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Swanky nutjob
The Scope Gallente Federation
10
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Posted - 2015.02.11 13:14:17 -
[1] - Quote
So Mr Rise, Ishtars are a scourge on the current fleet warfare ship meta. They are the new Drake. What are you going to do about rebalancing them (and Tengus and Bombers)?
P.S. I know you commentors will say "well you can bomb the drones" etc. However, that doesn't change the fact the most fleet fights in null comprise of MWD Ishtars, the AB Tengu and the bomber, everything else is utterly irrelevant. All of this in turn is pretty boring. A sad state of affairs all round. |
BuckStrider
Nano-Tech Experiments
517
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Posted - 2015.02.11 14:13:25 -
[2] - Quote
I was going to say you can shoot the bombs,,,,but whatever.
Mine smart. Mine safe. Purchase your mining permit today...... www.minerbumping.com
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Kaelynne Rose
WTB Somalians
32
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Posted - 2015.02.11 14:18:11 -
[3] - Quote
Remove either bandwidth or sentry drone bonus from hull.
Boom fixed. Wtf is taking years to figure this out? Maybe they should hire me like they did rize and fozzy. Id have balances errry 6 weeks like they promised |
Swanky nutjob
The Scope Gallente Federation
10
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Posted - 2015.02.11 14:28:37 -
[4] - Quote
Yet to be convinced hiring players was a good idea. Tiercide hasn't worked outside of small gangs. Pheobe actually made the game more static and avoided tackling the elephant in the room. The object shouldn't be to nerf the Ishtar into something useless, or bombers for that matter but to open up the possibility of creative fleets again by levelling them off. |
Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
835
|
Posted - 2015.02.11 14:38:23 -
[5] - Quote
Minmatar need more nerfs and than blatantly buff everything else at the same time that will fix things for years to come. |
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
897
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Posted - 2015.02.11 14:39:31 -
[6] - Quote
Ishtar's are fine L2P.......
BAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHA
I couldn't even get through that straight faced.
Not today spaghetti.
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Ria Nieyli
Alexylva Paradox Low-Class
31844
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Posted - 2015.02.11 14:41:58 -
[7] - Quote
I think the main problem that the Ishtar faces is that it's good for PvP and PvE at the same time. There needs to be some differentiation between both areas, but making that happen would be rather tricky.
Why do bad threads happen to good people?
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Arla Sarain
284
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Posted - 2015.02.11 14:44:29 -
[8] - Quote
I don't understand...
You mean other ships exist for reasons other than to lose? They are not simply a ludicrous trap, intended to teach players the hard lesson of the EVE Online universe by getting local chat blobbed about how they got rekt, then advised to get the right ship for the right application when consulting on the forums?
Blasphemy. L2P and fly a real PVP ship like the rest |
Elenahina
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
73
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Posted - 2015.02.11 14:50:47 -
[9] - Quote
Ria Nieyli wrote:I think the main problem that the Ishtar faces is that it's good for PvP and PvE at the same time. There needs to be some differentiation between both areas, but making that happen would be rather tricky.
Actually there needs to be less differentiation, so that PvErs will actually feel like they can fight if they need to, but that's really beside the point.
The easiest fix is: 1) Lower Heavy Drone bandwidth to 20. 2) Cap the bandwidth on anything smaller than a battleship at 100.
Ishtars can still use Sentries if they want, but only at 80% of today's DPS, and there's no need to adjust the ship itself.
Agony Unleashed is Recruiting - Small Gang PvP in Null Sec
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Ria Nieyli
Alexylva Paradox Low-Class
31852
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Posted - 2015.02.11 14:57:40 -
[10] - Quote
Elenahina wrote:Ria Nieyli wrote:I think the main problem that the Ishtar faces is that it's good for PvP and PvE at the same time. There needs to be some differentiation between both areas, but making that happen would be rather tricky. Actually there needs to be less differentiation, so that PvErs will actually feel like they can fight if they need to, but that's really beside the point. The easiest fix is: 1) Lower Heavy Drone bandwidth to 20. 2) Cap the bandwidth on anything smaller than a battleship at 100. Ishtars can still use Sentries if they want, but only at 80% of today's DPS, and there's no need to adjust the ship itself.
PvE fits are largely different from PvP ones, accomplishing what you suggest would be downright impossible in most cases.
Why do bad threads happen to good people?
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Soldarius
Kosher Nostra The 99 Percent
1084
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Posted - 2015.02.11 14:58:19 -
[11] - Quote
Increasing the bandwidth of Sentries would make it impossible to field 5 of them on a cruiser. Then buff the bandwidth of any ship on which they are intended to be fielded. Skills would still limit ships to 5 of any kind of drone. Only caps with DCUs could field more. Problem solved.
http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
738
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Posted - 2015.02.11 15:06:38 -
[12] - Quote
Soldarius wrote:Increasing the bandwidth of Sentries would make it impossible to field 5 of them on a cruiser. Then buff the bandwidth of any ship on which they are intended to be fielded. Skills would still limit ships to 5 of any kind of drone. Only caps with DCUs could field more. Problem solved.
Won't work well as you hope due to Geckos. If that is the route (targetting the bandwidth), they have to reduce the non-BS tier, not buff it.
As much as I'd LOVE more geckos out a rattler, that'd probably be pretty broken. |
Yarda Black
Militaris Industries Northern Coalition.
557
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Posted - 2015.02.11 15:08:53 -
[13] - Quote
The annoying thing about sentry using droneboats is that their dps is at a different spot than the ship itself. So you either mitigate the dronedamage and let the droneboat slip away, or you find a way to tank the dps long enough to burn through the controlling ship. I find this problem less evident with other drones because they will follow you around while you go after your target. So you can actually kill them while getting close to your victim. The delay between targets due to flight-time also helps.
There's counters tho. Bombing, smartbombing, shooting the things etc. Pretty complicated to do, but you can effectively remove a droneboats guns.
I understand I'm not supposed to respond because this message isn't adressed to me, but OP's the one who put it in GD instead of a PM to CCP Rise.
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Gawain Edmond
I aint payin npc tax Rock Paper Lasers
173
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Posted - 2015.02.11 15:13:32 -
[14] - Quote
i must admit it's getting better since all the fights are made up of 3 ships that's 3 times better than it used to be. |
Swanky nutjob
The Scope Gallente Federation
10
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Posted - 2015.02.11 15:37:28 -
[15] - Quote
Sexy Cakes wrote:Ishtar's are fine L2P.......
BAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHA
I couldn't even get through that straight faced.
Learn to be relevant. See I can post a useless comment as well.
Arla Sarain wrote:I don't understand...
You mean other ships exist for reasons other than to lose? They are not simply a ludicrous trap, intended to teach players the hard lesson of the EVE Online universe by getting local chat blobbed about how they got rekt, then advised to get the right ship for the right application when consulting on the forums?
Blasphemy. L2P and fly a real PVP ship like the rest
See this doesn't help, it's not constructive and doesn't answer any problems. Irrespective of you view that everyone should be in an ~Elite PVP~ group like you, the problem persists that fleet warfare today is dominated by 2 ships and 1 class of ship.
So you think this is fine because your little low sec irrelevant PVP activities are OK then?
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Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
1363
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Posted - 2015.02.11 16:03:56 -
[16] - Quote
The only change the Ishtar needs is a smaller drone bay. Gallente drone boats typically have larger bandwidths and smaller drone bays compared to Amarr drone boats. The Ishtar has the best of both worlds. The VNI and Eos only have 200m3 and 250m3 respectively. Why does the Ishtar get 375m3?
Limit it's drone bay, and killing it's drones suddenly becomes a much more viable tactic, nor can the same fit be used equally effectively for sniping or brawling. Problem solved.
My Many Misadventures
Reading Comprehension: so important it deserves it's own skillbook.
I seek to create content, not become content.
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Elenahina
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
73
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Posted - 2015.02.11 16:29:08 -
[17] - Quote
Ria Nieyli wrote: PvE fits are largely different from PvP ones
That is, as the say, the problem I was referring to.
I wouldn't be impossible to bring them closer together, but it would require CCP to do a major overhaul on the PVE content in the game. Specifically how the shooty parts work.
Agony Unleashed is Recruiting - Small Gang PvP in Null Sec
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Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
731
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Posted - 2015.02.11 16:36:07 -
[18] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Soldarius wrote:Increasing the bandwidth of Sentries would make it impossible to field 5 of them on a cruiser. Then buff the bandwidth of any ship on which they are intended to be fielded. Skills would still limit ships to 5 of any kind of drone. Only caps with DCUs could field more. Problem solved. Won't work well as you hope due to Geckos. If that is the route (targetting the bandwidth), they have to reduce the non-BS tier, not buff it. As much as I'd LOVE more geckos out a rattler, that'd probably be pretty broken. Reduce gecko damage so it is not a bad ass Omni-chainsaw or up their bandwidth a smidge, problem solved. Ships should at most be fielding one, not two and you would see less kvetching since they can be destroyed so easily. Was a dumb idea anyway, Omni-damage weapon capable of firing all at once where as all other weapons are firing one or two damage types, but surprisingly EVE applies all 4 damage types at once if its a gecko even when Omni-tanked cause the system isn't smart enough to selectively decided the most effective damage type but other weapons only fire their single or dual damage types leaving out the other possible damage two types even if they are the weaker ones....its still 4 types of damage applied at once! |
Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
667
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Posted - 2015.02.11 17:14:06 -
[19] - Quote
The issue with the Ishtar is really that it has far more bonuses than any other ship. Remove either the heavy drone mwd or tracking bonus and the sentry optimal or tracking bonus and it would be a perfectly balanced ship.
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Aplysia Vejun
The Scope Gallente Federation
13
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Posted - 2015.02.11 17:25:32 -
[20] - Quote
Baali Tekitsu wrote:The issue with the Ishtar is really that it has far more bonuses than any other ship. That is just not true. |
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1573
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Posted - 2015.02.11 17:29:37 -
[21] - Quote
Elenahina wrote:Ria Nieyli wrote:I think the main problem that the Ishtar faces is that it's good for PvP and PvE at the same time. There needs to be some differentiation between both areas, but making that happen would be rather tricky. Actually there needs to be less differentiation, so that PvErs will actually feel like they can fight if they need to, but that's really beside the point. The easiest fix is: 1) Lower Heavy Drone bandwidth to 20. 2) Cap the bandwidth on anything smaller than a battleship at 100. Ishtars can still use Sentries if they want, but only at 80% of today's DPS, and there's no need to adjust the ship itself.
People will bring more ishtar and you are back at square one... |
Amyclas Amatin
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
602
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Posted - 2015.02.11 18:13:53 -
[22] - Quote
Swanky nutjob wrote:So Mr Rise, Ishtars are a scourge on the current fleet warfare ship meta. They are the new Drake. What are you going to do about rebalancing them (and Tengus and Bombers)?
P.S. I know you commentors will say "well you can bomb the drones" etc. However, that doesn't change the fact the most fleet fights in null comprise of MWD Ishtars, the AB Tengu and the bomber, everything else is utterly irrelevant. All of this in turn is pretty boring. A sad state of affairs all round.
So which doctrine ship would you rather be blobbed with?
Something will replace it as the ship of the line, it will be optimized to engage a wide variety of targets or for whatever job the blocs desire, and then used en-masse.
For more information on the New Order of High-Sec, please visit: http://www.minerbumping.com/
Remember that whenever you have a bad day in EVE, the correct reponse is "Thank you CCP, may I please have another?"
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Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
667
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Posted - 2015.02.11 19:09:21 -
[23] - Quote
Aplysia Vejun wrote:Baali Tekitsu wrote:The issue with the Ishtar is really that it has far more bonuses than any other ship. That is just not true. Yes it is. The equivalent would be the deimos having a resist and rep bonus on the gallente ship skill and a tracking and falloff bonus on the HAC skill.
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Seven Koskanaiken
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
1409
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Posted - 2015.02.11 19:21:21 -
[24] - Quote
Amyclas Amatin wrote:Swanky nutjob wrote:So Mr Rise, Ishtars are a scourge on the current fleet warfare ship meta. They are the new Drake. What are you going to do about rebalancing them (and Tengus and Bombers)?
P.S. I know you commentors will say "well you can bomb the drones" etc. However, that doesn't change the fact the most fleet fights in null comprise of MWD Ishtars, the AB Tengu and the bomber, everything else is utterly irrelevant. All of this in turn is pretty boring. A sad state of affairs all round. So which doctrine ship would you rather be blobbed with? Something will replace it as the ship of the line, it will be optimized to engage a wide variety of targets or for whatever job the blocs desire, and then used en-masse.
A change is as good as a rest. |
Lyra Gerie
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
43
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Posted - 2015.02.11 19:36:18 -
[25] - Quote
If it's taking as long as it is to get a fix its likely because of either plans they have for the future, or another meta that could be even worse then the current with Ishtars, tengus and bombers.
Tengus are an easy answer, they along with other T3 cruisers are getting a rebalance soon so obviously they will be fixed with that. Bombers got a mini fix in terms of not being able to be ISboxed anymore. I can't say for certain what is holding up the Ishtar rebalance but overall I would love to see them lose the sentry bonus for maybe another heavy bonus. Gallente is a brawler race anyways and there would be much less of a problem with Ishtars if their main weapon was heavy drones rather then sentry.
Further this would shift the sentry meta to domis and they actually have draw backs compared to what the Ishtar currently provides. |
Swanky nutjob
The Scope Gallente Federation
10
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Posted - 2015.02.11 19:56:25 -
[26] - Quote
Amyclas Amatin wrote:Swanky nutjob wrote:So Mr Rise, Ishtars are a scourge on the current fleet warfare ship meta. They are the new Drake. What are you going to do about rebalancing them (and Tengus and Bombers)?
P.S. I know you commentors will say "well you can bomb the drones" etc. However, that doesn't change the fact the most fleet fights in null comprise of MWD Ishtars, the AB Tengu and the bomber, everything else is utterly irrelevant. All of this in turn is pretty boring. A sad state of affairs all round. So which doctrine ship would you rather be blobbed with? Something will replace it as the ship of the line, it will be optimized to engage a wide variety of targets or for whatever job the blocs desire, and then used en-masse.
Others will fill various purposes but if these three get balanced you'll see more doctrine variations come back. Look at the GSF special interest groups for instance. A year or so ago EG and SV were using 6 or 7 different doctrines regularly. HBC had - god forbid - BC doctrines. People were even considering Eagle fleet. Battleships could be seen in doctrines. You can have optimised fleets but there should be no magic bullet. There is after all a reason why everyone uses throw away Ishtar fleets. |
Amyclas Amatin
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
602
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Posted - 2015.02.11 20:21:28 -
[27] - Quote
Swanky nutjob wrote:Amyclas Amatin wrote:Swanky nutjob wrote:So Mr Rise, Ishtars are a scourge on the current fleet warfare ship meta. They are the new Drake. What are you going to do about rebalancing them (and Tengus and Bombers)?
P.S. I know you commentors will say "well you can bomb the drones" etc. However, that doesn't change the fact the most fleet fights in null comprise of MWD Ishtars, the AB Tengu and the bomber, everything else is utterly irrelevant. All of this in turn is pretty boring. A sad state of affairs all round. So which doctrine ship would you rather be blobbed with? Something will replace it as the ship of the line, it will be optimized to engage a wide variety of targets or for whatever job the blocs desire, and then used en-masse. Others will fill various purposes but if these three get balanced you'll see more doctrine variations come back. Look at the GSF special interest groups for instance. A year or so ago EG and SV were using 6 or 7 different doctrines regularly. HBC had - god forbid - BC doctrines. People were even considering Eagle fleet. Battleships could be seen in doctrines. You can have optimised fleets but there should be no magic bullet. There is after all a reason why everyone uses throw away Ishtar fleets.
And then GSF uses ishtars as a main doctrine, and we finally realize how "unbalanced" they are. Grr goon planners. We don't care how fun a doctrine is, as long as it works, we'll abuse it.
The same goes with any future flavour of the month that will get nerfed the moment we find something effective enough to use en-masse.
For more information on the New Order of High-Sec, please visit: http://www.minerbumping.com/
Remember that whenever you have a bad day in EVE, the correct reponse is "Thank you CCP, may I please have another?"
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Phoenix Jones
Isogen 5
1057
|
Posted - 2015.02.11 20:47:11 -
[28] - Quote
Elenahina wrote:Ria Nieyli wrote:I think the main problem that the Ishtar faces is that it's good for PvP and PvE at the same time. There needs to be some differentiation between both areas, but making that happen would be rather tricky. Actually there needs to be less differentiation, so that PvErs will actually feel like they can fight if they need to, but that's really beside the point. The easiest fix is: 1) Lower Heavy Drone bandwidth to 20. 2) Cap the bandwidth on anything smaller than a battleship at 100. Ishtars can still use Sentries if they want, but only at 80% of today's DPS, and there's no need to adjust the ship itself.
I've been screaming this for a few months already.
Reduce heavy drones down to 20 bandwidth, reduce the drone bay size to 225. Reduce the max bandwidth of the navy vexor and Ishtar from 125 to 100. They lose 20% of their dps using sentries but maintain all of their dps when using heavies.
This also affects a few other ships. Vexor and prophecy both get a different max dps load out. The proteus, stratios, myrmidon all get to use 5 heavy drones vs the 4 currently.
The navy vex and ishtar take a nerf in solely one aspect of fighting, but maintain their damage potential in other methods of drone fighting (it puts the ship and drones at more risk). You can still drone up the ishtar, but now you are limited by capacity of drones.
That's a adjustment.
Yaay!!!!
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Elenahina
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
80
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Posted - 2015.02.11 20:49:08 -
[29] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Elenahina wrote:Ria Nieyli wrote:I think the main problem that the Ishtar faces is that it's good for PvP and PvE at the same time. There needs to be some differentiation between both areas, but making that happen would be rather tricky. Actually there needs to be less differentiation, so that PvErs will actually feel like they can fight if they need to, but that's really beside the point. The easiest fix is: 1) Lower Heavy Drone bandwidth to 20. 2) Cap the bandwidth on anything smaller than a battleship at 100. Ishtars can still use Sentries if they want, but only at 80% of today's DPS, and there's no need to adjust the ship itself. People will bring more ishtar and you are back at square one...
That's true of whatever ship is the FOTM. It's not limited to the Ishtar.
Agony Unleashed is Recruiting - Small Gang PvP in Null Sec
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Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
41
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Posted - 2015.02.11 22:07:28 -
[30] - Quote
The problem not with bandwidth the problem with brainwidth
Some people really need to buff their brainwidth.
So we have an issue with Ishtar or Sentry? Can't be both at the same time. |
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