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Invention and acceptable replacement for Reverse Engineering?

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Athren Soulsteal Gallente Orion Faction	Posted - 2006.10.02 19:24:00 - [1] Ok, take 2. Sorry I forgot to add the words "With a fish" which has always been an acceptable form of showing annoyance. After almost four (4) years of promising us Reverse Engineering they do a bait and switch move with Invention as outlined here: Linkage First off letÆs look at what exactly reverse engineering is: Reverse engineering (RE) is the process of discovering the technological principles of a mechanical application through analysis of its structure, function and operation. It often involves taking something (e.g., a mechanical device, an electronic component, a software program) apart and analyzing its workings in detail, usually with the intention to construct a new device or program that does the same thing without actually copying anything from the original. The verb form is to reverse-engineer. In EVE this was to mean taking something like a Blood Red Medium Laser Crystal and RE it then ending (if successful) with a BPO/BPC allowing you to create and sell your version. With the current proposed ôinventionö system you must use a BPC (thank god they are not forcing you to use a BPO) in order to invent something. The first problem with that is WTH are the entire BPOS? I have been collecting items and special items to reverse for four years. I have 4 harvester drones in my ôto be reversedö can, where the heck am I going to get a BPC so I can invent the BP to build these. I have a prototype hull expander +30%, Heck I cant even find a normal expander BPO, there is no way I will ever find one for any of the 400+ prototype Items I have. RE was supposed to be a way we could create our own brand of an item, this invention scheme will only give us the same item as every one else is ôinventingö Sighà 4 years wasted collecting, bartering and searching for unique items only to be clothes lined by the DEV team. And if you put ALL of the areas we must explore for the items required by ôinventionö in 0.0 space, I will call a POX down on the lot of you. (JK ) But seriously ppl the point I am making here is take a look at any item in the market and see if you can find a BPO or BPC. Unless the BPs are all re-seeded we will not be inventing very much. Quote: Think about the people that did fight you fairly. Think.... that were honorable and helped you out in times of need. Those are the real heroes of EVE. I wish I could fit all the Quote
Missie Moomingirl	Posted - 2006.10.02 19:26:00 - [2] Even if reverse engineering came out you would not have been able to reverse items such as harvesters, including all other named and faction items, the only thing the players would have been able to make is t1 and t2 items.
Athren Soulsteal Gallente Orion Faction	Posted - 2006.10.02 19:51:00 - [3] Edited by: Athren Soulsteal on 02/10/2006 19:54:52 you right under the current system of invention, this is 180 deg from RE as described. The again the topic is, is invention a sutable replacement for RE as had been described(even by the devs) from beta to early this year. Quote: Nafri Caldari Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn Posted - 2006.10.02 18:45:00 - [5] - Quote as op said, reverse engineering is something announced years ago, and it was announced quite different than the "new" reverse engineering we will see now QFT, RE is the one thing that brought me back to EVE, that is that it was going to be in KALI. Quote: Think about the people that did fight you fairly. Think.... that were honorable and helped you out in times of need. Those are the real heroes of EVE. I wish I could fit all the Quote
Major Stormer Caldari Demon Womb Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.02 19:55:00 - [4] I rather like the sound of it. Im sorry but until its at least on the test server, i dont see how you can "dis" it until you have tried it fully yourself. -------------------------- Above post is my opinion only and does not represent my corp/alliance.
Missie Moomingirl	Posted - 2006.10.02 19:59:00 - [5] Originally by: Major Stormer I rather like the sound of it. Im sorry but until its at least on the test server, i dont see how you can "dis" it until you have tried it fully yourself. I believe he/she is upset because she wont be able to reverse engineer bpcs/bpos from her faction/rare items such as harvesters and whatever other rare stuff she collected. The truth is, even if they went ahead with reverse engineering you would not be able to invent anything more than basic t1 and t2 modules anyway. You were never going to be able to make harvester bpcs no matter what.
Miss Overlord Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2006.10.02 20:02:00 - [6] CCP have been asked to put them ingame again but like a few other things falls on death ears
Android Mindslave Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2006.10.02 20:16:00 - [7] T1 cargo expander BPOs might not be seeded on the market, but that does not mean they are not in game. Expect T2 cargo expanders to be VERY expensive.
Athren Soulsteal Gallente Orion Faction	Posted - 2006.10.02 20:17:00 - [8] Quote: I believe he/she is upset because she wont be able to reverse engineer bpcs/bpos from her faction/rare items such as harvesters and whatever other rare stuff she collected. That is part of it, actually back in 03 we were told that Reverse was in game if you knew where to look and that all Items in game (from ammo to bases) could be RE. Collecting what was needed to do reverse. The equivalent would be spending the next 2 months lvling rocket science for invention (as outlined in the blog) only to have it switched when invention is released to having to learn a different skill "Inventing Rockets". IE, lots of wasted time. Also, it was not a matter of making a T2 item but that you could create your own ôbrandö of items. You would not belive what I have in my RE can, I have been collecting items since beta. Not just rare and named items but special items like a snow ball launcher and snow balls. Do you think we will ever get BPs for those things? See on RE you could recreate anything you get, with Invention, well it not really invention itÆs recreation. Really whatÆs the difference from a buying a BPC of the T2 item instead of spinning your wheels to maybe get one through invention? Quote: Think about the people that did fight you fairly. Think.... that were honorable and helped you out in times of need. Those are the real heroes of EVE. I wish I could fit all the Quote
kirjava	Posted - 2006.10.02 20:21:00 - [9] Just a thought, but does anyone know what skills are needed to do invention? I know its slightly off topic but i didnt want to start a new thread. And T2 WCS will be hitting the shelves soon aswell :)
Ghoest	Posted - 2006.10.02 20:22:00 - [10] blah blah blah Originally by: Athren Soulsteal First off letÆs look at what exactly reverse engineering is: Reverse engineering (RE) is the process of discovering the technological principles of a mechanical application through analysis of its structure, function and operation. It often involves taking something (e.g., a mechanical device, an electronic component, a software program) apart and analyzing its workings in detail, usually with the intention to construct a new device or program that does the same thing without actually copying anything from the original. The verb form is to reverse-engineer. In EVE this was to mean taking something like a Blood Red Medium Laser Crystal and RE it then ending (if successful) with a BPO/BPC allowing you to create and sell your version. With the current proposed ôinventionö system you must use a BPC (thank god they are not forcing you to use a BPO) in order to invent something..... ....RE was supposed to be a way we could create our own brand of an item, this invention scheme will only give us the same item as every one else is ôinventingö You can define game elements and argue semantics all you want. CCP never did and thats all that matters. Personally I think the who invention/exploration deal sounds great. Wherever you went - here you are.

Jowen Datloran Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2006.10.02 20:28:00 - [11] Personally I have never liked the sound of "reverse emgimeering" while "invention" on the other hand get two thumps up. And as far I remember nothing has ever been promised regarding reverse engineering. Just the usual pile of rumors and speculations. ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute
Wrayth Osu Caldari Intergalactic House of Pi Distant Star Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.02 20:31:00 - [12] Actually, I think the most relevant issue to discuss is this: What's the point of ANY system if it requires you to get your hands on the Item or a BPC for it to begin with. After all THE WHOLE POINT of these "solutions" is that the problem we have now is that's it's impossible to get a BPO / BPC for these items and/or the items themselves are too expensive. The reason we have this problem is that certain groups have monopolized certain BPOs. When whatever solution CCP releases comes out, those Monopolies will be inflating thier prices accordingly. And you can be sure they wont be selling BPCs. ____________________________________________________________________ Wrayth - "These are not the carebears you are looking for." Pirate - "These are not the carebears we are looking for."
F'nog Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.02 20:34:00 - [13] Originally by: Wrayth Osu Actually, I think the most relevant issue to discuss is this: What's the point of ANY system if it requires you to get your hands on the Item or a BPC for it to begin with. After all THE WHOLE POINT of these "solutions" is that the problem we have now is that's it's impossible to get a BPO / BPC for these items and/or the items themselves are too expensive. The reason we have this problem is that certain groups have monopolized certain BPOs. When whatever solution CCP releases comes out, those Monopolies will be inflating thier prices accordingly. And you can be sure they wont be selling BPCs. All you need is a T1 BPC. Those are readily available everywhere in the game. And if you somehow can't get one, just buy the BPO and make copies. Originally by: DB Preacher The only time BoB's backs are to the wall is when backdoor bandit is in local.
robacz Gallente	Posted - 2006.10.02 20:34:00 - [14] Dev blog says: Quote: Invention & Reverse Engineering û Initially for Kali1 we wonÆt have reverse engineering. ThatÆs when you take an item apart and hope to be able to figure out how it was put together in hopes of making a blueprint out of it. What we do have is Invention. ThatÆs when you take a T1 BPC, some Datacores, a Data Interface and some optional stuff like tech 1 items and Decryptors then mix it all up and hope that they output a tech 2 BPC. ThatÆs right; you can research for a specific T2 BPC with invention. The Data Interfaces are built out of items acquired through mini-professions like hacking. The real clincher is that the Datacores are bought from your research agents in exchange for research points. My fear here is that now with some work players will be able to have all the T2 gear they want but maybe itÆs time that T2 become a sort of baseline. So I take it RE wont be in Kali 1, but is still planned for later Kali patches. Please note that he named both Invention and Reverse Engeneering as Kali features. Is there another blog denying this? ___________ Buying/Selling: Implants, Cargo Expanders and more
Brolly Caldari The Department of Justice	Posted - 2006.10.02 20:37:00 - [15] The whole manu, R&D aspect of eve has always seemed to be a bit of an afterthought to the game, but I shall keep my final verdict until when I have had a good faff with it. After 4 years of playing eve I have come to the realisation the only aspect of the game I was intrested in would be ****, but someday....maybe....ccp will get bored of shooting things and realize there is a shed load more they can do with eve. Remember, this is not the end of manu and R&D, this is the first (excluding the exclusive tech 2) step since release that everyone can actually get hold of. One of the greatest screw up ever has to be the fact it's all going to be based around BPC's. Say goodbye to any copying slots that are left anywhere outside a pos. /Me forsee's a shedload of lab complaints in the future
Athren Soulsteal Gallente Orion Faction	Posted - 2006.10.02 20:51:00 - [16] Edited by: Athren Soulsteal on 02/10/2006 20:52:49 Quote: And as far I remember nothing has ever been promised regarding reverse engineering. Just the usual pile of rumors and speculations. If you started playing EVE in the last year to 18 months you are right. CCP went quite on how RE was to work. But back in beta03-04 we were told exactly how it would work. In the last year CCP did go quite on the mechanics of RE and only said stuff like this from the Official KALI announcement posted on the website: Quote: The final component of Kali will be factional warfare, in which players will have the option to align themselves with an NPC faction. Also included in the Path to Kali will be the opening of new regions in the game universe, the addition of significant exploration content, next-generation player R&D that includes reverse engineering capabilities, additional ship upgrades and player professions, the introduction of combat boosters, and the addition of new warships. Quote: All you need is a T1 BPC. Those are readily available everywhere in the game. And if you somehow can't get one, just buy the BPO and make copies. Like I said, go look on the market, pick any item then try and find a BPO/BPC for it. If youÆre lucky you may find 10% of the itemÆs BPs. I have been collecting BPOs since beta and there are BPOs that may be in game but that does not mean that any player will ever get one. One of the DEVs once said that there is a BPO in game for evey item including star bases, but that doeÆs not mean that any player will ever see it much less get one. You stand a better chance at winning the t2 lottery than getting a t1 BPO on most of the items in game. Quote: Think about the people that did fight you fairly. Think.... that were honorable and helped you out in times of need. Those are the real heroes of EVE. I wish I could fit all the Quote
Wrayth Osu Caldari Intergalactic House of Pi Distant Star Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.02 21:09:00 - [17] Originally by: F'nog Originally by: Wrayth Osu Actually, I think the most relevant issue to discuss is this: What's the point of ANY system if it requires you to get your hands on the Item or a BPC for it to begin with. After all THE WHOLE POINT of these "solutions" is that the problem we have now is that's it's impossible to get a BPO / BPC for these items and/or the items themselves are too expensive. The reason we have this problem is that certain groups have monopolized certain BPOs. When whatever solution CCP releases comes out, those Monopolies will be inflating thier prices accordingly. And you can be sure they wont be selling BPCs. All you need is a T1 BPC. Those are readily available everywhere in the game. And if you somehow can't get one, just buy the BPO and make copies. Well, I'll partial smack myself for not actually reading up on Invention before posting, but that still doesn't answer the whole problem... there are several things that don't have a T1 BPO available on the market... So unless they release those BPOs again... we still have the same problem ____________________________________________________________________ Wrayth - "These are not the carebears you are looking for." Pirate - "These are not the carebears we are looking for."
Shabesa	Posted - 2006.10.02 22:40:00 - [18] If RE included named stuff and didn't have very high chance of process failing economy would went to pieces and if it had you'd end up with another lottery. Some things need to remain rare and expensive so you can go bananas when getting one. How Invention will pan out is down to numbers they come up with like RP cost and availability of process boosters. Until we see those discussion is futile.
Vistilantus Caldari Vistilantus Corp	Posted - 2006.10.02 22:52:00 - [19] CCP also promised we could be jove, they promise a lot of things, then change their mind due to balance issues. It is their game and i`m really sorry you can't make a hundred bajilion isk out of your unique items but life sucks Most of your post is a whine about how "YOU" got screwed over by CCP cause you thought you could become really rich due to having these uber unique items and making bp's to mass produce em. If CCP did everything they ever "considered" putting into the game, i`m sure there would be a lot of useless and game breaking stuff in there. If you no longer require your unique items, i`ll gladly take them off your hands for a reasonable sum. ___________________________________________________ ~Vistilantus
Tokka Konnair Rampage Eternal	Posted - 2006.10.02 23:21:00 - [20] Edited by: Tokka Konnair on 02/10/2006 23:24:45 NO This is going too far. You cannot complain about lost preparation because a feature changed during developement. That's utterly rediculous. Let's actualy look at what you're asking for. With the origonal Reverse Engineering concept you could take a special item only available from killing NPCs, such as a 'Scout' Artillery or a C5-L Emergency Shield Overload, and create a blueprint of it ... and you don't see why CCP decided this was a bad idea and redeveloped it? Quote: See on RE you could recreate anything you get, with Invention, well it not really invention itÆs recreation. Really whatÆs the difference from a buying a BPC of the T2 item instead of spinning your wheels to maybe get one through invention? One very important difference: the owner of the Tech II print isn't telling you how much to pay for it. Also many tech II prints are so painful to copy that it is simply not possible to get hold of copies.

Heikki Gallente Wreckless Abandon	Posted - 2006.10.03 00:00:00 - [21] Originally by: Athren Soulsteal 4 years wasted collecting .. unique items Don't really see how this differs from all those market speculators. You made some guesses about the future value of items, and spend resources (time&ISK), in order to gain advantage in the future. Sometimes those schemes pay off and you profit; sometimes you take a loss. Just remember to risk only the resources you feel you can afford to lose. Also, in case you feel that CCP owes you something: please restrain from advocating that idea. Saying "CCP must hold on things they 'promised'" is about the same as saying "CCP must never tell in advance what features they are planning". Reckon some companies take that approach, but it does sound a bit boring. -Lasse
Kaathar Rielspar Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.03 00:11:00 - [22] Originally by: F'nog Originally by: Wrayth Osu stuff All you need is a T1 BPC. Those are readily available everywhere in the game. And if you somehow can't get one, just buy the BPO and make copies. ...and i'd love to if only i could. i'll start off the list of t1 bpos that can't be bought on open market: medium hull repairer micro capacitor booster micro smartbombs of any flavor expanded cargohold (r&d agent seeded) shield amplifier (r&d agent seeded) prototype cloak (r&d agent seeded) i'm sure there a couple others that aren't on open market as well ____________________ Originally by: Jerick Ludhowe Originally by: Eximius Josari If BS Sized HACs would be overpowered, what are HACs? Overpriced Nos victims.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.10.03 00:30:00 - [23] Originally by: Athren Soulsteal I have been collecting items and special items to reverse for four years. I have 4 harvester drones in my ôto be reversedö can, where the heck am I going to get a BPC so I can invent the BP to build these. I have a prototype hull expander +30%, Heck I cant even find a normal expander BPO, there is no way I will ever find one for any of the 400+ prototype Items I have. What makes you think they would have ever allowed special items like those to be RE'd? what if you failed them? You'd have nothing then. RE sounds like what they're planning for T3. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile. Originally by: Oveur last 30 days had 2358 accounts banned.
F'nog Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.03 05:18:00 - [24] Originally by: Kaathar Rielspar Originally by: F'nog Originally by: Wrayth Osu stuff All you need is a T1 BPC. Those are readily available everywhere in the game. And if you somehow can't get one, just buy the BPO and make copies. ...and i'd love to if only i could. i'll start off the list of t1 bpos that can't be bought on open market: medium hull repairer micro capacitor booster micro smartbombs of any flavor expanded cargohold (r&d agent seeded) shield amplifier (r&d agent seeded) prototype cloak (r&d agent seeded) i'm sure there a couple others that aren't on open market as well Yes, some aren't available, but only the cloak has a T2 version in game, so invention wouldn't help you even if you had the BPOs. And micro items are pretty useless, so why bother? Originally by: DB Preacher The only time BoB's backs are to the wall is when backdoor bandit is in local.
Shayla Etherodyne	Posted - 2006.10.03 06:14:00 - [25] Originally by: F'nog Originally by: Kaathar Rielspar Originally by: F'nog Originally by: Wrayth Osu stuff All you need is a T1 BPC. Those are readily available everywhere in the game. And if you somehow can't get one, just buy the BPO and make copies. ...and i'd love to if only i could. i'll start off the list of t1 bpos that can't be bought on open market: medium hull repairer micro capacitor booster micro smartbombs of any flavor expanded cargohold (r&d agent seeded) shield amplifier (r&d agent seeded) prototype cloak (r&d agent seeded) i'm sure there a couple others that aren't on open market as well Yes, some aren't available, but only the cloak has a T2 version in game, so invention wouldn't help you even if you had the BPOs. And micro items are pretty useless, so why bother? Wrong F'nog. At least expanded cargohold (r&d agent seeded) shield amplifier (r&d agent seeded) prototype cloak (r&d agent seeded) have a player owned BPO, those were seeded by R&D agents. As the originals are very rare, and not available on the market, I think the owner will not sell copy of them, and do all the research by themselves. So we can say bye-bye to them. And honestly, with the procedure delined in the blog I feel we should be capable of researching named items. As we will receive a small run number and inefficent BPC we shold be at least allowed to research what we want and wat we can use (as we will need months to develope all the related skills, and so we will not be developing the skill to use all the Tech2 items)
Max Teranous Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.03 08:37:00 - [26] Originally by: Shayla Etherodyne And honestly, with the procedure delined in the blog I feel we should be capable of researching named items. As we will receive a small run number and inefficent BPC we shold be at least allowed to research what we want and wat we can use (as we will need months to develope all the related skills, and so we will not be developing the skill to use all the Tech2 items) In theory it would be nice, but having to develop BPC's of every named item in the game at least quadruples the number of BP's CCP would have to develop and check, and it would make rat loot pointless. T1 & T2 = player manufactured (by whatever method), named = loot drops. It's how it has always been. Max --------------------
F'nog Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.03 08:49:00 - [27] Originally by: Shayla Etherodyne Originally by: F'nog Originally by: Kaathar Rielspar Originally by: F'nog Originally by: Wrayth Osu stuff All you need is a T1 BPC. Those are readily available everywhere in the game. And if you somehow can't get one, just buy the BPO and make copies. ...and i'd love to if only i could. i'll start off the list of t1 bpos that can't be bought on open market: medium hull repairer micro capacitor booster micro smartbombs of any flavor expanded cargohold (r&d agent seeded) shield amplifier (r&d agent seeded) prototype cloak (r&d agent seeded) i'm sure there a couple others that aren't on open market as well Yes, some aren't available, but only the cloak has a T2 version in game, so invention wouldn't help you even if you had the BPOs. And micro items are pretty useless, so why bother? Wrong F'nog. At least expanded cargohold (r&d agent seeded) shield amplifier (r&d agent seeded) prototype cloak (r&d agent seeded) have a player owned BPO, those were seeded by R&D agents. As the originals are very rare, and not available on the market, I think the owner will not sell copy of them, and do all the research by themselves. So we can say bye-bye to them. And honestly, with the procedure delined in the blog I feel we should be capable of researching named items. As we will receive a small run number and inefficent BPC we shold be at least allowed to research what we want and wat we can use (as we will need months to develope all the related skills, and so we will not be developing the skill to use all the Tech2 items) No, I'm not wrong. You're misreading. Nowhere did I say that there is no T1 BPO. I agreed that some aren't available on the market. But that doesn't change the fact that only the Cloak has a T2 counterpart. Thus, it is the only one that matters for Invention. And as I have said elsewhere, the Proto should be seeded on the market. The rest are useless as far as Invention is concerned. In other matters, they are very important. But since they cannot be invented into T2, they're worthless for this argument. Originally by: DB Preacher The only time BoB's backs are to the wall is when backdoor bandit is in local.
Lord WarATron Amarr Out Siders Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.03 09:18:00 - [28] All I am going to say is BUY THAT 1000RUN Expanded cargo I BPC NOW! --- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Athren Soulsteal Gallente Orion Faction	Posted - 2006.10.03 13:55:00 - [29] Quote: NO This is going too far. You cannot complain about lost preparation because a feature changed during developement. That's utterly rediculous. How long have you played MMOs? I guarantee you that every serious mfg player in the game has been building up RP and training up all the science skills in anticipation for Kali. Lets say you are like any of the MFG players and spent the last 6 months getting everything from amarr starship to rocket science to lvl 3, you maxed out all your industry skills to lvl 5 and then CCP says ôwe have decided to drop all of the fighting and concentrate on to 90% (building, Mng and PVE) making it 100% of EVEö Your saying that all the PVP players can not complain. Yes it is exactly the same thing only on the other foot. Quote: With the original Reverse Engineering concept you could take a special item only available from killing NPCs, such as a 'Scout' Artillery or a C5-L Emergency Shield Overload, and create a blueprint of it ... and you don't see why CCP decided this was a bad idea and redeveloped it? No, again this is standard in any other MMO. Keep in mind that selling is just as much if not more PVP as shooting at people. Also itÆs not that simple, you have to get the item, and successfully produce it. That is the RVR in mfg, you risk loosing a million isk item and could end up with nothing or the ability to create your own. Quote: Sometimes those schemes pay off and you profit; sometimes you take a loss. Just remember to risk only the resources you feel you can afford to lose. QFT, that is the RVR, the thrill for the MFG player. Most of the posters seem to forget that there is a whole level of game above fighting at the camps that some of us are playing. Seriously you want a thrill, wait till your trying to fill a high value order and you see your competitor at the gate headed to fill the same order. Both of you racing those last few systems neck to neck hoping he got greedy and rigged more for space than speed. Counting the seconds as you dock, knowing that he is just seconds behind you, and trying not to fumble on the menus so your sell order goes in first. I played the fighting game for years, been podded by the best and worst of them and none of that matches the thrill of just beating out your competitor on a sale. Quote: It is their game and i`m really sorry you can't make a hundred bajilion isk out of your unique items but life sucks It not about making money, I have over 800 BPOs I have collected since gold including all of the ships to BS class so Invention will not affect my ability to make ISK. ItÆs about being able to create something no one else in the game can. My problem with invention is that according to the blog you will not be able to invent anything different than any other player. Now you will be able to rig it differently but that does no good to a mass producer. Quote: Think about the people that did fight you fairly. Think.... that were honorable and helped you out in times of need. Those are the real heroes of EVE. I wish I could fit all the Quote
Missie Moomingirl	Posted - 2006.10.03 14:06:00 - [30] Hate to break it to you, but the science skills such as rocket science all to 3 takes merely a week or two, you should be getting them all to five, like some of us.



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