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Rhombus
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Posted - 2003.11.03 08:50:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Rhombus on 03/11/2003 09:02:50
Hi,
there are a lot of threads, where people complained about other players throwing out goods at dumping-prices an such problems. I think most of these complaints are correct, not only because I personally would like to see a more realistic trade inside the world of EVE.
What I miss is the following:
1) Profitable trade-runs
I would prefer to travel the galaxy to earn money, not to hang round in asteroid belts.
2) Regional market developments
Another point which is related to profitable trading. Goods and prices should change between the regions of the different peoples. Political or economical events should have an influency on the market.
3) Supply-and-demand driven prices
Players generally throw their stuff out via the trade channel, ruining any worth of producing goods. So why should one strive for low production-costs, if some &؛+*%&! dumps me?
I thought about the following to get an 'EVE-economy' working: The emphasis of trading should be put on the so called 'NPC-market'. The trade-option should therefore be taken away from the station-enviroment. It could appear at some - maybe changing - locations as a real black-market. Additionally, all goods should be tradeable via the NPC-market.
This may change the way people play EVE, but to my mind, this game get a little boring. A more complex trade-system would offer many new concepts for playing (like security services, good brokerage, etc).
Any thought to develop this idea, improve it or do you think things are just fine?
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Eleanor Scurvato
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Posted - 2003.11.03 10:26:00 -
[2]
some good points the Rhombus, and I agree with many of them.
Removing the trade option would not stop smaller amounts of movement, as this could hapen from a cargo can in space regardless. Dependent upon trust of course..
Lets hope it all works out as you hope, I enjoy the transportation of trade routes. Its a challenge to work out where to and from are, etc.
Good luck
IMTC Elite Stilletto Interceptor
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Rhombus
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Posted - 2003.11.04 07:26:00 -
[3]
*bump*
... anyone (else)?
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Mirvnillith
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Posted - 2003.11.04 09:34:00 -
[4]
Being one of the price-dumpers (on a very small scale, of course) I partly "blame" NPC loot.
My "dumps" are all basic NPC drops which gives me more sold than recycled even at low prices (compared to region's best market price). So I dump them to earn more ISK. Is that wrong?
It's hard to make money on something available "for free" as they WILL get dumped for quick cash. I'm all for letting NPCs drop only named items :)
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Implement forum search already!!! |
psychonaut
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Posted - 2003.11.04 10:33:00 -
[5]
Mirvnillith the common problem - nothing is free in eve you spent time and effort getting those drops.....
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Verbal Kint
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Posted - 2003.11.04 11:52:00 -
[6]
yea kill my livelihood will you.
just about to have a shop up and running, I'll admit it's peanuts compared to what i can make in the field. But around a half a mill a day in Garagesales, i would say it is worth the bother.
I'm not the biggest tradesman around i'll admit, but i like to manufacture things and put them on the market at fair pricez.
I don't concentrate much on where and when i sell things so Trade runs and the like is way out'a my head. I just put the goods on the market and then if people want to sell them somewhere else they can haul it.¦
And as i'm just getting the local market up and running i have no experience in what people want and what they wanna pay for it so for now i'm guessing and trying and burning my paws a bit. But that's ok a part of the game to.
the NPC market... now for a game that shouldn't have one, it's an intriguing idea. Have to say i'm against locking all things in a NPC driven market.
Would have nothing against hog my wares to a 'decent' broker so he can take all the risks on the market. But that would just add a layer to the market not really remove one.
Have to say that i'm not happy to see the 'Dumpers' any more than the next guy over, but at least they use the market.
Markets problem has been that i hasn't been lucrative to manufacture and sell stuff compared to what you can make 'out there', so people have only produced and sold what was 'lucrative' and no one has gone into the 'regular' market, as i think CCP planned we did. hence player driven economy.
I'll recommend people to go have a look at the game called 'Patrician', retuaght me how to do the trading part of the game.
Sincerely
Verbal.
Verbal Kint - Grumpy ol' c0ot. |
Caleb Ayrania
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Posted - 2003.11.04 12:10:00 -
[7]
Greatest problem is we still have no working tradeskill..
So there is no reason for people to go trading freight goods.. and the earnings on it are to small, at least atm..
Second reason, is the lame prcers in the game.. Not the low ones, thats quite legal to sell low if you have stuff, the problem is idiotic pricings, like to some extend the miner2 in the beginning. If something cost 50k to produce, only reason you can ask 1 mil, is if you have a monopoly, and even then its a bit stupid, because you leave out a lot of potential custommers each time you raise a price by 100%. We should be around 20k players in total, so in thoery, there should be a demand around that at least, not taking losses, and multiple units needed. M2 produce around 50 per day, thats quite a lot of days, or many BPs needed to supply fully the market.
On your other market points, that there should be local developments, I can only say afaik CCP want you to make that.. Use your tools, skills and knowledge and in time what you ask is exactly what will develop..
Well No more ranting..
Caleb Out..
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Caleb Ayrania
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Posted - 2003.11.04 13:01:00 -
[8]
My comment here, is in part what I think is the big problem, as allready mentioned here elsewhere in part..
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=41661
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Enviri Nakun
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Posted - 2003.11.04 18:32:00 -
[9]
price dumpers are part of a real working economy, in the US economy, profit margins for perfect competition (most things in eve) are incedibly slim, and only by selling huge quantities is profit made. The only times that things are sold way above cost is when someone in the game has a partial monopoly or everyone who has that item agrees to price it a certain way. Just because someone doesn't want to join a cartel to keep something at a certain price (miner IIs let's say) doesn't mean they're wrong. Heck there's an IN GAME solution to this, hire some pirates or just go yourself and kill them, possibly taking their bp if they're stupid. but maybe every time they leave a station you kill them, "bully" them around till they follow your prices.
It can be done, you are just lazy and want insane profits on something for 0 work.
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Rhombus
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Posted - 2003.11.04 19:31:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Rhombus on 04/11/2003 19:35:57
You can't compare the EVE-market to a real economy, that's the problem. If you talk about price-dumping you can not simply say that it's okay in reality, so it's okay in EVE.
The prices on the EVE-market are definately not influenced by supply-and-demand or production costs. If you start a strategic dumping-campaign, it hurts you as well!
Without a transparent pricing-scheme and a (at least somewhat) centralized way of trading goods, such things as ingame-'cartels' or -piracy do not have any sense. The EVE-economy won't grow by the 'work' and archievements of the players. Goods will simply come to life and be destroyed - nothing in between.
It's not about lazyness but the love for a game, which uses 10% percent of its potential. This is the central point I do dislike. I play since BETA and will buy my first BS today or tomorrow - have earned the money up to 90% by mining.
Players want to specialize - like Verbal building up his own business - and we should ask for (simple) changes to open up new possibilities for that. To my mind, trade (and connected businesses) will the multiplicator for completely new ways to play EVE:
- Security Services for PC-caravans
- Black Market Dealers (if black markets are dangerous places)
- Smugglers
- Blockade Strategies for regions (and not such nonsense like MOOs blockade in Lonetrek a few months ago)
@Caleb: I think we shouldn't think about 20K players. According to the logging-stats there may be 6K max. I don't ask how many will be there be in 6 months but what will the players be doing in 6 months? All flying around in BS's and...?
So, I think price-dumping is okay... but the player with the highest buy-order (!) should get the stuff. 
I would like to see working profit-margins, strategic-dumping (not carelessness-dumping), regional changes that really influence the market and technological innovations (through research) instead of blueprint-monopoly.
Are you really satisfied with the fact that you work for or inside of a market nobody really cares about?
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Fred0
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Posted - 2003.11.04 20:10:00 -
[11]
By Rhombus:
The prices on the EVE-market are definately not influenced by supply-and-demand or production costs. If you start a strategic dumping-campaign, it hurts you as well!
I disagree. Supply and demand works in EVE. Not perfectly for the loot items but very good imho for items like the M2's.
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Slam
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Posted - 2003.11.04 22:29:00 -
[12]
Somehow people who cannot figure out the market always claims it is "broken".
-there is INSANELY profitable trade runs in the game.
-Eve players as a whole are usually "dumb". You can make millions if you are better at assesing how much a certain item is worth.
And I'm a total idiot for pointing these things out to you. That is infact the main problem. The people who figured things out aint likely to share knowledge, since it cuts their profit.
This does not mean the market is perfect. But if you think you cant make 100 of millions, even in a few days, you are dead wrong!
Do not dispare - there is light at the end of the tunnel.
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Enraku Reynolt
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Posted - 2003.11.05 04:04:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Enraku Reynolt on 05/11/2003 04:05:10
please tell me then, cause Im only getting around 2 million a day playing 4-6 hours a day
I keep hearing people say "Im making billions a week" hell, if your that rich, you dont need anymore, share the info
wait, maybe yes your making good cash, buts its notwhere near that amount but you just want to make people that are having a hard time feel worse without helping them in anyway
and to think, I respected Big cause I thought they helped new players
I truely hope your a exception and not the norm in Big
------------------------------------------------
Do not let the world change you.
Change the world
Here's everything I know about war: somebody wins, somebody loses, and nothing is ever the sa |
Muaddid
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Posted - 2003.11.05 04:52:00 -
[14]
the market was killed when the highway was created, its that simple
On vacations (need a new sig too) |
Enraku Reynolt
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Posted - 2003.11.05 04:59:00 -
[15]
killed? then the highway is Jack Kavokian
Market was terminal long before the highway
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Do not let the world change you.
Change the world
Here's everything I know about war: somebody wins, somebody loses, and nothing is ever the sa |
JP Beauregard
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Posted - 2003.11.05 08:21:00 -
[16]
 Quote:
Somehow people who cannot figure out the market always claims it is "broken".
-there is INSANELY profitable trade runs in the game.
[...]
And I'm a total idiot for pointing these things out to you. That is infact the main problem. The people who figured things out aint likely to share knowledge, since it cuts their profit.
Amen to that. And with a bit of research you won't even have to work at it.
JP Beauregard
=== The Pilkington Guides to EVE === |
Rhombus
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Posted - 2003.11.05 08:51:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Rhombus on 05/11/2003 09:10:46
Edited by: Rhombus on 05/11/2003 09:01:51
First of all, I do not say or believe that players are dump or that the market is 'broken'. My intention is to show up and discuss options to improve the game.
I have contact with quite some players via the channels and so I think I can guess at what ranges you can make money through mining or hunting-and-selling.
Specialized mining (all relevant skills maxed + drones): 6-8M ISK/6h
Specialized hunting (0.3-0.1 security): 8-9M ISK/6h ... sorry, don't have a BS.
Trade-runs are obviously not the way to come to wealth, or please, show me one trade-run (Iteron V) which makes you half the money you could earn by mining (Dominix) in the same time.
Secondly, that the priciples of supply-and-demand always affect the pricing of goods is be correct. In regard to the pricing of the Miner 2 it was correct as well - a lot of people wanted it and few were available.
Nevertheless I do criticise the reason for this pricing: a monoplistic handout of this basic technology to whom...? I really appreciate the discussion about the ways of introducing new technology (EVE Idea Lab).
I do not want to get the same amount of ISK/time like big corps can generate it, but I demand more possibilities to build up growing businesses.
The current system only suits for big (and existing) corps who can simply generate the biggest turnover. Your options:
-> do mine
لل-> do buy battleships
لللل-> do piracy
لللل-> do produce
لللللل-> do research
To my mind, the number of ways to earn money could and should be much higher. Furthermore the prices must be more transparent, what requires a market and not a bazaar.
Ok, my ideas may surely not be liked by those who have arranged themselves to this system or like to keep their high status - thus (at least a little) disliking new ways of competition.
Am I wrong... or hey, all you (new and creative) ISK-froggopoppillionaires, where are you?
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Fred0
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Posted - 2003.11.05 10:16:00 -
[18]
Surely the highway can only have ruined the central regions merging them into one market.
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Slam
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Posted - 2003.11.05 12:20:00 -
[19]
Ok 1 more time:
Trade channels or public forums are not the places to go if you want the REALLY good information.
Find some experienced friends or join a corporation that knows how things work.
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Fred0
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Posted - 2003.11.05 12:27:00 -
[20]
Make a spreadsheet, with all interesting goods. Visit the outer regions. Items sell at extraordinary prices there because location becomes premium when you are out there and not close to a highway.
Equipments that have no better loot versions of it might be one way to go. Look up warp stabs in the outer regions.
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Slam
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Posted - 2003.11.05 12:42:00 -
[21]
Quote:
and to think, I respected Big cause I thought they helped new players
Coming from a member of Everlasting Vendetta this has to be answered.
I'm president of trade in BIG. My sole purpose contributing to this thread was to give a ray of hope without giving out concrete info that would cripple the income of my department. My examples of income was naturally BEST CASE. Anybody knowing the market can tell you that some times you make A LOT of cash in a short time - sometimes you make less.
As a friend I can tell you that if you only make 2m isk for 4-6 hours work of trading you need to ask around in your corporation. I'm almost 100% sure you have some guys that can tell you what you are doing wrong.
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Verto
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Posted - 2003.11.12 06:14:00 -
[22]
If you look at it from another way
if you make 2 or 3 mil in 6 hours your doing it right your making isk.
My point is that just because Mr x makes 10mil in 3 hours from trading he may be risking a lot of isk if he gets jacked by PC/NPC rats at any point.
The high profit runs my make you more isk but sometime the ones that make 4isk/unit can be very profitable . Quafe is a classic avg price 53isk/unit demand price at 57isk/unit. 4isk/unit profit. the volum is only .1m3 so that 10 units per 1m3 profit 40isk
If you only have a 3900 cargo space thats 39000 units at a time
39000x53= 2067000isk
sell @ 57
39000x57=2223000isk
profit 156k
most runs can be as little as 3 jumps. thats 10 mins travel time.
Cant make that mining unless your in low sec.
So the trade part of this game works you just have to look at it and work out which is best .
look a big rock .... oh there another big rock..... look mummy more big rocks |
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