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Arian Snow
Minmatar Megalomaniacs at Arms
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Posted - 2006.10.12 00:50:00 -
[1]
So now that the cat is out of the bag. I wonder about Target painters. The nighthawk got a rof boost because the precision bonus wasn't good enough.
Well our (minnie) E-War s**k monkey b***s... Why didn't it get a fix... I mean really I fly the Bellicose for fun once in a while, and the target painter I have eq is just for looks actually! No the Rage Raven argument doesnt fit here, its a caldari ship remember! I dont remember I dont recall I dont have memory of anything at all! |
Jet Collins
Dynamic Endeavors
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Posted - 2006.10.12 13:51:00 -
[2]
I agree and dissagree. Yes the TP is affective bonse for some ships ie the raven and some what the phoon however, and other instances.
So yes it would be nice to have an E-war that is more affective for the minmatar race.
How about this since target paiting so so much better for missles users given them the TP E-war and we will take target jaming ... sounds good to me .
But turly when we where given TP bonses it was least suited for us. We are a race that has the smallest signature radus so that means we are fighting people with large sigs I will will have no problem hitting them as long as are "tracking" is good enough. Bigger sig helps but on a small scale since we are fighing already large tragets with the exception of when we fight Angels.
Now logic would say(which I know eve has very little of) that whatever race fights the republic the most would have the TP bonuse to inlarge our small signatures. EI Amarr or Angels would be the race that has the TP bonuse. So what should the Republics E=war bonuse be? Well I'm not sure but if CCP ever wanted to over all what all races can do for E-war I'm all for it!!
As far as E-war is concered it does well with Pirate factions against Empire factions(races) But the E-war is not good in respect to the inner Empire wars. Cal vs Gal and Amarr vs Minmtar.
So to my knowledge the Pirate factions have good E-war. Some I am not that furmilyar with however so you can let me know if you feel they are not.
Now approprezat E-war for the following. Minmatar Vs Ammarr and Angels Ammarr Vs Minmatar, Bloodraiders? Cal vs Gal and Gustas Gal vs Cal and Serps.
Now its not that simple but its some what of the basics. So with that what do you think the proper E-war should/should have been?
I wouldn;t mind seeing the tracking Disruptors changed a bit though. One for range to kill guns optimal and anouther one to kills tracking.
I think if there was a E-war that was dedicated to only mess up the tracking of weapons this should go to minmatar. We have fast ships with small sigs, doesn't it makes since that we would want to try and minimise our damage.
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Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2006.10.12 13:53:00 -
[3]
Switch Caldari and Minmatar racial EW.
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Pinky Denmark
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Posted - 2006.10.12 15:30:00 -
[4]
Those 1400mm Artillery does better damage on small targets with a painter or two, don't they? Or does signature do nothing for guns and damage?
Pinky
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Tyler Lowe
Minmatar DROW Org Sylph Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.12 16:05:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Pinky Denmark Those 1400mm Artillery does better damage on small targets with a painter or two, don't they? Or does signature do nothing for guns and damage?
Pinky
Very, very little. So little, it's not worth consideration for use with guns over a tracking comp, or even a second tracking comp (and probably less useful than a 3rd tracking comp, even with the stack penalties).
J.A.F.O.
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Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2006.10.12 16:22:00 -
[6]
For increasing chance to hit for turrets it goes something like:
Web > Tracking Computer >>>> Target Painter
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Jet Collins
Dynamic Endeavors
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Posted - 2006.10.12 16:30:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Tyler Lowe
Originally by: Pinky Denmark Those 1400mm Artillery does better damage on small targets with a painter or two, don't they? Or does signature do nothing for guns and damage?
Pinky
Very, very little. So little, it's not worth consideration for use with guns over a tracking comp, or even a second tracking comp (and probably less useful than a 3rd tracking comp, even with the stack penalties).
Particulary when the firg is MWDing right at you... pop. or when its orbiting bang bang mis mis.
Painter will not help much whith any weapon when a frig is MWDing right at you, they die quickly either way. But a paited frig at orbiting close range will do more damage with large missles, than large guns. The bonuse is so small that guns will most always miss orbiting frigs. TP will help more with getting more hits with a BS on a Cruiser and a cruser on a frig. But with good gunnary skills BS will get good hits on crusers and cruisr on frigs anyway.
I think the target painter benifits lower skill point player more than higher skilled pilots. Excpet for those skilled pilots that are using rage torps in a gang with a Bellicos or huginn or 2.
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Nocturnal Avenger
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Posted - 2006.10.12 16:31:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Pinky Denmark Those 1400mm Artillery does better damage on small targets with a painter or two, don't they? Or does signature do nothing for guns and damage?
Pinky
TP does not affect damage from projectiles, lasers or hybrids - only hit probability.
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Reatu Krentor
Minmatar Void Spiders Fate Weavers
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Posted - 2006.10.12 17:21:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Nocturnal Avenger
Originally by: Pinky Denmark Those 1400mm Artillery does better damage on small targets with a painter or two, don't they? Or does signature do nothing for guns and damage?
Pinky
TP does not affect damage from projectiles, lasers or hybrids - only hit probability.
And as a result your damage can increase, just like with missiles your damage can increase.
Potential solution to the current Recon cloak and cyno bug... oh well Rabble rabble ra...(meh) |
Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2006.10.12 17:43:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Azerrad InExile on 12/10/2006 17:44:19
Originally by: Reatu Krentor And as a result your damage can increase, just like with missiles your damage can increase.
Missle damage per hit and damage per second will both increase. Turret damage per second will also increase, but damage per hit will not.
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MaidMarion
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Posted - 2006.10.12 17:50:00 -
[11]
Maybe its just me but when I tried to fit a target painter to cerberus I noticed 0 difference in damage vs frigs etc.
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Heloise ChateauBriande
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Posted - 2006.10.12 18:01:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Azerrad InExile Switch Caldari and Minmatar racial EW.
I don't know if this was intended as a joke but I actually think this could be a good idea. Target painting fits Caldari beautifully and it would overall help balance the strength of these 2 races. Now... I feel that minmatar ships also benefit a great deal from painters (firing in falloff,etc) but this is one change I wouldn't mind seeing and for the record... I fly Caldari these days.
-Helo
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Zing Ashuwanik
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Posted - 2006.10.12 18:19:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Azerrad InExile Edited by: Azerrad InExile on 12/10/2006 17:44:19
Originally by: Reatu Krentor And as a result your damage can increase, just like with missiles your damage can increase.
Missle damage per hit and damage per second will both increase. Turret damage per second will also increase, but damage per hit will not.
Doesn't sig radius versus tracking figure in for the quality of the hit? (wrecking, et al) So not only do you have a better chance of hitting on the new sig radius, but also hitting harder?
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Raivi
Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2006.10.12 18:26:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Zing Ashuwanik
Doesn't sig radius versus tracking figure in for the quality of the hit? (wrecking, et al) So not only do you have a better chance of hitting on the new sig radius, but also hitting harder?
As far as I've been able to gather, the calculations that determine the quality of the hit (glancing, wrecking, so on) are made before the sig radius calculations are made. So distance and transversal affect it, but not radius.
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Serapis Aote
TBC
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Posted - 2006.10.12 18:27:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Serapis Aote on 12/10/2006 18:27:34
Originally by: Azerrad InExile Switch Caldari and Minmatar racial EW.
I actually think minnie shoud gallente bonus (dampers) kinda of goes with the hit and run tactics of the race
caldari get minnie bonus - why, caldari will actually benefit from the bonus.
and gallente get caldari bonus. hell they already all use it, lets just make it part of the game that they should.
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Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2006.10.12 18:33:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Zing Ashuwanik Doesn't sig radius versus tracking figure in for the quality of the hit? (wrecking, et al) So not only do you have a better chance of hitting on the new sig radius, but also hitting harder?
Its not very well documented, but from the tracking guide it seems like signature radius of the target vs signature resolution of the turret only affects the chance to hit. Tests in game seem to confirm that, for example:
Take an interceptor (sig res ~40m) and shoot at a battleship (sig radius ~400m)... If the sig radius affected the quality of hit, you would expect to get many more wrecking hits vs. the battleship than if you were shooting at a cruiser/frig with small sig radius. However, that doesn't seem to be the case.
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Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2006.10.12 18:40:00 -
[17]
In regards to the switching idea...
Target painters aren't all that terrible atm. The main problem with them and Minmatar is that they give most Minmtar ships next to zero bonus and are thus pretty useless. The closest thing Minmatar have to a missle ship is probably the Typhoon/Huginn (Rapier? I get those confused easily) and even those only have 1/2 of their slots dedicated to missle launchers. If Minmatar had some dedicated missle boats, target painters might make more sense as their racial EW, but as it stands target painters work alot better for Caldari.
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Reatu Krentor
Minmatar Void Spiders Fate Weavers
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Posted - 2006.10.12 19:25:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Azerrad InExile In regards to the switching idea...
Target painters aren't all that terrible atm. The main problem with them and Minmatar is that they give most Minmtar ships next to zero bonus and are thus pretty useless. The closest thing Minmatar have to a missle ship is probably the Typhoon/Huginn (Rapier? I get those confused easily) and even those only have 1/2 of their slots dedicated to missle launchers. If Minmatar had some dedicated missle boats, target painters might make more sense as their racial EW, but as it stands target painters work alot better for Caldari.
Target painters don't just help missiles. Target painters aren't the equal of the tracking computer for missiles. Target painters increase signature radius of the target which make the target easier to target (take less time to get a lock), easier to track(quality and amount of hits improves for turrets) and missiles have an easier time hitting. Faster to lock, that can be noticed by everyone that targets it after it is painted. Missiles doing more damage per hit(and as a result more dps) is also pretty straight forward. That turrets hit the target better is not very obvious, as it is included in the general calculation if it will hit or not. That it does help I'm convinced of that, Using a target painter on my tempest does improve the quality of hits(When using painter I've noticed an increase in the amounts of wrecking hits when checking the logs). I do think however that the bonus the EW-ships of the Minmatar get to target painters is insufficient and should be increased to make it worthwhile to actually have a Bellicose(or Vigil) on the field painting targets. Potential solution to the current Recon cloak and cyno bug... oh well Rabble rabble ra...(meh) |
Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2006.10.12 19:42:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Reatu Krentor Target painters increase signature radius of the target which make the target easier to target (take less time to get a lock)
This is somewhat circular reasoning since you have to already have a lock to use the target painter. While it will help ships that don't already have a lock, the effect will be negligable since they will most likely already be partly done with their locking cycle and with the stacking penalty you can only push the sig radius of a ship so high.
Originally by: Reatu Krentor easier to track(quality and amount of hits improves for turrets)
Tracking is completely seperate from sig rad/sig res. While the affects multiply together, tracking is solely dependent on transversial velocity and the tracking of your gun. Also I'm not convinced that sig rad/sig res has any affect whatsoever on quality of hit. If it did you should see lots of wrecking/excellent hits when you shoot a battleship with a frig since the sig rad is about 10x larger.
Originally by: Reatu Krentor and missiles have an easier time hitting.
Missles hit for more damage, not more easily.
Originally by: Reatu Krentor Faster to lock, that can be noticed by everyone that targets it after it is painted. Missiles doing more damage per hit(and as a result more dps) is also pretty straight forward.
Agreed.
Originally by: Reatu Krentor That turrets hit the target better is not very obvious, as it is included in the general calculation if it will hit or not. That it does help I'm convinced of that, Using a target painter on my tempest does improve the quality of hits(When using painter I've noticed an increase in the amounts of wrecking hits when checking the logs).
I would have to guess that this is due to confirmation bias. Unless you have performed a thorough analysis comparing the quality of hits with and without target painters I seriously doubt that it is true. While CCP hasn't really explained the entire formula, the evidence from the tracking guide seems to agree that sig rad/sig res only affects the chance to hit and not the quality of hit. If target painters do affect hit chance, can you explain why frig guns don't constantly do wrecking/excellent hits on battleships when the sig rad of the battleships is 10x the sig res of the frigates guns?
Originally by: Reatu Krentor I do think however that the bonus the EW-ships of the Minmatar get to target painters is insufficient and should be increased to make it worthwhile to actually have a Bellicose(or Vigil) on the field painting targets.
Target painters could probably use a boost in general, but I still think it makes more sense for as a racial EW for Caldari than Minmatar.
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