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Hitpoint bonuses and new style of warfare in Kali

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MECTO	Posted - 2006.10.28 16:33:00 - [31] Originally by: Argyle Jones You know, I really liked combat the way it was. Fast paced, strategic, energetic. Got my pulse up every time. Nothing could be worse than for long, drawn out tanking wars. YAWN!!! CCP had honed the balance of the ships and mods over the years, coming pretty close to perfection. (Expecting whiner flame after that statement). Now they're tossing in such major changes to combat, it's like we have to start all over again. Personally I'm abit worried. I have alot of expensive ships in my hangars, that I really like flying but with all that's going on I'm expecting the value of 'em to drop like nothing we've ever seen. Why should a t2 ship have less rigs and less HP increase than their t1 counterparts? They'll be equally tougher? Sure, but people are paying 300m for a vagabond these days, they get 25m from the insurance of it. Shouldn't it be a little tougher than a couple of t1 cruisers? Not to mention that the invention career is gonna deflate all those assets people have been storing up. Same goes for the faction battleships. You've introduced tier 3 bs's. Now raise the faction battleships above those. They're the rare, hard earned ships that people have been paying billions of isk for. Don't devaluate that. 50% hitpoints increase? 50% on extenders and plates? Easier access to t2 equipment? Sounds to me like CCP are catering to the "casual" players that didn't have the resolve to play the game the way it was. Why don't just introduce a magic healer that'll restore your ship with 10% damage to structure, and a 10 minute reconstruction disease. Welcome to carebear heaven :( /Argyle Jones well /sighed mostly. it is a stage where balance between pvp and pve is BROKEN. ice has moved.. in future patchs/addons its ccp must choose what to do: make game a challenge or lead it to casual side. most times/in mmo history ever1 choosed second. Reason is simple - profit. It's Great Being Carebear in Kali - aint it? Originally by: Tuxford In this picture you might think that Gallente totally pwn. Well they're alright
Viktor Fyretracker Caldari Worms Corp	Posted - 2006.10.28 16:39:00 - [32] HACs will be fine, they should be outclassed by battlecruisers and battleships. T2 shouldnt be automaticly better then everything else on all counts.
Argyle Jones Minmatar Wreckless Abandon	Posted - 2006.10.28 16:48:00 - [33] Originally by: Viktor Fyretracker HACs will be fine, they should be outclassed by battlecruisers and battleships. T2 shouldnt be automaticly better then everything else on all counts. Indeed, your argument is flawless. Let me guess: "Because you said so?".
Anasur	Posted - 2006.10.28 20:58:00 - [34] Murder One - Your shield and armor tank changes hugely favor armor tankers, rediculously so. Passive tanking only works well on very specialized setups, the passive regen on my BS is something like 6 shield per second, not even enough to notice. If anything shield extenders need to be buffed for BS usage, or an X-Large varient added. Right now an armor plate gives almost twice the hp as a shield extender. If they don't do something about that, shield tanking in pvp will be a thing of the past as 25000hp armor tankers will obliterate anything relying on shields. Run the numbers if you don't believe me, lol.
rgreat Gallente OEG	Posted - 2006.10.29 00:53:00 - [35] Originally by: Anasur If they don't do something about that, shield tanking in pvp will be a thing of the past as 25000hp armor tankers will obliterate anything relying on shields. Run the numbers if you don't believe me, lol. 3x1600 plates on Dominix give me 32000hp without slave set. And i still have 4 low slots to fit hardeners. I tanked carrier fire for 10 min, then i left.
Drutort Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.29 07:26:00 - [36] the cap on regular ships could be tweaked a little bit... BUT logistics ships should come into play for specialized setups were ships would run out of there own cap and need aid from other ships... carriers really need boosted cap amount and reduced cap recharge? OR the capital remotes need major cap reduction... they could nerf plates and expanders in giving the negative side effects though... that will be fair enough, people will go for either there regular active fit or coupe with the negative effects of plates/expanders
Maverick McDougel Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.30 10:19:00 - [37] Originally by: Mortuus Its all about the passively tanked BC for cheap fun PvP. this is so true. a passive tank ferox even t1 fitted makes a nice cheap pvp ship. support BattleClinic buy gtc's from BattleClinic
Laythun Undercover Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.30 10:29:00 - [38] Please lower the cap usage on amarr weapons , i know all about the 'no ammo' arguement, but please let me shoot my weapons for more that 2mins Undercover Brothers It's great being Amarr, aint it?Ö
Zoxia Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2006.10.30 12:41:00 - [39] Edited by: Zoxia on 30/10/2006 12:43:07 I think its great they have made it so you need others to help in battle. I think there are a few skills to help with cap also that some people do not have trained fully. Maybe change your set ups alittle to help cap and not soo much weapons weapons weapons. looks like the game will have alot more things to think about now other than fit kill fit kill. also just think kali 2 is right around the corner :) fun when games change dramatically as it makes every one have to rethink and replan and learn things all over again :D I think some of you are just tooo comfortable with your older set ups ;) think outside the bottle!! all together now ..... oooooohhhhmmmmm
Philip Sterling GALAXIAN Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.10.30 14:01:00 - [40] Originally by: Mortuus Its all about the passively tanked BC for cheap fun PvP. I've already set aside the isk to buy the bpos for the corp. I think the Drake is gonna be my new mistress. they'll be cheap, insurable, and damn mean.
Xerpex Revelation Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.30 14:44:00 - [41] Edited by: Xerpex on 30/10/2006 14:44:41 I haven't read the thread, so sorry if I'm repeating something, but I don't think that reps are as nerfed as you think. Since the battles tend to be longer, reps, overall, tend to give more hp's than plates, since they will running for longer. i.e.: (using rmr stats, because im lazy, and the actual numbers dont really matter, just the idea I'm trying to put through) 1 med rep gived about 33hp/s. 800mm plate gives 1680hp's A 800mm plate is worth 1680/33 = 50.9 secs of repping. Therefore, on short fights (<50 secs) a plate is better, while in longer fights (>50 secs, like it's gonna be in kali) a rep is going to be more useful. So my point is, longer fights technically nerf plates... That's why they are getting a boost too in kali, and thats why I wouldn't be so sure about the ZOMG ACTIVE TANKS SUCK mentality.
Earthan Gallente GREY COUNCIL	Posted - 2006.10.30 14:55:00 - [42] Originally by: MECTO Originally by: Argyle Jones You know, I really liked combat the way it was. Fast paced, strategic, energetic. Got my pulse up every time. Nothing could be worse than for long, drawn out tanking wars. YAWN!!! CCP had honed the balance of the ships and mods over the years, coming pretty close to perfection. (Expecting whiner flame after that statement). Now they're tossing in such major changes to combat, it's like we have to start all over again. Personally I'm abit worried. I have alot of expensive ships in my hangars, that I really like flying but with all that's going on I'm expecting the value of 'em to drop like nothing we've ever seen. Why should a t2 ship have less rigs and less HP increase than their t1 counterparts? They'll be equally tougher? Sure, but people are paying 300m for a vagabond these days, they get 25m from the insurance of it. Shouldn't it be a little tougher than a couple of t1 cruisers? Not to mention that the invention career is gonna deflate all those assets people have been storing up. Same goes for the faction battleships. You've introduced tier 3 bs's. Now raise the faction battleships above those. They're the rare, hard earned ships that people have been paying billions of isk for. Don't devaluate that. 50% hitpoints increase? 50% on extenders and plates? Easier access to t2 equipment? Sounds to me like CCP are catering to the "casual" players that didn't have the resolve to play the game the way it was. Why don't just introduce a magic healer that'll restore your ship with 10% damage to structure, and a 10 minute reconstruction disease. Welcome to carebear heaven :( /Argyle Jones well /sighed mostly. it is a stage where balance between pvp and pve is BROKEN. ice has moved.. in future patchs/addons its ccp must choose what to do: make game a challenge or lead it to casual side. most times/in mmo history ever1 choosed second. Reason is simple - profit. Disagreed.Sure amny of the ships/modules prices will change /drop, but what does it have with carebearing?? So maybe vgabonds will get much cheaper, what does it have to do with carebearing? With long battles fianlly you will have time to think and maybe use logistics cruisers and other tactics, not just f1-f8 fast and focus fire,only viable tactic. - A knight in space,war veteran,Grey Council military officer. Grey Council webpage
Centurin Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2006.10.30 14:59:00 - [43] Originally by: Earthan So maybe vgabonds will get much cheaper... Cheaper? They'll be even more expensive because they'll be even more pwnmobiles than they are now. ----------------------------------------------- "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" - Optimus Prime
Earthan Gallente GREY COUNCIL	Posted - 2006.10.30 15:01:00 - [44] Originally by: Centurin Originally by: Earthan So maybe vgabonds will get much cheaper... Cheaper? They'll be even more expensive because they'll be even more pwnmobiles than they are now. Really the orginal poster said they will drop in prices... dont know about specific blalances but imho the direction is great , i cant wait for these changes. - A knight in space,war veteran,Grey Council military officer. Grey Council webpage
Atrial Quartz Gallente	Posted - 2006.10.30 15:19:00 - [45] Would it make more sence to make only capitol class ships effective aginst each other? Because it seems to me that people are looking at ship classes entirely the wrong way. the Bigger = Better mentallity isn't a good one for a game like this. Where the opertunity for so much more varied play is. The problem is the game isnt strictly a PVP experience. the same ships used for pvp are used for farming and ratting and so on. it would be simple to say battleships are realy only effective aginst other battleships and above. Making each step up or down the size ladder penalize your effectiveness to it. A battlecruiser is a middle ground and should be effective aginst both classes and destroyer and so on. While a frigate alone cant hope of destroying a battleship or a cruiser has almost no chance at putting much more than a few dents in the armor their smaller class should give some advantages to avoiding being hit. If you specialize in a smaller class of ship you shouldent be utterly useless aginst someone who did the 3 month evemon race to battleships and t2 guns. Is this what kali is tring to do? have more of a seperation of combat so that a fleet action dosent turn into everyone just alpha striking the same target over and over. If something is fundamentaly broken little "bandaid" style fixes arent going to solve it.
Commander Thrawn Tarnak inc. Eternal Empire	Posted - 2006.10.30 15:19:00 - [46] Edited by: Commander Thrawn on 30/10/2006 15:19:12 hybrids and laser really need to drop cap usage, im gonna have to buy a freaking raven and train ACs for me amarr ships.
Cygnet Lythanea Ninjitsu Heavy Industries Black Sun Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.30 22:59:00 - [47] Well, as a long time passive tanker... I personally like this.. but... I do think that having multiple armor plates should be nerfed, like back when they gave you a speed reduction. This way, yes, BS could have ungodly HP... but you could get away (bar being webbed). Also, I do think that some of thes don't nessicarilly need more cap, but rather a higher rate of cap regen. I've had some pretty cap intensive setups, and almost all of them maxed out a little over 15 cap per second. Now, with cap rigs, this may change, but... Amarr ships will be bleeding cap all through battles. Hit with a NOS? Fugedaboutit. That's all she wrote. She's hunting you, pirate scum...
Atrial Quartz Gallente	Posted - 2006.10.31 01:16:00 - [48] Everyone calls NOS the "I-Win" button of pvp now days. Is this really true? from my experience with it you have to be at pretty close range to nos someone, and that normaly puts you in the range of all other nasty weapons that can mess a ship up like Smart bombs for instance. Close range missles and so on. Lasers are a weapon that never runs out of amunition so the capisitor cost was their ballencing act. Not shure why hybrids take such a hit though (other than the realism factor that railguns and any kind of partical excelerator/mass driver takes a buttload of power) Arty, Lasers and Missles can be loaded to do EM dammage as far as ive found rails and blasters can not. I am not seeing the ballance here could someone clarify?
rgreat Gallente OEG	Posted - 2006.10.31 03:39:00 - [49] Originally by: Xerpex A 800mm plate is worth 1680/33 = 50.9 secs of repping. Therefore, on short fights (<50 secs) a plate is better, while in longer fights (>50 secs, like it's gonna be in kali) a rep is going to be more useful. Two words: "NO CAP". Most of us can't use med repper for 50+ sec with other devices engaged... Also... it is not 1680. 1682 is current t2 plate. Kali version get 50% boost = 2523hp, also with skills 2523*1.25 = 3153hp thats equal 3153/33 = 95 seconds. Your cap will die much earlier.
rgreat Gallente OEG	Posted - 2006.10.31 03:42:00 - [50] Originally by: Atrial Quartz Everyone calls NOS the "I-Win" button of pvp now days. Is this really true? Not is not I-Win buttin. Its I-WIN vs smaller ships button... ;)
rgreat Gallente OEG	Posted - 2006.10.31 03:58:00 - [51] Edited by: rgreat on 31/10/2006 04:13:52 Originally by: Cygnet Lythanea Well, as a long time passive tanker... I personally like this.. but... I do think that having multiple armor plates should be nerfed, like back when they gave you a speed reduction. That way missile/med-long range guns/Shield users will not be affected, while blaster/autocannon/and other armor users who need fast approach will be. Quote: This way, yes, BS could have ungodly HP... but you could get away (bar being webbed). Battleships usually cant get away by using speed anyway. They can only warp/jump away. Quote: Also, I do think that some of thes don't nessicarilly need more cap, but rather a higher rate of cap regen. That will bring crazy cap recharge rates and unbreakable tanks with the usage of good cap recharge modules. Especially on capitals. Good capacitor size bonus with penalty on capacitor recharge rate will cure most of the problems imho. There will be longer, but time limited active tanks. If i'm not missing something in the picture. Quote: I've had some pretty cap intensive setups, and almost all of them maxed out a little over 15 cap per second. Typical BlasterThron setup uses around 150+ cap per second. Armar battleships with lasers uses around the same. Maybe you fly passive shield tanked caldary?:) Quote: Now, with cap rigs, this may change, but... Amarr ships will be bleeding cap all through battles. Hit with a NOS? Fugedaboutit. That's all she wrote. Agree. Armarr with lasers will die out.
Earthan Gallente GREY COUNCIL	Posted - 2006.10.31 08:03:00 - [52] Originally by: Rells Of course you forgot one critical point. Since gate and dock agression timers have not changed, you can count on a ship to be able to kill several lighter ship targets, deagress and jump away. Here is the scene, a BS is attacked by 5 cruisers on a gate, he kills 2, deagresses and then jumps away before the enemy can pierce his tank. Second of all log out tactics are now king. Get locked by a fleet of smaller ships? Just log off. yep good point i was thinkiong to about it, it will become a problem. - A knight in space,war veteran,Grey Council military officer. Grey Council webpage

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