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Piracy is doomed to extinction

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Torik	Posted - 2003.10.24 16:23:00 - [1] It is my opinion that piracy in this game is soon going to disappear as a viable long-term endevour. However, I do not think that it will be caused by devs nerfing pirates but by the EVE population maturing and evolving. With the proliferation of pirates in low-sec space, a lot of the players found profitable ventures inside high-sec space. With fewer players going out into low-sec space, pirates are slowly being starved out. There are too many predators for too little prey. At the same time players are now massively organizing into alliances that are successfull in forcing pirates out of their regions. The pirates are being forced out of the richest regions and have to move to poorer regions which also happen to have fewer players. There are two things that can happen: the EVE universe evolves or the pirates evolve. For the EVE universe to evolve, new rich areas on the fringes have to be opened. Enterprising individuals and corps will go there in search of their fortunes leaving the protection of empire space and the alliances. Ultimately these areas will also become developed and new anti-pirate alliances wil form. For the pirates to evolve they have to find new ways to make isk without having to become miners or manuacturers. This is already happening. Pirate corps are joining alliances or alligning themselves with megacorps. They are becoming privateers and mercenaries. Ultimately as the EVE universe develops and evolves, the pirates will either have to adapt or face extinction.
Danton Marcellus	Posted - 2003.10.24 16:28:00 - [2] Think mobile refinarys and using the map, buh-bye gate, hello miners! Convert Stations
Crimsonjade	Posted - 2003.10.24 16:42:00 - [3] CCP has failed to create an aura of good vs evil. there is no way for a pirate to make a living by camping gates, that is ridiculous. pirates are not supposed to "sit and wait", instead pirates are supposed to be the offenders. in my opinion CCP needs to create more pirate and bounty hunter types. the only way to do this is to create some sort of avenue for the pirates and bounty hunters to operate with effectiveness on the fringes of empire space and with little effectiveness in empire space. this would allow the pirates to prey on the corporations taking hold on the fringes getting the best of the outter regions and still maintaining markets in and around empire space, instead of merely letting pirates be "vultures" in the wastelands of the universe. there also needs to be a bounty system that basically works like this: if you have a bounty on your head anyone with positive sec level can take on the bounty contract. this means that they can hunt that pirate anytime, anywhere. they can only do one contract and it must be taken out 24 hrs before they engage. the contract will act just like a declaration of war between two corps. the contract will allow both parties to shoot at the each other will no sec level loss or concord intervention anywhere in the universe. that is just my 2 cents... No pain, no palm; no thorns, no throne; no gall, no glory; no cross, no crown.
Plasmatique	Posted - 2003.10.24 17:12:00 - [4] Edited by: Plasmatique on 24/10/2003 17:13:04 Imagine.... Let's say I'm a pirate. I have the new Mk28 x-ray system-wide ship scanner. I can run a scan of all ships in the entire system and see their cargo, current destination and current location. Oh look what I found! An industrial with 1000 megacyte onboard. Looks like he's heading for XXX system. I relay this information to my pirate mates. We look at the map and choose a system to set a trap in. My piratemates go to that system and activate a warp interdictor which we have placed somewhere between the warp points of the gates. Bingo, the indy gets snared in the warp interdiction. The indy drops out of warp when passing it and gets scrambled and webbed by one of our pirates. Cargo jettisoning is demanded and he can either comply or be destroyed and podded. My pirate corp gets a lovely loot either way. The above scenario avoids the need for gate camping and wholesale destruction of everything which comes by the stargate/jumpin point. The pirates were able to discern a profitable target and lay a trap for the victim somewhere other than the usual places. This also requires teamwork and planning. It also negates the ability for you to look at the map and choose a "safe" route as the pirating locations will be random. Since you specifically can be targeted for pirating by what you carry, you might be wise to hire escorts. This also raises another profession up in status....the SPY. A spy can sit in a non-descript system location and doing scans of all traffic, taking note of their cargo and destinations. Said spy can than relay any potential targets to any and all pirate corps....for a price This will make pilots carrying valuable cargo use the waypoint option to avoid traveling in a straight line to destination, possibly avoiding getting interdicted. But alas, most likely nothing but a pipe dream... ..................................... Proud Owner of a Navy Issue Raven
Jessica Logan	Posted - 2003.10.24 17:30:00 - [5] 'tis one thing I find amusing about the whole "Piracy" thing: From what I've seen, Pirates seem willing to screech "0.0 is a dangerers plaice11" when someone moans about being destroyed there.....yet these seem Pirates seem incapable of listening when they get destroyed in Empire space. o.O?
Kakalot	Posted - 2003.10.24 18:12:00 - [6] )Indeed. The fact that pirates dont like to mine has made them incapable of dealing with alliance forces. The profit made from pirating is simply not sufficient to support such kind of war. As a matter of fact, pirates were forced to pirate within empire space. This in fact has forced the pirate to adapt themselves in order to survive, so gate camping was practiced by most of the pirate corps atm. I myself is a solo pirate, hence gate camping simply does not fit my situation... I imagine the scenario in which new regions are opened up. As a matter of fact, anti-pirates and wealthy corps would move there to claim the region, again they have the advantage over the pirates... I forsee the extinction of pirate corps if things keep going the way that goes against the pirates. Believe it or not .. playing a pirate is much much harder than playing a good emplyee in a wealthy corp . . . This includes those who do camp at jump in points. As far as i've seen, all those who whine in the forum are either immature/n00bs/carebears (sorry for the language but i cant find any better terms ) I can hardly find any one being a member of a wealthy corp whines. Obviously its the benefit of mining bistot and such wipes off their worries of losing ships.. When someone wins, someone loses. Regional alliances are winning atm while pirates and carebears are losing. In other words they are victims of regional alliances .. I've come to the point when i ask myself: "why some ppl (carebears) whines so so much ?" . Well, i thought regional alliances need someone to fight them and logically pirates would be the best option (Okay they are role playing here ). Because .. well do u actually think they give a care for the carebears? Sorry dont think so.. Pirates, just like regional alliance, are role playing too . . and their taget would be both carebears and alliance forces. It makes sense to me that the more alliance forces kill the pirates, the more the pirates would kill the carebears . Now alliances of pirates have been formed yet these newly formed alliances dont have the might to go to war with regional forces.. These pirate alliances exist to protect each other , in a sense ... I can fortell the next scenario when stations and such are introduced. Regional alliances would be the first one to own such cool items. I wonder this would lead the game to a new stage? Where EVE consists of only a few big "clans" that live peacefully with each other? OR there might be a clan that realizes its potential to "rule them all"? I doubt cuz there are always someone who likes the idea of being independent and free from obligations, like me here . Well i think i go a bit too far .. whoops guess i should return to what i'm doing: pirating ________________________________________________________ http://users.pandora.be/zebras/Kakalot.jpg
Torik	Posted - 2003.10.24 18:17:00 - [7] More observations: Piracy in EVE is a predator-prey system. The pirates are the predators and the miners and traders are the prey. With sufficient prey, the predators will 'feed' well and grow in numbers. However, when the prey population gets too low, the predators starve. In order to restore equilibrium the predator population has to be reduced so the prey population can grow and sustain the predator population. In the past lot of players tried moving into low-sec space to get to the good ore and NPC loot. This made pirating attractive due to a lot of available victims. As the number and effectiveness of pirates grew, the non-pirates decided that low-sec space was not worth the danger so they found profitable ventures inside high-sec space. Suddenly the pirates have not enough victims to keep them all in business. What has to happen is that the number of pirates have to be reduced enough to make low-sec space attractive again for non-pirats. Then the few remaining pirates will have enough victims to sustain them. This means that a large number of pirates have to either quit or find other employment. As I already suggested those that wish to remain fighters will have to become either privateers or mercenaries.
Johnsus	Posted - 2003.10.24 18:28:00 - [8] ...and I believe that the remaining pirates that stick to their guns and method of gameplay will become legendary. Those who stomp off and pout because there is no one left to kill will fade from existance and their names forgotten. I think having a few legendary pirates to make me shake in my boots would be far more exciting than everyone in a BS deeming themselves "the b4dd35t d00d in 5p4c3!" ~yawn~ (took me 5 minutes to spell those 3 words in d00d-speak. dunno how you children do it) Johnsus - CEO "When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me."
Arud	Posted - 2003.10.24 18:39:00 - [9] one thing I think ruins alot for pirates are those pirates that demand cargo and then kill you anyways, if non pirate players would know that if they jettison their cargo they could safely go away then it would result in much much more travel through 0.0 space I think that the big pirate corps whould even hunt down pirates that violate this
Danton Marcellus	Posted - 2003.10.24 18:54:00 - [10] Myself I'd happily visit 0.0 more often if I wasn't sure that all pirate corporations co-operated like little carebears and never killed eachother. If I thought they themselves risked a fight over their campspot I wouldn't be so humiliated being wasted by the camping lamer. Convert Stations

Borg Assimilation	Posted - 2003.10.25 12:00:00 - [11] I had to evolve becuase CCP is killing the way pirates play and I get threatened with a ban. So I've started to take screenshots as requested by a legal representative. Its a sad day when Eve starts to go down the road of becoming a safe 'Space Mining Sim'. This will eventualy kill the game not the pirates.
Taurequis	Posted - 2003.10.25 13:09:00 - [12] And Borgs idea of pirating is stealing ore from newbies in high sec space then getting them to shoot him so they die by concord. Lets hope your adjusting of tactics involves something with a little more skill...
Shock	Posted - 2003.10.25 13:17:00 - [13] Quote: With the proliferation of pirates in low-sec space, a lot of the players found profitable ventures inside high-sec space. With fewer players going out into low-sec space, pirates are slowly being starved out. There are too many predators for too little prey. They have this partially to thank themselves for that. By permacamping bottlenecks after a while everybody just starts avoiding those places. Also most pirates in EVE think that they should have the power to stand up against corps many times their size and financial might. So they think the game is wrong when they stay and fight the escorts from larger corps and lose. That's not realistic. Every heard of 'hit-and-run'? A criminal that stays behind or camps a hotspot for an endless amount of time and starts a shoot-out with people who's only purpose to counter his kind: cops and escorts, should die, period. The prey is evolving, a predator that's too stupid to do the same, simply dies. Bye bye Tank! --- soonÖ
Indigo Seqi	Posted - 2003.10.25 14:44:00 - [14] It's nobodies "fault" in this game, the only people to blame are CCP for not thinking over this one a bit more. How can you blame pirates for trying their best to make money being a criminal and how can you blame the other players for trying to make money by doing the other stuff. Geez grow up.
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2003.10.25 14:48:00 - [15] Shock, I partly agree. Pirates and PK'ers might be finding it harder to do their job simply because their victims are wiser, better skilled, and more able to avoid their oh-so-obvious camping spots. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Danton Marcellus	Posted - 2003.10.25 15:03:00 - [16] It's evolution baby! Convert Stations
Drethen Nerevitas	Posted - 2003.10.25 16:36:00 - [17] OMG...Techell are pulling off their racing jackets in preparation of the event beginning...do we see fur? We see fur! _______________________________________________________________________ *IMPORTANT: Devs (and players) please take notice.* 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7.
Danton Marcellus	Posted - 2003.10.25 17:13:00 - [18] Shaven not furred... Convert Stations
Captain Lugnut	Posted - 2003.10.25 18:05:00 - [19] Quote: I had to evolve becuase CCP is killing the way pirates play and I get threatened with a ban. So I've started to take screenshots as requested by a legal representative. Its a sad day when Eve starts to go down the road of becoming a safe 'Space Mining Sim'. This will eventualy kill the game not the pirates. you were told to stop using an exploit or you would be banned by ccp and so you talked to a lawyer??????? time you got a real life there....
Drethen Nerevitas	Posted - 2003.10.25 18:09:00 - [20] Quote: Shaven not furred... The name's mine. AFK, mine. Genesis Secret Scordite. _______________________________________________________________________ *IMPORTANT: Devs (and players) please take notice.* 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7.

Lilan Kahn	Posted - 2003.10.25 18:21:00 - [21] lol utter bull, you woud be suprices abut how much mony some corps make on pirateing, and on side not, piartes dont camp all day mostly only after DT to get the market exploiters and at peak times the rest of the time is spendt on mining, hauling and geting rid of the loot made in the last 12-24 hours Originally by: Eris Discordia We break after X amount of threads, then we go wild and then we get our medication.
Klydor	Posted - 2003.10.25 18:25:00 - [22] Plasmatique's idea is in my opinion very appealing. However for it to work, been shown in local would have to be optional. Ships entering a system then either risk warping straight to the next gate and potentially been hijacked by pirates. Or they use their scanners to determine whether any pirates are in the system and their approximate location. However that said, it would still be much easier for the pirates to camp the outbound gate and snare the attractive cargo that way, unless their was a way of knowing an id tag for a ship and configuring your warp disrupter to pull just that one ship out of warp. That way you could pull an indy that is protected by 5 bs's out of warp and hope you can take the cargo before the 5 bs's exit their current warp and re-warp to their striken indy. This tactic could also be used for hitting individuals to collect bounty :P I would prefer forcing players to come out of warp at least 50km from the nearest stargate and potentially even further. Yes travel will take a lot longer, but then maybe people would be willing to pay others to fetch and carry for them... Also it gives pirates a much better oppertunity to camp outbound gates. Camping in bound gates would be less profitable as most pilots would simply turn tail and re-enter the gate. But yet again if having your name listed in local continues for all to see they'll have no option but to camp in bound gates and kill as pilots jump in.
undercover	Posted - 2003.10.25 18:50:00 - [23] Pirateering is not supposed to be a easy occupation. You should be hounded from pillar to post. You should be transient never calling one place home. It's the nature of the job - you are the bad guys. Set up camps at different systems, move around. Get people confused as to where you will appear next. Put on your disguise at certain times and mine/trade like everyone else, disappear for a few days. People will get lax, then pounce back with avengence. Set up a bogus camp somewhere, people will relax their guard when they think they have escaped, then pounce on them a few systems away. Then move to another system. I wouldn't say pirateering was a full time occupation - just a moonlighting one.. It also appears that a lot of bored individuals are just declaring war on small corporations for the fun of it. Can this be termed pirateering? Off topic - make the corp declaring war pay 10m isk to CCP everyday the war lasts. Make war cost something to the originator. - ends -
Hakera	Posted - 2003.10.25 18:52:00 - [24] Ive never been a pirate - but I do sympathise with them on some points. As Jade said in her post on a history of pirating, back in may and the first 2-3 months was the goldon age of pirating - lots of new players and starting corps to hunt and pod. But it was getting excessive, whole regions were cut-off by pirate blockades and they were running rampant in the empire. But as players learnt how to avoid blockades and with mwd and good bookmarks the blockades were easily ran. The main problem from my perspective as a small corp member is there is no need to leave empire space. From early on your can see the continously bright escape pod destroyed dots on the map at all the fringe region bottleneck systems. Combined with the difficulty in making it worthwhile leaving the empire, risk v's reward, alliances claiming whole regions and making it impossible to enter their space, pirates at the entrances to the fringe regions. It simply isnt worth the risk for the chance of 60 jumps to mine some bistot when we can mine scordite and make 2mill an hour each with little to fear. I think most small corps will have considered that and probably chosen to stay within the empire space or join an alliance, but then the alliances are not safe - continously at war with each other and war ultimatly costs even if you do win with no losses and that is time spent either mining or npc farming. So what can a pirate do? Now they have moved to 0.4- empire systems and they camp the jump-in points webbing, scrambling and jamming the ships before the player has a chance to respond since the client has not loaded. They have taken the hunt to the prey coming in as far as they dare into the empire knowing well the rules of concord responses. Is it fair - no - players should get a fair chance to respond and have the same invunerability as coming out of warp or at least an invunerability till the client is loaded. It may not make much difference but at least it is fair - then at least a pirate can use a sensor booster and lock in 2secs, maybe catch them before the autopilot warp starts. As for Noob killing in 1.0 etc that is not right and Tank and others who do this deserve their bans - podding experienced players fine! But Noobs no, perhaps a fault in game design where a noob should have an extra protection from this based on age of the account to stop this. The pirates may also need some way to distinquish between noobs and the rest. In nature maybe the lion always goes for the weak prey, but the newborns are always left hidden and safe. So what can CCP do to balance this? I think one would be to make jump in/gate camping fair by the gate-to-gate jumping as one sollution. Most importantly - give me and my small corp a reason to leave the empire space that would be worth the risk other than bistot. If pirates cant camp gates/jump in points, give them another possible tool, such as better scanners or black market agent info on large shipments/convoys to attack. eg such as we have the location service - extend thsi to say a possible loaded convoy is heading back along x route. Just one idea. Give pirates the ability to hit and run but not to camp - no pirate i think wants to sit there and camp a jump in/gate spot, let them enter secure areas attempt a hit and run raid and get out before concord shows up. I think pirating should be all about hit & run raids rather than camping - thinking wild west here :-) When player objects come in - this wil give quite a good dimension to pirating - maybe they could even get cloaked bases to operate from?? Cloaking is good but as they say - it will only work if they cant be seen on local or the person is afk or not monitoring local. That way they could use stealth to launch their hit and run raids. The criminal flag idea should also make it very interesting so after they have launched their raids they cannot maruad for too long before they draw the attention of police/bounty hunters There are lots of ideas already discussed by others - pirating is not balanced atm, it needs to be to make it fair to all. Just my thoughts on the idea Dumbledore - Eve-I.com
Kunming	Posted - 2003.10.25 19:00:00 - [25] @Plasmatique: Thats what I'm telling all the time... Good to see someone share my ideas. Sad to see no reaction from CCP. (Like thats a good idea or will think about it, even better if they say we r working on such a thing) Intercepting since BETA


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