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Appeal for a TRUE Minmitar fleet Maelstrom

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Octavio Santillian Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.10.17 09:00:00 - [1] Though I am not convinced that the Minmitar would be best served by another fleet oriented BS, such a ship will be more palatable if it is an artillery platform in the tradition Matari mold; i.e. it should be the final word in Alpha Strike. The difficulty is designing a ship that will not simply be an upgraded Tempest. Though one obvious option would be to alter the Tempest to be more AC oriented, this post will not entertain that option. Giving the Matari a æfleetÆ platform that delivers an essentially identical Alpha Strike capability to the Tempest dose not augment the Matari fleet. People do not fly Matari battleships for superior range, superior DPS, or a superior tank. The other races will all offer battleships that out pace Matari offering in these departments. As such, I feel I will continue using a Tempest, which can deliver essentially identical sniping capabilities as the proposed Maelstrom, and retain two hi slots for any number of useful modules (e.g. a cloak, a remote armor rep, various missile launchers, drone augmentation links, med NOS, etc). If I want a ship with a higher DPS, there will be better options than the Maelstrom. (Notice how I am not mentioning that I think offering the Maelstrom as an answer to the pitiful DPS of projectiles and especially artillery is a very poor fixàoh wait, ahh, well I already said it). As such I would like to see the ROF bonus changed to a straight damage bonus and thus giving the Maelstrom a significant Alpha Strike advantage that warrants the loss of two very useful hi slots. IÆm not going to suggest a second bonus, as I want this post to stay focused one point: if the Maelstrom is to be a Matari artillery platform, it should be the final and undisputed word in Alpha Strike capabilities. ôWeÆre not doing for ISK...........WeÆre doing it for a ****load of ISK!ö
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.17 09:05:00 - [2] There have been many posts about this, and it would be nice if Tuxford for once could say what he thinks about this, even if it indeed is a minmatar thread and not a gallente one. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Sweet Poetry	Posted - 2006.10.17 09:46:00 - [3] I think the problem with your suggestion is that although it's true a sniper tempest does poor DoT it's alpha strike ability is very strong and a great tactical asset. So strong that increasing the alpha string by 8/6 = +33% would be insta-popping a whole new range of ships. (they are already one shotting cruisers, they would be taking out t2 cruisers / blockade runners in one shot. Can you imagine the heart ache? I don't like everyone's ship being the same either, as one poster put it, it's a very lazy way to keep things balanced. I think it would be cool if they made a ship with 8 missile turrets though, so minmatar has one that's guns mostly(tempest), mixed(typhoon) and missiles. Kinda neat. I also think the gallente ship should be a scorp style ship that uses damps and can use them from far enough out to work in fleets. We already have a blasterthron, who wants 2 of em? Although a lot of minnie's are mad about their low dps, I have considered training minmatar even though I can already snipe in both a mega and an apoc/geddon. The reason is, I want the alpha strikes. I've even thought about putting 1400's on my Apoc so I could get the alpha strike that the meastrom is going to get. But if I did this, it would out alpha a tempest (barely) but the dps would be even worse (no rate of fire bonus) and tachyon's are actually pretty decent anyways for alpha, it's megathron's that really suck at this. Every sniper can one shot a inty but a megathron (well I can do it but I need implants or else I leave them with 1/3 struct most times). IMO, alpha strike gets you more kills than DoT. -Sir Bart
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.17 10:34:00 - [4] Originally by: Sweet Poetry I think the problem with your suggestion is that although it's true a sniper tempest does poor DoT it's alpha strike ability is very strong and a great tactical asset. So strong that increasing the alpha string by 8/6 = +33% would be insta-popping a whole new range of ships. (they are already one shotting cruisers, they would be taking out t2 cruisers / blockade runners in one shot. Can you imagine the heart ache? Tuxford should have given the Hyperion to the minmatar and we wouldnt have this problem. Speed and agility is the trademark of minmatar and not gallente. Being slow is supposed to be the drawback of wtfpwnage dps. Well, at least someone made him change the mass reduction bonus on the Hyperion... thats at least something. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Rin Eyre	Posted - 2006.10.17 10:55:00 - [5] It's already "feature frozen". Pray to god (or who you hope) that it's frozen in beauty, not dinosaur anachronism. Because we will have it unchangable for next year, no less.
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.17 10:59:00 - [6] Just a random thought: Tuxford may be head of the developer team, but he's not the only one with opinions. It might just be that some of the ****ups aren't his doing ;) - What am I listening to?
JustBlaze	Posted - 2006.10.17 11:35:00 - [7] minmitar needs speed to run away gallente needs speed to run after you.
Trefnis Solidline Enterprise Kith of Venal	Posted - 2006.10.17 11:36:00 - [8] Im all out for alpha aswell, as getting 0.5 gun better alpha than pest for 24mil in guns and loss of 2 hislots.. no bother
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.17 11:38:00 - [9] Originally by: Ithildin Just a random thought: Tuxford may be head of the developer team, but he's not the only one with opinions. It might just be that some of the ****ups aren't his doing ;) No. Tuxford is Darth Vader. The rest listens to him. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.17 11:38:00 - [10] Originally by: Trefnis Im all out for alpha aswell, as getting 0.5 gun better alpha than pest for 24mil in guns and loss of 2 hislots.. no bother That's what everyone said Sig is not eve related Eve related? Copyright of ISD?
Max Teranous Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.17 11:51:00 - [11] One advantage of having a damage bonus rather than a RoF one - you can go make a coffee between volleys Max --------------------
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.17 11:54:00 - [12] Originally by: Octavio Santillian Original Post Admirable attempt, but all been done before, and we've gotten nowhere (as usual). We'll just have to wait and see what Kali brings. I'm not expecting to be happy. I'm expecting to be writing another post with lots of *******'s in. Scrapheap Challenge Forums irc.coldfront.net \| #scrapheap \| Come join us!
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.17 12:01:00 - [13] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 17/10/2006 12:03:01 Originally by: Max Teranous One advantage of having a damage bonus rather than a RoF one - you can go make a coffee between volleys I dont know why he didnt just put both rof/dmg on it, and made it 7 turrets. Its basically the same thing in terms of damage, except without the useless shield boosting bonus: 7 x 1,5 = 10,5 effective turrets with this change 8 x 1,25 = 10 effective turrets with only dmg bonus, but shield boost bonus. 6 x 1,5 = 9 effective turrets (this is Tempest, just for comparison) And then it would have one slot it can use for other things too. As a ship with both bonuses, it would also be better at a wider range of tasks, just like the Tempest. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.10.17 12:18:00 - [14] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 17/10/2006 12:17:03 Originally by: Testy Mctest Originally by: Octavio Santillian Original Post Admirable attempt, but all been done before, and we've gotten nowhere (as usual). We'll just have to wait and see what Kali brings. I'm not expecting to be happy. I'm expecting to be writing another post with lots of *******'s in. I really hate that they dont tell us until its too late. Jebus enough edits already. I did see the other post, and I was considering how to reply without being my normal offensive, derogatory self :P Scrapheap Challenge Forums irc.coldfront.net \| #scrapheap \| Come join us!
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.17 12:19:00 - [15] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 17/10/2006 12:21:08 Originally by: Testy Mctest Jebus enough edits already. Thats my callsign. I type something, then change it at least 3 times as I think about it. :) --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
MECTO	Posted - 2006.10.17 12:26:00 - [16] Originally by: Jim McGregor Well, at least someone made him change the mass reduction bonus on the Hyperion... thats at least something. why do ppl love to have "best" bs and "enemies" [gallente?] worst? i just don't get it.. i fly both minmatar and gallente and want 2 good new battleships, and caldari too! anyway hyperion is ruined by now with Rep bonus, cause it's pretty useless on armor tanked ships but it's better on shield tanking! but hm, isn't tux said that maelstorm will be sluggy and slow lol.. ruined? no ac platform then Originally by: Kusotarre I am awesome in fleets, everyone on teamspeak trembles in fear as my battlecry blasts through their headphones, heralding a new era of target-less randomosity.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.17 12:40:00 - [17] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 17/10/2006 12:40:46 Originally by: MECTO Originally by: Jim McGregor Well, at least someone made him change the mass reduction bonus on the Hyperion... thats at least something. why do ppl love to have "best" bs and "enemies" [gallente?] worst? i just don't get it.. i fly both minmatar and gallente and want 2 good new battleships, and caldari too! anyway hyperion is ruined by now with Rep bonus, cause it's pretty useless on armor tanked ships but it's better on shield tanking! but hm, isn't tux said that maelstorm will be sluggy and slow lol.. ruined? no ac platform then I just meant that blasterboats have to keep their only disadvantage - being slow - since they have such superior damage output. When a blasterthron lands next to you, you die. Thats basicly it. And they have to have difficulties getting in range, otherwise they have no drawbacks. Cap use is countered by cap injectors. And yeah, they are designing the Maelstrom to suck with autocannons, which is why it better be really good as a artillery platform. Its now a specialist, and specialists are supposed to do their job well. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jet Collins Dynamic Endeavors	Posted - 2006.10.17 13:22:00 - [18] I do agree with the new BS being the ultimate apha stick ship since the minmatar race where one easily King of this but not so much any more. However at the same time if the new BS did become the ultimate apha ship i fear it would be abused by unworthy races flying the ship to gate camp. If the ship is to be an ultimate apha ship it should be respected and flow to show all the true pride and straight of the republic. Jet Collins Mr Metropolis 2005
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2006.10.17 13:56:00 - [19] The Maelstrom is obviously intended to be the new Minmatar mining BS (8 turrets), as well as a mission runner (good tank). It's too bad that minnies always seem to get a RoF bonus, even though ACs already use far too much cargo space for ammo.
Grimpak Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.17 14:03:00 - [20] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 17/10/2006 12:40:46 Originally by: MECTO Originally by: Jim McGregor Well, at least someone made him change the mass reduction bonus on the Hyperion... thats at least something. why do ppl love to have "best" bs and "enemies" [gallente?] worst? i just don't get it.. i fly both minmatar and gallente and want 2 good new battleships, and caldari too! anyway hyperion is ruined by now with Rep bonus, cause it's pretty useless on armor tanked ships but it's better on shield tanking! but hm, isn't tux said that maelstorm will be sluggy and slow lol.. ruined? no ac platform then I just meant that blasterboats have to keep their only disadvantage - being slow - since they have such superior damage output. When a blasterthron lands next to you, you die. Thats basicly it. And they have to have difficulties getting in range, otherwise they have no drawbacks. Cap use is countered by cap injectors. And yeah, they are designing the Maelstrom to suck with autocannons, which is why it better be really good as a artillery platform. Its now a specialist, and specialists are supposed to do their job well. would a 5% dmg bonus + shield hp bonus do btw? A range bonus would be nothing but sweet, but I fear that such thing might make the ship unbalanced. ------- Originally by: Abdalion Originally by: Jebidus Skari What, in EVE, is a Tyrant? Me. Especially when it comes to troll threads.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.17 14:07:00 - [21] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 17/10/2006 14:13:49 Originally by: Grimpak would a 5% dmg bonus + shield hp bonus do btw? A range bonus would be nothing but sweet, but I fear that such thing might make the ship unbalanced. Its like with shield boosters vs shield extenders I think. If you can boost more hp than the shield extender during a fight, then its worth it. Otherwise not. For fleets, I think shield hp might be a good bonus, but for mission running, I think shield boosting is better, unless you can turn the ship into a mean passive tank... And if its a shield hp bonus, then it would have to be significant. If the ship has 4800 shield to start with, and then 25% from skills, thats 6000. Adding just 5% per level then it becomes 7500. Thats just 1500 extra shield, which isnt worth wasting a battleship bonus for. Its less than a large shield extender (adds 2100). So you would need maybe 10% per level to make the shield 9000, but even then I dont think its very impressive, and you only gain a little more than you would with a single slot shield extender... So overall, I dont know about shield hp bonus... --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Rehmes	Posted - 2006.10.17 15:08:00 - [22] I agree with the 5% dmg bonus, Alpha is matars sig and the RoF makes the ship useless. It makes no sense in having an art boat with an AC bonus. As for the second bonus i also think its useless. Shield boosting in a fleet is ridiculus imo. Fleet engagements require tracking comps/sensor boosters etc. All of those take up mids and making it a shield tanker renders that bonus useless since people will simply fill the mids w sniping mods. I think they should use any of these bonuses: To keep tankability- -5% shield hp per lv or -5% resistances per lv To truly make it a sniper- -7.5% tracking per lv or -10% optimal or falloff per lv I personnaly like tracking but there are mods for that.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.17 15:14:00 - [23] The thing is, while Tuxford says stuff like "shield boosting fleet ship", he means "mission runner". --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Rin Eyre	Posted - 2006.10.17 15:34:00 - [24] Originally by: Jim McGregor For fleets, I think shield hp might be a good bonus, but for mission running, I think shield boosting is better, unless you can turn the ship into a mean passive tank... Don't you think that passive tank is better when loaded up with Quake/Hail? The problem is "how good passive, how good tank"... it's tricky and "I don't belive it until I see it". P.S. But He didn't said it today either it seems .
Venkhar Krard	Posted - 2006.10.17 16:06:00 - [25] Tempest is the Minmatar fleet sniper. Make te Maelstrom a fast and agile AC platform. A slow Minmatar ship is just crapp..
MECTO	Posted - 2006.10.17 17:17:00 - [26] Originally by: Venkhar Krard A slow Minmatar ship is just crapp.. they'r just against minmatar philosophy. so true minmatards will not fly them Originally by: Kusotarre I am awesome in fleets, everyone on teamspeak trembles in fear as my battlecry blasts through their headphones, heralding a new era of target-less randomosity.
MECTO	Posted - 2006.10.17 17:21:00 - [27] anyway, im voting for falloff boni, but who cares Originally by: Kusotarre I am awesome in fleets, everyone on teamspeak trembles in fear as my battlecry blasts through their headphones, heralding a new era of target-less randomosity.
El Yatta Caldari Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2006.10.17 17:46:00 - [28] 5% damage 10% falloff is an option? With Tremor, sharpshooter 5 and 3x tracking enhancer IIs the optimal on a 1400 II reaches what, 180km? (Did that in my head without stacking penalty, so call it 165-170km, I'm not minmatar so cant check), with a 43km falloff. Add 50% falloff = 65km, and seeing as projectile users frequently engage in falloff it seems getting to 230/240km is pretty good. Furthermore, this gives you the option of using ACs in a small gang context - you're not fast, like (supposedly) an AC tempest, but with 10% falloff per level, barrage and max skills a d650 II has a 45km falloff - you could sit still and still hit 75% of the time at 20k, 50% of the tim at 45km, and simply project decent damage around in a gang. Effectively, you are acting like a raven, which cant move around much but can put short-range damage (torps) out to 50k. I suggest this because I'm not sure if a 10% optimal would be too good - 8x 1400 II with 25% better alpha, and able to hit as far as the rokh, will severely outclass it (with no option for the rokh to go further out cos of 249k targetting cap). However, this isnt me as a Caldari pilot with a stack of 425mm IIs wanting to make minmatar worse than us, its just me concerned that tempests are already a popular fleet boat, and not wanting to break fleets totally. ---\|\|---
Sir Bart	Posted - 2006.11.04 09:31:00 - [29] Originally by: El Yatta ... I suggest this because I'm not sure if a 10% optimal would be too good ... 10% optimal is much stronger than all other bonuses, next I'd say is rate of fire. Really the bonus to optimal should be reduced to 7.5% and it's still quite good. -Bart
Max Hardcase Art of War Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.04 11:04:00 - [30] Maelstrom : 5% damage bonus to Large projectile guns / lvl 10% bonus/lvl to large projectiles Falloff range.

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