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Hellraiza666
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.10.25 00:47:00 -
[1]
Im sorry if there is already a thread on this, aint seen one yet, but
With the tracking penalty now on null, and also on void, and the hyperion having no tracking bonus, we now have a gall Blasterboat, that cant hit for **** at close range.
Way to go tux
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El Yatta
Caldari Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2006.10.25 00:52:00 -
[2]
To be honest if the T2 ammo changes are not rethought or at least collated by a dev blog and explained, then they should definitely not go in. T2 ammo currently is unbalanced, wheras on sisi it is simply broken.
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Andrea Jaruwalski
Caldari Angel Deep Corporation
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Posted - 2006.10.25 00:53:00 -
[3]
Well Void tracking penality got changed from -50% to -25% so, on a Hyperion you only have 12.5% less tracking than a megathron.
Neutron mega with Void will actually have better tracking than now tho, so wewt. 6.5km Falloff with Void kinda stinks tho.
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Hllaxiu
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.10.25 00:56:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Andrea Jaruwalski Well Void tracking penality got changed from -50% to -25% so, on a Hyperion you only have 12.5% less tracking than a megathron.
Neutron mega with Void will actually have better tracking than now tho, so wewt. 6.5km Falloff with Void kinda stinks tho.
With Gal BS5 void on megaT = antimatter on Hyperion, tracking wise. In fact, the megaT has a 3.125% edge. --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson |
babylonstew
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.25 00:56:00 -
[5]
as a point of interest, i did notice a rig that gives hybrids a 20% tracking bonus not that i dissagree with you but might be worth looking at the whole picture now these rigs, boosters etc... are being released etc... again, dont take it as a flame but there is more to making a good ship that slots and bonuses now i think
Forum advice Linkage |
Enortiz
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Posted - 2006.10.25 00:59:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Enortiz on 25/10/2006 01:02:11
Originally by: Hellraiza666 Im sorry if there is already a thread on this, aint seen one yet, but
With the tracking penalty now on null, and also on void, and the hyperion having no tracking bonus, we now have a gall Blasterboat, that cant hit for **** at close range.
Way to go tux
Dont think so,even with tracking penalty a blaster still tracks better than a mega pulse laser. And i have no problems hitting a webbt cruiser on close range, and a hyperion should have a webber. With 2 webbers (or webber +3 webber drones) ,you have no problems hitting most ceptors with mega pulse lasers on 5k range.(never tried it on one of those 12k+ fast missile crows,but they dont come in webber range anyway) And,null is anti BS ammo,and if you dont hit a BS,you really doing something wrong.
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Illuminaty
ISS Logistics Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.25 01:01:00 -
[7]
Hyperion has a 5th midslot so it can run a dual web or a tracking computer.
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Nebuli
Caldari Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2006.10.25 01:32:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Illuminaty Hyperion has a 5th midslot so it can run a dual web or a tracking computer.
Well thats all good and well, but it is now pretty much forced to do so now to hit anything, where as the megathron wasnt forced to do so, in effect mega has an extra slot lol.
And I dont think nerfing tech II blaster ammo makes the Hype useless now, it was useless before
CEO - Art of War
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Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2006.10.25 01:44:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Azerrad InExile on 25/10/2006 01:44:10
Originally by: Nebuli Well thats all good and well, but it is now pretty much forced to do so now to hit anything, where as the megathron wasnt forced to do so, in effect mega has an extra slot lol.
And the Hyperion gets a rep bonus which essentially gives it a free medium rep (when you fit a large rep)... thats what bonuses do, free up slots.
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Nebuli
Caldari Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2006.10.25 01:45:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Azerrad InExile Edited by: Azerrad InExile on 25/10/2006 01:44:10
Originally by: Nebuli Well thats all good and well, but it is now pretty much forced to do so now to hit anything, where as the megathron wasnt forced to do so, in effect mega has an extra slot lol.
And the Hyperion gets a rep bonus which essentially gives it a free medium rep (when you fit a large rep)... thats what bonuses do, free up slots.
Now go figure out why with the new HP values, and plate values how totaly USELESS that is...
CEO - Art of War
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lofty29
Praxiteles Inc. E N I G M A
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Posted - 2006.10.25 01:49:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Nebuli
Originally by: Azerrad InExile Edited by: Azerrad InExile on 25/10/2006 01:44:10
Originally by: Nebuli Well thats all good and well, but it is now pretty much forced to do so now to hit anything, where as the megathron wasnt forced to do so, in effect mega has an extra slot lol.
And the Hyperion gets a rep bonus which essentially gives it a free medium rep (when you fit a large rep)... thats what bonuses do, free up slots.
Now go figure out why with the new HP values, and plate values how totaly USELESS that is...
I agree. Increase armor rep bonus's to 10% ---
Praxiteles Inc. is Recruiting! |
Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2006.10.25 01:54:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Nebuli Now go figure out why with the new HP values, and plate values how totaly USELESS that is...
Not useless... just not as useful as a resistance bonus.
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Nebuli
Caldari Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2006.10.25 02:08:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Azerrad InExile
Originally by: Nebuli Now go figure out why with the new HP values, and plate values how totaly USELESS that is...
Not useless... just not as useful as a resistance bonus.
Or tracking bonus....
CEO - Art of War
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Satsukage
Nubs. Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.10.25 02:11:00 -
[14]
Between rigs (unneeded imo) ship changes/new ships (\o/), and now ammo ( >_< ) .... they seem to be making more changes at one time than any in recent memory to game balance.
After looking at ammo changes especially, I honestly think they are trying to choke down to much at one time. Its going to be somewhat painfull for a while.
I'd honestly let the players digest the bulk of the changes, then mess with our ammo based on real-game results. |
Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.10.25 02:12:00 -
[15]
The idea of a blaster boat without an MWD bonus or a tracking bonus is ludicrous independent of the ammo changes.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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BlackHorizon
Caldari Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.10.25 02:14:00 -
[16]
I agree with the sentiments in this thread. i'd like to add that one could fit out a megathron with 2 nanos and be faster than the Hyperion.
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Hex'Caliber
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.10.25 04:08:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Enortiz Edited by: Enortiz on 25/10/2006 01:02:11
Dont think so,even with tracking penalty a blaster still tracks better than a mega pulse laser. And i have no problems hitting a webbt cruiser on close range, and a hyperion should have a webber. With 2 webbers (or webber +3 webber drones) ,you have no problems hitting most ceptors with mega pulse lasers on 5k range.(never tried it on one of those 12k+ fast missile crows,but they dont come in webber range anyway) And,null is anti BS ammo,and if you dont hit a BS,you really doing something wrong.
Lmao your argument is so skewed it canÆt even be taken seriously, due in part to the fact lasers are the best tracking weapons in the game.
When calculating the chance to hit and the quality of that hit, a guns tracking and distance to target are not the only factorÆs taken into account, relative transversal is far higher at a blasters optimal range than the intended 24km base optimal of a mega pulse. While a blasters tracking mod is indeed better than a mega pulse, its optimal is one third that of the pulse, but it doesnÆt even have twice the tracking of a mega pulse. Every turret user can give examples of weapons hitting a target far outside their intended optimal, I can still hit webbed frigates with a 425mm rail at ranges of about eight or nine km/s. Provided I can keep the transversal low enough, even though its tracking is far worse than your pulse.
What is more important is the number of hits and the quality of hits when your weapon is used AT it's optimal. We already get misses and light hits etc using large blasters at optimal on webbed targets, Christ I still get them using blasters on a station when standing still, at optimal, taking into account the throns tracking bonus, ammo that doesn't introduce a tracking penalty and motion prediction 5 trained.
The simple fact is, with no tracking bonus and the penalty to tracking from null and void ammo now, the Hyperion will never even come close to achieving its theoretical max dps at optimal range, we will be lucky to get near half that, making the thron a far better raw dps blaster boat than our new "specialist blaster boat". Lets not forget it is nigh on impossible to fit a full rack of neutrons our highest dps blasters into the hyp if we want to fit anything even resembling a tank due to its having a lower grid than the thron.
Oh and btw, the range bonuses listed in the item database on eveÆs website are wrong and are swapped over, void is -25% range and null is + 65%. Null is NOT anti bs ammo, it is the longer ranged, lower damage t2 ammo, far more useful for targets faster than a battleship as it has a lower penalty to tracking (actually as it stands in live it has no penalty to tracking). Void is the ammo of choice if you know you are going head to head with another battleship and can get in close.
Regards HexCaliber |
Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2006.10.25 04:11:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Hex'Caliber When calculating the chance to hit and the quality of that hit, a guns tracking and distance to target are not the only factorÆs taken into account
Tracking doesn't factor into quality of hit, only chance to hit.
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Afonso Henriques
Minmatar Low Grade Ore The SUdden Death Squad
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Posted - 2006.10.25 04:18:00 -
[19]
Atleast if doesnt get a shield boosting bonus.
quit your whining and fly any one of the many I-WIN button ships you already got if you don;t like it.
Seriously, the only thing I hate more than a whiney gallante pilot is a *****ing caldari pilot.
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Drazhar Kain
Alpha Production Technologies Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.10.25 04:35:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Nebuli
Originally by: Azerrad InExile Edited by: Azerrad InExile on 25/10/2006 01:44:10
Originally by: Nebuli Well thats all good and well, but it is now pretty much forced to do so now to hit anything, where as the megathron wasnt forced to do so, in effect mega has an extra slot lol.
And the Hyperion gets a rep bonus which essentially gives it a free medium rep (when you fit a large rep)... thats what bonuses do, free up slots.
Now go figure out why with the new HP values, and plate values how totaly USELESS that is...
Actually, with the HP bonus, all boosters / repairers will maintain basically the same effect. The more HP your enemy has to chew through, the longer you can run your repairer, which in turn produces more overall HP for your enemy to chew through.... an amount proportional to your total HP. Where it gets interesting, though, is when you're approaching your enemy's damage potential with repairing ability...
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Scordite
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Posted - 2006.10.25 04:43:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Drazhar Kain Actually, with the HP bonus, all boosters / repairers will maintain basically the same effect. The more HP your enemy has to chew through, the longer you can run your repairer, which in turn produces more overall HP for your enemy to chew through.... an amount proportional to your total HP. Where it gets interesting, though, is when you're approaching your enemy's damage potential with repairing ability...
Now add cap to the equation.
----------------------------------------------- The only legitimate use of the BLINK tag: Schr÷dinger's cat is [BLINK] not [/BLINK] dead. |
MECTO
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Posted - 2006.10.25 05:00:00 -
[22]
good changes, all t2 ammo need reworking and null was one of those no drawbacks superior range on blasterboats is too imba
Originally by: Kusotarre I am awesome in fleets, everyone on teamspeak trembles in fear as my battlecry blasts through their headphones, heralding a new era of target-less randomosity.
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Hex'Caliber
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.10.25 05:05:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Azerrad InExile
Originally by: Hex'Caliber When calculating the chance to hit and the quality of that hit, a guns tracking and distance to target are not the only factorÆs taken into account
Tracking doesn't factor into quality of hit, only chance to hit.
Actually it does and has been tested and proven more times than I care to remember here are a couple of threads on the topic . the first one is much more recent. Linkage 1 Linkage 2
And to finish a direct quote from TomB "Accuracy which creates the damage, when your accuracy is poor vs. target you have more chance of bad hits and misses, when your accuracy is good vs. target you have more chance of good hits.
TomB Lead Designer EVE Online" That can be found here; Linkage 3
Anything which improves your chance to hit also increases the quality of hits. Regards HexCaliber |
Yazoul Samaiel
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.10.25 05:08:00 -
[24]
No tracking bonus, T2 ammo has no penalty to tracking , ship doesnt carry 5 large drones.
I realy wonder what good is the hyperion for then ??? Mega does the role as a blaster boat way much better since the whole idea of blaster boats is to get close and crit as much as possible but that aint gonna happen with the above reasons , so maybe CCP doesnt want it to be a blasterboat? Sicne there is nothing on that ship anymore that indicates that it is a blasterboat bonus wise It realy needs some serious thinking about its role , i wouldnt mind if they even make it a missle boat , something outta the box.
"There is no such thing as innocence , only different degrees of guilt"
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Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2006.10.25 05:28:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Hex'Caliber Actually it does and has been tested and proven more times than I care to remember here are a couple of threads on the topic . the first one is much more recent. Linkage 1 Linkage 2
And to finish a direct quote from TomB "Accuracy which creates the damage, when your accuracy is poor vs. target you have more chance of bad hits and misses, when your accuracy is good vs. target you have more chance of good hits.
TomB Lead Designer EVE Online" That can be found here; Linkage 3
Anything which improves your chance to hit also increases the quality of hits.
Congratulations.. you have successfully proven that RANGE factors into quality of hits. I never said that it didn't, however not a single one of your links proves that TRACKING factors into quality of hits.
Link 1 gives a number of different experiments of changing RANGE at which a Megathron is shooting at a Raven. Tracking was never varied throughout the experiments so the experiments can give no meaningful results as to how changes in tracking affect quality of hits. Furthermore, I'm not terribly convinced that the experiments are even statistically valid.
Link 2 again discusses hit quality and RANGE... tracking isn't even mentioned until the 18th post.
Tom B talks about Acurracy which is dependent on???? RANGE! Inside optimal you theoretically have 100% accuracy, inside falloff the accuracy decreases to 0 at optimal + 2x falloff. Unless you know some other formula for accuracy that involves tracking, Tom B's post does not help you.
Try this for a test: shoot at a stationary battleship inside optimal with frigate class guns (high tracking), now shoot at the same stationary battleship inside optimal with battleship class guns (low tracking). Do you get any increase in the number of wrecking hits (assuming enough samples to be statistically valid) with the frigate class guns (high tracking) than you do with the battleship class guns (low tracking)? From what I have experienced the answer is no, but if you have data that shows otherwise I would love to see it since its always good to have a better understanding of how things work.
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Hex'Caliber
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.10.25 16:57:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Hex''Caliber on 25/10/2006 16:58:54 I never said that range didnÆt factor into it, ANYTHING that improves chance to hit also improves the quality of hit's. While the discussions were indeed about hit chance at differing ranges it emerged that the quality of hits was also affected as chance to hit improved. Incidentally, at zero velocity and zero transversal the random chance to hit modifier has a larger effect on the to hit calculations, in turn causing the huge spread of hit types. How on earth do you propose to test the effects of tracking in an example where tracking has no part in the calculation?
I have a test for you one that I have carried out myself and parsed the log files; Jump in your battle ship with 3 tracking links fitted, orbit a large storage container at optimal and shoot at the can. Use a reasonable sample count about 500 (you will probably have to replace the can, if you do ensure that orbit velocity has stabilised before commencing to shoot), repeat the exercise with the tracking links switched off, then repeat the above at -50% optimal and at optimal +50% falloff. Now comes the boring part if you canÆt write your own code to parse the results, calculate the percentage of hit types. In each instance that your tracking links were enabled you will see a greater percentage of high quality hits, the results of the test depend on the type of weapon you use blaster ac etc, weapons with better tracking tend not to show such a huge difference as you approach the 100% chance to hit cut off.
Carrying out to hit samples at zero velocity is pointless for the reason I already stated, there is a random modifier that has a larger impact on the overall results when two of the variables have been reduced to zero and tracking is removed from the calculation all together.
Increasing the number of samples in the transversal test will help to smooth out the effect of the random modifier but it cannot remove it completely. Also, obviously once the to hit calculations start returning 100% chance to hit only the random modifier has any further impact, you could increase tracking 10 fold but that couldnÆt affect or improve chance to hit calculations any further. If you wish, carry out the experiment with differing sizes of weapon too, there you will see that smaller weapons have a consistently higher percentage of good quality hits in a transversal engagement.
All that above was just a long winded way to prove exactly what Tomb confirmed, if you improve your chance to hit, the chance of better quality hits improves. You can try and refute TomB all you want or twist semantics, but until you become a dev, I will take his word over yours when discussing eve online.
In any transversal engagement, the relative tracking of you and your opponent is a ôfactorö in the chance to hit calculations; ergo it has an effect on the quality of hits. If you canÆt understand that, I wasted my time typing this post and you will continue to argue that black is in fact white and continue to ignore the obvious.
Regards HexCaliber |
JoCool
Caldari Infinitus Odium
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Posted - 2006.10.25 17:22:00 -
[27]
You have a 5th medium slot. Use it for a Tracking Computer, problem solved.
In return you gain a med repairer for the missing 7th low slot.
You have a 8th gun which gives you more damage, for a just slightly smaller dronebay.
In the end you still do more damage than a Megathron. What's your problem? _______________________________________________________________________ Trey Azagthoth > Youre my idol Jocool. I wanna be like Jocool jr. or Jocool the sequel! Oveur > ohnoes jocool |
Tactician
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.10.25 18:01:00 -
[28]
I must say I do question the logic of making a faster more agile blaster ship and then nerfing its ability to capitalise on it by screwing its tracking.
1600mm plates = damage mod for hyperion
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Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2006.10.25 18:04:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Hex'Caliber argument
I'll concede that if you can't hit the target (i.e. target transversal is faster than your tracking) then you won't get any hits of any quality and if you can hit the target (i.e. target transversal is slower than your tracking) then you will get hits of varying quality. If this is what you consider as tracking factoring into hit quality then you win.
However, increasing tracking when you can already hit the target does not mean you will get better quality hits on average and decreasing tracking and still being able to hit the target does not mean you will get lower quality hits on average. From what I can tell the tracking roll is 0 or 1, you can either track the target or you can't. No amount of extra tracking beyond what you need to hit the target is going to change that 1 to any higher value resulting in better hit chances.
Also I'm still not convinced that TomBs accuracy post has anything to do with this discussion either since he was limiting his comments to accuracy.
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Nebuli
Caldari Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2006.10.25 18:49:00 -
[30]
Originally by: JoCool You have a 5th medium slot. Use it for a Tracking Computer, problem solved.
In return you gain a med repairer for the missing 7th low slot.
You have a 8th gun which gives you more damage, for a just slightly smaller dronebay.
In the end you still do more damage than a Megathron. What's your problem?
CEO - Art of War
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