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Rinai Vero
Moira.
Villore Accords
530
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Posted - 2015.03.27 03:19:16 -
[91] - Quote
Look, we own the first bombardment of Caldari Prime as we must. Twice though? Heth set Caldari Prime aflame with his invasion. It wasn't just Gallente "occupiers" who died to sate his blood lust. How ironic to hear the Federation accused of being willing to "burn to a cinder" what they can't have, when Heth explicitly ordered Oblivion fired on Caldari Prime.
Responsibility for the outcome of Operation Highlander rests in the sole ownership of Caldari hubris. How many times did I plead on this very Summit for you people to negotiate the withdrawal of the Shiiguru before the worst could happen? Time and time again Caldari "Patriots" brazenly rejected any such settlement, and vowed terrible retribution against any Federal action. In your arrogance, you assured yourselves that your position was unassailable.
For that mistake, millions of civilians on both sides suffered. Admiral Yanala sacrificed her life to prevent even worse. One would think that Caldari capsuleers could at least sacrifice their pride. |
Rinai Vero
Moira.
Villore Accords
530
|
Posted - 2015.03.27 03:31:34 -
[92] - Quote
At any rate, it has become even more obvious that this topic was instigated solely to perpetuate conflict.
I've no doubt that the near future will hold both challenges and opportunities for the Intaki People. I feel that there is potential for different political and commercial actors to have a positive influence within the region, regardless of their Empire affiliation. That said, GMVA and other Gallente Militia forces will respond with force to any party who threatens the security of the Federation. |
Noden Vorpalstar
The Knights of Polaris
409
|
Posted - 2015.03.27 03:54:37 -
[93] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Rinai Vero wrote:Dailar Toralen wrote:Us not keeping the peace? Says the Villore Accord. Your people are the one's who burned our homeworld. And it is 'mine', and that of the whole Caldari State! Caldari Prime is our homeworld, and you burned it. How dare a member of the Villore Accord attempt to represent Caldari Prime! What the hell are you even talking about? GMVA's fleet wasn't even in the system when CONCORD shut down the gates on the day of the Battle of Caldari Prime. We stood down and watched the live feed like everyone else. It wasn't until hours later that anyone was even able to enter the system. That's when I flew an Iteron full of relief supplies into low orbit to be delivered by shuttle to the surface, right beside Caldari pilots still flagged from the battle. I was there. I didn't watch the live feed. I was one of the pilots you mention - running Gallente refugees to the wider system and Caldari refugees back to the State. But the man is right - the Federation burned our homeworld twice and settled occupiers on it. I really don't give a Damon about what they think are their rights - save where it is important for settling on a negotiated settlement.
In advance I want to thank both Pilots Tuulinen and Vero for their self-less actions in rendering aid to the people of Caldari Prime, during that dark day. Perhaps dispite the obvious racial differences one can conclude that humanitarianism and a deep seated will to do good to our fellow man is not lost upon those of us who have elected this immortal life as capsuleers.
With that said...
I think perhaps a history lesson is due to Pilots Toralen and Tuulinen. I will not cover the details which have been covered elsewhere. Here is an excellent place to start: The Battle of Caldari Prime.
You will learn that it was the Caldari State under the leadership of Tibus Heth and the Provists who first endangered and then caused the burning of Luminaire VII - Caldari Prime through their actions of aggression against the Federation.
For 4 years and 8 months the Titan Class Leviathan - The Shiigeru was in orbit over Caldari Prime. An ominous reminder of the illegal breach of Federation Space by Caldari Naval Forces, holding their own homeworld, as well as that of now several generations of Gallenteans, hostage.
In the lead up to the battle, Provist leadership relayed an executive message from Tibus Heth to the Admiral of The Shiigeru to bring the Titan into low orbit over the planet, thus further endangering those on the ground. The intention to use the Titans super weapons to punish those whose views conflicted with that of State Leadership, in particular that of Tibus Heth and his Provist supporters.
This foolish and dangerous maneuvering of a Titan Class warship already illegally located within Federation Space would contribute to it's demise and the razing of the City of Arcurio when the Federation launched a justified assault on the Shiigeru.
The Shiigeru would never have burned upon the surface of Caldari Prime, had it not been for the illegal breach of Federation Space.
The planet would not have the scars of disaster, a chilling reminder of the dark days of Heth's rule over The Caldari.
Public Channel: Polaris-Public
Roleplaying Channel: Gallente Lounge
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Tristan Valentina
Moira.
Villore Accords
22
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Posted - 2015.03.27 04:11:53 -
[94] - Quote
We burned Caldari Prime? Pretty sure a falling Caldari Navy Carrier did that. Could be wrong but pretty sure. That is why you don't fly capitals in a planets gravity well.
And didn't it get blown up for picking a fight with concord? Again might be wrong as all of that is second hand info.
Tristan |
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
Heiian Conglomerate
1404
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Posted - 2015.03.27 04:40:45 -
[95] - Quote
Dailar Toralen wrote:Us not keeping the peace? Says the Villore Accord. Your people are the one's who burned our homeworld. And it is 'mine', and that of the whole Caldari State! Caldari Prime is our homeworld, and you burned it. How dare a member of the Villore Accord attempt to represent Caldari Prime!
Villore Accords?? Burning things???
They couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag.
The only things that burn when Villore Accords are around are the Caldari Modules which are set to overheat.
https://soundcloud.com/ibanezlaney
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Rinai Vero
Moira.
Villore Accords
533
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Posted - 2015.03.27 04:43:45 -
[96] - Quote
Caldari State Badposting. Shots fired. |
Tyrel Toov
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
232
|
Posted - 2015.03.27 04:55:31 -
[97] - Quote
IbanezLaney wrote:
The only things that burn when Villore Accords are around are the Caldari Modules which are set to overheat.
If the modules are the only thing burning, then even set to overheat you still can't manage enough damage to make VA burn?
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
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Rinai Vero
Moira.
Villore Accords
537
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Posted - 2015.03.27 04:57:26 -
[98] - Quote
Don't worry, those flames are just our structure tanks. |
Tyrel Toov
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
232
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Posted - 2015.03.27 05:04:10 -
[99] - Quote
Rinai Vero wrote:Don't worry, those flames are just our structure tanks.
Structure tank = best tank.
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
Multicultural F1 Brigade
4575
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Posted - 2015.03.27 05:16:07 -
[100] - Quote
Tristan Valentina wrote:We burned Caldari Prime? Pretty sure a falling Caldari Navy Carrier did that. Could be wrong but pretty sure. That is why you don't fly capitals in a planets gravity well.
And didn't it get blown up for picking a fight with concord? Again might be wrong as all of that is second hand info.
Tristan
Yes. You are wrong.
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions."
"Only a killer would know that..."
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IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
Heiian Conglomerate
1404
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Posted - 2015.03.27 08:20:56 -
[101] - Quote
Tyrel Toov wrote:IbanezLaney wrote:
The only things that burn when Villore Accords are around are the Caldari Modules which are set to overheat.
If the modules are the only thing burning, then even set to overheat you still can't manage enough damage to make VA burn?
Hmm - I see what you did there.
I edited my post to undo your cleverness. lol
https://soundcloud.com/ibanezlaney
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Nomistrav
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
295
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Posted - 2015.03.27 09:15:06 -
[102] - Quote
I'd like to make a declaration of refocusing - this topic is not at all about the Battle of Caldari Prime or who has the right to speak about what; we do not bear any more right to speak than someone else out of sheer belonging or descent. We are all entitled to a right to speak our minds and it is unfair to not allow the other to speak their case, even if it may be hyperbolic or even anecdotal...
Set aside the differences, if but a moment, so that we may consider the problem that is being brought to the table. I fear that stubbornness is getting in the way of reason and rationale once more over what is, in this light, superficial. This is not to devalue the lives lost on Caldari Prime (I was one of the combatants, trying to save friends on the ground) or any lives lost in this ongoing conflict that never seems to end... This is simply to draw attention to the fact that it is re-circulating back into the traditional differences of philosophy and opinion that ultimately never accomplish anything.
Let me be clear, nothing is ever going to be gained from the dialogue I am witnessing today. Perhaps my words will shed some enlightenment and perspective to change the flow of words, that we may accomplish something useful.
Third Place Winner
Pod and Planet Fiction Contest YC114
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Astera Zandraki
Aideron Robotics
99
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Posted - 2015.03.27 09:33:25 -
[103] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Tristan Valentina wrote:We burned Caldari Prime? Pretty sure a falling Caldari Navy Carrier did that. Could be wrong but pretty sure. That is why you don't fly capitals in a planets gravity well.
And didn't it get blown up for picking a fight with concord? Again might be wrong as all of that is second hand info.
Tristan Yes. You are wrong.
Yea, She is.
The Carrier fell on Gallente Prime.
The Titan fell on Caldari Prime, because putting that thing in low orbit was a GREAT idea.
You know, when a leadership transition nearly results in the burning of an entire planet, dya ever thing there might be something wrong with your system? Even the Empire does it better, Tuulinen.
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Bataav
Intaki Liberation Front
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
251
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Posted - 2015.03.27 13:29:53 -
[104] - Quote
Nomistrav wrote:Let me be clear, nothing is ever going to be gained from the dialogue I am witnessing today.
Oh I don't know.
The next time someone asks me why the people of Intaki might want to be independent of the Federation, I can point them to this discussion.
It serves as a concise example of what happens every time Intaki's place in New Eden is discussed.
Some within the Federation and State cannot help themselves but to fall back on the age-old habit of using Intaki as a tool to fight their opponents.
Voices of reason quickly become lost in the storm, and as the two sides argue with each other, Intaki itself becomes forgotten.
Independence would deny both sides their would-be weapon of choice. The CEWPA front lines would shift, allowing those intent on pursuing conflict to redeploy, and Intaki and her colonies might just have an opportunity to tred a path more peaceful.
Bataav
Mahesha | Intaki Liberation Front & Intaki Prosperity Initiative
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Nomistrav
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
296
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Posted - 2015.03.27 14:05:49 -
[105] - Quote
Bataav wrote:Nomistrav wrote:Let me be clear, nothing is ever going to be gained from the dialogue I am witnessing today. Oh I don't know. The next time someone asks me why the people of Intaki might want to be independent of the Federation, I can point them to this discussion. It serves as a concise example of what happens every time Intaki's place in New Eden is discussed. Some within the Federation and State cannot help themselves but to fall back on the age-old habit of using Intaki as a tool to fight their opponents. Voices of reason quickly become lost in the storm, and as the two sides argue with each other, Intaki itself becomes forgotten. Independence would deny both sides their would-be weapon of choice. The CEWPA front lines would shift, allowing those intent on pursuing conflict to redeploy, and Intaki and her colonies might just have an opportunity to tred a path more peaceful.
One would expect that there is too much to be gained from leaving Intaki in the state that it is, in that case. I'll not delve into half-thought conspiracy theories but if there was any real momentum to have Intaki a more secure, peaceful province then we'd have already seen it happen.
Third Place Winner
Pod and Planet Fiction Contest YC114
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Rinai Vero
Moira.
Villore Accords
542
|
Posted - 2015.03.27 15:01:14 -
[106] - Quote
Bataav wrote:Nomistrav wrote:Let me be clear, nothing is ever going to be gained from the dialogue I am witnessing today. Oh I don't know. The next time someone asks me why the people of Intaki might want to be independent of the Federation, I can point them to this discussion. It serves as a concise example of what happens every time Intaki's place in New Eden is discussed.
So, in other words: discussion of Intaki is just like every other subject on the IGS? |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
Multicultural F1 Brigade
4578
|
Posted - 2015.03.27 16:15:16 -
[107] - Quote
Astera Zandraki wrote:Yea, She is.
The Carrier fell on Gallente Prime.
The Titan fell on Caldari Prime, because putting that thing in low orbit was a GREAT idea.
You know, when a leadership transition nearly results in the burning of an entire planet, dya ever thing there might be something wrong with your system? Even the Empire does it better, Tuulinen.
Talking of leadership transitions requiring dropping a titan on an inhabited world, can we remember that Tibus Heth did NOT drop the titan on Caldari Prime and neither did he cause it to be dropped. The thing had been there quite safely for many years without incident until, in an election year, Roden launched Operation Highlander.
We both know that Shiigeru would NEVER have fired on the surface of Caldari Prime - it would have been a sacrilege unthinkable and even Heth's hand-picked woman gave her life rather than commit it.
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions."
"Only a killer would know that..."
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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
Multicultural F1 Brigade
4578
|
Posted - 2015.03.27 16:17:32 -
[108] - Quote
Bataav wrote:Independence would deny both sides their would-be weapon of choice. The CEWPA front lines would shift, allowing those intent on pursuing conflict to redeploy, and Intaki and her colonies might just have an opportunity to tred a path more peaceful.
This phase of the conversation has NOTHING to do with Intaki and everything to do with revisionist idiots who like to blame the mistakes of their government on the victims of it.
But, yes, the sorts of people you describe DO exist. Don't allow them to make your homeworld a point of contention in this centuries old struggle. Opt for independence and be free of it forever - who knows, perhaps I'll buy some real estate and join you.
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions."
"Only a killer would know that..."
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Tyrel Toov
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
232
|
Posted - 2015.03.27 16:49:14 -
[109] - Quote
IbanezLaney wrote:Tyrel Toov wrote:IbanezLaney wrote:
The only things that burn when Villore Accords are around are the Caldari Modules which are set to overheat.
If the modules are the only thing burning, then even set to overheat you still can't manage enough damage to make VA burn? Hmm - I see what you did there. I edited my post to undo your cleverness. lol
Awwww, that's cheating.
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
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Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
3451
|
Posted - 2015.03.27 16:57:31 -
[110] - Quote
Hi guys, what's going on in thi-- oh. Nevermind
Ch+½j+ì Katrina Oniseki
~ (RDC) Chief Operations Officer
~ [I-RED] Director of Internal Affairs
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Rinai Vero
Moira.
Villore Accords
542
|
Posted - 2015.03.27 17:03:32 -
[111] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Bataav wrote:Independence would deny both sides their would-be weapon of choice. The CEWPA front lines would shift, allowing those intent on pursuing conflict to redeploy, and Intaki and her colonies might just have an opportunity to tred a path more peaceful. This phase of the conversation has NOTHING to do with Intaki and everything to do with revisionist idiots who like to blame the mistakes of their government on the victims of it. But, yes, the sorts of people you describe DO exist. Don't allow them to make your homeworld a point of contention in this centuries old struggle. Opt for independence and be free of it forever - who knows, perhaps I'll buy some real estate and join you.
First mention of Caldari Prime in this thread: Post #19 by Jukko Riis, Caldari Loyalist. First person to mention planetary Bombardment? Jukko Riis (#73) again, then (#76) you. Dailar Toralen decided to directly accuse (#84) Villore Accords of bombarding the planet ourselves! At which point (#90) you chimed in to accuse the Federation of "burning our homeworld" twice.
Sorry, Pieter: disagreeing with you isn't "revisionist." You don't get to write the history of a day I lived through no matter how arrogant you are.
Yet again, we see in this discussion the mewling ever present whine of Caldari victimhood reaching its full pitch. |
Tyrel Toov
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
232
|
Posted - 2015.03.27 17:15:13 -
[112] - Quote
Katrina Oniseki wrote:Hi guys, what's going on in thi-- oh. Nevermind
Stay awhile, and listen. You'll regre-.... errrrr won't regret it.
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
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Bourbon Limoges
Maison Ceramique Limoges Chocolatiers
27
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Posted - 2015.03.27 17:34:48 -
[113] - Quote
It seems almost trivial to manipulate Caldari blowhards into making discussions about topics potentially inconvenient to the Federation instead all about Caldari blowhards. Although open mockery might risk reversing our good fortune, I suspect that it will instead result in Caldari blowingharder. Let's call it a "sociological experiment." |
Jev North
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
Multicultural F1 Brigade
196
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Posted - 2015.03.27 17:39:50 -
[114] - Quote
It's like I left only yesterday. This conversation mirrors ones I saw two years ago, or six, for that matter, down to the comma. |
Noden Vorpalstar
The Knights of Polaris
413
|
Posted - 2015.03.27 17:40:35 -
[115] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:This phase of the conversation has NOTHING to do with Intaki and everything to do with revisionist idiots who like to blame the mistakes of their government on the victims of it.
The only revisionists I'm seeing are those loyalists of the State afraid to be confronted with the truth about both the illegal and idiotic actions conducted by the State which led to that mass casualty disaster.
The crew of the Shiigeru had an unfortunate posting. As should be expected they did their duty. The Titan itself, however, was a legal military target and it's destruction is completely justified.
Public Channel: Polaris-Public
Roleplaying Channel: Gallente Lounge
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Liam Antolliere
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
259
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Posted - 2015.03.27 17:45:21 -
[116] - Quote
Monsieur Tuulinen,
For a man who clearly states that he deals only with facts, particularly in reference to the late Admiral Noir and the Malkalen Disaster, you seem quick to insinuate opinion when it defends your argument.
I don't know whether or not the Shiigeru would have fired upon Caldari Prime. What I do know is that it was ordered to, by Tibus Heth. I also know that the Admiral who refused the order paid with her life, something reserved for treason or military gross neglect in most societies.
Those are the facts and nothing more.
Now, can we please return to the discussion at hand or cease discussion altogether? This is not about Caldari, this is not about Gallente - it is about the Intaki and they deserve more than us bickering back and forth over the same tired arguments.
"Let it never be said that I have not been true to myself and, in so doing, true to those around me."
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Nomistrav
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
297
|
Posted - 2015.03.27 17:49:14 -
[117] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Bataav wrote:Independence would deny both sides their would-be weapon of choice. The CEWPA front lines would shift, allowing those intent on pursuing conflict to redeploy, and Intaki and her colonies might just have an opportunity to tred a path more peaceful. This phase of the conversation has NOTHING to do with Intaki and everything to do with revisionist idiots who like to blame the mistakes of their government on the victims of it.
Not unlike a man who would simply dam off the river to keep the fish from swimming upstream. Denying the birthright of the conversation topic at hand (even in title) for the sake of continuing an argument with a granite wall, expecting it to give way while also refusing personal compromise. Worse yet, over an event that has already transpired, in vain of those who had suffered it's transgressions.
Anger betrays rationality and is therefore... unreliable. Anger as a means of expressing a premise is designed not to change the views of the person but to criticize. Ultimately what results is the inexplicable loop of discontent. Anger does bring extra energy, but it is blind. The question you have to ask is whether or not that energy is worth closing off the mind to the possibilities.
Third Place Winner
Pod and Planet Fiction Contest YC114
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Rinai Vero
Moira.
Villore Accords
545
|
Posted - 2015.03.27 17:56:51 -
[118] - Quote
As I said a while ago, the origin of this topic was specifically targeted to incite conflict through its blatant hostility towards the Federation. It seems mostly to have served that purpose among most of the Caldari participants. Our Intaki neighbors, wisely, seem to have been mostly content to observe.
My original intent in participating was to clarify GMVA's current diplomatic relationship vis a vis the ILF, and our official political position regarding ongoing Intaki issues. I remain willing to discuss both issues further, although perhaps it would be better to do so in private, rather than in the theater of the IGS.
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Vechtor
DuPont Enterprises
33
|
Posted - 2015.03.27 18:20:05 -
[119] - Quote
This topic shows why
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=412633
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Dailar Toralen
Toralen Industries
5
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Posted - 2015.03.27 18:49:25 -
[120] - Quote
Aedre Lafisques wrote:Dailar Toralen wrote:Us not keeping the peace? Says the Villore Accord. Your people are the one's who burned our homeworld. And it is 'mine', and that of the whole Caldari State! Caldari Prime is our homeworld, and you burned it. How dare a member of the Villore Accord attempt to represent Caldari Prime! This seems like you're gunning for a fight. Mlle. Vero and others that hail from the Caldari Prime of today are exactly who we should be listening to when it comes to deciding what to 'do' with these planets. They have family there, and have lost family there. I'm afraid you may be trying to illicit an emotional response in this thread, one that would be quite justified at this point. Likewise, we should be handling Intaki with Intaki, not dealing blows over their head. If we don't focus on the matter at hand, we disrespect the conversation.
I apologize, I understand where you are coming from. I just can't stand a member of the Villore Accord pretending to represent Caldari Prime.
We are Toralen Industries. It doesn't matter if you fight for money, idealogies, or because it's what you are good at and it doesn't matter if you fight threw trade, combat, or diplomacy. No matter what or how you fight, there's a place for you.
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