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Elana Apgar
DarkMatter-Industries Upholders
12
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Posted - 2015.02.25 19:36:53 -
[1] - Quote
People should acquire suspect timers when handling stolen loot. With the mechanics as is right now, people handling stolen loot don't get timers. It's like a logi pilot repping a suspect and not getting a timer.
For instance, I was killing gankers in Uedama yesterday, and witnessed T1 frigates stealing loot from the wreck, who in turn dropped it into the fleet hangar of a Deep Space Transport (DST), then a Charon pulled the loot from the fleet hangar of the DST.
The frigates went suspect but the pilot of the DST and the Charon did not. The frigates were able to dump the loot instantly so while we killed them too, there were no real repercussions for them (the gankers) because they never lost the loot at all.
So if ganking is allowed, bumping without aggression is allowed, and hyperdunking is allowed, AND they can loot the wrecks without going suspect, how is this whole thing not broken?
People taking or handling the stolen loot should all go suspect. |
Cannibal Kane
Blood Raiders Elite
4776
|
Posted - 2015.02.25 19:41:46 -
[2] - Quote
Elana Apgar wrote:People should acquire suspect timers when handling stolen loot. With the mechanics as is right now, people handling stolen loot don't get timers. It's like a logi pilot repping a suspect and not getting a timer.
For instance, I was killing gankers in Uedama yesterday, and witnessed T1 frigates stealing loot from the wreck, who in turn dropped it into the fleet hangar of a Deep Space Transport (DST), then a Charon pulled the loot from the fleet hangar of the DST.
The frigates went suspect but the pilot of the DST and the Charon did not. The frigates were able to dump the loot instantly so while we killed them too, there were no real repercussions for them (the gankers) because they never lost the loot at all.
So if ganking is allowed, bumping without aggression is allowed, and hyperdunking is allowed, AND they can loot the wrecks without going suspect, how is this whole thing not broken?
People taking or handling the stolen loot should all go suspect.
But the guy that stole did go suspect. He was just smarter than you.
So lets say they do implement something like that. If you kill the charon and take the loot that will then make you suspect as well. since now you also have stolen loot in the cargo hold.
"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk
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Renegade Heart
Micro N2
420
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Posted - 2015.02.25 19:46:57 -
[3] - Quote
Elana Apgar wrote:they can loot the wrecks without going suspect
No they can't. You can't even steal the stuff unless your safety is off. You have time to lock them up and instapop before they can move the loot to someone else. I see you tried this but clearly you were too slow!
Elana Apgar wrote:People taking or handling the stolen loot should all go suspect.
Agreed. If you purchase stolen goods from someone in a station, and undock without handing the "evidence" into the police, you should go suspect the instant you undock! This is fair right?
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
107
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Posted - 2015.02.25 19:48:44 -
[4] - Quote
Cannibal Kane wrote:Elana Apgar wrote:People should acquire suspect timers when handling stolen loot. With the mechanics as is right now, people handling stolen loot don't get timers. It's like a logi pilot repping a suspect and not getting a timer.
For instance, I was killing gankers in Uedama yesterday, and witnessed T1 frigates stealing loot from the wreck, who in turn dropped it into the fleet hangar of a Deep Space Transport (DST), then a Charon pulled the loot from the fleet hangar of the DST.
The frigates went suspect but the pilot of the DST and the Charon did not. The frigates were able to dump the loot instantly so while we killed them too, there were no real repercussions for them (the gankers) because they never lost the loot at all.
So if ganking is allowed, bumping without aggression is allowed, and hyperdunking is allowed, AND they can loot the wrecks without going suspect, how is this whole thing not broken?
People taking or handling the stolen loot should all go suspect. But the guy that stole did go suspect. He was just smarter than you. So lets say they do implement something like that. If you kill the charon and take the loot that will then make you suspect as well. since now you also have stolen loot in the cargo hold.
Don't you think it's a bit silly that the only way to fight ganking is to go -10 yourself? The best way to fight CODE tactically is to simply mirror their methods to kill the expensive gank-enabling ships.
I have to train a gank alt to play the good guy. It makes no sense.
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Cannibal Kane
Blood Raiders Elite
4777
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Posted - 2015.02.25 19:50:11 -
[5] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Cannibal Kane wrote:Elana Apgar wrote:People should acquire suspect timers when handling stolen loot. With the mechanics as is right now, people handling stolen loot don't get timers. It's like a logi pilot repping a suspect and not getting a timer.
For instance, I was killing gankers in Uedama yesterday, and witnessed T1 frigates stealing loot from the wreck, who in turn dropped it into the fleet hangar of a Deep Space Transport (DST), then a Charon pulled the loot from the fleet hangar of the DST.
The frigates went suspect but the pilot of the DST and the Charon did not. The frigates were able to dump the loot instantly so while we killed them too, there were no real repercussions for them (the gankers) because they never lost the loot at all.
So if ganking is allowed, bumping without aggression is allowed, and hyperdunking is allowed, AND they can loot the wrecks without going suspect, how is this whole thing not broken?
People taking or handling the stolen loot should all go suspect. But the guy that stole did go suspect. He was just smarter than you. So lets say they do implement something like that. If you kill the charon and take the loot that will then make you suspect as well. since now you also have stolen loot in the cargo hold. Don't you think it's a bit silly that the only way to fight ganking is to go -10 yourself? The best way to fight CODE tactically is to simply mirror their methods to kill the expensive gank-enabling ships. I have to train a gank alt to play the good guy. It makes no sense.
It is supposed to make about as much sense as the OP's idea.
"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk
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Futt Isimazu
State War Academy Caldari State
19
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Posted - 2015.02.25 21:18:32 -
[6] - Quote
OP's idea, assuming no LEGACYCODE problems, is simple.
Stolen items have a 'stolen' tag until the ship containing them docks in a station. Anyone who picks up an item with a 'stolen' tag is rendered suspect.
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
667
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Posted - 2015.02.25 21:21:15 -
[7] - Quote
Elana Apgar wrote:People should acquire suspect timers when handling stolen loot. With the mechanics as is right now, people handling stolen loot don't get timers. It's like a logi pilot repping a suspect and not getting a timer.
For instance, I was killing gankers in Uedama yesterday, and witnessed T1 frigates stealing loot from the wreck, who in turn dropped it into the fleet hangar of a Deep Space Transport (DST), then a Charon pulled the loot from the fleet hangar of the DST. This seems more like a feature or idea you are proposing. But if you would like to discuss here, why would you want to do this even if it was even possible to code in the game?
This would make ganking much less profitable due to the lost loot and/or ships lost in the course of trying to grab the loot. Why would you want to take away the primary monetary incentive to a "profession" that CCP has coded into the game?
Elana Apgar wrote:So if ganking is allowed, bumping without aggression is allowed, and hyperdunking is allowed, AND they can loot the wrecks without going suspect, how is this whole thing not broken? It has been put into the game on purpose to provide some small amount of risk to haulers. A freighter can with modest effort avoid gankers (with a scout/webber, some tank and not overloading) with nearly 100% success. More importantly, the risk of freighters to bumping provides a slight disincentive for using an AFK hauler to move everything in highsec. Freighters need to have a weakness to offset their massive EHP, and that is to bumping.
Without bumping and loot recovery there would be practically no freighter ganking in highsec, just AFK freighters silently crossing highsec all day long. Do you really think this version of highsec, also absent of gankers and anti-gankers and the player-driven conflict they engage in would be an improvement for the game?
Sabriz Adoudel for CSM 10 is a good idea.
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Leto Thule
Everywhere and Terrible
2117
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Posted - 2015.02.26 04:29:01 -
[8] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Cannibal Kane wrote:Elana Apgar wrote:People should acquire suspect timers when handling stolen loot. With the mechanics as is right now, people handling stolen loot don't get timers. It's like a logi pilot repping a suspect and not getting a timer.
For instance, I was killing gankers in Uedama yesterday, and witnessed T1 frigates stealing loot from the wreck, who in turn dropped it into the fleet hangar of a Deep Space Transport (DST), then a Charon pulled the loot from the fleet hangar of the DST.
The frigates went suspect but the pilot of the DST and the Charon did not. The frigates were able to dump the loot instantly so while we killed them too, there were no real repercussions for them (the gankers) because they never lost the loot at all.
So if ganking is allowed, bumping without aggression is allowed, and hyperdunking is allowed, AND they can loot the wrecks without going suspect, how is this whole thing not broken?
People taking or handling the stolen loot should all go suspect. But the guy that stole did go suspect. He was just smarter than you. So lets say they do implement something like that. If you kill the charon and take the loot that will then make you suspect as well. since now you also have stolen loot in the cargo hold. Don't you think it's a bit silly that the only way to fight ganking is to go -10 yourself? The best way to fight CODE tactically is to simply mirror their methods to kill the expensive gank-enabling ships. I have to train a gank alt to play the good guy. It makes no sense.
There is no good.
There is no bad.
There are only decisions and consequences.
Big Fat Forum Meanie and Thanatos Scammer
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Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
23450
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Posted - 2015.02.26 04:51:15 -
[9] - Quote
Elana Apgar wrote:I was killing gankers in Uedama yesterday, and witnessed T1 frigates stealing loot from the wreck, who in turn dropped it into the fleet hangar of a Deep Space Transport (DST), then a Charon pulled the loot from the fleet hangar of the DST.
Seems like a lot of activity went down before you shot the looters. If all you're doing is shooting, you should be able to intercept the clunky Ship 1 -> Ship 2 -> Ship 3 transfer a bit faster..
Also, why not suicide them? It's an ISK war too, isn't it?
Rush to danger, wind up nowhere
Sabriz for CSM go go go
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Dilligafmofo
Sandman Plc
355
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Posted - 2015.02.26 09:05:07 -
[10] - Quote
I have a light bulb out on my thorax, should I be suspect for this? |
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BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
Brawlers Inc.
1468
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Posted - 2015.02.26 11:14:25 -
[11] - Quote
Since I'm done with my little ag stint, I'll share a secret. Anyone can do this. In fact it can be quite funny watching all the bumpers trying to keep t1 industrials and dst's away from the wreck. You want to hit CODE.'s margins? Get their loot. It is hands down the least efficient part of their freigther ganking process, and currently super easy to interfere with. If you can find one of their fleets up its not hard for a small group to make a bill or so off of their wrecks. Add some thrashers to pop anything you can't steal and you can actually impact the bottom line.
Of course the afore mentioned strategy actually requires intel and competent piloting so I wouldn't hold my breath on anyone doing it.
New Player Placement Specialist and Scope Project FC.
Contact me for a free consultation.
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Mike Adoulin
Adolescent Radioactive Pirate Hamsters
1169
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Posted - 2015.02.26 15:26:57 -
[12] - Quote
I love watching the vultures creep close to the juicy freighter corpses when a CODE fleet is doing their thing.
The DST pilots tend to be the pro's, but there are enough greedy amatuers to feed mah passive locking Ishtar.
Everything in EVE is a trap.
And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:)
You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg.
Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.
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Lennox Dantes
The Scope Gallente Federation
7
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Posted - 2015.02.27 00:49:50 -
[13] - Quote
There was nothing wrong with the original suspect timers from the old can-flipping days. Bring those back and you will fix high-sec. |
Vic Jefferson
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
175
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Posted - 2015.02.27 01:48:03 -
[14] - Quote
If it so concerns you, get a thrasher and pop the wreck.
If you play by the rules of Hi Sec, expect to be inconvenienced by them from time to time.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X
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McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
392
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Posted - 2015.02.27 06:41:05 -
[15] - Quote
Ideally any stolen loot would result in a suspect flag until the loot is docked up, which means the DST and the Charon should turn suspect if they are in possession of the loot. The suspect mechanic becomes rather irrelevant if you can sacrifice a cheap, tanked Nereus to transfer all the loot to a safe DST.
The question is whether this is possible to achieve or not without a major rewrite of the code.
~ Bookmarks in overview
~ Fleet improvements
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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
849
|
Posted - 2015.02.27 13:21:28 -
[16] - Quote
So the AG dudes are once again too bad to play the game and demand changes from CCP. What a surprise.
the Code ALWAYS wins
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Renegade Heart
Micro N2
425
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Posted - 2015.02.27 13:30:06 -
[17] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:So the AG dudes are once again too bad to play the game and demand changes from CCP. What a surprise.
All of them? Lol |
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
2807
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Posted - 2015.02.27 13:42:14 -
[18] - Quote
This sounds like a really good idea. It's very realistic, as far as the crime/consequence relationship goes.
I'd be absolutely in favor of implementing this, as long as we also make summoning CONCORD for a crime in progress a manual action, just like calling the police is in real life.
I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:
https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
11941
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Posted - 2015.02.27 13:48:00 -
[19] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote: Don't you think it's a bit silly that the only way to fight ganking is to go -10 yourself? The best way to fight CODE tactically is to simply mirror their methods to kill the expensive gank-enabling ships.
I have to train a gank alt to play the good guy. It makes no sense.
Except for the part where you can shoot them regardless, since most of them are neg ten to begin with.
Once again I must question if you actually play this game.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Agent Unknown
Night Theifs DamnedNation
34
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Posted - 2015.02.27 14:03:27 -
[20] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:If it so concerns you, get a thrasher and pop the wreck.
If you play by the rules of Hi Sec, expect to be inconvenienced by them from time to time.
This. Suicide the wreck and deny the billions that lay within. |
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Kiryen O'Bannon
Silver Guardians Fidelas Constans
209
|
Posted - 2015.02.27 16:03:29 -
[21] - Quote
Sinc you're stealing the loot from the rats in the first place, I see no reason why other players shpuld be penalized for stealing it first. Ostensibly rats are pirates and bad, but capsuleers are essentially amoral and when you warp into a mission the rats are justsitting there not bothering anyone until you show up to kick their ass and take their loot. |
Paranoid Loyd
3979
|
Posted - 2015.02.27 16:14:48 -
[22] - Quote
Kiryen O'Bannon wrote:Sinc you're stealing the loot from the rats in the first place, I see no reason why other players shpuld be penalized for stealing it first. Ostensibly rats are pirates and bad, but capsuleers are essentially amoral and when you warp into a mission the rats are justsitting there not bothering anyone until you show up to kick their ass and take their loot. No one is talking about stealing rat loot. They are talking about gank loot.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!!!
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Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
1437
|
Posted - 2015.02.27 16:36:31 -
[23] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:Kiryen O'Bannon wrote:Sinc you're stealing the loot from the rats in the first place, I see no reason why other players shpuld be penalized for stealing it first. Ostensibly rats are pirates and bad, but capsuleers are essentially amoral and when you warp into a mission the rats are justsitting there not bothering anyone until you show up to kick their ass and take their loot. No one is talking about stealing rat loot. They are talking about gank loot. Well, some of the gank loot could have started out as rat loot. So, by that count, suicide gankers should* be getting standings buffs to the NPC pirate factions for liberating their stolen loot.
*should not, because that would be about as silly as the other obviously silly posts here.
My Many Misadventures
Reading Comprehension: so important it deserves it's own skillbook.
I seek to create content, not become content.
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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
849
|
Posted - 2015.02.27 18:06:01 -
[24] - Quote
Renegade Heart wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:So the AG dudes are once again too bad to play the game and demand changes from CCP. What a surprise. All of them? Lol Yes
They also look the same, all of them
the Code ALWAYS wins
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admiral root
Red Galaxy
2434
|
Posted - 2015.02.28 00:37:56 -
[25] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote: Don't you think it's a bit silly that the only way to fight ganking is to go -10 yourself? The best way to fight CODE tactically is to simply mirror their methods to kill the expensive gank-enabling ships.
I have to train a gank alt to play the good guy. It makes no sense.
Except for the part where you can shoot them regardless, since most of them are neg ten to begin with. Once again I must question if you actually play this game.
Emphasis on "gank-enabling". He's saying gank the bumping machariels, which would work if whinebears had less whine and more fortitude.
No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff | No-one hates you, none of us care enough for that.
Sabriz for CSM
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Drez Arthie
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
30
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Posted - 2015.02.28 01:56:28 -
[26] - Quote
admiral root wrote:
Emphasis on "gank-enabling". He's saying gank the bumping machariels, which would work if whinebears had less whine and more fortitude.
You know a powerful player who did not need ego reinforcement would not notice whether anyone was whining because of his ganking |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
23175
|
Posted - 2015.02.28 02:36:15 -
[27] - Quote
Drez Arthie wrote:admiral root wrote:
Emphasis on "gank-enabling". He's saying gank the bumping machariels, which would work if whinebears had less whine and more fortitude.
You know a powerful player who did not need ego reinforcement would not notice whether anyone was whining because of his ganking Given the sheer amount of whining that occurs because of ganking, the only people that don't notice it are those that either don't use the forums or don't play Eve.
The consensual/non consensual PvP argument isn't unique to Eve, the insidious carebear menace is present in many games that allow PvP; the GTA forums are an amusing read, especially in relation to online mode....
"Remember, as a non-combatant, your best tank is being elsewhere." ~ Abrazzar
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
11943
|
Posted - 2015.02.28 02:38:47 -
[28] - Quote
admiral root wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote: Don't you think it's a bit silly that the only way to fight ganking is to go -10 yourself? The best way to fight CODE tactically is to simply mirror their methods to kill the expensive gank-enabling ships.
I have to train a gank alt to play the good guy. It makes no sense.
Except for the part where you can shoot them regardless, since most of them are neg ten to begin with. Once again I must question if you actually play this game. Emphasis on "gank-enabling". He's saying gank the bumping machariels, which would work if whinebears had less whine and more fortitude.
Why would you gank the Machariels instead of just using a web alt?
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
109
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Posted - 2015.02.28 06:20:42 -
[29] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote: Don't you think it's a bit silly that the only way to fight ganking is to go -10 yourself? The best way to fight CODE tactically is to simply mirror their methods to kill the expensive gank-enabling ships.
I have to train a gank alt to play the good guy. It makes no sense.
Except for the part where you can shoot them regardless, since most of them are neg ten to begin with. Once again I must question if you actually play this game. I wasn't aware the bumping machariels and loot scooping haulers were -10. I think you misunderstood my comment. I'm fully aware that I can freely blap empty pods and disposable catalysts.
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Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
23515
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Posted - 2015.02.28 07:46:27 -
[30] - Quote
I don't think he was saying that Xeno. Loot scoopers likely aren't -10, but you shouldn't be shooting scoopers anyway, just the wrecks. And I'm sure you know that the first loot scooper gets suspect for scooping so you should be shooting/scramming that fellow without penalty.
As for Machs.. well that's just the price of having fun, and bumping Machs are made of paper.
Rush to danger, wind up nowhere
Sabriz for CSM go go go
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
11945
|
Posted - 2015.02.28 08:05:10 -
[31] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote: I wasn't aware the bumping machariels and loot scooping haulers were -10.
You don't need to shoot those in the first place. Use a webbing alt and you've gotten past them.
Now, if you're actually willing to shoot things, you might as well shoot the freighter wrecks for better effect.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
656
|
Posted - 2015.03.02 14:13:28 -
[32] - Quote
I think his point was that if you gank a ganker then the security status penalty should not apply to the same degree, perhaps a sliding scale on the security scale would be fair and equitable. It does seem however that CCP has issues in looking at some of its criminalisation mechanics which defy logic, though looking at where I live it seems that real life is actually getting closer and closer to Eve!
Ella's Snack bar
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Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
2039
|
Posted - 2015.03.02 17:33:52 -
[33] - Quote
I'm struggling to see why getting a larger sec status hit for shooting someone who has shot more NPCs than someone else is either fair or equitable to anyone.
Sec status is not a real measure of anything. |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
659
|
Posted - 2015.03.02 21:38:58 -
[34] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:I'm struggling to see why getting a larger sec status hit for shooting someone who has shot more NPCs than someone else is either fair or equitable to anyone.
Sec status is not a real measure of anything.
I think you misunderstood what I was suggesting on what I think he said, personally I think its just a better idea to train a Gank alt, though using ones main is also fun, if only that Macherial had not fitted a DCU, so shot the next best thing...
Ella's Snack bar
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Asia Leigh
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
245
|
Posted - 2015.03.02 22:03:38 -
[35] - Quote
4 solutions to your problem.
1. Suicide gank their orca, DST /or their freighter.
2. Shoot their transfer ships that go suspect when they loot. While you may not get any loot, you can make it a pain in the ass for them to operate efficiently and you may get lucky.
3. Grab whatever loot you can and GTFO before you get shot.
4. Suicide gank the wreck itself and deny the loot all-together.
Stop being lazy and stop trying to get CCP to do your work for you, and use the tools you have at your disposal to do what you want to try and accomplish.
Apply the damn rules equally >.>
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Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
756
|
Posted - 2015.03.02 23:21:12 -
[36] - Quote
Asia Leigh wrote:4 solutions to your problem.
1. Suicide gank their orca, DST /or their freighter.
2. Shoot their transfer ships that go suspect when they loot. While you may not get any loot, you can make it a pain in the ass for them to operate efficiently and you may get lucky.
3. Grab whatever loot you can and GTFO before you get shot.
4. Suicide gank the wreck itself and deny the loot all-together.
Stop being lazy and stop trying to get CCP to do your work for you, and use the tools you have at your disposal to do what you want to try and accomplish.
Slow down there Speed Racer. That all requires effort and learning. |
Renegade Heart
Micro N2
425
|
Posted - 2015.03.02 23:53:58 -
[37] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Renegade Heart wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:So the AG dudes are once again too bad to play the game and demand changes from CCP. What a surprise. All of them? Lol Yes They also look the same, all of them
Ridiculous trolls. |
Talos Antilles
Red Frog Freight Red-Frog
1
|
Posted - 2015.03.03 05:32:39 -
[38] - Quote
Elana Apgar wrote:People taking or handling the stolen loot should all go suspect.
Do you have any clue what this would do to the game code and databases? Not only would items have the ITEM ID that tells what they are, but they would have a unique identifier IN ADDITION TO the ITEM ID. Each and every singular item would have to exist as a unique record (see: IUID, item unique identification). The result is an exponential growth in server databases and data caches on clients. Stacking items? Irrevocably broken, without MORE code to assign ANOTHER identifier for the group of items. More database records, larger data caches.
I understand your frustration, but in a game that is far more dynamic in terms of asset accountability than any RL business in existence (creation, transfer, destruction), it is way beyond feasible to implement. I was a project manager for an effort to incorporate IUID into a DoD logistics system, and it was a nightmare - and that was on a scale far smaller than the logistics involved in EVE.
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Talos Antilles
Red Frog Freight Red-Frog
1
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Posted - 2015.03.03 05:42:13 -
[39] - Quote
Futt Isimazu wrote:OP's idea, assuming no LEGACYCODE problems, is simple.
Stolen items have a 'stolen' tag until the ship containing them docks in a station. Anyone who picks up an item with a 'stolen' tag is rendered suspect.
How do you differentiate between a stolen item and a legally-owned item in the same container (cargo hold, fleet hangar, station bay, freight container) when they have the same item id, and that is the only identifier they have?
Not so simple.
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Chenguang Hucel-Ge
Exiled Tech Space Monkey Protectorate
7
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Posted - 2015.03.03 08:55:41 -
[40] - Quote
Talos Antilles wrote:Futt Isimazu wrote:OP's idea, assuming no LEGACYCODE problems, is simple.
Stolen items have a 'stolen' tag until the ship containing them docks in a station. Anyone who picks up an item with a 'stolen' tag is rendered suspect.
How do you differentiate between a stolen item and a legally-owned item in the same container (cargo hold, fleet hangar, station bay, freight container) when they have the same item id, and that is the only identifier they have? Not so simple. In terms of spaceships, we can easily pass these flags to ALL items of the same id, nullifying them as fast as any suspect gets killed, timer running out or reaching safety (Either POS shield or station). It worked in Morrowind, kinda, but there was problem that ownership flags were permanent.
Also, the problem with someone else's fleet hangar is that there is no even small delay between steal and safety. You just throw stolen directly in fleet hangar, not holding it even for 1 ms. Add 2 seconds to it - and you've got something that remotely looks like fair game. |
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Avaelica Kuershin
14
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Posted - 2015.03.03 09:45:32 -
[41] - Quote
Elana Apgar wrote: The frigates went suspect but the pilot of the DST and the Charon did not. The frigates were able to dump the loot instantly so while we killed them too, there were no real repercussions for them (the gankers) because they never lost the loot at all.
So if ..., bumping without aggression is allowed, .
Perhaps the answer was there all the time.
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Elana Apgar
DarkMatter-Industries Upholders
19
|
Posted - 2015.03.03 17:02:05 -
[42] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote: I wasn't aware the bumping machariels and loot scooping haulers were -10.
You don't need to shoot those in the first place. Use a webbing alt and you've gotten past them. Now, if you're actually willing to shoot things, you might as well shoot the freighter wrecks for better effect.
The problem with shooting wrecks is that it makes you criminal and the owner of the wreck gets a killright on you- something that doesn't happen if you steal the wreck. Something else kinda broken when you think about it... |
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
738
|
Posted - 2015.03.03 17:34:23 -
[43] - Quote
OP has silly whine, if someone is looting a wreck that was freighter ganked by a fleet (CODE for example) then one could just as well turn off the safety, assemble your own fleet, wait for the wreck to disseapper, wait for the freighter to align and gank the freighter that was carrying the loot from the first freighter.
Basicly
1. Freighter AFK in 2. Gank fleet shows up 3. Pilots use disposable ships to loot, carry to another freighter 4. ???? 5. PROFIT! You now repeat step 2 and 3 by warping your own fleet in on top of the gank fleet, bump the freighter with your own mach, loot with your own disposable ships, and loot with another freighter there by giving the first fleet the chance to show back up unless you are very quick.
To much to understand?
tldr: When in Rome, do as the EVE do. Neut Mach Bump, Gank, Neut loot, Move to Neut Freighter, and do what they did while losing your own sec status. Sandbox is a poor term to describe a game, when basically you can only be the bad guy to win. Forget about losing to CONCORD, EVE is just a poor simulator of combat with the safety turned off and a case study of seeing how much people are willing to risk to win. |
Paranoid Loyd
4004
|
Posted - 2015.03.03 17:39:11 -
[44] - Quote
Elana Apgar wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote: I wasn't aware the bumping machariels and loot scooping haulers were -10.
You don't need to shoot those in the first place. Use a webbing alt and you've gotten past them. Now, if you're actually willing to shoot things, you might as well shoot the freighter wrecks for better effect. The problem with shooting wrecks is that it makes you criminal and the owner of the wreck gets a killright on you- something that doesn't happen if you steal the wreck. Something else kinda broken when you think about it... If you don't want to get dirty, don't play in the dirt.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!!!
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Talos Antilles
Red Frog Freight Red-Frog
3
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Posted - 2015.03.04 08:21:27 -
[45] - Quote
Chenguang Hucel-Ge wrote:Talos Antilles wrote:Futt Isimazu wrote:OP's idea, assuming no LEGACYCODE problems, is simple.
Stolen items have a 'stolen' tag until the ship containing them docks in a station. Anyone who picks up an item with a 'stolen' tag is rendered suspect.
How do you differentiate between a stolen item and a legally-owned item in the same container (cargo hold, fleet hangar, station bay, freight container) when they have the same item id, and that is the only identifier they have? Not so simple. In terms of spaceships, we can easily pass these flags to ALL items of the same id, nullifying them as fast as any suspect gets killed, timer running out or reaching safety (Either POS shield or station). It worked in Morrowind, kinda, but there was problem that ownership flags were permanent. Also, the problem with someone else's fleet hangar is that there is no even small delay between steal and safety. You just throw stolen directly in fleet hangar, not holding it even for 1 ms. Add 2 seconds to it - and you've got something that remotely looks like fair game.
I have a widget, then stole a widget, so now they're both stolen. Oh. Kay. |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
668
|
Posted - 2015.03.04 10:33:15 -
[46] - Quote
Well might as well talk about it here.
So I thought lets join in on the fun, so I am sitting next to a freighter wreck thinking yay I can shoot whoever sccops the loot, I am next to a transport ship and a freighter, in comes noob ship goes suspect, I ignore it as I think diversion, all the loot from the wreck disappears and I sit there going WTF. So when I came across this thread the penny dropped, Consequences indeed, Eve is such a cold hard difficult place, are you kidding me?
OK as mechanics go I have to accept that this one cannot be changed, the ways it can be used to grief mean you cannot do it any other way and service fleet mates, but there you go, not so hard and dark is it for Mr Gankers scooping alts is it.
So while a friend and I were chewing this over we started talking about Kaarous and his thing about bling fitted mission ships running around in total safety in hisec comment that he loves to throw around and we saw a loss by a mission killer in Osmon where the person involved had his safety set to red instead of orange. Scratch one pimp fitted Stratios, what is amusing is that it was a bling fitted mission killer that was totally safe because you know mission boats in the main do not have points, so there you go Kaarous a bling fitted ship that is normally sate in hisec. If only he had set his safety to orange...
We thought you would like the irony on that loss, just check Osmon for it. This is not to have a go at the player concerned, we all make mistakes, but I love it that the safety feature is important when it comes to criminal activities...
Especially funny as we had the main CODE player in Osmon teling him to set his safety to orange next time.
Ella's Snack bar
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McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
430
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Posted - 2015.03.04 11:22:08 -
[47] - Quote
Aqriue wrote:OP has silly whine, if someone is looting a wreck that was freighter ganked by a fleet (CODE for example) then one could just as well turn off the safety, assemble your own fleet, wait for the wreck to disseapper, wait for the freighter to align and gank the freighter that was carrying the loot from the first freighter.
Basicly
1. Freighter AFK in 2. Gank fleet shows up 3. Pilots use disposable ships to loot, carry to another freighter 4. ???? 5. PROFIT! You now repeat step 2 and 3 by warping your own fleet in on top of the gank fleet, bump the freighter with your own mach, loot with your own disposable ships, and loot with another freighter there by giving the first fleet the chance to show back up unless you are very quick.
To much to understand?
tldr: When in Rome, do as the EVE do. Neut Mach Bump, Gank, Neut loot, Move to Neut Freighter, and do what they did while losing your own sec status. Sandbox is a poor term to describe a game, when basically you can only be the bad guy to win. Forget about losing to CONCORD, EVE is just a poor simulator of combat with the safety turned off and a case study of seeing how much people are willing to risk to win. Don't buy it. You are asking anti-criminals to become criminals to counter criminals. CONCORD should not be penalizing players that are attempting to halt thieves carrying stolen loot. Anti-piracy is a legitimate play style. Game mechanics should support it.
The intent of the suspect mechanic is an important consideration here. It flags your ship for open combat to add risk to the process of thievery. Swapping out that risk for the sacrifice of a cheap T1 hauler expels the purpose behind the suspect flag - giving players the ability to stop thieves through legally sanctioned combat.
~ Bookmarks in overview
~ Fleet improvements
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Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
2816
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Posted - 2015.03.04 11:26:59 -
[48] - Quote
The idea is entirely untenable from a coding perspective anyway. And even if by some miracle it was implemented and properly worked, despite the thousands of various considerations that would have to be accounted for, it would merely force gankers to use even more alts than they do today. Now, ganking operations will also need to have protection ships on standby in case anyone wants to aggro the final carrier, and they'll have enough of them present to deter any form of interference. This will, of course, require increased PLEX expenditures in order to fuel the extra accounts, which will in turn make gankers gank more in order to compensate for the increased costs. So at the end of the day, the intended change will have the exact opposite effect of the intended one, as is par for the course for every "anti-sociopath" idea ever proposed by carebears and/or implemented by CCP.
I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:
https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
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McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
430
|
Posted - 2015.03.04 11:49:56 -
[49] - Quote
Destiny Corrupted wrote:The idea is entirely untenable from a coding perspective anyway. I imagine this to be the case.
Quote:And even if by some miracle it was implemented and properly worked, despite the thousands of various considerations that would have to be accounted for, it would merely force gankers to use even more alts than they do today. Why would it force them to do that? It's trivially easy to get away with stolen loot if you understand how to fit and pilot a Deep Space Transport. Only a well piloted HIC can stop you.
It would serve as more of a litmus test. The looters that die will be like the anti-tanked Retriever in a 0.5. Smart looters and smart miners don't die unless faced with very competent pilots. Dumb ones do and should.
I also think you are over estimating how many pilots are willing to roll with an army of alts. Gankers would have more target availability if they rolled with many alts yet most have only 1 or 2 gank characters.
Quote:Now, ganking operations will also need to have protection ships on standby in case anyone wants to aggro the final carrier, and they'll have enough of them present to deter any form of interference. They would have to be gank ships. Only the suspect in the industrial has a limited engagement. Gankers would need to muster up enough gank ships to kill buffer tanked combat vessels at a time when all the pilots involved in the freighter gank are already criminally flagged. They may land a kill or two on pilots with bad spacial awareness but not enough to stop a group of anti-pirates.
If talking logi keep in mind the logi would turn suspect and could be alpha'd off the field. I for one would look forward to the battle of logistics ships trying to keep a suspect looter alive while anti-pirates try to alpha them off grid. This sounds wonderful to me, I am not sure why anyone would think of this as a bad thing.
Quote:This will, of course, require increased PLEX expenditures in order to fuel the extra accounts, which will in turn make gankers gank more in order to compensate for the increased costs. The extra accounts won't happen and ganking is not how most players are making their profit. If we accept your statement though, more ganking and more revenue for CCP. Sounds good.
Quote:So at the end of the day, the intended change will have the exact opposite effect of the intended one The intended change is to allow players to shoot at anyone who is in possession of the stolen loot until the loot is docked up. How will this have the opposite effect?
~ Bookmarks in overview
~ Fleet improvements
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Chenguang Hucel-Ge
Exiled Tech Space Monkey Protectorate
8
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Posted - 2015.03.04 11:53:39 -
[50] - Quote
Talos Antilles wrote:I have a widget, then stole a widget, so now they're both stolen. Oh. Kay. Yes, game mechanics sound stupid sometimes, but that's how it worked in TESIII. And, in fact, that how every law enforcement work. But then you just ignored full list of terms under which these flags are voided. I repeat: Time lapse, reaching station, reaching POS shield, surviving a ship going pop. |
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Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
2816
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Posted - 2015.03.04 13:04:49 -
[51] - Quote
McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:Why would it force them to do that? It's trivially easy to get away with stolen loot if you understand how to fit and pilot a Deep Space Transport. Only a well piloted HIC can stop you.
It would serve as more of a litmus test. The looters that die will be like the anti-tanked Retriever in a 0.5. Smart looters and smart miners don't die unless faced with very competent pilots. Dumb ones do and should.
I also think you are over estimating how many pilots are willing to roll with an army of alts. Gankers would have more target availability if they rolled with many alts yet most have only 1 or 2 gank characters. To ensure that the loot doesn't get counter-scooped while it's being worked on, if necessary.
McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:They would have to be gank ships. Only the suspect in the industrial has a limited engagement. Gankers would need to muster up enough gank ships to kill buffer tanked combat vessels at a time when all the pilots involved in the freighter gank are already criminally flagged. They may land a kill or two on pilots with bad spacial awareness but not enough to stop a group of anti-pirates.
If talking logi keep in mind the logi would turn suspect and could be alpha'd off the field. I for one would look forward to the battle of logistics ships trying to keep a suspect looter alive while anti-pirates try to alpha them off grid. I am not sure why anyone would think of this as a bad thing. If there's interference, it could result in an expanded chain of suspect flags and limited engagements. Suppose one player repairs the hauler being attacked by the "anti-pirate" (these don't exist, by the way). Now the anti-pirate has to take out that player in order to damage the hauler. If he attacks him, that player will in turn be repaired by a team of friendly Guardians or something. Now the anti-pirate will need to deal with the Guardians as well. There could also be extra bumpers, suicide ECM boats, and other stuff.
It would all work out similarly to the way that suspect flag-baiting works out today, and trust me, it almost never works out in favor of the white knights.
McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:I don't think that will happen but if so, more ganking and more revenue for CCP. Sounds good. Even if we're going to consider the proliferation of alt usage (as opposed to an increasing amount of unique players) as a good thing, there's also the matter of placing all of that burden on one specific player demographic, which leads to:
McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:Quote:So at the end of the day, the intended change will have the exact opposite effect of the intended one The intended change is to allow players to shoot at anyone who is in possession of the stolen loot until the loot is docked up. How will this have the opposite effect? Because gankers will need to gank more in order to compensate for the newly-increased costs of ganking. Gankers ganking more is the opposite of the effect sought by the OP as a consequence of the idea being proposed. The OP wants less ganking, not more; if the OP's idea is implemented, the opposite will happen.
I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:
https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
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Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
23615
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Posted - 2015.03.04 15:53:24 -
[52] - Quote
What is the problem we are trying to solve? People not shooting the wreck or failing to shoot the first looter on the scene?
Rush to danger, wind up nowhere
Sabriz for CSM go go go
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Paranoid Loyd
4011
|
Posted - 2015.03.04 16:28:38 -
[53] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote: What is the problem we are trying to solve? People not shooting the wreck or failing to shoot the first looter on the scene?
White knights are mad they can't easily kill people when they are scooping the loot. The obvious solution is to use the same tactics the "bad" people use but they are above that so they want the mechanics changed.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!!!
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Zealous Miner
16
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Posted - 2015.03.04 16:37:47 -
[54] - Quote
If you want to beat the "bad guys" then you're going to have to put in just as much work as they do. Also, as anti-gankers in this game you are essentially vigilantes. Vigilantes carry out their own efforts without legal authority and aren't exactly famous for doing so in the exact manner the law prescribes. Just something to keep in mind.
So, either be quicker on the draw or be prepared to fight dirty if it comes down to it. Just like real vigilante groups.
I voted for Sabriz Adoudel for CSM10. You should too.
www.minerbumping.com
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Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
1457
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Posted - 2015.03.04 17:22:24 -
[55] - Quote
All kidding aside, having a suspect flag transfer from a ship scooping the loot to a ship with a fleet hangar storing it is a monumentally horrible idea from the standpoint of the miner/hauler/anti-ganking community.
Why?
Well, imagine that you're someone who enjoys a good AWOX and has infiltrated a mining corp. The corp has friendly fire off, so they feel pretty safe in space with the new guy. Assuming that the OP's proposal were implemented, the easiest Orca AWOXes in the world could be achieved by:
1. Get into a mining fleet with an Orca that is allowing you access to their fleet hangar. 2. Have an out-of-corp alt warp to you and drop something next to you. 3. Scoop this loot, suspect flagging yourself, and deposit the loot into the Orca's fleet hangar, suspect flagging the Orca. 4. The alt kills the Orca dead while you warp to safety.
All because the Orca got suspect flagged for something you did, not them.
Suspect flags should not be earned for actions that you did not commit. The potential for abuse is far too great. And I say this as someone who generally runs with their sec status negative.
My Many Misadventures
Reading Comprehension: so important it deserves it's own skillbook.
I seek to create content, not become content.
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
679
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Posted - 2015.03.04 19:19:51 -
[56] - Quote
Bronson Hughes wrote:All kidding aside, having a suspect flag transfer from a ship scooping the loot to a ship with a fleet hangar storing it is a monumentally horrible idea from the standpoint of the miner/hauler/anti-ganking community.
Why?
Well, imagine that you're someone who enjoys a good AWOX and has infiltrated a mining corp. The corp has friendly fire off, so they feel pretty safe in space with the new guy. Assuming that the OP's proposal were implemented, the easiest Orca AWOXes in the world could be achieved by:
1. Get into a mining fleet with an Orca that is allowing you access to their fleet hangar. 2. Have an out-of-corp alt warp to you and drop something next to you. 3. Scoop this loot, suspect flagging yourself, and deposit the loot into the Orca's fleet hangar, suspect flagging the Orca. 4. The alt kills the Orca dead while you warp to safety.
All because the Orca got suspect flagged for something you did, not them.
Suspect flags should not be earned for actions that you did not commit. The potential for abuse is far too great. And I say this as someone who generally runs with their sec status negative.
That's the point I made above, its also why I laugh when people get upset about bumping and think it should cause aggression. Anyway it is what it is, the only option that the AG's have is to blow up the wreck before it can be scooped and just accept it as another mechanic that aids certain people, but I have to sneer each time they tell me how hard it is to be a ganker and this just adds to it!
Ella's Snack bar
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
115
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Posted - 2015.03.04 19:54:07 -
[57] - Quote
Zealous Miner wrote:If you want to beat the "bad guys" then you're going to have to put in just as much work as they do. Also, as anti-gankers in this game you are essentially vigilantes. Vigilantes carry out their own efforts without legal authority and aren't exactly famous for doing so in the exact manner the law prescribes. Just something to keep in mind.
So, either be quicker on the draw or be prepared to fight dirty if it comes down to it. Just like real vigilante groups. If you want to space lawyer this, I'm not sure that a citizen who attempts to stop a crime in progress is considered a vigilante. And the term loses all meaning anyway when law enforcement utterly fails in it's responsibilities.
Anti-piracy should be a valid playstyle in highsec and the game of alts so adeptly practiced by the bored bittervets doing most of the ganking renders it hopelessly futile.
The best anti-code organization would be a mirror image with more alts. It's kind of sad.
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Steppa Musana
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
25
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Posted - 2015.03.04 23:17:49 -
[58] - Quote
Oh lookie here. Another thread where the gankers defend a bad mechanic because they are self serving like the carebears. I mean God forbid the game be made to be fun for everyone. Heavens forbid we give the other side any tools to use against us. Oh right, they have the tools, I forgot, they can just be gankers themselves!
More proof that the highsec gank community are just carebears in disguise. Risk averse and self serving. |
Kiryen O'Bannon
Silver Guardians Fidelas Constans
217
|
Posted - 2015.03.04 23:20:02 -
[59] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:Kiryen O'Bannon wrote:Sinc you're stealing the loot from the rats in the first place, I see no reason why other players shpuld be penalized for stealing it first. Ostensibly rats are pirates and bad, but capsuleers are essentially amoral and when you warp into a mission the rats are justsitting there not bothering anyone until you show up to kick their ass and take their loot. No one is talking about stealing rat loot. They are talking about gank loot.
Ah. I misunderstood then. Nevertheless I see no reason the same principle should not apply. |
Zealous Miner
27
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Posted - 2015.03.04 23:34:38 -
[60] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:If you want to space lawyer this, I'm not sure that a citizen who attempts to stop a crime in progress is considered a vigilante. Anything that causes a suspect timer is not a crime. It just means CONCORD isn't coming to save you if you mess with someone.
Anything that causes a criminal timer, surprise, surprise, is a crime.
To put it simply: New Eden's laws don't care about can flipping and loot stealing. CONCORD doesn't care about can flipping or loot stealing. They let us capsuleers settle those things amongst ourselves. You were outwitted and weren't able to adequately deal with said situation in a lawful manner so, as I said: Be prepared to fight dirty and go against the laws in pursuit of your own agenda.
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:And the term loses all meaning anyway when law enforcement utterly fails in it's responsibilities. As for the terminology: You've literally described a portion of the definition of the word "Vigilante." So, I would say its meaning is still quite accurate.
/spacelawyer
I voted for Sabriz Adoudel for CSM10. You should too.
www.minerbumping.com
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
116
|
Posted - 2015.03.05 18:27:27 -
[61] - Quote
Zealous Miner wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:If you want to space lawyer this, I'm not sure that a citizen who attempts to stop a crime in progress is considered a vigilante. Anything that causes a suspect timer is not a crime. It just means CONCORD isn't coming to avenge you if you mess with someone. Anything that causes a criminal timer, surprise, surprise, is a crime. To put it simply: New Eden's laws don't care about can flipping or loot stealing. CONCORD doesn't care about can flipping or loot stealing. They allow us capsuleers to settle those petty matters amongst ourselves. You were outwitted and weren't able to adequately deal with said situation in a lawful manner so, as I said: Be prepared to fight dirty and go against the laws in pursuit of your own agenda. You seeing the law as being inadequate or too lenient and the police force responsible in upholding it ineffective, well, brings me to my next point... Demerius Xenocratus wrote:And the term loses all meaning anyway when law enforcement utterly fails in it's responsibilities. The terminology: You've literally described a portion of the definition of the word "Vigilante." So, I would say its meaning is still quite accurate. /spacelawyer
The fact that gankers are able to hide behind current game mechanics does not mean their hauler alts are not involved in the crime. You're arguing semantics when the true state of affairs is obvious.
The term "vigilante" has no meaning in circumstances where law enforcement is demonstrably impotent, in this case because criminals are able to consistently profit from their actions. This is not my opinion, it is a fact which is demonstrated almost daily. CONCORD has no deterrent effect in an environment where one can use alts to eliminate the consequences.
What you have here is a system of arbitrary rules which allows a player or group of players to exchange resources (in the form of ganking ships) for things of much greater tangible and intangible value (victims' reactions, stat padding and potentially huge loot payouts based on RNG), while using those same rules to lock in their risk at a predictable and low level. And this farming operation cannot be countered effectively without mirroring these players' tactics, a state of affairs which is antithetical to the notion of a "sandbox" game.
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Zealous Miner
70
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Posted - 2015.03.05 18:55:36 -
[62] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
The fact that gankers are able to hide behind current game mechanics does not mean their hauler alts are not involved in the crime. You're arguing semantics when the true state of affairs is obvious.
The term "vigilante" has no meaning in circumstances where law enforcement is demonstrably impotent, in this case because criminals are able to consistently profit from their actions. This is not my opinion, it is a fact which is demonstrated almost daily. CONCORD has no deterrent effect in an environment where one can use alts to eliminate the consequences.
Again that is indeed an opinion.
I argue semantics simply because your definition of a criminal act and EVE's and CONCORD's definition of a criminal act are different. Attacking someone is a criminal act. Stealing from them and then laundering the assets is not. It's more akin to a civil dispute. Granted, you may not see eye-to-eye with this, thus vigilantism comes about.
CONCORD acts as a deterrent in that a ganker is guaranteed to always lose their ship. The reason ganking is so profitable is not because law enforcement is so inefficient or incompetent, but because those who are attacked make it so profitable to be attacked in the first place. Freighters without tank filled to the brim with commodities and materials, autopiloting and flying without escort. Many factors, all of which resulted from the victim's own decisions, allow gankers to strike and come out with a pretty penny.
I voted for Sabriz Adoudel for CSM10. You should too.
www.minerbumping.com
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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
23204
|
Posted - 2015.03.05 23:01:22 -
[63] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:The term "vigilante" has no meaning in circumstances where law enforcement is demonstrably impotent, in this case because criminals are able to consistently profit from their actions. How are Concord demonstrably impotent? They have a 100% success rate in respect of punishing crime, I'd love to see a real life law enforcement agency that can boast of a 100% success rate in their remit.
Quote:This is not my opinion, it is a fact which is demonstrated almost daily. CONCORD has no deterrent effect in an environment where one can use alts to eliminate the consequences. Nope that's an opinion, if Concord has no deterrent effect in the environment you describe then how do you explain the people that don't suicide gank because they're deterred by the penalties that Concord dish out, or the loss of sec status etc.
Quote:What you have here is a system of arbitrary rules which allows a player or group of players to exchange resources (in the form of ganking ships) for things of much greater tangible and intangible value (victims' reactions, stat padding and potentially huge loot payouts based on RNG), while using those same rules to lock in their risk at a predictable and low level. Rules and mechanics that apply to everybody.
Red Frog, for example, use the same rules as gankers to lock their risk at a predictable and low level. That people choose not to use the rules to their advantage for whatever reason, is neither here nor there.
Quote: And this farming operation cannot be countered effectively without mirroring these players' tactics, a state of affairs which is antithetical to the notion of a "sandbox" game. Utter tripe.
It's pretty simple to counter gankers. Gankers even tell people how to counter them, but for many it's too much effort to tank their ships, not overload or to actually be at the keyboard.
Not being lazy, complacent or daft is a good start.
"Remember, as a non-combatant, your best tank is being elsewhere." ~ Abrazzar
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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Caim Naberius
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2015.03.06 13:32:03 -
[64] - Quote
The stolen items could be tagged as 'hot items' and be made non-transferrable to other ships/hangars to prevent abuse as Bronson stated. Perhaps a warning sign when someone wants to drop something that's stolen in your Orca, or any other ship( 'Warning, (insert-name) wants to put stolen items in your hangar etc. etc. )
A docking timer for when you've stolen stuff would be another good mechanic change. Now it's too easy to loot wrecks that are in the 0meter range of a station and immediatly dock up. It has made me tons of isks but thinking about it, it is pretty weird and unrealistic...though very profitable.
Screw the suspect-timer, i'm saying bring in the 'thief timer'..makes you grey or something for 30sec, can't transfer the loot to another ship without that ship getting flagged as well, can't dock up and items will be 'laundered' once docked up. Awesome, i deserve a medal.
Having all that said, yes, it's up to the people/capsuleers to try and prevent/help the poor souls that are victims of these evil ganksters(actually it's up to the poor souls themselves, they AFK, AP and be silly). Suicide that freighter wreck before that noobship can transfer it, that don't work? Bump that freighter that's got the stuff and/or get some buddies together and gank that scoundrel! Eye for an eye, fight fire with fire, space bushido, chickennuggets, etc. etc. there are many more ways of countering and even preventing the ganks. It will take effort, intelligence and persistence, something alot of people lack. Long story short ; HTFU and learn from your errors, don't blame somebody else.
Regards,
Caim
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Chenguang Hucel-Ge
Exiled Tech Space Monkey Protectorate
10
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Posted - 2015.03.07 13:12:31 -
[65] - Quote
Bronson Hughes wrote:All kidding aside, having a suspect flag transfer from a ship scooping the loot to a ship with a fleet hangar storing it is a monumentally horrible idea from the standpoint of the miner/hauler/anti-ganking community.
Why?
Well, imagine that you're someone who enjoys a good AWOX and has infiltrated a mining corp. The corp has friendly fire off, so they feel pretty safe in space with the new guy. Assuming that the OP's proposal were implemented, the easiest Orca AWOXes in the world could be achieved by:
1. Get into a mining fleet with an Orca that is allowing you access to their fleet hangar. 2. Have an out-of-corp alt warp to you and drop something next to you. 3. Scoop this loot, suspect flagging yourself, and deposit the loot into the Orca's fleet hangar, suspect flagging the Orca. 4. The alt kills the Orca dead while you warp to safety.
All because the Orca got suspect flagged for something you did, not them.
Suspect flags should not be earned for actions that you did not commit. The potential for abuse is far too great. And I say this as someone who generally runs with their sec status negative.
While it's possible, nothing prevents adding extra requirement of yellow safety on Orca for accepting stolen loot. The question is not technical difficulties, the question is degree of redundancy. Considering existence of such thing as log out timers for guys without PvP/non PvP agression timers? Definitely NOT redundant.
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