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Matrices Reborn
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Posted - 2006.10.31 05:23:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Matrices Reborn on 31/10/2006 05:23:08 If anyone can now slap a plate or extender on with extra HP, then bonuses for armor and shield repair become pretty worthless.
This affects the Brutix and Cyclone lines of BC and CS.
Once again proving that it is unwise to implement drastic changes without so much as a giving a rationalization for the chosen method to achieve the end goal, which itself is not necessarily desirable, of longer fights.
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Iyanna Swift
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Posted - 2006.10.31 06:37:00 -
[2]
No it just means that you can tank dps greater than your rep rate for longer.
They're still very benificial.
You may have an arguement as in a select few cases it may be more benificial to drop a second or third rep for a resist or something.... but I don't think it's common or a problem, just a difference.
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Zosimos Sabina
Amarr Loot
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Posted - 2006.10.31 06:54:00 -
[3]
Remember, with more HP to play with, you also have more time to run your reppers.
It's not a straight up 50% nerf...
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2006.10.31 07:09:00 -
[4]
For fleet combat or high-DPS skirmishes, "high-rate" repairers/boosters were useless anyway. Now they'll be slightly less "useless", while still not "perfect".
For example, a 5% resist bonus at L5 equivalates with BOTH a +6.66% repair rate bonus at L5 and a +6.66% bonus to (relevant) hitpoints at L5. What you probably mean is the amount of the bonus was ALWAYS "underpowered", while only now can you truly appreciate just how underpowered it really is. _____ -sig-
This is my only char. These are my skills
Always question everything, including yourself |
Nyobe
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.31 09:06:00 -
[5]
The HP increase benefits repper and booster bonus ships since the big puffer gives you more fight time and as we all know, especially amor repairs still hat issues to pay off compared to a plate since fights were quite short.
double repper tanks with repper bonus (boosters + boost bonus) really benefit from kali.
If you have the cap
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Shadow Vice
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Posted - 2006.10.31 09:18:00 -
[6]
I can see where the OP is coming from here i think he means the hitpoint boot benifits the ships with resistance boneses more than the ships with repper boneses
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2006.10.31 09:26:00 -
[7]
Equally worrying is the use of Remote Repper ships. Lets face it, logistics ships had enough trouble before, they certainly don't need to be LESS useful........... -----------------------------------------------
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2006.10.31 09:38:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Patch86 Equally worrying is the use of Remote Repper ships. Lets face it, logistics ships had enough trouble before, they certainly don't need to be LESS useful...........
Actually, remote repping just got a huge BOOST with the extra buffer. As it gives you 50+% more time to lock and start repairing whoever it is that needs repairs. _____ -sig-
This is my only char. These are my skills
Always question everything, including yourself |
Nyobe
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.31 09:43:00 -
[9]
the HP boost will NOT help you tanking. it's just puffering.
Of course there will be more plate-non-repper pvp setups or small repper + 1600mm setups (like on kali zealot) but that's actually not making any kind of a better tank.
It reintroduces the old, pre stacking nerf, i-kill-you-before-you-kill-me gameplay that got lost, escpecially for amarr, with RMR and the stacking penalty on dmg mods.
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Borini
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Posted - 2006.10.31 09:56:00 -
[10]
Well i do think the plates for armor boost and the shield extenders will be less usefull as the 50% increase hits. CCP could ofcourse give those a 50% increase aswel.
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Callistus
Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.31 10:08:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Borini Well i do think the plates for armor boost and the shield extenders will be less usefull as the 50% increase hits. CCP could ofcourse give those a 50% increase aswel.
They are. --------------
[Coreli Corporation Mainfrane] |
Reatu Krentor
Minmatar Void Spiders Fate Weavers
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Posted - 2006.10.31 10:15:00 -
[12]
the shield boost amount bonus and armor repairer amount bonus(Cyclone, Brutix) are both going to be losing usefullness when comparing to the shield/armor resist bonuses(Prophecy/Ferox). The boost bonuses only increase how much is boosted per cycle of a module. Resist bonuses otoh increase the effective shield/armour hp as well as the effective shield boost/armour repair amount. The 50% boost to total hp benefits ships with resist bonuses a lot more then those with boost amount bonuses. Crystal-Slave, that way? Potential solution to the current Recon cloak and cyno bug |
Sovereign533
Caldari The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2006.10.31 11:47:00 -
[13]
Shield Recharge Rate FTW!!! just slap a number of shield rechargers and whatother modules that boost recharge rate... and you'll be fine...
to bad Armour tankers don't have this option :(...
oh well... \o/ nerf Amarr even further...
(and i never really flew Amarr >_<)
Originally by: Sovereign533 Time will tell, sooner or later, time will tell...
Second sig removed, only 1 signature graphic please - Xorus ^_^WOOHOO!!! my Sig finally got nerfed... |
MOS DEF
E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.10.31 11:54:00 -
[14]
To those fools who keep comming with the argument that you still can tank more DPS with the efficiency multirepper ships: It takes 12 cycles for a medium repper with the boost to make up for a single plate. In that time you died prolly twice. If you manage to stay alive so long you just ran out of cap sticks and can't get that 12 cycles in since you are plain out of cap.
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Matrices Reborn
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Posted - 2006.11.02 00:02:00 -
[15]
Indeed, Mos Def. I do not understand why people are having a difficult time grasping the crux of the matter here.
If I fly a Sleipnir and have a 37.5% shield boost bonus, I would be inclined to fit a boost+amp in the mids. But now that shield extenders get a 50% HP boost, my amp bonus just became that much less useful, because in some situations it may make more sense to fit extenders instead of amps or boosters.
That is to say, why should I fit 2 modules - 3 modules, including cap injector - to tank 3000 HP over X amount of time using Y cap, when I can use *one* module, a shield extender, to do that without any cap penalty? Sig radius concerns are irrelevant at the BC level.
So that is one indirect nerf. The other appears when one compares boost bonus to resist bonus. A 5% resist bonus per level, peaking at 25% at BC 5, obviously becomes better the more HP there is to be resisted in the first place! So it is a more *powerful* buffer for resistance-bonus ships than it is for shield-bonus ships.
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Xori Ruscuv
1911 ftw
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Posted - 2006.11.02 05:55:00 -
[16]
god, this is making me CRAZY. Why don't devs SEE THIS? Do they think armor tanking is OVERPOWERED? Do the devs all fly caldari!? Why don't they respond?
WTF?
This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap... |
murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.02 08:36:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv god, this is making me CRAZY. Why don't devs SEE THIS? Do they think armor tanking is OVERPOWERED? Do the devs all fly caldari!? Why don't they respond?
WTF?
same here. I don't get how I can test the ships for less than an hour and come up with all these glaring game design problems with the ship designs and balance changes while the devs have been playing with the stuff for months and think it's perfectly fine.
wtf? are they playing a different game than we are on chaos?
Because I said so...
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Xori Ruscuv
1911 ftw
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Posted - 2006.11.02 09:03:00 -
[18]
Originally by: murder one wtf? are they playing a different game than we are on chaos?
They're all flying ravens and domis
It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?
This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap... |
Lord DeFault
Minmatar Serenity Prime Xelas Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.02 09:14:00 -
[19]
For the reppers, The Hp bonus just poses as few extra seconds to live. Your ether repp'in enough or not. Cap injectors on these ships might even have reload time with a Damage control.
This could be quit interesting on the passive tank side, Min ships with there mixed slots, Should be able to pull of some nice passive tanks. Shield power relays and some extenders. Auto cannons and artys that use no cap.
I found this on the Jag and rifter to be wayyyy better than trying to shield boost. The idea of that being made stronger is very silly. Allthough very good for me...
My biggest fear is for the ranged ships. Tempest shoots a Megathon, The blasterthon just smiles and keeps coming? Stealth bombers???
The Amarr will gain yet more amour they canÆt rep fully on half there ships? Well should give em more cap to shoot instead of reppÆin lol
The PrePatch Day song |
Master OlavPancrazio
Einherjar Rising Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.02 09:19:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Master OlavPancrazio on 02/11/2006 09:20:07 I personally prefer a game where the tank is a buffer, and not an active tank. It puts more importance on doing damage, and less on DPS. You don't need x dps to kill said ship, you'll only need y damage. Personally I always thought reps and boosters aught to be in between battle type mods.
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James Snowscoran
Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.02 13:32:00 -
[21]
It's not so bad for the repairmonkeys tbh, since the buffer is very useful wit the armour rep delays.
You can argue that the cyclone, sleipnir and whassitcalled just got a slight nerf though. -----
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Yumi Katanawe
Caldari Demon Womb
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Posted - 2006.11.02 14:24:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Yumi Katanawe on 02/11/2006 14:26:43 They shieldtankers also, which means less slots for injectors, cap batteries and ofc no cpr's.
Anyways this is needed - their plan is to going forward into giving EVE combat more depth so it's less about preparation (fits) and more about what you do with the ship. So they need longer fights.
Interestingly, WoW's trying to fix their PvP problems by making fights last longer too...
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Christopher Dalran
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Posted - 2006.11.02 17:09:00 -
[23]
Where the shield recharge times on the ships also increased % to compliment the 50% hp increase? If not all the shield tanking ships will start to regenerate TONS more shield at a much faster rate and completly throw the game balance off the deep end.
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Miri Tirzan
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.02 17:37:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Miri Tirzan on 02/11/2006 17:37:50 Three things come to mind.
First, there is no such thing as passive armor tanking. There is passive resistance and active resistance but only shields have passive tanking.
Second, the passive tanking on shields is going way up, even with the 50% increase in time. Why? Because it is easier to add a few hardeners and shield boosters, all of which have been boosted by 50%. If your willing to go active resists, two boosters, a EM resist, and a invul would be a pretty good general purpose tank.
Third, armor rep's just got nerfed. While shields are not getting increased either, they are getting the free beefed up passive tanking, and that will make them better than armor tankers.
svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2006.11.02 19:48:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Miri Tirzan Edited by: Miri Tirzan on 02/11/2006 17:37:50 Three things come to mind.
First, there is no such thing as passive armor tanking. There is passive resistance and active resistance but only shields have passive tanking.
As there is only passive and active resistance for shields. Armor also has passive and active resistances. I don't see what you mean here!
Originally by: Miri Tirzan
Second, the passive tanking on shields is going way up, even with the 50% increase in time. Why? Because it is easier to add a few hardeners and shield boosters, all of which have been boosted by 50%. If your willing to go active resists, two boosters, a EM resist, and a invul would be a pretty good general purpose tank.
Two shield boosts? Like you will have a cap for that.. Maybe with a cap boost @800 but even with that you will need a cargo container to hold your batteries or something if you really want that to hold for a reasonable amount of time. As in the plates aren't boosted huh.. just fit another 1600 plate, the high end one gives you a much higher Armor bonust than the shield extenders.
Originally by: Miri Tirzan
Third, armor rep's just got nerfed. While shields are not getting increased either, they are getting the free beefed up passive tanking, and that will make them better than armor tankers.
Of course, who has the cap to use 3 Armor reps anyway for an extended amount of time imagine if your oponent was able to fit and effectively use 3 shield boosts, even 2 XLarges at all time, would you like that?
And another point, Armor in all ship classes gets a summarized higher % of resistance than the shields of the ship, even for Caldari. Just add the %. That effectively adds more res on armor than shield, even more so with the armor plates boost.
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2006.11.02 19:49:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Christopher Dalran Where the shield recharge times on the ships also increased % to compliment the 50% hp increase? If not all the shield tanking ships will start to regenerate TONS more shield at a much faster rate and completly throw the game balance off the deep end.
Don't worry Gallente, your ships are getting a HUUUGE armor plates bonus to the point that anyone can be full of them.
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Sirana Telor
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.11.03 03:03:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Black Scorpio Don't worry Gallente, your ships are getting a HUUUGE armor plates bonus to the point that anyone can be full of them.
Plates make the armor rep bonus pretty useless...
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Sal Alo
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Posted - 2006.11.03 20:54:00 -
[28]
Agree with OP
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Farrellus Cameron
Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e
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Posted - 2006.11.03 21:41:00 -
[29]
I don't agree because DPS is remaining the same. Tanking is about countering DPS, not raw HP. That's why boosting resistances is better for a tank then simply slapping another 1600mm plate on.
If they boosted armor repping it would literally be impossible to break people's armor tanks because it would significantly counter the DPS of the attacker.
If the boost was to DPS I would agree with the assertion, because then it would be easier for the DPS to overwhelm someone's tank. But that's not what is happening.
Remember, the person you are fighting with will also have boosted HP, so BOTH of you will take longer to kill. Which means you will still need an armor repper. Although it will take longer to knock you down to 50% armor, it will take YOU longer to break the other person's tank also. You will still need that armor repper to hopefully tip the balance or ate least stay in the fight longer.
Now, there is still a concern about capacitor because the battle will be laster longer, but that concern is across the board to everyone.
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LaCoHa
Caldari Deep Space Navy Caldari Deep Space Industral
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Posted - 2006.11.03 22:31:00 -
[30]
all I know is that rpr bonuses should be turned into resist bonuses.. across the board. Problem solved.
"I just slaughtered 28 people in that game of Battlefield 2 and never died. Man my e-p33n feels huge."
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