250km is some time a offgrid distance, grid manipulation mechanics and other edge-mechanics; i think is better close range to 50km is good .

what is it about the concept "the interceptor can travel at will and disengage at will" are you chuckleheads failing to grasp

Will an active Entosis Link prevent cloaking?

how do you close on an interceptor before it burns off grid exactly

hint: they go fast, can't be bubbled, and scrams have a very short range on anything that can keep up with them

this is not how grid fu works

you can only do this if there is no one else on grid holding it open

grid fu will never cause a stationary ship to suddenly slip out of a grid through no fault of its own

why do you keep repeating the part about stopping the capture when we keep telling you that isn't where our concerns lie

hell I will repeat it

the issue is the ability for the interceptor to run away once a force comes to stop it, the fact that it cannot be killed outside of serious pilot error

also you seem to have a funny concept of how distances work

hint: 110km > 100km

As I said its not Grr Goons, but when you are off on campaign one strategic option a defender has is to do a rush assault on your space and the interceptors would enable this. I meant to explain this in detail, but with the censoring I keep getting I was loath to write it all out.

Only the largest alliances really have a chance of holding even a single region when faced with opportunistic and agile enemies.

yeah i gotta agree that using a third party blog site audio interview as the primary conduit for actual details regarding the new sov initiative is pretty awful

yeah actually i do find it pretty tiring to have to slog through two hours of crap in order to unearth the nuggets of information i need to actually be able to play the game because there is some fear or impotence in the arena of even echoing the information on the official communications mechanisms

You and what army is going to force the 5 of us who actually log in with our 6000 accounts each into what constellation?

how do you close on an interceptor before it burns off grid exactly

hint: they go fast, can't be bubbled, and scrams have a very short range on anything that can keep up with them

interceptors don't generate fights

you counter an interceptor at one capture node / sov structure and it just shrugs and goes to another one

nothing warps faster than an interceptor so enjoy spewing logarithmically increasing numbers of evemannen to bore out a single interceptor

would like to see some eft fits/graphs of any of those tracking an interceptor at long range (150km or so)

deklein is the most populous and densest region in eve with the best indexes so i am not sure where you are going with this

your lack of experience with goonswarm federation's SOP is showing

the fact that we can easily do exactly this is immaterial to the point

nothing as it effortlessly burns outside of that range due to dscan, warp deceleration, and crappy lock time on the smallest signature ship in the game

ah yes the cormorant with its staggering 80-100km range

it's mostly the risk part that is the issue, generating logarithmically increasing amounts of work is much less defensible considering the stated aims of the sov revamp to break up existing holdings

"we don't do pvp, because we always lose"

i'm plenty fine with this concept as long as the attacker is able to be caught and executed in a situation discounting serious pilot error

interceptors do not fit this category, and the fact that they can generate this logarithmically increasing amount of work at a minimum of cost and risk bodes much more poorly for the rest of eve than it does for us

like seriously that deklein is, by far, the most inhabited and used region is an objective easily proven fact like that the sky is blue

trying to argue anything else just makes you look like an idiot even to npc posters supporting trollceptors

you just bring interceptors to contest the capture node pimples too

yeah sometimes you have to wait up to thirty minutes for a terrible membercorp to use the ya0 beacon

uh you start moving the interceptor out of range if a caracal waddles onto grid, you don't just sit there and take it on the chin

caracal RLML misl takes 12 seconds to hit the target, at which point the interceptor has burned an additional 60km on the caracal

missiles don't hit if the target moves out of their effective range while the missiles are in flight

the point of the trollceptor isn't to effortlessly cap any objective, it's to cause an immense, logarithmically increasing amount of work for defenders while shouldering zero risk

it's mostly the risk part that is the issue, generating logarithmically increasing amounts of work is much less defensible considering the stated aims of the sov revamp to break up existing holdings

the only rebuttal I have seen from the pro-trollceptor crowd is little (wrong) vignettes about how easy it is to stop one ship from capturing one objective, when the problem is that it can hit any objective it wants without risk

except generate so many more timers that the pure chaff makes targeting the actual point of defense impossible

ah yes the cormorant with its staggering 80-100km range

you don't capture command nodes, you go to other systems and generate more initial RF timers while the defenders are busy whacking pimples

complaining about posting is usually the first sign that you've lost control of the conversation

so one uncatchable attacker should require five or more people to counter then eh

this is where you've lost the thread

at no point is goonswarm federation interested in good fights

defense of our empire comes first, subjugation of those who would even think of attacking our empire comes second, subjugation of everyone else comes third

fights occasionally occur in the process of completing these two objectives but are completely tangential to our desires and goals

combat probes show up on dscan

the interceptor gets to disengage before you even start aligning for warp in your slow ass destroyers

orbiting a target would be extremely stupid in a trollceptor, you want to sit at a point far away from any celestials and burn at an angle off grid

your assumption is that i would want to stay on grid to try to capture the objective when an obvious anti-interceptor ship waddles into dscan range

at that point the objective is already lost and the primary objective is to escape

you leave the system and abuse your best-in-class warp speed to get to another beacon

your assumption is that i would want to stay on grid to try to capture the objective when an obvious anti-interceptor ship waddles into dscan range

at that point the objective is already lost and the primary objective is to escape

While brawling doctrines would be far from optimal I think the HIC will see a fair bit of use as an Entosis platform from smaller groups.

Bubble up to hopefully catch reinforcements you're not getting reps anyway.

agreed, they have managed to defend that one objective in significantly less agile ships

now the interceptor is RFing something else, better waddle out at 3 AU/s to the next beacon or bring a logarithmically increasing number of defenders to stop one person

i hear that successfully defending one objective counts as defending the whole of your space when you have more than one system

here comes that "you must bring a logarithmically increasing number of dudes to counter the efforts of one person in a throwaway, yet uncatchable ship" thing again

except that the defending ceptor has to also root himself at the beacon for 2 minutes while the attacker's link falls off, giving him a headstart to the next beacon

more, because the small alliance caps out faster than a large alliance does

goonswarm federation lives in deklein and can successfully withstand a higher degree of ceptor beacon spam than a smaller alliance trying to do the same

um constellations have at minimum five systems, and with three objectives each that is fifteen dudes to counter one dude

and the interceptor is not hardlocked into defending that system

if you had to actually risk something to necessitate this response I'd have no issues with it

the interceptor just disengages if any of those things somehow managed to waddle onto field in defiance of an interceptor's superior warp speed

what is it about the concept "the interceptor can travel at will and disengage at will" are you chuckleheads failing to grasp

you're talking about capture node pimples, not the initial rf timer, which is all that i have ever been talking about throughout this entire thread

it's an issue because you can't stop the attacking interceptor in any meaningful fashion from doing this every single day

if someone is being a nuisance it should be mechanically possible to stop him from being a nuisance, i feel like this is a reasonable request

avoid obvious choke points, fit tank, limit the amount you are carrying, and stay dimly aware of things like Burn Jita and you will never get ganked

you're talking about capture node pimples, not the initial rf timer, which is all that i have ever been talking about throughout this entire thread

what does the tcu have to do with it, you can make timers for ihubs and stations too

if anything the tcu is the least vulnerable to trollceptors

it's a nuisance for any alliance who does not overwhelmingly outnumber the people attacking them

guess who has the most numbers in eve

hint: it's us

Is it true that using a Entosis Link on a sovereignty structure will NOT display any notifications to the players of the alliance owning the structure unless they are in the system under attack? Because, if so, it would highly disengage players from defending their space rather than engage them to undock and go defend their space.
Some big alliances will used their existing IT infrastructure to query the API for such events, but even so, this information will probably be 10 minus late, if even available to normal players (think FC, Directors, CEO only). While there is the question whether you want small scale sovereignty attacks to be dependable with or without FCs, in order to get more people engaged, the attack notifications should be instantaneous and to all players in the alliance owning the structure under attack.

when i can topple the entire post by refuting its primary fulcrum with a minimum of effort i will usually choose that option

the problem is entirely trollceptors

the fact that we can safeguard our empire is immaterial to the fact that we cannot stop a single person from generating an insane amount of work that must be responded to in every single instance or you risk losing your ihub

uh yes, the defender absolutely has to respond to the pimples in every single instance

you're talking about capture node pimples, not the initial rf timer, which is all that i have ever been talking about throughout this entire thread

like i am basically repeating the same thing over and over because y'all keep circling around these same few talking points without actually refuting what i am saying

i could set up a perl script to win the thread at this point

WTB griffin or maulus with 250km lock range

the sov pimples in this discussion strictly serve as the punishment for not dedicating a disproportionate amount of manpower to countering a single trollceptor every single day

you're talking about capture node pimples, not the initial rf timer, which is all that i have ever been talking about throughout this entire thread

arguing semantics doesn't really help you here

I'll quit yanking your chain now, because yes, you make it easy.

However you posted this...

Quote:
because if we can reduce the headache for us and make the system actually livable for people who are not us we achieve what we in the biz like to call "objective benefit"

we can occasionally get what we want without it necessarily coming at the expense of everyone else, weird as it is to see written
End Quote


I will be the first to state that on a very LARGE number of occasions Goons have spoken out against certain mechanics and proposed changes even with those changes might have benefited them (or at least hurt them less extensively than others) if they felt those changes would harm the game overall.

And on those many, frequent, occasions I applaud you... often adding my personal support when you were being dismissed by most as merely trolling or seeking to feather your own nest.

I'll also state that I'm not fond of how frequently cepters will be used to troll sov if left as things are now. I much prefer it require at least a little more commitment (not much though). Ceptor hunting is just an irritating way to spend time.

However, the plus side of easily being able to take sov from someone if they can't put up at least a token resistance (one ship per contested unit) is huge... in fact, it is necessary. Finding the correct balance point is the tricky part.

However, if you continue to pose your arguments as :

We want good fights.
Using ceptors doesn't generate good fights.
Using ceptors against us won't work.
If we take YOUR sov we'll use ceptors, because otherwise there would be a good fight...

Then you'll continue to look silly and self serving.

Other entities, large and small, are well able to defend sov assets from mass ceptor sperges... assuming they haven't bitten off more sov than they can hold. You have zero advantage in that department.

I'm quite sure you can cover more territory than most anyone else, and you well deserve that... but don't try to convince folks that your ceptor spam will be a threat to anyone other than those that bite off more sov than they can cover.

Your main threat to other peoples sov is your main combat fleet, as it should be. Ceptor spam is relatively meaningless for anyone but other large entities that over reach themselves.

obviously i can't do 250km, nor did i ever state that you could

you don't need to lock to 250km to be effective

a malediction's 110km is plenty of buffer

both of these suffer from the problem where the ship attacking the interceptor is somehow able to keep the interceptor inside of its optimal at any point

interceptors get to, y'know, move, especially when they see long range turret ships on dscan

eft warrioring is nice and all but attacking ships that politely sit inside a turret wielding ship's optimal just doesn't happen when the targeted ship can move freely

i move to another objective

okay? i am still out there generating timers, demanding a response while not being actually catchable while you have to recap, find where I am, and waddle your ass out there with your crappy warp speed

yes but your stubborn refusal to admit reality is not an argument, it's just you sticking your fingers in your ears and posting loudly

every solution to interceptors proposed by the "how dare you make me risk a ship" crew leads inexorably to a bore-off because there is no other means of stopping interceptor raids because the ships are not at risk unless the pilot passes out

interceptor disengages and goes to new objective

it cannot be killed

What MASSADEATH pretends is somehow like Cuba invading USA.
You blame a group of people for being more organized, more rich and, basically, more people than your group.

if moa was so organized then why did they fail to participate even in a token fashion in cfc pvp objectives during their short stay in the cfc

anoms are a hell of a drug

the fact that I am among the top posters in this thread means that I have far from ignored it

the fact that you are ignoring my sublime truth does not translate into it being wrong

please do not post fits that only kill the interceptor inside of a very short, narrow range where the interceptor would not be in any even remotely plausible pvp scenario

basically only post RLML fits, and even then i hope you have 200km+ range

"look at the graph it has a point this is where I can guarantee a ship to be at all times"

no, the attacking interceptor gets to disengage within 2m of getting caught

for the basic math challenged, 2 minutes is a lot shorter time than 20-30 minutes

Idk what any alliance is planning, but the fact that their interceptors scarred you lot for life is hilarious.

the fact that you are resorting to such a restricted, unrealistic vignette is betraying your desperation

You keep throwing this 40 minute number around. How many systems do you really think are going to have industry 5? Do you think this is enough motivation to get people out and mine the ludicrous amount that's required to reach and maintain industry 5?

there's no desperation in pointing out that interceptors are unbalanced in fozziesov

it's a little thing i like to call "objective fact"

there's no desperation in pointing out that interceptors are unbalanced in fozziesov

it's a little thing i like to call "objective fact"

nah

i'll reiterate it since you are slow

interceptor warp speed > maulus warp speed

disengage and move to next cap point

feel free to stop any time, I need to free up my clipboard for other things if you would be so kind

some people need to have things repeated to them in order to understand them

some more than others i guess

The only real disadvantage is being inflicted on sov holders with more systems than they can cover... everybody else is just fine., thanks.

Yes!!! and guess what.... we already have the whole cloaky alt thing in place !!!! :)

no, the attacking interceptor gets to disengage within 2m of getting caught

for the basic math challenged, 2 minutes is a lot shorter time than 20-30 minutes

You get a notice if your sov's being attacked. The whole point of this is to live in the systems that you claim. Don't live there, don't claim it. If you do live there, you don't need to camp because of one cloaky neut. If the alarms go off, respond.

Lots of red-herrings flying around here, but, nobody wants to address the elephant in the room. It's renters, mostly. Renters whose "defense" is to safe up when neuts enter system. Not to mention, shall we say, "auto-renters" that are programmed to do so. Ever lead a roaming gang through the south only to encounter system after system with one nullified tengu that warps to a POS when you enter? Mr. Dave has. It's pretty sad.

Systems that are actually occupied and used by people who can fight will have no issue here. This PR blitz is, at least to a large degree, to try to protect absentee landlord income streams.

you can't say "that feedback isn't needed because they will adjust based on feedback and resolve that issue"

until they actually adjust then the feedback continues

please continue to harp on this point as if it was relevant

also extended ellipsis use is one of the key signs of desperation in a poster

please do not post fits that only kill the interceptor inside of a very short, narrow range where the interceptor would not be in any even remotely plausible pvp scenario

basically only post RLML fits, and even then i hope you have 200km+ range

"look at the graph it has a point this is where I can guarantee a ship to be at all times"

this just in signature radius and speed are not significant or advantages

i'm sure if you ask nicely the interceptor will sit inside this range for you while you wait for target lock to complete

Not really, since most of Eve isn't goonies. Do you wanna try to refute facts or just divert?



And wasted 10-35 minutes doing so compared to the defenders 2-4 minutes. That'll repeat in the "new" structure unless it's undefended......

what's tracking precious

This is the other side of the coin. In practice it means that we should discourage mechanics that lead to indefinite stalemates over a structure or command node. This is the reason for the "no remote reps" condition on active Links. This is also the goal that trollceptors would contradict if they were to become dominant.

We would like this thread to become a place of discussion around the Entosis Link mechanics, the ships that you expect to use them on, and the tactics you foresee becoming popular. What issues do you foresee popping up? How do you think these goals should be adjusted or refocused? Which of the many module balance dials do you think would be the most intuitive?

I think if one were to take only one thing out of the discussion, this would be it.

also fyi the timer can only be 40 minutes if the system has an industrial index of 5

there are no regions in the game with an average industrial index above one except providence

a ceptor is capable of denying you "effective military control of the grid" so where's the problem?

deklein is the most-used 0.0 region in the game

Trollvipuls don't insta-align and can't ignore bubbles. Therefore according to Gewns they're absolutely in no way shape or form imbalanced.

who claimed to be an alt of a sovereign null resident

how dare we counter attempts at taking our sov with pvp

lmbo at this guy who doesn't understand basic highsec mechanics

nope

unfortunately you can't collapse nullsec gates when things go south for you

i tend not to see unicorns yes

this doesn't make me blind, it makes you delusional

you're not stuck on grid, you go very fast which allows you to evade anyone attacking you, burn off grid, then disengage at will

also i am curious why you seem so miffed about the gatecamp GÇö-áif people want to put in some effort to keeping people out of their space, i feel like that is worthwhile

you can also break gatecamps with sufficient pvp force so again i have to wonder why you hold them in such contempt

combat probes appear on dscan

interceptor sees combat probes, then disengages

the only things faster than an interceptor rely on oversized prop mods that make your agility go to pot and require unbonused warp scramblers to turn off the interceptor's mwd

what part of "interceptors can disengage at will" being the fulcrum of my concern is hard for you to understand

So you are a low sec pilot talking about sov... The thing you keep forgeting is that we put assets on risk in our stations, in low sec you never have anything at risk expect the ship you are flying.

how

personal jf alts are like a basic requirement to actually be a person in this game

lookit this guy with orbit beacons for LP and FW missions trying to claim the carebear angle