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Fredou Gallente Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2006.10.14 16:35:00 - [1] how many billions are added in game from the insurance system each day? (insurance create isk, for an example a megathron create 74 millions) too much isk in game --- Don't forget to check my current Escrow!
Major Stormer Caldari Demon Womb Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.14 17:08:00 - [2] Um, insurance losses money, just not as much as a uninsured ship would. -------------------------- Above post is my opinion only and does not represent my corp/alliance.
Fredou Gallente Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2006.10.14 17:10:00 - [3] Originally by: Major Stormer Um, insurance losses money, just not as much as a uninsured ship would. pay 31m to nowhere grab 105m from nowhere 74m added in game from nowhere --- Don't forget to check my current Escrow!
zeKzn Empire of Destiny	Posted - 2006.10.14 17:11:00 - [4] Edited by: zeKzn on 14/10/2006 17:11:40 insurance is an injection into the game, yes, most likely evened out by other moneysinks. a lot of thought goes into this when you have a game based on a player economy. _______ zeKzn - Empire of Destiny mods go here :>
Fredou Gallente Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2006.10.14 17:14:00 - [5] Originally by: zeKzn Edited by: zeKzn on 14/10/2006 17:11:40 insurance is an injection into the game, yes, most likely evened out by other moneysinks. a lot of thought goes into this when you have a game based on a player economy. i don't think there is enough isk sink to get rid of the isk created from insurance --- Don't forget to check my current Escrow!
zeKzn Empire of Destiny	Posted - 2006.10.14 17:15:00 - [6] off the top of my head i cant think of any money sinks at all, aside from purchases from NPCs on the market, but if insurance was such a huge injection into the game then inflation would be way way way higher than it is now. _______ zeKzn - Empire of Destiny mods go here :>
Edgars Sults LFC	Posted - 2006.10.14 17:19:00 - [7] Insurance helps the market. Not all insured ships get destroyed. Isk sink. If your ship gets destroyed, you get more than your insurance cost, but you also lost the ship and have to buy a new one. And the cost of ships is usually around the same as the insurance payout. So you get some insurance money, but probably spend it right away on a new ship someone else has made. So the economy doesn't stop. So I don't see any problems with insurance. Hmm. What would happen if insurance was run by player corps instead of game mechanics?
zeKzn Empire of Destiny	Posted - 2006.10.14 17:23:00 - [8] Originally by: Edgars Sults Insurance helps the market. Not all insured ships get destroyed. Isk sink. This is correct, I doubt the majority of ships are destroyed before the cost of their insurance overruns the gain. Quote: If your ship gets destroyed, you get more than your insurance cost, but you also lost the ship and have to buy a new one. And the cost of ships is usually around the same as the insurance payout. Whilst correct, this isn't an isk sink. The money you lose doesn't disappear from the market, it goes to another player, the one who you bought the modules/new ship from. The money you get from insurances magically appears in the economy, created by the server, which effectively acts as the federal reserve. Without ISK sinks, this would result in massive inflation. There hasn't been massive inflation, at least not due to money supply issues, so clearly there are some ISK sinks that are rather effective. Quote: So you get some insurance money, but probably spend it right away on a new ship someone else has made. So the economy doesn't stop. So I don't see any problems with insurance. Economies, if anything, speed up when the money supply gets too large. The problem is hyperinflation occurs if you try to sustain it. Its effectively like printing money and trying to spend it - the value of an individual unit of currency will inevitably fall. The issue with insurance is that whilst you as an individual lose money overall, the economy as a whole gains money, money that appears from nowhere. Quote: Hmm. What would happen if insurance was run by player corps instead of game mechanics? It most likely wouldn't work, because in order to make money the PCs would have to charge obscene interest rates or have huge costs for the same level of coverage. Insurance works irl because so few people end up claiming it. _______ zeKzn - Empire of Destiny mods go here :>
Fredou Gallente Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2006.10.14 17:23:00 - [9] Originally by: Edgars Sults Insurance helps the market. Not all insured ships get destroyed. Isk sink. If your ship gets destroyed, you get more than your insurance cost, but you also lost the ship and have to buy a new one. And the cost of ships is usually around the same as the insurance payout. So you get some insurance money, but probably spend it right away on a new ship someone else has made. So the economy doesn't stop. So I don't see any problems with insurance. Hmm. What would happen if insurance was run by player corps instead of game mechanics? problem is the isk from insurance come from nowhere, isk is added in game if there is 1000 insured bs killed in game each day... that would be around 74b added in game each day, tell me a isk sink for that? yes the player lost isk, the game gained isk --- Don't forget to check my current Escrow!
Fredou Gallente Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2006.10.14 17:27:00 - [10] zeKzn: there is inflation, huge one, don't look at T1/named T1 stuff --- Don't forget to check my current Escrow!
zeKzn Empire of Destiny	Posted - 2006.10.14 17:30:00 - [11] Originally by: Fredou zeKzn: there is inflation, huge one, don't look at T1/named T1 stuff if you mean t2, since I'm not sure I understand just what you told me to do, the inflation on t2 items is more due to the inherent oligopolistic market structure than due to money supply issues. _______ zeKzn - Empire of Destiny mods go here :>
Lucian Corvinus Gallente Expert Systems	Posted - 2006.10.14 17:34:00 - [12] Now look at the T2 ships, 450 mil payed for a HULK, you get about 30 mil from insurance.. 420 mil into the drain, same goes for every other T2 ship.. now that's a money sink. And what about the amount of money brought into the game from mining? that should be alot worse..
zeKzn Empire of Destiny	Posted - 2006.10.14 17:37:00 - [13] Originally by: Lucian Corvinus 450 mil payed for a HULK, you get about 30 mil from insurance.. 420 mil into the drain, same goes for every other T2 ship.. now that's a money sink. As I explained before, thats not an ISK sink in an economic sense. You lose ISK, but the game as a whole gains 30mil. resident economics expert
Fredou Gallente Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2006.10.14 17:42:00 - [14] Originally by: zeKzn Originally by: Fredou zeKzn: there is inflation, huge one, don't look at T1/named T1 stuff if you mean t2, since I'm not sure I understand just what you told me to do, the inflation on t2 items is more due to the inherent oligopolistic market structure than due to money supply issues. T2 is one of them, rare items are another one, faction/officer stuff some items gained more than 200% in price since last year --- Don't forget to check my current Escrow!
zeKzn Empire of Destiny	Posted - 2006.10.14 17:43:00 - [15] Originally by: Fredou T2 is one of them, rare items are another one, faction/officer stuff some items gained more than 200% in price since last year The problem is its hard to be sure if that wasn't due to slight changes in rarity and so forth brought on by patches or if its due to actual inflation. its misleading to judge inflation based on one or two products in a specific sector of the market, you have to take a weighted index of items from all over the place. resident economics expert
Fredou Gallente Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2006.10.14 17:44:00 - [16] Originally by: Lucian Corvinus Now look at the T2 ships, 450 mil payed for a HULK, you get about 30 mil from insurance.. 420 mil into the drain, same goes for every other T2 ship.. now that's a money sink. And what about the amount of money brought into the game from mining? that should be alot worse.. you know 450m is like 10x the production cost, maybe more? I call that HUGE inflation, don't forget... there is 20 bpo in game --- Don't forget to check my current Escrow!
Fredou Gallente Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2006.10.14 17:48:00 - [17] Originally by: zeKzn Originally by: Fredou T2 is one of them, rare items are another one, faction/officer stuff some items gained more than 200% in price since last year The problem is its hard to be sure if that wasn't due to slight changes in rarity and so forth brought on by patches or if its due to actual inflation. its misleading to judge inflation based on one or two products in a specific sector of the market, you have to take a weighted index of items from all over the place. until someone prove me that i'm wrong i will say: there is enough drop, farmer(players) just keep the items in stock to raise price, same with some T2 builder --- Don't forget to check my current Escrow!
Daktor The Galactic Trade Federation	Posted - 2006.10.14 17:48:00 - [18] Originally by: zeKzn As I explained before, thats not an ISK sink in an economic sense. You lose ISK, but the game as a whole gains 30mil. And the game loses all the minerals used to make the ship, and the modules on the ship (which are made by players, using minerals, and isk costs in factories). You can't just take insurance out of the whole economic issue by itself, you need to look at the entire picture of isk gain and loss.
Fredou Gallente Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2006.10.14 17:49:00 - [19] Originally by: Daktor Originally by: zeKzn As I explained before, thats not an ISK sink in an economic sense. You lose ISK, but the game as a whole gains 30mil. And the game loses all the minerals used to make the ship, and the modules on the ship (which are made by players, using minerals, and isk costs in factories). You can't just take insurance out of the whole economic issue by itself, you need to look at the entire picture of isk gain and loss. mineral = time hole from miner, not isk while you mine, do you give isk to nowhere? --- Don't forget to check my current Escrow!
zeKzn Empire of Destiny	Posted - 2006.10.14 17:50:00 - [20] yes, I'm certain there is inflation in the sense that prices are far higher than they used to be. But unless that is the case over a wide range of products in the economy, meaning t2, officer/faction, t1, resources, and so forth, the inflation cannot have been caused by money supply growth. resident economics expert
zeKzn Empire of Destiny	Posted - 2006.10.14 17:52:00 - [21] Originally by: Daktor And the game loses all the minerals used to make the ship, and the modules on the ship (which are made by players, using minerals, and isk costs in factories). You can't just take insurance out of the whole economic issue by itself, you need to look at the entire picture of isk gain and loss. This is true, to an extent, but the minerals were created out of, effectively, nothing, by the game. The loss only balances out the gain brought in by the mining of the minerals. resident economics expert
Leianna Entropy Tech.	Posted - 2006.10.14 17:54:00 - [22] One of the biggest ISK sinks in game: POS fuel iirc, POS fuel removes "billions"? daily. It's in a dev blog somewhere. ======================== Entropy Tech. Oipo II - Moon 19 Ishukone Watch Logistics
zeKzn Empire of Destiny	Posted - 2006.10.14 17:58:00 - [23] Originally by: Leianna One of the biggest ISK sinks in game: POS fuel iirc, POS fuel removes "billions"? daily. It's in a dev blog somewhere. another very good point. I dont think the amount brought into the game by insurance alone is enough to come anywhere close to unbalancing the money supply. the figures themselves would still be interesting to see. hintdevshint resident economics expert
zeKzn Empire of Destiny	Posted - 2006.10.14 18:01:00 - [24] Originally by: Fredou i just used insurance for example... add bounty on rat? add where the npc station buy stuff? (trade stuff, tag, overseer, etc) maybe there is many other way to create isk... I'm quite certain they are very closely monitored and balanced. resident economics expert
Fredou Gallente Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2006.10.14 18:01:00 - [25] Originally by: Leianna One of the biggest ISK sinks in game: POS fuel iirc, POS fuel removes "billions"? daily. It's in a dev blog somewhere. i just used insurance for example... add bounty on rat? add where the npc station buy stuff? (trade stuff, tag, overseer, etc) maybe there is many other way to create isk... --- Don't forget to check my current Escrow!
Fredou Gallente Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2006.10.14 18:07:00 - [26] Originally by: zeKzn I'm quite certain they are very closely monitored and balanced. i hope too i hope too for a dev response --- Don't forget to check my current Escrow!
Na'Thuul Caldari Blood Inquisition Sani Khal'Vecna	Posted - 2006.10.14 18:09:00 - [27] Skillbooks --- [08:41:12] Nebulai > unless your offering me cheap pills, I don't see it
corroded	Posted - 2006.10.14 18:26:00 - [28] this thread makes baby jesus cry the only sources isk comes from are: NPC buy orders Bounties for killing NPC's Mission rewards . lets take your insurance for example: Buy megathron: -100 mill Insure megathron: -30 mill Blow up megathron : + 100 mill = -30 mill (just example numbers) so just how is isk being created out of nowhere? Every single isk you have in your wallet has come from an npc in some form. when you sell a mod to someone isk isnt being created, just redistributed between players. better? t2 market is inflated as a result of different factors, i.e t2 lottery + greed..
Fredou Gallente Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2006.10.14 18:32:00 - [29] Originally by: corroded this thread makes baby jesus cry the only sources isk comes from are: NPC buy orders Bounties for killing NPC's Mission rewards . lets take your insurance for example: Buy megathron: -100 mill Insure megathron: -30 mill Blow up megathron : + 100 mill = -30 mill (just example numbers) so just how is isk being created out of nowhere? Every single isk you have in your wallet has come from an npc in some form. when you sell a mod to someone isk isnt being created, just redistributed between players. better? t2 market is inflated as a result of different factors, i.e t2 lottery + greed.. again.. Buy megathron: -100 mill to a player Insure megathron: -31 mill to nowhere Blow up megathron : + 105 mill from nowhere = -30 mill to player wallet = +74m to game --- Don't forget to check my current Escrow!
Quin Tal Fort Knox Inc Expeto Libertas Foedus	Posted - 2006.10.14 19:49:00 - [30] How many billions... or perhaps.. millions!? muahahaha.

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