Time will tell how "vulnerable" these POCO's will be. but given the HP's, reinforcement timers and other factors like access timers, I don't see a ton of people making a habit of banging on these things. Maybe I am wrong.

Maybe somebody can check my math on something...

I've been flying a spreadsheet for some time, and based on Jita prices as of 5 hours ago it tells me that PI in high-sec is still pretty darned profitable. My extractor->P1 worlds (Oxygen and Plasmoids -- yes I know this wasn't optimum for hi-sec even pre-patch but I'm lazy) are actually about 5-10% more profitable than before. P3->P4 looks incredibly profitable, with one Sterile Conduits processor supposedly profiting 1.7M per hour even if you use instant buy and sell, and all P4->P5 if you get inputs with buy orders rather than instant.

Factory worlds for P0->P1 are a waste, but that was usually the case anyway. P1->P2 and P2->P3 definitely took a hit with the patch, but are still mostly profitable if you buy and sell with market orders rather than instant, even allowing for some slop in getting a good price. Some are still profitable even with instant trades (Vital Agent: 13K per hour per processor with instants, 59K with patience).

My spreadsheet bases price on reasonable quantities available, includes broker fees for market orders, includes sales tax, includes export cost, includes import cost, and assumes that the buy/sell spread will narrow by 10% before market orders are actually filled.

Supposedly doing diversified P3->P4 in hi-sec would net me 5-15M ISK per hour per planet. This seems absurd, and not consistent with the complaints about new taxes. What am I missing? Is this just a blip in the market, soon to be "fixed" by rising P3 costs?

Let me pause the goonrambling for a moment: You DO realize that putting it at 100% would be backwards to making it an alliance cash cow, right? I know it's counter intuitive, but yeah, the money isn't made on site.


I've met mittani, I know he's smarter then this guy, and I know that if he figures that his existing cash cow is on the way out, that he needs to find, or create, a new one.

Mittani's definitely not going to overlook a potential revenue stream (and POCOs with modest tax rates are a great passive revenue stream like ratting taxes) but it simply isn't relevant enough to have been part of some ridiculous conspiracy theory year long push by the entire alliance to get it put into place to finally beat those dastardly empire geniuses with the PI.

All the people whose competition the alliance actually cares about live in 0.0 too, with the same relative advantage.

Not one of them has this advantage on the scale that goons do. And, sure, all the nullsec alliances have the same advantage.. now.

Sorry, the only thing I see this as is an attempt to squeeze the invention genie back into the lamp by CCP, because it's taken too much isk from the wallets of major alliances, and I've heard too many of you, goons included, whine for the old days when T2 production was very much an 'Alliance Only' Club.

I hate to say this, but long experience in this game leaves me with the impression of a fox telling chickens 'It's safe. Trust me! Would I lie?'

It won't effect datacores at all, which being a 100% passive isk source are the actual invention genie that a nerf would need to be aimed at.

Not one of them has this advantage on the scale that goons do. And, sure, all the nullsec alliances have the same advantage.. now.

The cost process has just started to run. I use all of my PI for T2 production. My costs for PI have gone up at least five fold maybe more. The T2 on the market right now does not reflect this increase. So I hauled a production run to a market hub but did not put anything up. My best guess is that once a lot of the stored PI is exhausted ALL T2 products will jump in price by quite a lot but the isk generation in game has not changed at all.
Maybe in a month or so we will see the null alliances dominating the market as they did when T2 bpos were released. It may not be quite the cartel it was but similar to rare moon materials today. Sucks if you are a newer player, prices go way up but income stays the same. It won't matter much if you are a large corp drone but if you have actually buy your ships well good luck you are going to need it.

Datacores are not an ISK source. They fall into the same bucket as mineral mining, ice mining and loot drops. They only have value because other players will pay for them, there are no NPCs that will buy your datacores so no way to move ISK out of a NPC wallet into your wallet.

Wait, trash-talking in local generates PI now? Who knew?

The reason that goons are getting the blame is partially due to some things being said by EoG and by being the most prominent supporters of it, who also conveniently stand to make the most isk off high sec getting taxed.

I still don't understand why you think goons stand to make the most isk off the PI tax. I would be honestly shocked if any 0.0 alliance (other than PL, maybe TEST) has less investment in PI than we do.

Our membership finds it boring and **** and mostly don't bother with it, in part because it is boring and ****, also in part because you make more money off running complexes and that uses PvP skills that we generally want to train to have fun, rather than requiring that you spend a couple weeks training otherwise useless PI skills to run a robotics farm, or whatever ends up being the most profitable design once prices stabilize.

If anyone stands to gain the most it's probably the Russians.

Fastjack, according to certain sources within your own alliance, the brass feel that moon goo, goonswarms primary source of alliance income, will be nerfed.

Since goons currently hold one of the largest nullsec empires, their ability to turn that simple fact into a unstoppable economic juggernaut cannot be dismissed. Given the number of planets you control, there is a very real possibility, given the relative disunity and disinterest of your opposition, that goonswarm could dictate PI prices, and, from there, T2 prices as a whole, through the simple expedient of flooding the market to drive competitors out of business.

Alliances won't make money off taxing poco's. They will make money by not having to pay *any* tax on their poco's.

Stop being dense.

Cygnet, grownups are talking. Fastjack explained quite nicely why null sec PI isn't going to be a windfall for Goons (at least isk-wise, tear-wise might be a different story).

Without turning this into yet another goon thread.
Cygnet, I think you're overestimating goons interest in this. PI is incredibly boring, nothing goes boom, and while it seems that there may indeed be 'tears to be had', they aren't really in the style that goons enjoy.

Tasko, fastjack did nothing of the sort. He just sat there and misrepresented what I said, and then tried to dodge the subject by attacking my knowledge of 0.0. You know, the basic way to try an dodge an issue when you know real answers would hang you out to dry? Just counting the systems goons claim sov in doesn't give you the whole picture, which is what I've been talking about. Goons project power far beyond that.

However you seem to be under the mistaken assumptions that

1) a single character can PI on hundreds of planets somehow to take advantage of all our space, or possibly that there is a cap on how many people can PI a single planet
2) we're the biggest alliance in 0.0
3) we're the richest alliance in 0.0
4) we could somehow insulate ourselves from the impact of PI taxes on T2 production despite nullsec and WH pvp being the consumer base for T2 products, possibly out of a mistaken belief that we build all our own modules rather than buying most of them in Jita the same as everyone else

None of these are true.

Alliances won't make money off taxing poco's. They will make money by not having to pay *any* tax on their poco's.

Stop being dense.

If this wasn't a big moneymaker for them, then goons wouldn't turn up in every thread about it attacking the posters that dislike the current approach. After all, no other alliance is doing so on such a scale and with such diligence, so goons must have an angle. You don't work it this hard without a reason