while the China server has been around for one sixth the time. From what I can see we have been Beta testers since the beginning, constantly helping to improve the game. Now all of a sudden because there is a cluster in China we are "Wah Wah Wah" Beta testers for them. We have always been and will always be, Beta testers for EVE, nothing has changed. Or am I completely wrong?

Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.28 12:42:00 - [21] Originally by: SIlk Predator Just a no0b type question here. Why is it that some players refer to us as "Beta testers for the China cluster"? It is my understanding that EVE has been around for three years+ while the China server has been around for one sixth the time. From what I can see we have been Beta testers since the beginning, constantly helping to improve the game. Now all of a sudden because there is a cluster in China we are "Wah Wah Wah" Beta testers for them. We have always been and will always be, Beta testers for EVE, nothing has changed. Or am I completely wrong? You are not wrong and some people post without thinking. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
WarlockX Amarr Free Trade Corp	Posted - 2006.09.28 13:20:00 - [22] I'm a developer and if there's one thing any non coders should know it's that fixing bugs causes bugs. Small bugs should often times be left alone, otherwise you risk spending weeks or months just to cause bigger bugs. "I often quote myself. It adds spice to my conversation."

Eldo Davip Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2006.09.28 14:02:00 - [23] Thread cleaned. If you don't agree with the OP please don't resort to flaming. And Price Watcher, I'm afraid what you're suggesting is very much impossible. You can't layoff the Dev team, if only just hire more Bug hunters and write better code. Email Us (Report a bad post) \| Forum Rules - Read 'em! \| Website

Price Watcher	Posted - 2006.09.28 22:09:00 - [24] All kinds of replies as to how it just can't be done, bugs are here forever. Including from some folks who at least claim to be programmers. Some programmers! "Bugs here to stay, never to go away. You're just wrong, if you want them gone." Sing it! With FEELING! ROTFLOL! Not one of these kind folks made any suggestion as to how eve might be de-bugged. I suggest they are not programmers at all or at least not very good programmers. The 'business guys' made better suggestions as to why the Dev Team should not be laid off. They made sense. OK. Don't lay off the Dev Team. But have them work 3 days a week and the debuggers 5 days a week. Give debugging a chance! We need a YEAR without ANY 'new content'. Nothing but BUG FIXES. New content that does not work is WORTHLESS.
Locke DieDrake Port Royal Independent Kontractors Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.09.28 22:13:00 - [25] The concept of complicated software without bugs is entirely strange to anyone that works with complicated software. In my experiance, such things are not possible. Or, rather, if they are possible, they are HIGHLY improbable, as it has yet to happen in the known universe. ___________________________________________ The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain. ___________________________________________
Dakath	Posted - 2006.09.28 22:52:00 - [26] OK, programmer. Do you have any ideas about how it can be made better, or are you just saying, NAY! NAY! NAY! BUGS ARE HERE TO STAY! You say you are a programmer, are you a good one? Do you have any positive suggestions? I could claim to be a programmer too, but I won't. If I did you can bet I would make at least ONE suggestion as to how eve could be debugged. Originally by: Locke DieDrake The concept of complicated software without bugs is entirely strange to anyone that works with complicated software. In my experiance, such things are not possible. Or, rather, if they are possible, they are HIGHLY improbable, as it has yet to happen in the known universe.
Clementina Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.09.28 22:59:00 - [27] Edited by: Clementina on 28/09/2006 23:00:00 First, just about everybody claims to be a programmer on the internet. I'll claim to be a programmer too, both out of tradition, and also because I really am one. Second, if the bugs really were intolerable, you would quit. The fact that you are still here, proves that CCP's software is sufficiently debugged. Third, If CCP felt that it was worth further debugging their software, there are ways to go about it, none of which have been stated by the Original poster. Essentially, any programming house that is worth anything (and I'll assume that CCP is worth something) will have approximately one quality assurance person per developer. Furthermore, they'll have one quality assurance team per development team working on a project (for instance, the programmers working on the installer for the client will have a quality assurance team that shadows them). Under normal circumstances CCP may wish to hire more QA people so that there are 1.1 QA people per developer. Or something. However CCP's problem is unique because customer feedback regarding bugs is unreliable. Part of this is their own fault as their system for collecting bugs noticed by the users sucks. They should fix that. The other part is that the definition of 'bug' in a game is subjective. Some people think that carriers doing level 4 missions is a bug, others don't. Because of the subjectivity, some bugs may go unreported.
Therin Dracul	Posted - 2006.09.28 23:10:00 - [28] Originally by: Dakath OK, programmer. Do you have any ideas about how it can be made better, or are you just saying, NAY! NAY! NAY! BUGS ARE HERE TO STAY! You say you are a programmer, are you a good one? Do you have any positive suggestions? I could claim to be a programmer too, but I won't. If I did you can bet I would make at least ONE suggestion as to how eve could be debugged. Its an old expression in computer programming, that any given program has at least one bug init, and can be rewritten so as to be shorter by at least 2 lines. Thus, taken to the extreme: any given program could be optimized to the point where it was only 1 line long, but it would not run. Ever play that "Telephone" game? Try doing it with 30 plus people, except the primary means of communication is email/irc and writing of dry technical documentation, or the dreaded "meeting" where you get them all into one room and things get even worse.
Locke DieDrake Port Royal Independent Kontractors Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.09.28 23:20:00 - [29] Originally by: Dakath OK, programmer. Do you have any ideas about how it can be made better, or are you just saying, NAY! NAY! NAY! BUGS ARE HERE TO STAY! You say you are a programmer, are you a good one? Do you have any positive suggestions? I could claim to be a programmer too, but I won't. If I did you can bet I would make at least ONE suggestion as to how eve could be debugged. Originally by: Locke DieDrake The concept of complicated software without bugs is entirely strange to anyone that works with complicated software. In my experiance, such things are not possible. Or, rather, if they are possible, they are HIGHLY improbable, as it has yet to happen in the known universe. First, I never claimed to be a programer. I'm not one. I am however a technologist, and I do some coding here and there. I'm not without qualifications when it comes to the subject at hand. Second, My point stands. Software includes bugs. This is not something you can argue. PERIOD. That is not to say that the number and severity of those bugs can't be reduced. It can and is regularly by CCP. The unfortunate part of this is that in any given bug fix, you are highly likely to introduce more bugs. What has been suggest in this thread is ludacris and pointless. In addition, if you lay off the dev team, who exactly is going to fix the bugs? Bug hunters FIND them. Developers FIX them. Good god, if your understanding of software were any less you'd still be trying to find the any key. ___________________________________________ The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain. ___________________________________________
F'nog Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.29 05:05:00 - [30] I'll bring up something in support of what goes wrong when the devs leave. Billboards. Two or three years ago we were promised the ability to pay for corp ads on billboards. Maybe you've noticed this still isn't implemented? That's because the dev who designed the billboard software left Eve shortly after release. Now, nobody at CCP knows how to change billboards so that players can buy ad space on them. Do you really want something like this to happen to a critical system because the dev who wrote the code was laid off and got a job somewhere else, and likely not in Iceland? Imagine if no one knew how to fix a bug that got you stuck whenever you jumped into a new system? That's the sort of thing this "idea" could lead to. Originally by: DB Preacher The only time BoB's backs are to the wall is when backdoor bandit is in local.



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