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Obil Que
Star Explorers
Reckoning Star Alliance
229
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Posted - 2015.04.01 16:23:06 -
[1] - Quote
This, 100%
It isn't just in wormhole space either, I've used watchlists to engage in "market PvP" and 0.01 people after they log off. It is used extensively in high-sec wardec'ing to keep tabs on the enemy without being anywhere near them.
They should be changed to mutual approval to achieve the social goals and eliminate the free intel uses |
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Reckoning Star Alliance
229
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Posted - 2015.04.01 16:31:34 -
[2] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:Chance Ravinne wrote:I love watch lists as much as the next guy, but sometimes it feels overpowered as an intelligence source. Especially in w space where the lack of local adds to the mystery and shroud, but watch lists kind of undermine that. Any thoughts? How do you feel about local. If there we ever overpowered free intel... local chat would be it. Since you're a CSM and since you brought it up could you do us a favor and give your views as to the differences as you see them between the watchlist and local. Local - intant free intel you only have to be logged in for. Used costantly to avoid conflict. Allows risk free game play in all but WH. Watchlist - instant, but at least you have to do some up front work and add the dude for it to work (so not exactly 100% free). It's primarily used as an aid in creating conflict - not in avoiding it.
Not Chance, but I can see one major distinction
Local - only works in local
Watchlist - works anywhere in New Eden
Not saying Local is good, but it isn't of quite the same caliber, IMO, as the watchlist when it comes to scope
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Obil Que
Star Explorers
Reckoning Star Alliance
231
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Posted - 2015.04.02 12:53:02 -
[3] - Quote
Candi LeMew wrote:Zappity wrote:That's exactly my point. No local is good because it adds risk and challenge and makes the game better because free intel is bad and cheapens tactics and all the rest. Unless you're talking about watchlists, apparently, where all that stuff is just fine.
You can even record people's log on/off patterns with the notification feed just by setting the history to on and leaving your character logged in. Ridiculous. Yep, no local is good. That's partly why many wormholers enjoy living in w-space. In your other post you mentioned wormhole community makes noise about no local? Wat.gif? Why would we? We're happy. Don't care about what goes on in k-space for the most part. The fact with watchlists is the majority of people don't have a problem and this honestly wouldn't even be a thing had Chance not made a thread about it. Nobody cared, other than a few scattered people, many of whom aren't even wormholers. Point in case is this thread that's predominantly full of people saying watchlists are fine. It's not wormholers making any noise really, other than to say "Away with this crap.".
People here also cried the sky is falling when the wormhole mass jump changes were discussed because they didn't want their MO to change. The list of negative effects of non-consensual watchlist is extensive
- Observing player log on/log off behavior without being present (sound familiar to NPC kill API? Positive this is still being used to do logoff-ski's by knowing when the target logs in)
- Correlating character behavior (matching mains to alts) through no active action other than log off/log on patterns (very important to gauge the number of *real* pilots in a corporation)
- Altering to war target activity without being in system (in local)
- Monitoring super/titan pilots for activity from anywhere in New Eden (see all the PL *multi-year* drops on pilots after watching for them)
- Market PvP when a player logs off
- Watchlisting an entire corporation to know their online numbers without scouting
- Tracking people camping/nomading in your wormhole (done this myself)
Name me one benefit to the watchlist the is not available through consensual watchlisting (ie: social connections) that falls into the arena of valid *active* information gathering. It seems to me that the people here that have no problem with watchlisting simply want the above benefits without having to do any scouting/active observing of their targets other than finding their corp name and watchlisting everyone on evewho.
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Obil Que
Star Explorers
Reckoning Star Alliance
232
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Posted - 2015.04.02 15:38:31 -
[4] - Quote
Candi LeMew wrote:Obil Que wrote:Name me one benefit to the watchlist the is not available through consensual watchlisting (ie: social connections) that falls into the arena of valid *active* information gathering. It seems to me that the people here that have no problem with watchlisting simply want the above benefits without having to do any scouting/active observing of their targets other than finding their corp name and watchlisting everyone on evewho.
Well you see the thing is, I don't have to name anything or prove anything. You are the one who wants to change what is already a part of the game I'm fine with, so that falls on your shoulders and by your logic we should nerf forums, character sheets, employment history, corp and pretty much everything unless you're on grid with a pilot. How far do we take this "free intel" silliness? It functions fine for both social and tactical use and it's balanced. The intel gained by it is negligible because it can work both ways. It's just one of the aspects of the world here that we live with. At the end of the day it's still a game that needs to provide some conveniences for it's players.
The intel gained is not somehow diminished because you have the same tool at your disposal. There is no balance in the tactical use. The notion that it works both ways tactically is flawed. Yes, it is a tool that can be used by both parties, but it is not a mechanic that you know is being used on you therefore you have no indication to respond. It does not alert you that you are being watchlisted. I could be on hundreds of watchlists and have no idea that it is the case so how do I tactically have the ability to respond to those gathering intel on me specifically?
Yes, locator agents operate in a similar way but it is at least tempered with a cost to the user and requirement for standings and location and not freely given through no effort.
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Obil Que
Star Explorers
Reckoning Star Alliance
233
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Posted - 2015.04.03 12:20:42 -
[5] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:Getting rid of the watch list allows the risk averse players to be more risk aversetical. Getting rid of it is bad. It removes a mechanism that enhances the ability to blow up another dudes space stuff.
What is more risk averse then gathering intel on people without being outside their POS shield?
Serendipity Lost wrote:I use the watch list to blow folks up. Folks that don't like fighting on my terms want to take my tools away. I'm ok w/ folks using the watch list the same way I do to exploit me and blow me up. That's part of the game. The drive to remove watch list functionality boils down directly to risk aversion.
This whole attempt to get rid of the watch list is an attempt to make eve more risk averse. It's that simple. Any advantages w/ gimping or removing the current watch list stem soley from the desire of risk averse folks to be free of those who hunt them.
I want people who gather intel to have to endure risk to do it. Be in space. Be at my POS. Don't gather intel on me from across New Eden with zero risk to yourself to know my patterns and activities. I see nothing but risk averse people wanting to have their perfect intel on my activities handed to them on a silver platter. I want those people to have to be in space directly and actively gathering intel at risk to themselves for doing it.
Yes, I want to take your tool away. Your zero effort, zero risk tool to hunt with. |
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Reckoning Star Alliance
233
|
Posted - 2015.04.03 12:59:05 -
[6] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:So here's how I use it.
You're on grid - I watch list you. We play wh space games for a short period of time (measured in a few hours). If you log off or if my connection to you goes away - I have no further interest in you. Every few days I delete you from my watchlist as the endless flasing of the log in / log out icons nauseates me.
You're a long time space pal - I watch list you and put you in a folder. I deal w/ your icons flashing in the corner as you lod in and out because I like you. Occaisionally I'll convo you or what not as is appropriate for long time space pals.
You're a contact of interest - I watch list you. I actively see you log in and out and try to group you w/ other folks, maybe nail down some log in habits. Maybe nail down that you don't log in and only play forums. All the kind of stuff guys hate about free no risk intel - yeah I do some of that too.
I would prefer to keep the first two and could live w/out the third one, but you can't seperate the first from the third. You just can't. Keep it.
You'll have to just trust me that I don't sit behind pos shields all day and that I actually play the game. Take last night, I sat in an anom for almost an hour in a drake until the wh inhabitants showed up to gank me. Had I not non-consentually wl the legion pilot I would not have known he was watching me. We probably would have rolled away from him and missed an opportunity to flip their gank attempt on them.
I'm not risk averse AND I want to keep the wl for pvp reasons. Don't try to arbitrarily paint me otherwise.
In many ways you make my argument for me. In what way should you have the intel to know the legion pilot was watching you without having to devote a resource to physically observing him? Instead you avoided the risk or need to have a second pilot for scouting and chose to use the watchlist to achive that intel gathering.
That is avoiding risk and avoiding playing a part of the game in my book.
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