See, the perception that HMLs are overpowered continues to this day.

Railguns on a Ferox or Brutix.
Beam lasers on a Harbinger.
Artillery on a Hurricane.

All of these ships can approach the range of a drake and get similar damage output.

All of these ships can also, if they so choose, switch to a longer range ammo and have significantly longer range than the Drake while sacrificing damage.

All of these ships can also, if they so choose, switch to shorter range ammo and do notably more damage than the drake.

"Oh, but missiles can choose their damage type!" Not on a Drake. Or a Tengu. They're locked into the worst damage type in the game.

"Oh, but missiles can choose their damage type!" Not on a Drake. Or a Tengu. They're locked into the worst damage type in the game.

- even fury missiles are long range for a medium weapon system.

Assuming no range rigs, perfect support skills. Longest range T2 ammo. I used T2 ammo because the poster used Fury as his example. For PvP, faction ammo is better for almost every platform. But the differences are similar.

Heavy Missile launcher II
Fury missile travels 47 km and not an inch further. In practice, if your overview shows 47km, you won't hit anything. Overview needs to show 46km or less.

720 Artillery II
Tremor- 64 Optimal + 95 Falloff. Total of 159 with instant damage

Heavy Beam II
Aurora- 54 Optimal + 64 Falloff. Total of 118 with instant damage AND quick change ammo.

250 Rail Gun II
Spike- 64 Optimal + 79 Falloff. Total of 143 with instant damage.

Just the optimal on all those medium systems is 15% to 25% better. Then falloff effectively doubles/triples the range.

Everyone here says that HMLs got nerfed bad, what makes them bad and what were they like before? Also, why are there ships with only bonuses to kinetic missiles and what would happen if we changed that?

Thx

Fury was specifically stated by the devs not to be the ammo for range. They made faction ammo for range and better dps than standard missiles. Fury for midrange but highest dps. And precision for less range but better against smaller faster targets. Whoever you are quoting does not appear to know the current state of affairs or the history of how it got there. Why are you also using Fury in your comparison?

The big surprise to me though about your post is that statement that falloff "effectively doubles/triples the range." I know you must know the graph curves and disadvantages of falloff. Where is that statement of yours coming from?

Fit up a gnosis in pyfa, following weapons with range ammo for optimal + falloff
720mm II - Tremor 54 + 21.9
Heavy Beam II - Aurora 54 + 10
250mm Rail II - Spike 64.8 +15
HML II - Cal Nav Nova 62.9

Now without getting into the alpha or dps or tracking characteristics, i.e. strictly examining range, I would agree that there are some problems with the present state of affairs with regard to range. I would grant the longest range to heavy missiles. It is after all a frigging warhead that carries it's own propellant and guidance. So give it the 64.8km. Then trim spike rails back to 60-62 optimal. Then give aurora heavy beams more optimal, maybe 57or 58. Leave tremor as is.

As for other missile characteristics like damage, rof, dps, alpha, application, I would not agree that HMs deserve any help, except in one regard. CCP has stated that they intend to introduce missile effects to tracking mods (or a sister set of mods) that might alter characteristics such as explosion radius, explosion speed, or range. I would be fine with that. It would force some similar choices on missile use as currently is almost a necessity for turret use. I would also love to see the TD boats get a buff by having missile reducing effects to counter missile use.

First point: My response was to a previous posters reference specifically to Fury missiles, which are a T2 ammo type. I felt that comparison to other T2 ammo was appropriate. I know that Faction ammo carries further and is better in all PvP weapons for the most part. I want to stand by the T2 comparison and not switch in Faction for some weapons and not for others.

Second point, the numbers: GAH! My mistake. I read the numbers and description Verbatim in game. (I think the descriptions used to be written different?) Optimal is correct but the falloff is mis-interpreted. I gotta admit, the numbers seemed staggering to me, and that's why I posted them. Just wasn't thinking clear. Your numbers are correct. My point in general about falloff is, it gives a pilot more range and maneuverability.
Yes I understand falloff damage reduction and all that. But I also understand the margin of safety that comes with extra range.

Editing the post

About 2-3 years and a 8-10(?) content, rebalancing and tiericide patches later we have the OP Ishtar, but this thread was started regarding why HM were nerfed 2-3 years ago, not about the current OP flavor of the year. The current meta of Eve is not applicable.

How you know? You were not there when that happened..

Whine whine whine. Heavy missiles were massively over powered. No one fit HAMs because heavies had fantastic range, 90% the damage and lighter fitting requirements. PvE Tengus fit exclusively HML. The HML drake was the most common PvP and HML were the most common weapon system.

and then look at the double LSE/RLML cerberus, as soon as that was made public every dickhead and his dog started using it which prompted CCP to swing the nerf bat with great celerity.

What I was saying is that there's no "short range" style ammo for HMLs like there is with long range guns, not that fury was the longest range ammo (which it's obviously not) - missiles don't do bad damage at the ranges they hit at (ie if you're shooting at something 40km away HMLs are competitive. If you're shooting at something 20km away, it's an entirely different story.

I used fury as an example specifically because it's shorter ranged - but even then it's still much closer to the longer range ammo than short.

That one was more *well, RLML launchers now are superior to heavies in every situation and superior to HAMs in nearly any situation, we're gonna add a downside*. Then they introduced frontloaded damage, which turned the RLML even more OP for smaller gangs, as their cerbs went from constant 430dps or what it was to short periods of 600ish dps.

Yes but those long range weapons won't track up close, they HAVE to switch ammo so you can't just hop target ranges all the time.

This. Missiles require no range control beyond keeping the target inside your generous effective range, and flying you ship has no real consequences on their effectiveness.

Confirming that RLML Cerbs / Caracals are obnoxiously strong in small-gang warfare, to say nothing of the unholy monster that is the RLML Orthrus.

Their reload times are greatly mitigated by being able to fight from noncomittal ranges and being virtually unapproachable for tackle.