EVE Search - The Learning Skill payoff??

All Channels

Skill Discussions

The Learning Skill payoff??

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: 1 2 :: [one page]
Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 1 post(s)
Zoxia Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2006.11.02 12:30:00 - [1] Edited by: Zoxia on 02/11/2006 12:39:16 I saw theres a pay off for 4-5 pay off learning skillaround 240-400 days. what about 2-3, 3-4? it just seems like of all the learning skills this one has the LONGEST payoff times for the least benefit. would 3-4 have a 120-200 day pay off time?? I am already starting to regret training it to level 4. Perhaps it would be better to wait until later to learn this skill at all?? when your attributes are higher and you can learn it faster and have a better pay off time ratio? IS the 240 day payoff with MAX attributes? Note: I am talking about the basic learning skill that raises attributes 2%
Pottsey Gallente Acme Shipping Inc	Posted - 2006.11.02 12:49:00 - [2] DonÆt think of it as 200days+ payoff think of it as a writeoff time which was spent to learn new skills faster. When all these new skills come out in Kail itÆs the people with adv5 learning who will learn them the fastest and in that respect payoff is right away not 200days. Passive shield tanking guide click here
Zoxia Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2006.11.02 12:54:00 - [3] Edited by: Zoxia on 02/11/2006 13:03:12 Originally by: Pottsey DonÆt think of it as 200days+ payoff think of it as a writeoff time which was spent to learn new skills faster. When all these new skills come out in Kail itÆs the people with adv5 learning who will learn them the fastest and in that respect payoff is right away not 200days. well thats depends alot of total atrributes, skills, and implants. a balanced character whos piled on the learnings to 5 will not learn faster than one whos attributes have been made for a certain skill set and has learning to 3 or 4. Its just like some people start with 17 will power or 14 perception. I saw one build with 10-11 perc and will power. SO is the object to have this balanced build and have to learn the learning 2% skill because other players who specialized learn much faster??
Pottsey Gallente Acme Shipping Inc	Posted - 2006.11.02 13:20:00 - [4] Edited by: Pottsey on 02/11/2006 13:21:13 But the balanced attribute player or player with specialized attributes for certain skills with max learning will learn much better then the balanced attribute player or player with specialized attributes who donÆt have max learning. If your going play the game over 1 year+ max learning is worth while. I donÆt recall the precise number but a player with max learning learns 2.5x faster then the player without learning. EDIT: I assume the player with specialized attributes will only max learning for those attributes. Passive shield tanking guide click here
Zoxia Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2006.11.02 13:31:00 - [5] Take my own character for instance I started with a high perc and after a month and a half my stats with implants are 15/21/15/15/15 I learn some skills at an extremely fast pace for only playing for a short time. a balanced character that started with 7 perc even with all the learnings and +3 implants is what?? 21? I havent even learned perc basic 5 yet. To me that shows me some older vet characters will fly through the newer skill much faster than the avg learning build i see who has maxed there learnings. In effect making the pay off even longer in a side by side comparison with some builds. basically the fastest learning players would be those who specialized their attributes in specific skills who have trained the learnings up to a reasonable level. I understand balance but this game has a few ways of going with some support skills. your either a Miner, A Fighter, Or an Inventor to some degree. Using the correct attributes for those trades would make you succeed much quicker I think. As far as the learning skills them selves yeah I think eventually everyone will learn them to some degree or they are basically wasting time. The question here was is this ( Basic Learning ) level 4-5 2% gain even worth it??
Pottsey Gallente Acme Shipping Inc	Posted - 2006.11.02 13:47:00 - [6] ôThe question here was is this ( Basic Learning ) level 4-5 2% gain even worth it??ö Yes for two reasons first because you get to learn new skills faster then the person without lvl 5. Imagine two copies of your character one with learning 4 and one with learning 5. The learning 5 guy gets to learn all the new skills faster and be ahead of the learning 4 version of you. The second reason being is once you get lvl 5 normal you can spend a matter of hours getting adv learning 1 to 3 for a large boost. Most people find a lot of new skills come out over a year that they learn and every one of those you train while having lvl 5 leaning is pulling you ahead of the same version of you without lvl 5 leaning. The two main questions should be how long are you going play the game and how many new skills are going to come out that you couldnÆt learn now but can learn after getting lvl5 learning. Passive shield tanking guide click here
Zoxia Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2006.11.02 13:58:00 - [7] Edited by: Zoxia on 02/11/2006 14:06:43 The Basic Learning :) the one that gives you 2%. theres no advanced version of this skill. It basically gives you a smaller 2% bonus to attributes per level. And yes I agree that the reason to learn level 4-5 of an attribute skill is to get the ADV skill because its boosts your attributes by entire whole points. Even at 20 point one point added is still about a 5% bonus to attributes. The Basic Learning Skill with only a 2% bonus to attributes for level 4-5 when the pay back is over 240-400 days would seem just about the last thing youd really want to train. Again with the you learn faster than some one else thing ;)remember thats only if that person has lower starting stats and lower implants and no learnings or learning. thats leaves alot of people a ble to learn the skills much faster than alot of charcters who maxed the learnings. The fastest of course would be those who specialized and max implants and learnings. those players would learn their skills faster than anyone else. In truth since we are on the subject of ALL the learning skills. A balanced attribute character does not take advantage of the character creation tools available and is more of a jack of all trades. This type of character even with all the learnings will always be the middle of the road at learning when the newest skills come out compared to a specialized character. I also doubt the value of training adv learning to 5 in any of them. but thats another subject. ;)
Pottsey Gallente Acme Shipping Inc	Posted - 2006.11.02 14:11:00 - [8] Sorry misunderstood thought you meant all basic learning skills not just the 1 learning skills. ö Basic Learning Skill with only a 2% bonus to attributes for level 4-5 when the pay back is over 240-400 days would seem just about the last thing youd really want to train.ö I tried to explain before its can be worth while to have lvl 5 in as little as 5 dayÆs or less not always 200days. Say you stay at lvl4 and a copy of your character gets lvl 5 then in 30days new skills come out the lvl 5 version can train those new skills faster then the lvl 4 and go onto more new skills. In this situation payback is not 200days but 20days or less as the lvl 5 person has more useful new skills then the lvl 4version of you. Its the same of if you canot afford a enw skill book. Getting lvl 5 could be worthwhile while you rise the isk to buy some new skills then you train those skills with lvl 5. Payback is not 200days as you couldnÆt train those skills instead of getting lvl 5 so payback is over as soon as you buy the skill books you couldnÆt afford before. Passive shield tanking guide click here
Pottsey Gallente Acme Shipping Inc	Posted - 2006.11.02 14:12:00 - [9] ôI also doubt the value of training adv learning to 5 in any of them. but thats another subject. ;)ö I have saved weeks if not months by having adv5 so its been very worthwhile. Not doubt in my mind. Passive shield tanking guide click here
Zoxia Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2006.11.02 14:33:00 - [10] Edited by: Zoxia on 02/11/2006 14:33:36 Originally by: Pottsey ôI also doubt the value of training adv learning to 5 in any of them. but thats another subject. ;)ö I have saved weeks if not months by having adv5 so its been very worthwhile. Not doubt in my mind. really? from what I have read you only save what 5% for 65 or so days of investment. if you take a hard look at that you'll start to realize for very 100 minutes learned you saved about 5 minutes. So 65 days is about 93600 minutes of training. In order to fully pay back the time your looking at over 1872000 minutes to pay back the time spent or over 3 and 1/2 years. Mind you I did not do exact calculations but it could be even longer than that. So basically you will have to play eve for the next 3 and 1/2 years to pay off the time spent training level 5 adv learnings. I know it does not seem that way to some people but in truth yes thats how long you have to play. it would seem more effeicient to roll an alt specifically designed for each purpose in the game. just by having the right attributes 4-5 points higher you would be learning much faster.
Marine HK4861 Caldari Seoltachd	Posted - 2006.11.02 15:17:00 - [11] Originally by: Zoxia So basically you will have to play eve for the next 3 and 1/2 years to pay off the time spent training level 5 adv learnings. It very much depends on what you learn. Some characters coughTripolicough will learn all skills, thus the pay-off time for them will be that long. Specialised characters will not need certain attributes (charisma for example) so they can skip those learning skills entirely. Other people aren't interested in flying large ships, so a min/max perception and willpower isn't in their best interest.
RaTTuS BIG R i s e	Posted - 2006.11.02 15:18:00 - [12] Learning to level 5 is only a 5day skill [ish - depending] it takes a long time to make thouse 5 days lost up [ however - having it will mean that all skills in the future are faster] so it is a good investment. The other learning skills are good @ level 4 unless you play for more then 9mths or more then getting them to 5 is good - becase you then can get the advanced ones to level 3 fast - so it is not a 1 level gain it is a 4 level gain and the pay off becomes 6 months Advanced learnings to 5 - that will take 3 1/2 years to pay off .. I'm not 100% on my advnaced level 5's and proabbly wont train the remining 2 up... -- BIG Lottery, BIG Deal \| RaTTuS @ Skills Showroom
Mothmar Friedsquid Gallente Spacley Sprockets Shipyards	Posted - 2006.11.02 15:35:00 - [13] Edited by: Mothmar Friedsquid on 02/11/2006 15:38:07 When I started out I worked all the math and the learning skills are worth it if you are going to play for more than 6 Months, as long as you take them up to advanced learning level 4. Second tier level 5 is a completely different story; these skills take three years or so to pay off. If you are continuously training with a single stat (perception / willpower, quite often) it might be worthwhile to wait out the training time, but that basically doubles the total time you have to sit around and wait for the skills to finish training; this isn't really a bad thing, but it is boring. EDIT: And another thing- If you're just starting out, there's no chance you're interested in having 'all the new skills' first. There's about three or four months of 'basic' skills you're going to want to train to play in most capacities. The advanced learning skills might make sense if you're looking for a good place to put your points, I guess.... Mothmar Friedsquid. Because SWG sucked and EVE doesn't require my entire life. Currently running missions with Spacely Sprockets, Inc. We're recruiting mature and intelligent players.
Pottsey Gallente Acme Shipping Inc	Posted - 2006.11.02 15:44:00 - [14] Edited by: Pottsey on 02/11/2006 15:46:59 ôSo basically you will have to play eve for the next 3 and 1/2 years to pay off the time spent training level 5 adv learnings. ö Not from my point of view. I run out of skills to train. I learnt adv5. A new skill comes out 30days later I start learning the new skill right from day 1 I am ahead of the where I would be over using adv4. In that case adv5 was worth in it 30days not 200days. I then went on to spend 1 year learning skills that came out after I got adv5 if I had adv4 I would have a lot less useful skill points so getting adv5 was worth it in less then 1 year not 3 years. ôI know it does not seem that way to some people but in truth yes thats how long you have to play.ö As above your not factoring in new skills or skills you cannot afford. Say your on adv4 and cannot afford capitol skills you train adv5 and earn enough isk to buy all the skills to fly capital ships. You then spend a year training capital ships skills. Again adv5 was worthwhile in less then 1 year not 3 years. Being adv4 would just mean you have less useful skill points. ôjust by having the right attributes 4-5 points higher you would be learning much faster.ö For most people that works off as bad in the long term. Unless your some industrial character that never undocks chanceÆs are you need a good mix of all attributes. What happens is you train all you need in those two high attributes then you swap to low attributes based skills so you start off faster but then slow down a lot. Most professions donÆt relay on just 2 attributes. Balanced attributes are better as well because you can change jobs easier. I used to be a miner now mostly do leadership things my skills changed from being memory based to charisma based. Having balanced attributes means I can change jobs easy. I maxed out mining about a year ago so if I took just mining based attributes I would be left with a big problem as I would have learnt mining skills faster then be left learning everything else real slow. Passive shield tanking guide click here
Futuri Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2006.11.02 16:58:00 - [15] The payoff time also depends on the implants you use when training the learning skills. If you are new and are training adv learning skills to 4 with no implants, it will take you longer and the payoff is longer.
Areconus Caldari Cereal Killerz Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.11.03 02:47:00 - [16] Edited by: Areconus on 03/11/2006 02:48:34 Originally by: RaTTuS Learning to level 5 is only a 5day skill [ish - depending] it takes a long time to make thouse 5 days lost up [ however - having it will mean that all skills in the future are faster] so it is a good investment. The other learning skills are good @ level 4 unless you play for more then 9mths or more then getting them to 5 is good - becase you then can get the advanced ones to level 3 fast - so it is not a 1 level gain it is a 4 level gain and the pay off becomes 6 months Advanced learnings to 5 - that will take 3 1/2 years to pay off .. I'm not 100% on my advnaced level 5's and proabbly wont train the remining 2 up... This is exactly the way I see it: People are complaining or worrying because the calculated "payoff" value is close to a year. I think you really shouldn't view it like that at all. Because, if you HADN't trained leraning 5, then all you could have done in any other skill was 5 days of training right? So, your other 'copy' who didnt train lvl 5 is barely even ahead of you anywas. Now, think about how many times you have lost some time training. I mean, noone has trained every little second of time from the time they created their character. I think that viewing it as a 200 day payoff is negative, and of course it makes you not want to train the skill. And thus when someone says its a 200 day payoff, it makes people think they are 200 days behind where they could be, but no, you are only 5 days(depending on skills). It is just really hard to explain why it is worth it in my opinion. Some people look at it and say, well, i wont be playing for 200 days, so i dont need to train it. Woopdy doo! At the end of those 200 days, they have a rank 1 lvl 5 skill that you dont. Heck, they might have lost 5 days through various means and you could actually be ahead! And, what if you ever decided to come back and play after those 200 days? So, i think its definetly worth it to wait out the short, 5 days that will have passed in no time, and get it over with. After your done, you never have to worry about it again........ Gloria Stitz- "Try not to bring reality in to these forums Otherwise we might take the game seriously"
Zoxia Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2006.11.03 05:06:00 - [17] Edited by: Zoxia on 03/11/2006 05:06:36 5 days for a 2% increase to attributes. lets take avg skills. 39/5 = 7.8 ok now apply the 2% increase to 7.8. thats 7.956 Now goto SP per minute without learning 5 - 11.7 And then with learning 5 - 11.934 for a grand total of?? .234 lets max all skills and implants now and learning 4 ( 8% ). 22.8+(22.8 * .08) = 24.624 or 36.936 SP a minute or 19,413,562 a year. with the learning 5 ( 10% ) 22.8 + (22.8 * .1) = 25.08 or 37.62 or 19,773,072 SP a year for a total gain of .684 SP per minute so for every 10 minutes you gain 6.84 SP the skill is 201,081 SP i think ;) 293978 min pay off or 204 days approx. with maxed adv learning and implants and avg 7.8 stats. you would have to learn to adv skills in Mem/Int to get this pay off. if you had less than +5 implants the time would be longer. so you start out -201,081 SP in the hole and in 204-400 days you finally get back to square one. basically a year and a half later you will have one more rank (1)level 5 skill than you could have. hmmmm....... I think having a level 5 skill a year and a half earlier in something useful would be more of a benefit over that time.
Pottsey Gallente Acme Shipping Inc	Posted - 2006.11.03 09:27:00 - [18] ôbasically a year and a half later you will have one more rank (1)level 5 skill than you could have. hmmmm....... I think having a level 5 skill a year and a half earlier in something useful would be more of a benefit over that time.ö I still donÆt agree as right from day 1 I am ahead of the lvl 4 version of me and pulling further and further ahead with useful skills over learning lvl 5 & adv5. It can worth it to skip 1 skill you might not need to learn lvl 5 learning then train a lot of skills you need faster more so if you canot train those skills instead of learning lvl 5. Basically I start a new skill that comes out after I got learning 5 I finish it while the lvl4 version of me is still training. I move onto the next new skill while the lvl 4 version is still training the old skill. The lvl 5 version of me finish the next new skill and the gap gets bigger and bigger. So your ahead from day 1 not day 200. ôso you start out -201,081 SP in the hole and in 204-400 days you finally get back to square one.ö Its not fair to say 400days later your back at square one as in less then 100days you can be better off then the person who didnÆt have learning to level 5. It seems wrong to say 100days later I am better off then the lvl 4 version of me but it takes 400days to be back at square one and catch up with the lvl 4 version of me. Your concentrating to much on the numbers and not the practical side of the learning skills and your not factoring in all the benefits of learning skills which are making it sound a lot worse then it is. Passive shield tanking guide click here
Zoxia Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2006.11.03 11:15:00 - [19] OH THIS IS GOOD ;) Lets goto the level 4 version of you then. the level 4 version of you will be 201,081 SP ahead of your newer improved version until you earn back 201,081 SP Now how long is that going to take?? well somewhere bewteen 200-400 days give or take a few. It does not matter if you think you feel better about yourself because yourself is better then your old self. your new self still has to account for those SP the your old self did not spend like you new self did training them. In the end yes eventually your new self will end up catching your old self, but during that time your old self had an extra level 5 skill in something useful while your new self did not. So for 200-400 days your old self will be taking advantage of one or a few more skills until your new self finally once again catches up with your old self. Now I wonder if you'll say hi to your old self when you finally catch him??
Pottsey Gallente Acme Shipping Inc	Posted - 2006.11.03 11:41:00 - [20] ôthe level 4 version of you will be 201,081 SP ahead of your newer improved version until you earn back 201,081 SPö No the lvl 4 version will not be ahead he will be behind. Skills are not all the same value the lvl 4 version of me will be behind in both total and useful skill points. The lvl 4 version of me would have 1 useless or low value skill that I donÆt need. The lvl 5 version of me learns the new skills which I do need so ends up with a high value skill faster. Siege Warfare Specialist Rank 5 is worth a lot more to me then Signature Focusing Rank 5. say I maxed out all the skills I use so I decide to train learning lvl5 or something like Signature Focusing lvl 5 which I donÆt really need. I go for learning lvl 5 then Siege Warfare Specialist comes out and loads of other skills come out I train those extra fast. While the lvl 4 version of me trains Signature Focusing which is a waste then starts on the skills I really need like Siege Warfare Specialist and all the others. In other words the lvl 4 version of me is behind and lvl 5 learning paid its self back in well under 100 days. Skills can be the same rank but not same value learning high value new skills faster due to learning is often better then skipping learning and learning a low value skill. Your flaw is you treat evey skill as the same vaule and just look at the numbers. What really happened in my case was I maxed out mining had no skills to train so maxed the learning skills then gang assist among other things came out that I wanted to learn. Which is another reason I think balance attributes are better. ôbut during that time your old self had an extra level 5 skill in something useful while your new self did not.ö Also in the end my new self has a useful skill level 5 skill while my old self is still training trying to get that useful skill. You seem to ignore that fact. 7 days later my lvl 5 skill will be done on the learning lvl 5 copy of me but not done on the lvl 4 copy. This gap gets bigger and bigger. Passive shield tanking guide click here
JeanClaude DuSoir Gallente Anqara Industries	Posted - 2006.11.03 18:53:00 - [21] As far as the attribute skills, EVEMon will answer that for you. If you look on the bottom, it will tell you "Suggestions" for the attribute skills. For example, my plan explains that I am better off training Clarity III before moving on to that Battlecruiser, because I will save 4 days of training time. The Learning skill is that much simpler. It's +2% faster. With Learning I, you will learn 51 days of material in 50 days. With Learning II, you will learn 52 days of material in 50 days. With Learning V, you will learn 55 days of material in 50 days. EVEMon won't calculate a suggestion the Learning skill, as far as I can tell. This is a pretty simple calculation from your skill plan. Plug in Learning, sort it to the front. If the new number is less than the old number, then it is beneficial to learn Learning first. All levels of learning skills will "eventually" payoff. I had a skillplan (since deleted) that went out until January 2008 just to see how long it would take for Empathy V to pay out. Math, FTW!
Matalino Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.03 21:52:00 - [22] The pay off for the skill "Learning" is always fixed because it gives a fixed bonus regardless of your attributes or what you are training. For level 5 the time before you break even is 54 times the time it took to train from level 4 to level 5. So if it took you 5 days to train from level 4 to level 5 you would break even 270 days after you finished level 5, if it took you 4 days you would break even at 216 days. If it took you 6 days to train level 5 you would need 324 days to come out ahead. So the two questions you need to ask yourself are: Will I be playing for 275 days? Do I want to delay my current skill training for 5 days to get a long term payoff? If you can answer yes to both of those you want to train learning to level 5. If the answer is no to either of those, then don't. The approx training and payout times for each level of the Learning skill are: Lvl 0->1 = 12 minutes x 50 = 10 hours Lvl 1->2 = 55 minutes x 51 = 2 days Lvl 2->3 = 5 hours x 52 = 10 days Lvl 3->4 = 1 day x 53 = 53 days Lvl 4->5 = 5 days x 54 = 270 days
Zoxia Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2006.11.04 04:17:00 - [23] Edited by: Zoxia on 04/11/2006 04:17:18 considering it would take me 6 days and 12 hours to train it yeah id say its definately a back burner skill.
Estel Arador Minmatar AFK	Posted - 2006.11.04 09:52:00 - [24] Originally by: Zoxia Edited by: Zoxia on 04/11/2006 04:17:18 considering it would take me 6 days and 12 hours to train it yeah id say its definately a back burner skill. Which brings us to your "max Per & Wil on char creation" theory
Pottsey Gallente Acme Shipping Inc	Posted - 2006.11.04 09:57:00 - [25] Edited by: Pottsey on 04/11/2006 10:04:18 ôSo the two questions you need to ask yourself are: ò Will I be playing for 275 days? ò Do I want to delay my current skill training for 5 days to get a long term payoff?!ö Should be 3 questions. How many new skills are going to come out or skills I cannot afford right now that I will get after having learning lvl 5. ôIf you can answer yes to both of those you want to train learning to level 5. If the answer is no to either of those, then don't.ö ThatÆs wrong you can play for less then 275days for it to be useful. For example I have adv Charisma lvl 4 and it takes 25days to learn Skirmish Warfare Specialist but if I have adv Charisma lvl 5 it takes 24 days. That means after 24 days learning charisma adv5 has paid it self back as I am already starting a new skill while if I was on adv4 I would still be training Skirmish Warfare Specialist. I couldnÆt learn Skirmish Warfare Specialist instead getting adv Charisma lvl 5 as it wasnÆt out. So with adv5 I have more total and more useful skillpoints on day 24. Passive shield tanking guide click here
Zoxia Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2006.11.04 15:22:00 - [26] Originally by: Estel Arador Originally by: Zoxia Edited by: Zoxia on 04/11/2006 04:17:18 considering it would take me 6 days and 12 hours to train it yeah id say its definately a back burner skill. Which brings us to your "max Per & Wil on char creation" theory I dont need it ;) starting stats were 7/13/8/7/4 notice the 8 in charisma. 53 days later 15/21/15/15/15 balanced out abit. I learn most of the skills i need at a descent speed. All the gunnery, ships, missles skills fast. the only skill really i am not balanced on is memory and seeing as how its learnings basically once I get to my 4's i am done. The drone easily work with the extreme perc character. For a fighter it works and its not a theroy at all. I will get into higher up ships faster than most and I like that I will also be able to shoot bigger guns and missles quicker too I like that also. ;) In the end when the other skills are to 4-5 range I will have alot of perc/will and will/perc skills to mess with that have extremely high rankings. Again what was all that memory for?? seeing as how its mostly a secondary at best later.
Pottsey Gallente Acme Shipping Inc	Posted - 2006.11.04 15:41:00 - [27] Edited by: Pottsey on 04/11/2006 15:44:39 ôthe only skill really i am not balanced on is memory and seeing as how its learnings basically once I get to my 4's i am done.ö Well until rigs and all the other new stuff comes out that useÆs memory at which point youÆre at a disadvantage. Nice to see you have decent Charisma though. "Again what was all that memory for?? seeing as how its mostly a secondary at best later." As I have been saying for a while CCP have a habit of changeing skills and bringing out new skills. Rigs spring to mind as a good reason to have good memory. Unless your 100% sure CCP will never bring out new skills you need based on memory its always good to have a decent amount. Though in your case being missiles I can see why its low and I agree. I try and arm to have the lowest attribute at 20 with implants. Passive shield tanking guide click here
The Fates Cereal Killerz Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.11.05 01:43:00 - [28] ""I saw theres a pay off for 4-5 pay off learning skillaround 240-400 days. what about 2-3, 3-4? it just seems like of all the learning skills this one has the LONGEST payoff times for the least benefit. would 3-4 have a 120-200 day pay off time??"" Pay off time is going to be determined by your starting attributes and what you are training during that time. This explains the variance between 240 and 400 days for "payoff". Would III -> IV have a 120 day to 200 day payoff time? Depends on your attributes and what you are training. For example, if with an attribute pair you have 10 primary and 8 secondary, for 14 sp per minute, and add 2% to that, you get 14.28 sp per minute. If you have 8 primary and 6 secondary, for 11 sp per minute, then you get 11.22 sp per minute. In one case you gained .28 sp per minute, in the other, .22 sp per minute. It depends. Over that length of time you will train different things with different attribute pairs. The real kick here is that this only explains it in terms of getting your skill points back, not in time saved. They are different payoffs, one that I'm currently exploring in the sticky thread on skill calculations. ""I am already starting to regret training it to level 4. Perhaps it would be better to wait until later to learn this skill at all?? when your attributes are higher and you can learn it faster and have a better pay off time ratio?"" Your intuition is serving you well here. The higher your attributes the more the 2% provides. If you read the sticky threads there is an optimal pattern to train learning skills there. ""IS the 240 day payoff with MAX attributes?"" Good question that I can't answer, but I'd guess its with your attributes very high. The higher they are, the more the 2% bonus provides, and the shorter the payoff time will be. Again look for the optimal learning skill sequence in the sticky. Hi Pottsey. Good to see you are still on the train of getting people to understand the benefits of the advanced learning skills being maxed out when your character is much older. Pottsey does have a point, in that if your learning skills are maxed out, you learn faster in new skills than someone who doesn't have them maxed out. Of course Pottsey is only right about that if your base attributes are the same. It's also possible that the other person has higher base attributes, and less learning, and trains the skill faster than you anyway. Pottsey you are invited to look at the method for time payoff on advanced learning skills i have posted in the calculations sticky earlier to comment there if you can find any errors in that method.
Malena Perpetual Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.06 19:19:00 - [29] God, the countless number of threads on this subject... here is the reason I took all my learning skills (advanced as well) to 5: I wanted to know that I was learning the skill, no matter which one it was, at the fastest possible rate from the moment I right clicked and highlighted "train skill". No wondering if I would have been able to get in the ship two days sooner or use the tech 2 version 5 hours earlier (would the tech 2 version of such and such have saved my ship?!?) I knew that that was the fastest, barring a vast fortune on implants. I wasn't worried about how long to "pay it off" (but I had the benefit of knowing I would be in EVE for a long time) and I wasn't worried which skills I wanted to train the fastest. I made a slight error at creation giving mysyelf too much charisma because I thought it would help with market transactions and save money there, but no biggie, it can't be perfect.
Zoxia Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2006.11.06 19:25:00 - [30] Originally by: Malena God, the countless number of threads on this subject... here is the reason I took all my learning skills (advanced as well) to 5: I wanted to know that I was learning the skill, no matter which one it was, at the fastest possible rate from the moment I right clicked and highlighted "train skill". No wondering if I would have been able to get in the ship two days sooner or use the tech 2 version 5 hours earlier (would the tech 2 version of such and such have saved my ship?!?) I knew that that was the fastest, barring a vast fortune on implants. I wasn't worried about how long to "pay it off" (but I had the benefit of knowing I would be in EVE for a long time) and I wasn't worried which skills I wanted to train the fastest. I made a slight error at creation giving mysyelf too much charisma because I thought it would help with market transactions and save money there, but no biggie, it can't be perfect. :) thats great but its still 4 years ;)
Malena Perpetual Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.07 16:32:00 - [31] and I have had my learning skills maxxed for all of that time. Maxxed the first 6 when they were the only ones available, and then maxxed out the advanced 5 as soon as they came out. And that was at least 18 months ago I am pretty sure. But like I said, I have the advantage of knowing that I will be in EVE for a long time. But while others are hemming and hawing and debating about it, I have done it, and have started earning the time back, if that is how I choose to look at it.
Pottsey Gallente Acme Shipping Inc	Posted - 2006.11.07 18:29:00 - [32] ô:) thats great but its still 4 years ;)ö So what if its 4 years itÆs a mostly meaningless number and doesnÆt describe the value of learning skills. Adv5 learning can be worth it in a matter of months you donÆt need to wait 4 years before itÆs worth it. Forget about payback it doesnÆt matter as all skills are not the same vaule and payback doesnt take into account factors that matter. Passive shield tanking guide click here
Zoxia Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2006.11.07 19:22:00 - [33] Hey I can stand on the street corner and flial my arms about shouting to the heavens that my adv 5's and learning 5's were worth it it doesnt change the simple fact to pay them back its going to take 4 years. sure its great to say you can learn faster than some one who doesnt have the same attributes as you. but your not learning faster than some one with 4's and higher attributes. those level 5's do not magically make you alot better they make you a fraction better for the time invested thats why it takes 4 years to pay them off. Limit Book Marks HERE!!!
Carnye Dubro Caldari Shock and Awe	Posted - 2006.11.07 22:31:00 - [34] Originally by: Pottsey Edited by: Pottsey on 02/11/2006 13:21:13 I donÆt recall the precise number but a player with max learning learns 2.5x faster then the player without learning. Gee Pottsey... that multiplier seems to follow you around... and it isn't even at 30%... :)
Pottsey Gallente Acme Shipping Inc	Posted - 2006.11.08 11:03:00 - [35] ôsure its great to say you can learn faster than some one who doesnt have the same attributes as you. but your not learning faster than some one with 4's and higher attributes.ö Yet again youÆre going on about something that doesnÆt matter. When working out if learning skills are worth while you working-out if youÆre better off with adv4 or adv5 with your attributes. It doesnÆt matter about someone elseÆs attributes, as they are not training your skills for you. What matters is after working out your starting attributes are you better off with or without adv5 learning skills. ôthose level 5's do not magically make you alot better they make you a fraction better for the time invested thats why it takes 4 years to pay them off.ö A fraction better is still better and it doesnÆt take 4 years to pay off if you define payoff as the point when you better off from having adv 5 over adv4. Then it can be less then a year sometimes as little as 30days. When talking about leaning skills and how worth while they are, payoff as you use it does not matter. All the matters is are you better off with or without adv5. Passive shield tanking guide click here
Zoxia Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2006.11.08 18:52:00 - [36] See this type of thinking is abit flawed based on the fact you must spend X amount of time before you complete the Advanced 5's. Which btw takes longer than 1 month i believe. After that time you are behind anyone else X amount of skill point until you gain them back theres no magic potions or feeling that makes this simple fact dissappear. This is why the notion that you can pay them off in a month or year is fualty. Your percpetion is that your better off and thats about it. Why not just admit you going to have to invest 4 years to get the SP back instead of trying to paint this over with some feel good reasoning for the REAL pay back. The REAL pay back is 4 years period irregardless of your own good feeling of learning faster. Limit Book Marks HERE!!!
Pottsey Gallente Acme Shipping Inc	Posted - 2006.11.08 20:27:00 - [37] ôThe REAL pay back is 4 years period irregardless of your own good feeling of learning faster.ö If I had adv4 leadership it would take 262 days to get 12.8 million skillpoints in leadership With adv5 it would only take 250 days to get 12.8 million skillpoints That means at 251 days I am ahead so learning adv5 has paid its self back. 250days is no where near 4 years. Your theory is only correct if you never learn new skills. This is based on how it was when leadership came out. The same thing is going happen again next month with the new skills. ôAfter that time you are behind anyone else X amount of skill point until you gain them back theres no magic potions or feeling that makes this simple fact dissappear.ö No I am not behind why can you not understand that. If I did what you said and stayed with adv4 I would have millions less useful skillpoints then I have now. ThatÆs a fact that you like to ignore. You have yet to explain how having millions more useful skills points due to adv5 is classed as being behind over haveing adv4. I am not behind in X amount of usefull skill points due to adb5 but I am ahead in usefull and totel skillpoints. ôThis is why the notion that you can pay them off in a month or year is fualty.ö Its not faulty I use a different definition of payback to you. I take into account the value of skills while you class all skills as the same value which is wrong. ôWhy not just admit you going to have to invest 4 years to get the SP back insteadö & ôSee this type of thinking is abit flawed based on the fact you must spend X amount of time before you complete the Advanced 5's.ö ItÆs your idea thatÆs flawed. Yes it does take X amount of time before you complete the Advanced 5's. The problem is you assume all skills can be trained instead of adv5 during the time spent on adv5. ThatÆs wrong and that why your payback is wrong. If you factor in the skills you cannot train during or before you get adv5 then payback changeÆs a lot and is short like I say. I admit that it can take 4 years or what ever the number is to get the SP back for old skills. But thatÆs only for some skills not all skills. If you cannot train skill xxx before getting adv5 then payback is not 4 years as you cannot spend the time spent on adv5 learning skill xxx instead. So with adv5 you end up learning the skill faster then if you had adv4. So yes I agree you idea is right for old skills but old skills only. My problem is your going around saying payback is in the years as though there is only 1 form of payback. This is leading people to think learning skills are worse then they are. There are two forms of payback. You have to work both out to workout if adv5 is worth it for you or not. Passive shield tanking guide click here
Zoxia Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2006.11.09 03:00:00 - [38] SHOW me and everyone else on paper where you save your SP youve invested. From talking with you all ive come to realize is that you are in denial. end of story :) good luck paying off your SP. Limit Book Marks HERE!!!
Carnye Dubro Caldari Shock and Awe	Posted - 2006.11.09 06:33:00 - [39] I think the issue here is in the differing points of reference. Zoxia is speaking in terms of a beginning character, training up to Adv Lvl 5. The time spent learning that last level could well be time spent learning another skill. The payback comes from the extra learning that the last level gives you and takes X number of years to recoup. Pottsey already has all of the skills she wants to have... so why not train the learning skills to lvl 5? Then, When a skill comes out that she wants to learn she learns it faster. There is no issue with her spending the time to learn the Adv learning skills... she has all of the skills to make her the uber toon that she is already. Those SP put into the lvl 5s is just like saving for a rainy day (or a new skill she wants to train being released). For a beginning character, lvl 5 adv learning will take a long time to realize the benefits vs learning another skill. For a veteran character, with an already completely developed template, it makes sense to train that last level... after all... what were you going to train anyway? Something that has no benefit to the way you play your character or something that will help you skill up in the future?
Pottsey Gallente Acme Shipping Inc	Posted - 2006.11.09 07:23:00 - [40] ôSHOW me and everyone else on paper where you save your SP youve invested. From talking with you all ive come to realize is that you are in denial. end of story :) good luck paying off your SP.ö I have shown you the numbers even my last post had them. You keep ignoring the numbers and you go and call me in denial. This is a simplified version of what happened to me I trained everything I needed maxed out all my professions which is easy for most professions. I then learnt adv5 then new profession and skills came out and I started to learn those. I could not learn the skills instead of adv5. After 250 days you get 12.8 million skillpoints and leant all the leadership profession with adv5. After 256 days you get 12.5million skillpoints and still have more to go with adv4 So not only do you end up 6 days ahead but even though adv4 had extra days is still 300k skillpoints behind. So adv5 saved me useful SP as I have more useful skill points in a shorter time. Basically after 250days I am 12 days better off then if I had adv4. If I am better off how can I not have hit payback? You make it sound like I am worse off with your wrong version of payback. Being 12 days ahead due to adv5 is an advantage. Not only that but I went on to spend another 6+ months training more new skills so I pulled further and further ahead with adv5. I am more then 30days+ ahead of where I would be if I had adv4. I see Carnye Dubro understand what I am on about. Passive shield tanking guide click here
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2006.11.09 09:42:00 - [41] For ANY character that ALREADY has everything they NEED in their CURRENT profession at the DESIRED levels, there is no question: you absolutely HAVE to maximize all learning skills, in light of the fact that in the future, some skills will be released that you could use in your current "line of work". In other words, the discution is futile for such a character, as it would be stupid NOT to maximize learning. Now, if you want to diversify, or if your character is far from "perfect" in your chosen niche, the story is completely different. Not only different, but also heavily dependant on starting attributes, access to implants, and desired "final skillset"... yes, there is such a thing as "final skillset", where all RELEVANT skills you want are L5 already. Heck, the "final skillset" might even include some L4s or even L3s for all I care (say, for alts, as an example). Learning L1 : boosts attributes by 2%, takes X to train (dependant on mem/int) So, with L1, you gain SPs at 1.02 in any category. Say you need Y time WITHOUT L1 learning. Payoff would be if your end-total time Z (X + Y/1.02) would be equal to Y. x + y/1.02 = y ; x = y - y/1.02 ; x = y (1.02-1/1.02) ; y = x 1.02/0.02 ; y = x51 So, in other words, if your EXPECTED time to train Learning L1 is 51 times (or more) LOWER as total time to train all desired attributes, better train learning L1. In "another" other words, payoff time is 51 times time to train L1. Same rules apply to L1-to-L2, or L0-to-L2 or just about any LX-to-LY scenario. For L4-to-L5, you get only a 1.10/1.08 = 1.85(185)% increase, in other words 1.0185185.../0.0185185, or more precisely a 55 factor. So, when training FROM L4 to L5, the "payoff" is after you spend 55 times more (uh) time training OTHER skills compared to how long it took you to take L4 to L5. BUT... if you compare L0-to-L5 training time, you get a ROUGH total of 1.1/0.1 = 9.09 times total time spent training the sum (even less because learning will influence, err... learning speed of learning istelf, **** terms). Bottom line, training leaning from L0 to L5 will pay off in about 9 times the time it took you to LEARN L5 from L0. It might sound counter-intuitive (how could each individual time pay off in 51 to 55 time needed to train but the whole in just about 9 time ore even LESS compared to sum of all trainings), but you just CAN'T argue with math. So, you spent 20 days training learning from L0 to L5 ? With no other skills being trained, you "pay it off" in about 180 days. Yup. Now, the probelm is training OTHER learning skills is more practical as just, err, "learning learning". And that goes double for those attributes that boost the lowest attribute you will use in training. I mean, "iron will" is much better (percentage-wise) for low-willpower characters, but much less useful (again percentage-wise) for high-willpower characters. In SP-per-hour, sure, it's a flat increase. But in training time ratios, it's not. ___ Now, on to "advanced" attributes. Pick one of them ,assume you have L4, see how much time does it take to pay off to train L5. This one is more complicated, as it includes not only the attribute itself, but also WHAT skills will you train WITH it, the level of the "learning" skill (+1 vs +1.1 is a big difference), and the exact base value of the skill plus implant plugged in, AND even value of the SECONDARY attribute (yes, that pays a good deal of importance). Best percentage-increase scenario would be 3 base main attribute and no implants, while worst-case scenario would be 17 base main attribute and +5 implants. And then you have to factor in secondary skills used in training whatever it is you want to train. Yup, again, learning benefits (percentage-wise) the "bad attributes" much more as "good attributes". 3 base main and no attributes with L4 vs L5 advanced learning PLUS L5 learning is simply the difference between 12 (or max 13.2 w/LearningL5) and 13 (14.3) _____ -sig- This is my only char. These are my skills Always question everything, including yourself*
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2006.11.09 09:54:00 - [42] Edited by: Akita T on 09/11/2006 10:14:41 max char limit reached ___ So, you have 12 vs 13 (or 13.2 vs 14.3), that's a 8.3(3)% increase. Payoff WOULD be 13 training time, if the training time of "target" skill would only depend on this attribute. As it doesn't, it really depends on how high the secondary attribute is. Best "payoff" case scenario is for lowest other attribute (in this case, for a minimum of 6 in secondary, which is nearly impossible to encounter in real-gameplay). Anyway, you get the idea. For the "worst case" payoff, you have 17+5+9 = 31 previous attribute value influencing a skill as secondary attribute instead of main attribute (willpower on an amarr/amarr/religion with +3 custom W choice). The difference between 32 and 31 (or 35.2 and 34.1 with learning L5) would be a mere 3.22%, and influence only secondarily skill training, in other words approximately 64 payoff time or worse. So if it takes you 5 days to train, payoff in ship command would be 320 days or (much) more later. ___ Bottom line, the ONLY skill you can discuss about CLEAR benefit increases and payoff times is the LEARNING skill, and even that payoff is BASED on how long it takes to train in the first place. Taking it (learning) : From L0 to L5 in about 11 time From L0 to L4 in about 13.5 time [...] From L0 to L1 in about 51 time [...] From L4 to L5 in about 55 time Where "time" is "total time to train". ___ WORST case scenario is starter attributes of 4 int 4 mem (brutor slave/tribal), best case scenario is 8+2=10(+15=25) int and 11+3=14(+15=29) mem (intaki reborn). Worst case scenario, no attributes boosted, L4 to L5 takes about 22 days and a half, payoff in about 1240 days. Best case scenario, no attributes boosted, L4 to L5 takes about 7 days and 2 hours, payoff in 390 days. Worst case scenario, all attributes maxboosted and +5 implants, L4 to L5 takes about 4 days and 18 hours, payoff in about 260 days. Best case scenario, all attributes maxboosted and +5 implants, L4 to L5 takes about 3 days and 6 hours, payoff in about 179 days. _____ -sig- This is my only char. These are my skills Always question everything, including yourself
Gariuys Evil Strangers Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.09 10:49:00 - [43] Originally by: Zoxia Originally by: Malena God, the countless number of threads on this subject... here is the reason I took all my learning skills (advanced as well) to 5: I wanted to know that I was learning the skill, no matter which one it was, at the fastest possible rate from the moment I right clicked and highlighted "train skill". No wondering if I would have been able to get in the ship two days sooner or use the tech 2 version 5 hours earlier (would the tech 2 version of such and such have saved my ship?!?) I knew that that was the fastest, barring a vast fortune on implants. I wasn't worried about how long to "pay it off" (but I had the benefit of knowing I would be in EVE for a long time) and I wasn't worried which skills I wanted to train the fastest. I made a slight error at creation giving mysyelf too much charisma because I thought it would help with market transactions and save money there, but no biggie, it can't be perfect. :) thats great but its still 4 years ;) so? Already been here 3 years, and have every intend of staying for another 3. So no problems there. WANNA WHINE??? VISIT ME
Zoxia Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2006.11.09 15:57:00 - [44] Ok great you plan on being in the game for a long time and you have no more skills you need to raise so you raise those to have better rate of learning. I dont see that happening for many templates. what year were the ADV LEARNING skills released btw. since someone said theyve been here 3 years already. Limit Book Marks HERE!!!
Pottsey Gallente Acme Shipping Inc	Posted - 2006.11.09 18:58:00 - [45] ôOk great you plan on being in the game for a long time and you have no more skills you need to raise so you raise those to have better rate of learning.ö ThatÆs not the only time adv5 skills are a benefit. I see you still managed to ignore my numbers that you keep asking me to post as well. Learning skills came out what 8 months into the game with the first addon pack I think. Long time ago so could be wrong. Passive shield tanking guide click here

Pages: 1 2 :: [one page]

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.