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Mr Bright
untaught THE H0RDE
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Posted - 2006.10.05 12:12:00 -
[1]
Seeing as we are getting closer and closer to the launch of Kali - I am getting more and more anxious about the Maelstrom and its shield boost bonus. It seems taht the silence confirms that the bonus will go in as planned, giving it the most gimped bonus possible for fleet ops (which is what its intended role is as far as I know).
What I would like to know is, if its being reconsidered - and if not, why its getting a bonus that Tuxford himself have said was to "bad" for the caldari so was changed for a 5% res to all. (Dev Blog regarding Moa)
So, I would ask that we may be updated on the Maelstroms intended role and how the bonusses fits with that role.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.05 12:18:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 05/10/2006 12:23:40 I think Tuxford posted in one of his blogs that the shield boost bonus might not be the best idea for a fleet sniper. Then again, I might remember it wrong since it was ages since he said anything about this ship.
Found it in his latest blog (2 months ago):
Originally by: Tuxford ship blog 2
Then again shield boost bonus isn't really terribly effective in fleets where you have potentially a lot of ships firing at you and damage output exceeds your tank's absorption by a wide margin. That's basically the reasoning for changing the Moa's shield boost bonus to resistance bonus originally.
As for its role, the blog says:
Originally by: Tuxford ship blog 2
"Maelstrom med slots, the argument I've seen so far is that it needs at least 3 slots for speed mod, webbie and a scrambler, anything less than 4 slots is too little to tank with. I recognize that logic but we intend the Maelstrom to be a shield tanking artillery boat, relying on other ships to tackle for you. "
So I wouldnt expect this ship to get many medium slots like people are hoping for.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.10.05 12:35:00 -
[3]
quite curious too... and not only about the bonus, but even about mid slot...
even for an arty (fleet) platform 6 mids are not much to fit a good tank... as minnie have also a general poor sensor range it will need 2-3 sensor booster, eventually a tracking comp and not much else to fit a tank... not to say a shield booster :P
maybe if the ship is supposed to be an arty platform a bonus to shield hps can be more fitting...
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Tommy Vercetti
The Nexus Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.05 12:44:00 -
[4]
Yeah 5 mids would be ok if you didnt need 3-4 mods to hit something at fleet range. Why even bother saying shield tanker, just call it arty platform with a shield extender.
--------------------------------------------------- Tommy Vercetti A&E Director The Nexus Syndicate --------------------------------------------------- |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.05 12:45:00 -
[5]
Shield boosting is useless in fleets and making a artillery shield boosting boat is a mistake.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Soyemia
Minmatar Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.10.05 12:46:00 -
[6]
U need 4 med slots for tempest in fleet, 2 sensB 2 tracking comps, so, where's tank? Or what Tux thinks again? We really meed information.
Proud member of fix. Hated on finnish channel.
Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty - Cortes |
Mr Bright
untaught THE H0RDE
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Posted - 2006.10.05 12:59:00 -
[7]
Well, it all depends on what percieved role CCP have envisioned for the Mealstrom.
As for the bonus I have several suggestion:
* A straight HP bonus 7.5% or 10% per level - Would mean its usable in fleet ops - Would make it different from Caldari - Have a certain "hit and Run" mentality (flee when shield is depleted)
* Bonus to optimal - Would make it into a "true" sniper (not to evil since 1400 got low optimal)
* Bonus to tracking - Even at 10% per level a tachyon still out tracks a 1400 - Would be usefull for autocannons as well
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Nocturnal Avenger
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Posted - 2006.10.06 09:35:00 -
[8]
Matari ships are expected to perform poorly and flown by brave men :p
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Tommy Vercetti
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.10.06 09:43:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Nocturnal Avenger Matari ships are expected to perform poorly and flown by brave men :p
ROFL. Yes, you have a point there
Originally by: "Murukan"
It's like really you ******* ***, it also out damages my tempest so maybe i shouldn't saunter up to the thron at 2km like i'm ready to **** it's ****.
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Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.06 09:55:00 -
[10]
Like flying a Tupolev instead of a Boeing or Airbus..
(No offense to the Russians on this board!)
Forsch Defender of the empire
More love for side factions! |
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Akkarin Pagan
Minmatar Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2006.10.06 10:08:00 -
[11]
I look at the Maelstrom as a big assed Cyclone. As I size up I'd expect 6 medslots, and 5 low slots (like the Raven or a reverse Tempest).
I believe that the boost bonus that Minmatar ships get is because the guns don't use cap. On a Moa, where your rails are draining cap, as is your shield booster, it is very easy to run out of cap and have no guns and no tank. With the Cyclone and the Maelstrom, this isn't a problem. That said, I've only ever been called primamry twice in a Cyclone, and in both cases I was on my own. That said the Maelstrom is a bigger target, and should be more feared than a Cyclone.
Don't forget that the Raven only gets bonuses to its' missiles but can still tank like a mofo! With the meds and highs taken up with tank and gank, how about signal amps in the lows to increase your targeting range (not as effective as sensor boosters, but cap free!).
I do think it will be difficult to tell how well any tier 3 BS will work without being able to fly them though. Untill they are actually available to the general EVE community, all we have is slightly informed speculation. We have nothing concrete on any of their stats just the bonuses. If the Maelstrom comes with 12k shields as standard (unlikeley) then the lack of many medslots for tanking becomes less of a problem, and with the tier 2 BS all getting 20 slots, we should have at least that to play with on the new ships, so if Tux only gives the Maelstrom 5 medslots, it's probably going to get 6 lows for example, more than enough for an armour tank if that is the route you wish to take.
Anyway, I'm sure I had a point somewhere, but I seem to have lost it
Akkarin
Linkage
<3 - Immy
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Christopher Multsanti
Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed
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Posted - 2006.10.06 10:15:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 05/10/2006 12:23:40 I think Tuxford posted in one of his blogs that the shield boost bonus might not be the best idea for a fleet sniper. Then again, I might remember it wrong since it was ages since he said anything about this ship.
Found it in his latest blog (2 months ago):
Originally by: Tuxford ship blog 2
Then again shield boost bonus isn't really terribly effective in fleets where you have potentially a lot of ships firing at you and damage output exceeds your tank's absorption by a wide margin. That's basically the reasoning for changing the Moa's shield boost bonus to resistance bonus originally.
As for its role, the blog says:
Originally by: Tuxford ship blog 2
"Maelstrom med slots, the argument I've seen so far is that it needs at least 3 slots for speed mod, webbie and a scrambler, anything less than 4 slots is too little to tank with. I recognize that logic but we intend the Maelstrom to be a shield tanking artillery boat, relying on other ships to tackle for you. "
So I wouldnt expect this ship to get many medium slots like people are hoping for.
So the ship is intended to be a long range fleet ship that shield tanks?
From those comments it looks as though its going to get around 4-5 med slots? Which means you are going to be left with 5-6 low slots to play with and since the stacking nerf you cannot fill them with all damage mods.
So in the end people using this ship for fleets will just armour plate the low slots and fit sensor boosters and tracking enhancers in the mids.
Originally by: Bob Pilot I couldn't careless if BoB pilots log in belts
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.06 10:20:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Christopher Multsanti
So in the end people using this ship for fleets will just armour plate the low slots and fit sensor boosters and tracking enhancers in the mids.
I think so too, and since they wont be using the shield boosting bonus, they might as well be using the Tempest. This ship is a bad idea... shield boosting fleet ship that requires tracking computers and sensor boosters, but wont have slots for both... :(
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation
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Posted - 2006.10.06 10:21:00 -
[14]
Change the +7.5% shield boost amount bonus to +10% shield hit point capacity bonus. Problem... mostly... solved.
50% more hit points. 50% more effective shield extenders. 50% longer survivability in battle. 50% longer time to haul that fat arse around it's central gravity and get the heck out. 100% less capacitor need to utilize the ship bonus.
... 50% happier Pottsey ;) - Three years old |
Christopher Multsanti
Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed
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Posted - 2006.10.06 10:28:00 -
[15]
Its a nice idea, but it sort of dosent change the fact fleet set up require at least 2 sensor boosters (3 if you using a tempest with T2 ammo).
Also in fleet battles your shield dropping is nice pointer to how fast your going down, giving you time to make you have your warp out ready once your armour is almost gone.
For shield tanked BS this wont be the case, but I guess the second point is a minor one.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.06 10:34:00 -
[16]
I seriously dont understand why Tuxford cant give the minmatar a fast, fun ship. Minnies should have gotten the Hyperion and all would have been well. Gallente already have the megathron and the dominix, the most popular pvp battleships in the game. He had the chance to make something good for the minmatar, to play on their strengths of speed and agility, and fast reactions.
But he made another fleet sniper....sorry Tux, but im not happy. And I dont think you'll prove us whiners wrong when the ship shows up.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2006.10.06 10:39:00 -
[17]
Altering the bonus won't work, as it's flawed in concept. One of Caldari's purviews is shield resistances. One of Amarr's is armour resistances. Why cross Minmatar over with another race? Give us a gunship with dmg and tracking, or dmg and range, and be done with it. We're not good at much because our HP, Cap, and such doesn't let us be. But that's fine, we survive. Don't mess that all up by giving us the ultimate hybrid ship that's a jack of no trades and a master of none.
And yes, I did mean to say 'no' and not 'all'.
Scrapheap Challenge Forums - All the cool kids are doing it!
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Tar om
Minmatar Octavian Vanguard RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.06 11:17:00 -
[18]
Given that shield tanking is useless in fleet battles, the Tempest is the second best fleet sniper BS, and the Maelstrom will use 8x1400II for the same damage at 33% extra cost in modules - I can't see the point in this ship. -- We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net
"The belief in the possibility of a short decisive war appears to be one of the most ancient and dangerous of human illusions." |
Rorix Whitecloud
Caldari Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.06 11:48:00 -
[19]
I dont really understand where you guys' concept of Melstrom being a fleet ship came from... maybe the ROF bonus... but otherwise... O_o to me, the bonuses seems to be more suited as a small gang type AC boat... this way, it make sense for it to tank, and have really fast firing guns in a small gang, where it wont be popped in one volley.
~I don't remember. That's the second thing they teach you. |
Christopher Multsanti
Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed
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Posted - 2006.10.06 12:04:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Rorix Whitecloud I dont really understand where you guys' concept of Melstrom being a fleet ship came from... maybe the ROF bonus... but otherwise... O_o to me, the bonuses seems to be more suited as a small gang type AC boat... this way, it make sense for it to tank, and have really fast firing guns in a small gang, where it wont be popped in one volley.
Originally by: Tuxford ship blog 2
"I recognize that logic but we intend the Maelstrom to be a shield tanking artillery boat, relying on other ships to tackle for you. "
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.06 12:35:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Rorix Whitecloud I dont really understand where you guys' concept of Melstrom being a fleet ship came from... maybe the ROF bonus... but otherwise... O_o to me, the bonuses seems to be more suited as a small gang type AC boat... this way, it make sense for it to tank, and have really fast firing guns in a small gang, where it wont be popped in one volley.
Just another thing that is pretty bad design with this ship. Its a artillery platform with a ROF bonus. Why not a DMG bonus so it gets a nice alpha strike? That would be the natural choice for heavy hitting artillery. Its almost like its intentional that the ship shouldnt be good at anything.
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.10.06 13:20:00 -
[22]
mah actually i like an arty platform sith supposed shield tank, the problem here is (probably) the bonus and the number of mids...
also i don't like that much tracking or range bonus on arty...
optimal range is not that great... and anyway you are going to use tracking comps/enhancers... so you will alredy have both decent tracking/range...
a tank bonus imo is not bad, but should be a +res or +hp to be usefull in fleet... another option imho can be a bonus to sensor optimal range, but also minnies have the shortest sensor range :(
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Grimpak
Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.06 13:33:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Grimpak on 06/10/2006 13:33:26 best bonuses for maelstorm, imho, would be +5% dmg bonus + 10% shield hitpoints.
Why? it's heavy, it's slow, shoots stuff once and hard (8x1400's + 25% bonus = OMFG TEH ALPHAPOPPAGE!) and has big shields to boot.
'nuff said. -------
Originally by: Abdalion
Originally by: Jebidus Skari What, in EVE, is a Tyrant?
Me. Especially when it comes to troll threads.
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Krakkan
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Posted - 2006.10.06 14:38:00 -
[24]
10%tracking per lvl and 5% rof
OR boost rof on large artillery and change tempest rof to speed bonus or something else and give a unique bonus on the mealstrom. like the shield bonus or something else beneficial for gang/fleet engagements. the mealstrom should benefit fleets, long range gangs while the tempest is close and personal and flexible to do small close combat gangs, or support in larger long range gangs.
tempest would be nicer and more prefered for autos with a speed bonus, and mealstrom would be the arty platform, enough med slots to prefer shield tanking.
i dont think having 2 ships with long range as their best performance is good, 3 if you count the phoon so perhaps long range is what minmatars is all about , but to fix that i would like to see rof on large arty and autos tweaked so it isnt a needed stat and add speed bonus to tempest(or something else) to seperate the ships more then just making a tempest copy thats different?
im in bonus dreaming heaven atm.. sry(for spelling) and if its mad thinking
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Mr Bright
untaught THE H0RDE
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Posted - 2006.10.06 15:55:00 -
[25]
I would agree that if its not a defensive bonus (where a shield HP bonus would be to prefer) 10% tracking would be quite resonable. Just a quick note though - even with 50% tracking boost at lvl5 a 1400mm II still tracks slower than a Tachyon II.... makes you wonder.......
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Rorix Whitecloud
Caldari Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.06 16:16:00 -
[26]
eeh, if it got both the Damage and the Shield HP bonus then that would mean it would be better than the Tempest in almost every way... which is not what the devs intended the Tier 3 BSs to be. I still think that the Malstrom is supposed to be a small gang ship rather than a fleet ship tho... although it can probably be used both ways, if you are willing to overlook one of its bonuses (heh, not that has stoped ppl before).
~I don't remember. That's the second thing they teach you. |
Mr Bright
untaught THE H0RDE
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Posted - 2006.10.06 17:06:00 -
[27]
I would actually think a Damage bonus instead of the ROF bonus would be to good. Yes the DPS of the ship would be lower when you trade the ROF bonus for a straight damage bonus, but I fear 8x1400mmII would be a tad to much.
Still the shield boost bonus is, in my humble opnion, a very poor bonus for a fleet ops long boat. Moreover, with the pattern of one damage and one defensive bonus to each of the tier 3 BS', a straight shield HP bonus would be vastly superior to the intended bonus. Dont make minmatar get the 2nd pick compared to caldari in defensive bonusses.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.06 17:19:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Mr Bright I would actually think a Damage bonus instead of the ROF bonus would be to good. Yes the DPS of the ship would be lower when you trade the ROF bonus for a straight damage bonus, but I fear 8x1400mmII would be a tad to much.
I can understand that opinion to a degree, because it would make the ship scary. But then again, I feel that the megathron, raven and the dominix are scary ships. Why cant the minmatar get a battleship that becomes respected? Like you say, it would have lower dps, but it would at least be good at something - the alpha strike.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Isonkon Serikain
Gallente Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.10.06 17:24:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Tar om Given that shield tanking is useless in fleet battles, the Tempest is the second best fleet sniper BS, and the Maelstrom will use 8x1400II for the same damage at 33% extra cost in modules - I can't see the point in this ship.
QFT With t2 Howitzers selling for no less than 12 million isk, WHY ON EARTH WOULD YOU USE THIS AS A FLEET BOAT
AS it stands it won't outperform the tempest for this role and you'll lose more money when you get called primary, what a deal. Unless there's an appreciable performance advantage, no one will use it in this capacity...
SO lets talk about the alternative setup... An autocannon boat. Again, the ships design is completely half baked here... It's the slowest minmatar ship and it will shield tank, so you will have issues fitting tackling + tank in mids... And all other battleships will be able to outrun you anyways...
Anyways, its there to stay, because after all, the devs consider minnies the lesser race. Pity the fool |
Rehmes
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Posted - 2006.10.06 17:30:00 -
[30]
Typhoon: -5% speed bonus -5% missle rof 5/5 slot lay out
Tempest: same - I thought of the speed bonus being awesome for the temoest but unfortunately speed and ac tracking makes baby jesus cry.
Maeltrom: -5% dmg -10% tracking bonus...lets be honest in a huge blob if u get called primary u go down quick. Not to mention that if the ship were to get the 10% shield hp then people would prepare accordingly to take it down as quick as possible.
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