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murder one
Gallente
CRICE Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.10.20 22:54:00 -
[1]
To get started:
Artillery Alpha is marginalized.
Blaster/Laser ships severely gimped due to cap issues.
Cargo capacity problems with cap charges for injectors ruin sustainability for ships that use/need them.
Amarr get a huge effective increase in effective HP due to resist bonuses vs. Gallente for example with it's repair bonus (Proph vs. Brutix for example. Rokh w/ shield resist bonus also is an example).
Typhoon will get less of an effective increase for it's tank due to lower armor than shield HP, and it's 90% used as an armor tanked ship.
Nos will become even more important as it completely bypasses the enemy tank to cripple cap directly.
Passive tanks/weapons will be superior in all cases to cap dependant designs due to fights being determined who can outlast the other making them endurance fights, rather than decisive clear cut fights based on damage output and tactics.
*Any* gank oriented ship will be severely handicapped, thereby limiting setup creativity, and narrowing setup options to defensively biased designs.
Huge inherent nerf to pirates and solo players who depend on fast kills to stay alive, in all respects. Longer fights means more exposure while you're fighting. Gate guns, sniping, belt attacks. Pirates need to be able to get in and out quickly. Especially solo pilots. This will severely reduce the amount of solo piracy and solo play in general in the game PVP wise.
Let's keep this going and see what else we can add to the list so that we can solve the issues before they are introduced into the game and we're stuck with them for 6 months or more.
Because I said so...
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2006.10.20 23:24:00 -
[2]
Arty alpha strikes importance minimised, that could be a minor problem.
Boosting artillery damage (and hence both DPS and alpha) to get it "more in line" with the other weapon systems might be advisable anyway, and probably sufficient.
Anyway, it's a small price to pay for the same complete weapon cap independence as missiles have, but with none of the missile drawbacks... all in all, this aspect is way overrated.
Boosting HPs by 50% (or 25% for T2 ships) and hence a small advantage for "resists" ships, but not boosting repair system amounts would be a pretty bad choice. Why "small advantage" ? Just think. It's the same 50% increase afterall, even if it means more "absolute" DPS absorbed.
BUT... boosting repair amounts by more than 25% would also be a bad thing. Not boosting at all would again be a bad thing.
So, let's say you boost repair amounts by +10% and decrease cap usage -10% on ALL repair systems, that should mitigate this issue somewhat.
Or, alternatively (or also), you could just boost max cap by say +20% on ALL ships across the board AND decrease cap recharge times -10%. That's a +33% effective cap recharge rate.
That should also solve a lot of blaster/laser capacitor issues.
The more I think of it, the better it sounds. Especially "anti-NOS" too.
Oh, and while you're at it... you could just flat increase the boost amounts on all cap charges while leaving size the same.
So say good bye to "Cap Booster 800", say hello to "Cap Booster 1200".
THAT one should also work in favor of "gank" ships (a lot, actually) and "encourage creative setups".
All in all, dual-repair setups will become a lot more common, and we might even see "three-repairer plus injectors" setups creeping up. You might finally have a decent trade-off between total HP and regen/second for active repair systems, and as for the passive shield, well, reducing the planned +50% recharge time to +30% or even +25% recharge time might do the trick, and bring'em all in line somewhat.
Heck, you might start to see more shieldtanks in PvP this way, and I guess the Amarr would just LOVE it.
__
Always question everything. Including yourself. |
Tasty Burger
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Posted - 2006.10.20 23:39:00 -
[3]
The HP bonus doesnt even solve the "problem", it makes it worse because more ganks will happen.
Not that there was a real problem to begin with.
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murder one
Gallente
CRICE Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.10.20 23:45:00 -
[4]
Giving a bonus to all armor repair systems won't offset the advantage that the amarr get with their resist bonuses. Gallente will specifically have to have their repair bonuses improved to remain competitive.
And I agree that there's going to be even less solo combat, as the only way to overwhelm a target effectively is to come in with half a dozen ships.
Because I said so...
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xenodia
Gallente
RONA Corporation
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Posted - 2006.10.20 23:47:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: murder one
Artillery Alpha is marginalized.
Ok, but a ship fitting artillery is also immune to your 2nd perceived problem. Artillery tempest might not one shot pop things anymore, but it will still be firing long after apoc or megathron are out of cap. So whats the problem, unless youre a low sec gate sniper wanting to one shot cruisers ?
Originally by: murder one
Blaster/Laser ships severely gimped due to cap issues.
Speaking as a gallente pilot, im actually glad for this, as it will reduce the number of outright gank setups out there. People wont be so quick to disregard all thoughts of tanking and/or cap longevity to get max damage if they are afraid they will "blow their wad" too soon and end up suffering performance issues at the end of the fight.
Originally by: murder one
Cargo capacity problems with cap charges for injectors ruin sustainability for ships that use/need them.
I agree this will be an issue, but im not convinced its actually a bad thing. Again, people have become too dependent on them, to the point where its rare to see a pvp setup without one. The only real way this is an issue is that it makes NOS that much more effective.
Originally by: murder one
Amarr get a huge effective increase in effective HP due to resist bonuses vs. Gallente for example with it's repair bonus (Proph vs. Brutix for example. Rokh w/ shield resist bonus also is an example).
I can live with it. Again, just forces people to be more creative with their setups, and hey it might just blunt some of the "omg gallente are overpowered" whines.
Originally by: murder one
Typhoon will get less of an effective increase for it's tank due to lower armor than shield HP, and it's 90% used as an armor tanked ship.
So shield tank it then if you think its that much better. Minmatar have the advantage in that their ships can usually shield or armor tank. Most other races can only do one or the other (with a few caldari/gallente exceptions).
Originally by: murder one
Nos will become even more important as it completely bypasses the enemy tank to cripple cap directly.
Of all your points, this is by far the most valid. I think that NOS will need a nerfing of some sort to go along with all the other changes to keep things in balance.
Originally by: murder one
Passive tanks/weapons will be superior in all cases to cap dependant designs due to fights being determined who can outlast the other making them endurance fights, rather than decisive clear cut fights based on damage output and tactics.
Not necessarily. Really what it means is that a person it used to take you 30 seconds to solo kill will now take 45. Thats about it. Granted, it means I may not be engaging any more snipeathrons solo in my arazu, but it was only in a very limited set of circumstances that that was feasible anyway.
Originally by: murder one
*Any* gank oriented ship will be severely handicapped, thereby limiting setup creativity, and narrowing setup options to defensively biased designs.
Since the vast majority of pvp setups now are gank designs anyway... nerfing gank setups might actually ENCOURAGE setup creativity. You might see a thorax fitted in something other than 1 of the 2 cookie cutter builds now.
Originally by: murder one
Huge inherent nerf to pirates and solo players who depend on fast kills to stay alive, in all respects. Longer fights means more exposure while you're fighting. Gate guns, sniping, belt attacks. Pirates need to be able to get in and out quickly. Especially solo pilots. This will severely reduce the amount of solo piracy and solo play in general in the game PVP wise.
Possibly a valid point. But as a mostly solo player myself, I dont think it will be too bad. Might force people to think a little harder about whether they want to engage or not, thats about it.
This signature space for rent |
Nebuli
Caldari
Art of War
Cult of War
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Posted - 2006.10.20 23:51:00 -
[6]
Didnt we hear all this when the HP was increased last time?
Did the sky fall? nope 
CEO - Art of War
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LaCoHa
Caldari Deep Space Navy
Caldari Deep Space Industral
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Posted - 2006.10.20 23:52:00 -
[7]
Originally by: murder one
Amarr get a huge effective increase in effective HP due to resist bonuses vs. Gallente for example with it's repair bonus (Proph vs. Brutix for example. Rokh w/ shield resist bonus also is an example)
Man. i did not even think about that - guess they need to give the armor resist bonus to gall instead of the rpr amount.
sheeesh.
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APEXrevived
Minmatar
Imperium Technologies
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.10.20 23:55:00 -
[8]
The 50% armor increase will nerf minmatar hard. It's a slap in the face for those who spent a crapload of time investing the skill points required to ONLY GET THE BEST ALPHA STRIKE. Our dps still blows, and i don't see them planning on beefing that up. i chose minmatar because i'm the minority. i was content with having the best alpha strike and not much else. i did not expect that they'd completely screw over my race and the 80% of my skill points that i've invested in race specific stuff. people say "then train another ship or weapon" but that isn't so simple. It'll require months and months of training that I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO DO JUST TO BECOME EFFECTIVE AGAIN. don't tell me that we are the pwn-all race. because we're not. so why are we getting hit the hardest? **insert the agnry obscenities here!!!!!!!!!!**
I thought since this game is called Eve that I'd play a female character. Is that a good enough excuse for a guy? |
starship enginer
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Posted - 2006.10.21 00:03:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Nebuli
Didnt we hear all this when the HP was increased last time?
Did the sky fall? nope
this is kinda different, just to give you an idea.
1600mm tungston plate = 6300 [after boost]
Medium T2 armor rep = 35.5555 rep per sec
time to rep one 1600mm plate = 177.18seconds!
thus if a fight lasts less than 177 seconds [just under 3mins, which is basicly 95% of fights] you are better off fitting a 1600mm plate than a medium t2 rep! [and that is not even looking at one using no cap and giving you a much higher burst dmg survival]
compaire to Large T2 rep! it requires 89 seconds to pay back, [again 80% of fights last less than this time]
that means that you have the option of fitting a large t2 rep or a 1600mm plate [which will give you 90seconds of large rep time thrown in!!!] for zero cap! and less fitting!
thus i can say for a fact my dual large t2 reps on my blasterthron will be changing to 1 medium rep and one tungston plate. and up the damage by fitting bigger guns
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starship enginer
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Posted - 2006.10.21 00:05:00 -
[10]
Edited by: starship enginer on 21/10/2006 00:06:05
Originally by: APEXrevived
The 50% armor increase will nerf minmatar hard. It's a slap in the face for those who spent a crapload of time investing the skill points required to ONLY GET THE BEST ALPHA STRIKE. Our dps still blows, and i don't see them planning on beefing that up. i chose minmatar because i'm the minority. i was content with having the best alpha strike and not much else. i did not expect that they'd completely screw over my race and the 80% of my skill points that i've invested in race specific stuff. people say "then train another ship or weapon" but that isn't so simple. It'll require months and months of training that I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO DO JUST TO BECOME EFFECTIVE AGAIN. don't tell me that we are the pwn-all race. because we're not. so why are we getting hit the hardest? **insert the agnry obscenities here!!!!!!!!!!**
simple fix, to shut the mini race up
HALF dmg mod, and reduce ROF by 55%. this will give you about 10% more DPS than you have now. about 10% less dps than galante and less tracking but for zero cap [and more dps at ranges, not inc broke t2 ammos]. imo fair! [also reduce ammo size by hald for this!]
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murder one
Gallente
CRICE Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.10.21 01:34:00 -
[11]
The HP increase is going to hit Blasterthrons hardest of all I think. Bthron pilots simply can't afford to fit plates due to the huge agility penalty. Plate Raxes will be interesting to see how they fair, and plated cruisers will become even more effective, as was demonstrated above.
Cap injectors are a requirement for Blasterthrons to compete with the other BS due to the HUGE cap requirements of blasters. Same with Amarr and lasers. It's not an option. It's mandatory. And if I'm going to be fitting Torp launchers and Nos on my Megathron, I might as well be flying a Raven shouldn't I?
With this change I see Autocannon/Arty and all missile/shield tanking setups remaining 100% competitive with respect to how good they are now. Same with nos/drone setups. What I don't see happening are the knife edge all or nothing blaster setups working, and I don't see a heavy tank blaster setup working either.
Blasters focus on the quick kill. You can't use a defensive endurance strategy with them or the whole reason for using it is lost. There is no point in simply wearing out a target and waiting for it to run out of cap charges. A 7 electron blaster setup on a Mega can't break most T2 tanks, so you're ending up waiting until your target runs out of cap to finish them off. And since you're going to be using cap at an even greater rate, it's a losing proposition for the blaster pilot.
As for shield tanking a Typhoon for example, for PVP shield tanking the Phoon is completely impractical given the requirements of an afterburner, scram and probably a web as well. That leaves room for a cap injector to run a shield booster and one extra mid to shield tank with. Doesn't look too promising.
I'm quite interested to see how the new Tier3 BS will play out given the new HP increases. The Abaddon starts looking like a killer.
Because I said so...
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Pestillence
Chav-Scum
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Posted - 2006.10.21 01:48:00 -
[12]
Dock and jump aggro timers.
Small gangs (i.e. anyone not in an alliance :P) may not be able to kill a person before he deaggro's and jumps or docks.
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Nir
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Posted - 2006.10.21 01:49:00 -
[13]
Nobody brought up Bombers yet, in any of the threads..
I guess that after this goes in Purifier will become the cheapest T2 ship in EVE. See, Amarr get a boost after all. 
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Jago X
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Posted - 2006.10.21 02:55:00 -
[14]
rigs, changes to T2 ammo, new ships, ECM/stab nerf <<- all things that will change the game in a significant way.
Soooo instead of thinking about how much the blasterthron is gettting nerfed you should be wandering what the hyperion is going to be like with three slots for rigs, T2 ammo changed and ECM in a different state than what its in atm.
My point is simply that no-one, apart from the devs whove been messing about with the new stuff allready, knows how this is going to pan out. You may be right that ships that have no cap-use for guns might be the next fotm or it could be that a passively shield tanked hype with 8 neutron blasters and three dmg mods is the next fotm. (stranger things have happened .. just look at the nanophoon)
Personally i think the devs have made all the right sounds so far about kali ... increased combat times is good, so is the stab/ecm nerf and pretty much everything else ive been reading.
Jago
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murder one
Gallente
CRICE Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.10.21 03:12:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Jago X
rigs, changes to T2 ammo, new ships, ECM/stab nerf <<- all things that will change the game in a significant way.
Soooo instead of thinking about how much the blasterthron is gettting nerfed you should be wandering what the hyperion is going to be like with three slots for rigs, T2 ammo changed and ECM in a different state than what its in atm.
My point is simply that no-one, apart from the devs whove been messing about with the new stuff allready, knows how this is going to pan out. You may be right that ships that have no cap-use for guns might be the next fotm or it could be that a passively shield tanked hype with 8 neutron blasters and three dmg mods is the next fotm. (stranger things have happened .. just look at the nanophoon)
Personally i think the devs have made all the right sounds so far about kali ... increased combat times is good, so is the stab/ecm nerf and pretty much everything else ive been reading.
Jago
I agree that it's hard to speculate without all the details, but experience has shown that if we wait until it's in the game, we're going to be stuck with it for half a year or more before it gets fixed. Extrapolating and theorizing now may save us some time and effort in the near future by bringing up the obvious issues so that we can get past that and address the more subtle design points.
As for Tier3 BS, if you expand on the existing mechanics and assume generally even designs across the board for the four new BS, the Rokh will be superior with respect to the current PVP constraints, and even more so given the new HP buffs. It favors ships with resistance bonuses and passive weapons systems. Just because we don't have the details doesn't mean we're operating in a vacuum.
Because I said so...
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Zeroskills
Bad Karma.
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Posted - 2006.10.21 03:36:00 -
[16]
I listed a dozen or so in my post in Tux's thread. Hesitant to repost the whole thing here. Here's the link:
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=413476&page=13#370
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murder one
Gallente
CRICE Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.10.21 04:07:00 -
[17]
ty for the link =]
Because I said so...
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Copine Callmeknau
The Splinter Syndicate
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.21 04:20:00 -
[18]
How about we make it a challenge.
Lets see if anyone can figure out any benefits this change will bring.
--
Originally by: RUNYOUFOOLS
wrong on so many levels you could only be more wrong if you where tuxford.
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murder one
Gallente
CRICE Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.10.21 05:25:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Copine Callmeknau
How about we make it a challenge.
Lets see if anyone can figure out any benefits this change will bring.
I think it's a conspiracy by the ISD to generate enough forum posts to validate their jobs ;)
Because I said so...
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Tasty Burger
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Posted - 2006.10.21 05:54:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Tasty Burger on 21/10/2006 05:53:59
Originally by: murder one
The HP increase is going to hit Blasterthrons hardest of all I think. Bthron pilots simply can't afford to fit plates due to the huge agility penalty. Plate Raxes will be interesting to see how they fair, and plated cruisers will become even more effective, as was demonstrated above.
Cap injectors are a requirement for Blasterthrons to compete with the other BS due to the HUGE cap requirements of blasters. Same with Amarr and lasers. It's not an option. It's mandatory. And if I'm going to be fitting Torp launchers and Nos on my Megathron, I might as well be flying a Raven shouldn't I?
With this change I see Autocannon/Arty and all missile/shield tanking setups remaining 100% competitive with respect to how good they are now. Same with nos/drone setups. What I don't see happening are the knife edge all or nothing blaster setups working, and I don't see a heavy tank blaster setup working either.
Blasters focus on the quick kill. You can't use a defensive endurance strategy with them or the whole reason for using it is lost. There is no point in simply wearing out a target and waiting for it to run out of cap charges. A 7 electron blaster setup on a Mega can't break most T2 tanks, so you're ending up waiting until your target runs out of cap to finish them off. And since you're going to be using cap at an even greater rate, it's a losing proposition for the blaster pilot.
As for shield tanking a Typhoon for example, for PVP shield tanking the Phoon is completely impractical given the requirements of an afterburner, scram and probably a web as well. That leaves room for a cap injector to run a shield booster and one extra mid to shield tank with. Doesn't look too promising.
I'm quite interested to see how the new Tier3 BS will play out given the new HP increases. The Abaddon starts looking like a killer.
I've agreed with most of what you say but the thing about the blasterthron is rubbish.
Neutron II + 2 1600 RT setups are already lethally effective and the armor boost will make them unbeatable.
Autocannon ships just dont deal the dps to compete.
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Polinus
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Posted - 2006.10.21 11:24:00 -
[21]
Minmatar won't have advantages due to non usage of capacitors. They will runout of ammo far earlier than that if using AC. Caldari on other hand will loose nothing, still don't use cap and missiles are very easy way to stock lots of damage potential in cargo bay.
Anyone trying to participate in small fleet of tatical combat (tatical means inteligent not dumb sit in front of other and wait to see who tanked better) will loose much of their competitiveness and fun. Bad for gameplay.
Gorup killing will only become more necessary so more proeminent, also increasing lag issues. That is very important, as someone living in south hemisphere I will not enter no where near a fight with more than a few dozen ships.
Overall this "balance" makes game worse for ammar and minmatar while making it better for caldari. Exactly what we least need now. or is nto obvious enough the proeminence of caldari population? They are not there simply because caldari is uber, but becuse its the non screwed race.
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