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Balancing Amarr BS/large lasers

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Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2332	Posted - 2015.03.16 15:51:12 - [31] - Quote Lienzo wrote: It would be reasonable to say that Neutrons are a bit light in terms of fitting requirements. You rarely see anyone compensating with ions. It may appear this way because the vast majority of people are willing to sacrifice tank to get neutrons. the exception being battleships, at which point 800mm autos and mega pulses also dont come at a compromise. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 592	Posted - 2015.03.16 16:57:17 - [32] - Quote Leyete Wulf wrote: All I can say about this is comparing tachyons to 1400s would be fine if 1400s weren't capless. I always feel a little dissapointed when I see the cap use reduction bonus on a laser boat. Cruiser A gets tracking damage and tank bonuses, Cruiser B gets damage cap use and tank. Why do I have to have a ship bonus just to be able to fire my guns for more than a minute at a time? The Abaddon should be the Amarr answer to the Rokh but even at full skills the Abaddon is going to cap itself out pretty much regardless of which BS guns it fits and passive tanked. Whereas the rokh, the mael, and the mega don't become cap sensitive until they start running reps or MWDing all over creation. Balance means having meaningful choices. Not being stuck with something inferior just because that's the racial skill you have trained. (cough Revelation cough) That is not entirely true. Please fit a Rokh with a full rack of 425mm rails, omni-active tank and mjd or mwd and do the 'Dread Pirate Scarlet' mission with this Rokh. Since you get a range bonus to hybrid turrets, you will have enough range to always shoot antimatter up until 96km. Please do so for a while and tell me again that the Rokh doesn't have problems. signature
Celthric Kanerian Ascendance Of New Eden Workers Trade Federation 247	Posted - 2015.03.16 20:27:45 - [33] - Quote I've flown an Apocalypse, a Apoc navy issue and now a Paladin... I haven't run into any problems fitting any of them ever.
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2333	Posted - 2015.03.16 20:51:24 - [34] - Quote Celthric Kanerian wrote: I've flown an Apocalypse, a Apoc navy issue and now a Paladin... I haven't run into any problems fitting any of them ever. Because you never tried to fit tachyons onto the apocs. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Xequecal GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 275	Posted - 2015.03.16 21:25:20 - [35] - Quote You can't even fit Megabeams to an Apoc without running out of CPU.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 934	Posted - 2015.03.16 21:44:24 - [36] - Quote Daichi Yamato wrote: Celthric Kanerian wrote: I've flown an Apocalypse, a Apoc navy issue and now a Paladin... I haven't run into any problems fitting any of them ever. Because you never tried to fit tachyons onto the apocs. It's not that bad.... If you accept the usual sniper fail fit compromises. [Apocalypse copy, Apocalypse] 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II Energized Armor Layering Membrane II Internal Force Field Array I Heat Sink II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Reactor Control Unit II Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script F-90 Positional Sensor Subroutines, Targeting Range Script F-90 Positional Sensor Subroutines, Targeting Range Script Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I <<<>>> OR MJD Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Large Anti-Explosive Pump I Large Anti-Explosive Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Warrior II x5
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2333	Posted - 2015.03.16 22:32:25 - [37] - Quote yup, no active tank. Where as an equivalent mega/hyp can fit 425's, an active tank, a hybrid rig and an MJD with no fitting mods. None. Fluffers says the mega has CPU issues, but the only issue ive ever had is being a smidge over CPU that was solved by fitting a meta TC, the effect of which was negligible. And an equivalent mael/rokh can fit 1400's/425's with an active tank and an MJD with one power dag (not even a reactor control). But they have the lows to spare and, as mentioned, the Rokh has awful cap. An apoc cannot even fit mega beams and an active tank. Let alone tachyons an MJD or weapon rig. and it suffers much more by using low slots for fitting mods than a rokh or mael. so... The Tempest could use some grid love (and other love) to fit arties, and the grid requirements of large beams could be brought back so that an Apoc can make a competitive mega beam fit and a baddon can make a competitive tachyon fit. This way large beams will hopefully be fit on more than just ABC's and battleships with only 4 guns. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Xequecal GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 275	Posted - 2015.03.16 22:37:07 - [38] - Quote afkalt wrote: Daichi Yamato wrote: Celthric Kanerian wrote: I've flown an Apocalypse, a Apoc navy issue and now a Paladin... I haven't run into any problems fitting any of them ever. Because you never tried to fit tachyons onto the apocs. It's not that bad.... If you accept the usual sniper fail fit compromises. Plate can be meta'd to trade a TE for a HS. [Apocalypse copy, Apocalypse] 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II Energized Armor Layering Membrane II Internal Force Field Array I Heat Sink II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Reactor Control Unit II Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script F-90 Positional Sensor Subroutines, Targeting Range Script F-90 Positional Sensor Subroutines, Targeting Range Script Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I <<<>>> OR MJD Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Large Anti-Explosive Pump I Large Anti-Explosive Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Warrior II x5 But really this is just 'sniper options are terrible, more at 11....' A Megathron has over double the EHP of this, and does more DPS at all ranges up to 150km with better tracking. You have no injector and thus have less than three minutes of cap for your guns even if you don't use the MWD at all. The only remotely viable Apoc fits use meta 4 guns, it just doesn't have the fitting for T2.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 934	Posted - 2015.03.16 22:40:58 - [39] - Quote These are the things you trade when you start hitting out to these, 200+ ranges. I never said it was smart.
Xequecal GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 275	Posted - 2015.03.16 22:42:58 - [40] - Quote afkalt wrote: These are the things you trade when you start hitting out to these, 200+ ranges. I never said it was smart. Sniping past 150km is worthless as you can be probed down and warped to.
Whittorical Quandary The Asteroid is Depleted 23	Posted - 2015.03.16 23:25:36 - [41] - Quote ShahFluffers wrote: Interesting bit of information: not all battleships (from other races) can equip their largest long-range weapons with a stiff tank AND utility... not without using some fitting mods and/or downgrading other systems. Some examples: - the Maelstorm fitting a full rack of 1400mm artys leave no extra PG for any other mod. - the Megathron has some CPU issues when you try to fit it with 425mm rails with tank and utility. - the Dominix does not have the CPU or PG to fit full rack of 425mm railguns with a tank and utility. Another bit of information: with long range weapons you generally have to make TRADEOFFS in other aspects to make them work properly. This is intentional. Because range is a huge advantage. However, can't the T1 Raven fit everything? A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. -Douglas Adams
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 594	Posted - 2015.03.17 01:00:28 - [42] - Quote Xequecal wrote: afkalt wrote: These are the things you trade when you start hitting out to these, 200+ ranges. I never said it was smart. Sniping past 150km is worthless as you can be probed down and warped to. Xequecal dear, don't you miss the old days when sniping to 200km was a thing? There is a old video from that time on youtube where a 'large fleet' was fighting each other from across the grid - 100 rail-Megas on one side and beam 100 Apocs on the other. And for everyone who doesn't know, that was a really big thing back in 2005/6. signature
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 594	Posted - 2015.03.17 01:01:25 - [43] - Quote Whittorical Quandary wrote: ShahFluffers wrote: Interesting bit of information: not all battleships (from other races) can equip their largest long-range weapons with a stiff tank AND utility... not without using some fitting mods and/or downgrading other systems. Some examples: - the Maelstorm fitting a full rack of 1400mm artys leave no extra PG for any other mod. - the Megathron has some CPU issues when you try to fit it with 425mm rails with tank and utility. - the Dominix does not have the CPU or PG to fit full rack of 425mm railguns with a tank and utility. Another bit of information: with long range weapons you generally have to make TRADEOFFS in other aspects to make them work properly. This is intentional. Because range is a huge advantage. However, can't the T1 Raven fit everything? Missiles are not guns. Yet when you fit torpedo launchers you have to do the very same tradeoffs. signature
Tusker Crazinski Delta vane Corp. Mordus Angels 44	Posted - 2015.03.17 02:32:03 - [44] - Quote elitatwo wrote: Xequecal wrote: afkalt wrote: These are the things you trade when you start hitting out to these, 200+ ranges. I never said it was smart. Sniping past 150km is worthless as you can be probed down and warped to. Xequecal dear, don't you miss the old days when sniping to 200km was a thing? yes as matter in fact
Lienzo Amanuensis 51	Posted - 2015.03.17 03:48:00 - [45] - Quote I honestly don't remember if Tachs ever got their fitting requirements tweaked at any point, but I do remember that in ye olden days, lasers had naturally higher damage than other weapon systems. This was the reason why Amarr ships all had laser cap use reduction bonuses instead of damage bonuses. Traditionally, of all the damage mods, lasers users got the most stick based on the increased RoF penalty. It could all just be a forgotten balance holdover.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 934	Posted - 2015.03.17 09:26:26 - [46] - Quote Xequecal wrote: afkalt wrote: These are the things you trade when you start hitting out to these, 200+ ranges. I never said it was smart. Sniping past 150km is worthless as you can be probed down and warped to. I know - point is the problem with Tachs ain't the fitting. You can make an acceptable sniper for with it, it's just that such a meta is worthless. If it wasn't, the tank compromises are fine, because range tank.
Tusker Crazinski Delta vane Corp. Mordus Angels 45	Posted - 2015.03.17 11:49:08 - [47] - Quote Lienzo wrote: I honestly don't remember if Tachs ever got their fitting requirements tweaked at any point, but I do remember that in ye olden days, lasers had naturally higher damage than other weapon systems. This was the reason why Amarr ships all had laser cap use reduction bonuses instead of damage bonuses. Traditionally, of all the damage mods, lasers users got the most stick based on the increased RoF penalty. It could all just be a forgotten balance holdover. back then sniper battleships actually had little to no tank, maybe some resist mods to make reps stick better, but other than that it was all Stabs, Sinks, TEs, TCs and Sebos, oh my.... and before my time in the game there were no stacking penalties.......you could fit as much heat sinks or gyro stabs as your CPU would allow.
Uriam Khanid New Machinarium Corporation 2	Posted - 2015.03.20 01:13:05 - [48] - Quote guys, tachyons is not a problem. The line of ship is MAIN problem. Try to fit Abaddon and Apoc's with hybrids and projectives. You will get excelent platforms, for Abaddon you even get a huge tank. Now, how many from you use Armageddon Navy Issue? How many will try to use him again?
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2351	Posted - 2015.03.20 03:04:09 - [49] - Quote Uriam Khanid wrote: guys, tachyons is not a problem. The line of ship is MAIN problem. Try to fit Abaddon and Apoc's with hybrids and projectives. You will get excelent platforms, for Abaddon you even get a huge tank. Now, how many from you use Armageddon Navy Issue? How many will try to use him again? Pretty sure this means it is in fact the guns that are the problem, not the ships. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"

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