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JPFAmarr
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Posted - 2003.10.30 03:46:00 -
[1]
I've now read a lot of posts in this forum from agent runners that are pretty upset about recent agent changes. Here is my two cents on the subject.
In Eve you can spend your game time in many ways to advance your character. There are several big ways to spend you time but I'll just focus on some of the more popular career paths.
Mining - The rules from mining are pretty straight forward. You can do the AFK thing in 1.0 space and make okay ISK/hour not even playing. Or, you can put a gun on and go for some empire space mining in > 0.5 systems and make even better money mining with a small team. Very low risk but much better return than AFK 1.0. Or, you can put a team together and go deep-space Bistot mining. Higher risk even better rewards. Probably the most popular career path in Eve in mining.
Farming - Go find an NPC spawn you can handle, don't kill the last rat, and keep shooting them for as long as you want. Start small in a frigate with some low level rats or load-up and head to a 0.0 edge system with a battleship and make even more money. Pickup and recycle the loot with an indy friend and make even more. Another very popular career path.
One very important fact to consider about mining and farming is that day-in, day-out your can determine largely the return on your time invested. You can mine Veldspar for a day and calculate the return and/or do farming and run the numbers to figure out what you make. In the end you have a clear idea of expected return on your time. You can therefore evaluate and improve your time spent.
(Continued...)
Generic Corporation |
JPFAmarr
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Posted - 2003.10.30 03:59:00 -
[2]
Edited by: JPFAmarr on 30/10/2003 04:31:11
Agent - Another popular career path. Pick you faction/corp and work your way up. Agents, up until the implant patch, offered three things of interest. 1) ISK rewards, 2) faction improvements, and 3) services like security improvements etc. From an ISK/hour perspective agent running was very poor relative to mining and farming. But, agents held the promise of bigger better things tomorrow. So many people invested in them and continue to do so today.
So what's the problem?
IMHO the problem is two fold 1) because of the "randomness" of agent rewards it is very difficult to determine the value per hour of doing anything with an agent. Sure, I can look at the straight ISK / hour but it is VERY VERY low compared to the other big careers in Eve. So the payout needs to come in other ways. Recently the big payout/reward for agent runners has been implants and the 4 BPs. When the implant/BP patch went live I'm guessing we had a lot more people reevaluate the reward of doing agents and started investing time with them. Issue 2) the "tweaking" of agents and changing the goals. So you started agents based on what other agent runners reported in the forums. You've now literally invested weeks of time earning crappy income to work toward the big payout of a BP and once you get a couple hundred or two missions under your belt...bing...agent system changed and now you have no idea what your return will be and/or if your time has been wasted thus far. Issue 3) The elimination or switching off of entire faction agents. Similar to #2 but even more frustrating in that you didn't get implants and/or BP drops and now you get nothing (actually unclear what will happen to these poor folks).
The result...player frustration. Morkt hits on this issue a lot in his post and I want to also underscore the same issue. 1) agent rewards need to be predictable and consisten from player-to-player varying but stats (i.e, not random role between 150-500 missions) and 2) agent rewards can't be a moving target.
(Continued...)
Generic Corporation |
JPFAmarr
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Posted - 2003.10.30 04:24:00 -
[3]
Edited by: JPFAmarr on 30/10/2003 04:39:47
Edited by: JPFAmarr on 30/10/2003 04:34:13
Edited by: JPFAmarr on 30/10/2003 04:32:24
Had I known now what I know I would have not suggested anyone in our corp do agents. Why?
1) Misbalanced rewards vs. other careers. Better to farm or mine that do agents to earn cash.
2) Misbalanced rewards within agent system. Sorry Amarr - Charisma implants and not so good BP. Happy Minmatar - Great BP. Happy whomever's agent drop perception implants. You rock!
3) Invested time may never pay off because even if you know the typical payout it may be changed and your time invested will be lost or of unknown value for an unknown amount of time. I.e., no Jove agents, you may never get a BP.
So what needs to change. How can we keep agent runners happy and still "fix" things along the lines the developers have suggested.
#1 Grandfather in existing BP rewards and tighten drop range. This is a no-brainer in my view. People have been working their butts off on these. It is simply unfair to see someone get them at 251 missions and then the next guy having done 2x and not get them. Worse yet to move the bar higher for those still working to get them. If this "fix" is to limit the amount of BP copies/item hitting the market then I suggest you look at the market. It simply doesn't matter now. These 4 BPs are out there enough and the market price for the item is getting crushed every day. The "fix" is simply to late. You won't save the market and you'll simply anger agent runners that want to get their payout from their work thus far to reach this particular goal. Now, having said that, I'm perfectly happy that on future new/different BP/BPC drops that the bar is different. Seems fair because going in we'd know this but don't pull the rug out under the existing BP missions by changing the rules thus far.
#2 For those poor folks that have CONCORD or Jove agents I'd suggest giving them new agents with like standing with like faction relationships. Hard yes, but they should not lose ground. If CONCORD and Jove agents are to be locked then give then lock their corp standing and give them a new similar agent. Secondly, they should be back compensated for implant and BP drops. Whatever the stats are if they've done X missions that would yield them Y implants then they should get Y random implants. Likewise, drop them a random BP of the 4 types if they've done the work to get a BP.
Summary
- Make agent work consistent such that players can fairly evaluate time invested vs. other careers in Eve.
- Don't change the rules mid-way through the game. Better to fix it on the next BP drop vs. the existing ones.
- Don't let players persue a dead-end path. If it was a mistake then reward then in an equivalent way vs. other that didn't pick the dead-end path.
Finally a general comment. There needs to be some more transparency into the agent system. I understand that the developers what the players to discover things but more concrete information won't kill that fun. We as players will still poke around to figure things out but we just need a peek through the looking glass every now and then. Without this it just seems agent runners will become more and more frustrated by what appears to be complete randomness as to agent payout/rewards and developer "fixes" regarding agents.
Sorry for the multipost rant. Hope the input helps.
Generic Corporation |
Hizac Neutin
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Posted - 2003.10.30 12:48:00 -
[4]
One other point of note:
Other career paths have a variety of skills related to that career.
An NPC farmer can train a multitude of skills to increase the killing capacity and hence increase rewards by killing harder NPCs.
A miner can train up skills related to mining that will improve their income.
Those who choose agent missions have only the social skill. Where are the skills that players serious on agent missions can buy/acquire and train up?
Traders have the same problem, but it's far easier to make cash by trading than by running agent missions.
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Conrad
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Posted - 2003.10.30 13:03:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Conrad on 30/10/2003 13:05:30
I can not agreed more with you JPF!
Personally, the implants were nearly worth the missions, and the bp were worth it. However, since no one in this game appears to know business, CCP steps in. They had to do this with eliminating two mega-cyte roids and severly limiting bistot. Why? Because no one likes to keep the price of something STABLE!!!! 
I suppose CCP expected that people would meet and discuss the price of certain items in hopes of PVP interaction but the only stable price I've seen is battleships, which I hope continues, because if it doesn't, producers will make no isk!
Miner 2s should never have hit as low as they did considering all the work done. So with that said, I"m calling a meeting with all miner 2 BP owners to try to set a fixed price, please attend this meeting on Tuesday, 18:00 GMT time in: "Miner 2 Discussion" channel, to discuss the future of the miner 2 on the market!!!
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Zugg
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Posted - 2003.10.30 13:28:00 -
[6]
You forgot to mention gettign forked over by the randomness of refferals.
For example I have 7 agents from the same corporation. I have a total of 133 missions done for that one corporation. I have two level 2s and 5 level 1s. A relationship of 4.71 to the corporation (over 4.00 due to pre-agent cap missions.
Despite the fact I have done 44 missions for one level 2 and he gave me a level 1 agent at 30 missions mark. The other level 2 has 30 missions done and no refferals. Meanwhile I have a level 1 agent that gave out a agent at 11 (level 1),30 (level 1),33 (level 1), and 36 (level 2.) I still can not get a level 3 agent from that corporation. The corporation has many level three and four listed.
Now overall I have done 230 or so missions. Which is quite the time investment. Yet I am still stuck doing the crap missions that do not pay jack.
Almost every time after I spend a couple hours doing missions. I think to myself, what am I really accomplishing? Implant missions? Not really I could go mine and have already bought many implants. Nevermind that it requires a level three agent. Is it the cash? Hell no, I can make more cash just farming NPC pirates or mining. How about realtions? Hell no again. I am screwed over on gaining relations due to the maximum caps agents of level 1 and 2 can affect. So basically all I end up with is just the thought of what did I spend my time doing?
About the only useful thing is getting the random docking agents. Why is it useful? Simply because that is one less garbage agent that I can be reffered to as a refferal. Most my level 1 refferal agents accepted clients by simply docking. If I can get an agent like that simply docking, what was the point in running missions? I could have gone and docked at all the stations in the region and got those agents faster.
The agent rewards are there. Implants, BPs, and even level 2 missions that pay 100k. Yet they are based on a system that is far too random to make it a decent payoff.
Missions, agents, refferals, and rewards need a better system based on what you have done for a corporation. Not simply because someone got lucky with the random garbage refferals and got a level 3 agent quickly. Which has been the case with quite a few people that never even bothered doing missions until there was a reward like implants and BPs.
The Dark Seraphs...like Hells Angels, but less hairy |
Hizac Neutin
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Posted - 2003.10.30 14:22:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Hizac Neutin on 30/10/2003 14:26:15
 Quote:
You forgot to mention gettign forked over by the randomness of refferals.
In general my referrals are like this: 25 to 35 missions from lvl1 to lvl2, 65 to 75 missions from lvl2 to lvl3. I have Cha 14, Social 5. If I get no referrals after 95 lvl2 missions, I change corp. Some agents will not refer you to a lvl3 it seems.
Quote:
So basically all I end up with is just the thought of what did I spend my time doing?
I see it that I spent my time to gain agents capable of a variety of things: rumours (laughable at the moment), sec status fixing and location services.
Quote:
About the only useful thing is getting the random docking agents.
The new patch should fix this by allowing you to see all the available agents on docking at a station. Faction gained with a corp applies to all the agents in the corp.
The mad rush for implants turned me off agent missions - you're right I could mine and buy the implants quicker than doing those agent missions, and at the same time won't need to read the forum posts "waaagh where's my implant?"
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Mischief
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Posted - 2003.10.30 18:36:00 -
[8]
JPF's post sums up the present situation perfectly. As one who has over 500 missions logged for my Jove agents it states exactly my present feeling with regards to the way this has been handled.
I sincerely hope they put a little more thought into how they will adress this issue.
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Zugg
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Posted - 2003.10.31 14:04:00 -
[9]
Well here is another thought for you.
Some missions give those stupid armor modules. What use are they? How does that armor help do more missions in any way? Why not have useful rewards for mission runners. Things like cargo expanders, afterburners, overdrives, and other misc useful stuff for missions.
I ean really. Miners make cash then go buy mining drones, mining lasers, and hull expanders. Hunters kill ships and collect weapons and modules that are very useful to them. Yet the mission runners get trash items except the big prizes only after weeks of work.
Now I have yet to complain about where is my implant. Simply because I already know I got screwed the day they decided to make certain factions give each ones out, instead of it being random. I just dont see how it can be considered fair to have X agent give out only Y implant. All the work I have done prior to implant patch was in amarr space, so I get a whooping charisma implant. One I already bought, really cheap, any guesses why? Unless I want to pick up relocate, and start all over.
The Dark Seraphs...like Hells Angels, but less hairy |
Hizac Neutin
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Posted - 2003.10.31 15:41:00 -
[10]
Quote:
those stupid armor modules. What use are they?
I fully agree. What use are 2000 iron charge S?
The agent loot drops are pointless. Like you I missed out on the initial free-for-all implant missions, and soon after I stopped doing agent missions.
Perhaps if they change the loot bonus tables to something useful there might be less complaining. I certainly would be happier.
However there's hope that the next patch will fix the loot problems, though this can be fixed using a server-side hot-fix...
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Otter Man
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Posted - 2003.10.31 16:28:00 -
[11]
Thanks for telling me "not" to run Agent missions... JPF...
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Lord Panther
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Posted - 2003.11.02 03:53:00 -
[12]
Quote:
You forgot to mention gettign forked over by the randomness of refferals.
Despite the fact I have done 44 missions for one level 2 and he gave me a level 1 agent at 30 missions mark. The other level 2 has 30 missions done and no refferals. Meanwhile I have a level 1 agent that gave out a agent at 11 (level 1),30 (level 1),33 (level 1), and 36 (level 2.) I still can not get a level 3 agent from that corporation. The corporation has many level three and four listed.
Now overall I have done 230 or so missions. Which is quite the time investment. Yet I am still stuck doing the crap missions that do not pay jack.
Your problem is that referrals aren't given out by how many missions are run for a particular corp. They are based on how many missions you've run for the agent who is giving out the referrals.
If you had stuck with just one of the level 2 agents you'd probably have a level 3 referral by now.
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Mars Mar
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Posted - 2003.11.02 10:10:00 -
[13]
I think it's a b*tch to do an agent career. I did it myself the first weeks I played but quitted quite fast when I got some money to go around with. I switched to the trading career instead.
Now, I think that there's a point in not letting the agents missions to be profitable. Those who do agent mission have absolutely no pvp interaction. I think this game already consits of to much npc stuff. The player missions should be easier and more profitable todo instead.
My advice to all agent lovers is to find a good active corp, don't have to be big but active and go out on corp mining and hunting and stuff. That's eve!
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Zugg
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Posted - 2003.11.02 13:25:00 -
[14]
Lord Panther, I know that is my problem of why I do not have a level 3. It is also the same flaw in the agent system.
Corporation standings are taken into effect, but, that hardly shows true amount of work for that corporation. Simply because if you only have four level 1s with that corporation it does not matter how much work you did for those four because you are still limited to a max of 2.00 for standings. The same could be applied for other levels as well.
I took a different approach to agent missions. This was long before tthere was any real rewards like implants. I got a new agent, I went and worked for the new agent until he reffered me to another. I went for the larger amount of agents quicker.
For example if I got refferals to all the levels ones before using level 2s it should reduce the chances of getting level 1 agents from level 2 agents.
Now the agent system has changed to where it pays more to keep going back to the same agent repeatedly. Instead of going for the variety of services offered.
The Dark Seraphs...like Hells Angels, but less hairy |
Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.11.02 22:03:00 -
[15]
The greatest shame of the agent system, outside of the problems noted above, si that they don't in any way help shape, or draw shape from, the storyline.
That was always their intended role.. and it isn't happening.
This alls tems from the likes of Concord Minmatar agents selling slaves... until such monumentally massive and glaring errors are removed there will enver be immersion.
Until immersion is created from the agent system (involving all aspects of rewards matching service, race, religion and Corporation) then it will remain a totally dull fed-ex experience.
I should be getting highly rewarding Lai-Dai missions to steal/find Suukoveesta protein bits and find out wth is going on...instead i get four hundred fed-ex missions and a shield amp bp that is next to worthless and has entered the universe without so much as a
"By the way look what somebody invented..."
This is not the stuff of legends... and yet the backstory and POTWs are so rich, well written and full.
Damn shame to lose all that capacity and capability to write-in such elements before the talent leaves CCP (or the customers do).
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Goldar Hektu
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Posted - 2003.11.03 01:36:00 -
[16]
I agree with most of what you said, Morkt. The complete lack of involvement in the storyline beyond "We're preparing to invade.." is ridiculous.
However, there was a news item long ago about corruption within Concord, so I see Minmatar Concord agents selling slaves as consistent with the dark atmosphere of Eve. Neither his race nor his faction is a guarantee he's not a slime-ball.
For me, the worst part of the Concord and Jove agent situation is the promise of "fair compensation" on the standings. I've cultivated my standings through Concord with a specific character idea and strategy in mind. I don't care that I've never an implant or a BP from them. I don't even care much that I've put in a lot of missions for agents who are pretty stingy on referrals. My entire reason for working Concord agents was the faction standings, now I'm going to lose that.
Your 150mm Railgun II perfectly strikes Serpentis Drug Baron, wrecking for 192.8 damage. |
Zugg
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Posted - 2003.11.03 12:56:00 -
[17]
I finally got an agent that actually would sell me slaves that works. So I buy some slaves. Next thing I know buying slaves was totally counter productive to agents. Each tranaction worsened my factions, including the selling agents faction.
My Caldari faction was at 2.96-3.00 then i bought 6 offers of slaves from my Caldari Agent. My Caldari faction dropped to 2.70.
What is the point of having an agent that sells 5 slaves at a time and drops you faction rating to their own faction so quickly?
The Dark Seraphs...like Hells Angels, but less hairy |
Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.11.03 13:06:00 -
[18]
Quote:
However, there was a news item long ago about corruption within Concord, so I see Minmatar Concord agents selling slaves as consistent with the dark atmosphere of Eve. Neither his race nor his faction is a guarantee he's not a slime-ball.
YEs there was a news item but it was never carried through - there was no tangible effect, and that lessens botht he news, immersion and agent system.
THe problem is that we "know" that minmatar concord agents selling slaves isnt a way to paint one chracter as an evil minmatar - its just an oversight.
When that changes so that individual agent is there deliberately, then I might start having some faith.
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Jenh Kiami
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Posted - 2003.11.04 06:43:00 -
[19]
I don't think all "careers" should have predictable profits. That would really just drain more fun out of an already struggling game.
And why try so hard to change the system just because someone else got their BP 50 missions earlier than you. I've never received anything good from agents yet, but I'm willing to pay my dues to get it. I think this is more proof that people don't really want to play the game, they just want stuff handed to them without working for it. |
Vordicae
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Posted - 2003.11.04 13:11:00 -
[20]
Jenh .. Have you really 'read ANY of the above posts ?
I've not done a single agent mission yet, because as far as I can see the system is broken and I have better things to do with my time than run bits of ore from system to system for 10k isk.
but there are guys here who have over 400 missions complete and have ' put the work in' as you say.
the game is supposed to be fun above all else, these folks seem to be putting in a harder days work doing missions than most of the boys I know at home in RL jobs ! and seem to get nothing but frustration and aggro and stupid flames from alts for their time and effort.
now bog off back to the new citizens board and let the big boys get on with what they do best eh ?!
cheers
ps. I'm a noob too and don't give a rats ass what you say in reply :)
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In space .. no-one can hear you munching crisps
in the back seat of your Hauler !
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Show me the money |
Mr Smith
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Posted - 2003.11.04 17:17:00 -
[21]
I have about 50 agent mission run total. Only 1 level 2 agent.
I only run missions to take a break from hunting or mining. The system as it is now needs a huge amount of work before it become a viable way to make money or even have a little fun in EVE.
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Zugg
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Posted - 2003.11.05 08:33:00 -
[22]
Here is a good exmaple of how the refferal system is screwed up.
In my region I work for Kaaliatkota corporation. I have been doing mostly missions for that one corporation. I have every level 1 and level 2 agent in the region. I ran well over 200 missions total for that one corporation. Fianally after 72 missions for one of the three level 2 agents I get a level 3 agent. Yet this agent is in another corporation I did not even have an agent for, and I am closing in on about 30 agents from various corporations.
I know what your thinking, I got a level 3 so what is the problem? The problem is two things.
The first is for the amount of work done for the same corporation it should have been slightly easier to get a level 3 agent. By the looks of it everyone gets a level 3 agent around 66-80 missions on the average. Including people who rejected or failed missions. Most of those people probably had about 120 missions on the average done to get that agent.
The second being all that work I did for that corporation went to waste. From what I have seen and heard your level 3 agents are totally random for what corporation you get them from. So even going back and finishing off my other two level 2 agents does not give me much of a chance to get an agent from that same corporation. So what good did it do having a good standing with that corporation?
Maybe when all is said and done with the slated agent improvements things might get better for those sticking with one corporation or those going for a broad selection of agents.
Then again some of those upcoming changes are going to make agent missions pay even less. Agents are no longer going to pay high prices for items. The other changes being those with good standings (however they got them) are going to get better agents, whether they done agent missions or not.
The Dark Seraphs...like Hells Angels, but less hairy |
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