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Zoxia
Gallente
University of Caille
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Posted - 2006.11.02 15:49:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Zoxia on 02/11/2006 15:58:53
After many hours studying these skills forums and reading through various thoughts and Ideas about "Learning" It seem to me that you are much better off choosing the right attributes at creation for the type of character you want to be and further more to specialize that type of charcter.
I understand that in some views a balanced approach seems to be the best, but in truth I think your gimping yourself for the game by being a jack of all trades.
Here are a couple of program/sites that let you pre create your character prior to actually making one in game.
http://www.dabomb.dk/eve/EveStartChar/
http://www.wium.net/nw/evetool/
I am going to make a list here using just the basic starting stats w/ancestory. (none of the 5 personal added stats) the top 4 or so will be listed for each attribute as well as there starting attributes. ( INT/PERC/CHAR/WILL/MEM )
INTELLIGENCE:
Caldari/Achura/Inventors: 12 (12/7/3/6/6)
Minmatar/Sebiestor/Tinkerers: 11 (11/5/6/6/6)
Caldari/Deteis/Scientists: 10 (10/6/6/5/7)
Minmatar/Vherokior/Drifters: 9 (9/6/8/3/8)
PERCEPTION:
Amarr/Khanid/CyberKnights: 11 (6/11/5/8/4)
Minmatar/Brutor/SlaveChild: 11 (4/11/6/9/4)
Gallente/Gallente/Immigrants: 10 (6/10/8/6/4)
Amarr/Ni-Kunni/BorderRunners: 10 (6/10/8/4/6)
MEMORY:
Minmatar/Vherokior/Retailers: 11 (7/4/9/4/11)
Gallente/Intaki/Reborn: 11 (8/3/6/6/11)
Caldari/Deteis/Merchandisers: 11 (7/5/6/5/11)
Amarr/Amarr/WealthyCommoners: 9 (7/4/4/9/10)
Caldari/Achura/Stargazers: 9 (8/8/3/6/9)
WILLPOWER:
Amarr/Amarr/ReligiousReclaimers: 14 (7/4/3/14/6)
Amarr/Amarr/LiberalHolders: 11 (7/4/6/11/6)
Amarr/Amarr/Zealots: 10 (5/8/5/10/6)
Caldari/Civire/Mercs: 10 (5/9/6/10/4)
Minmatar/Brutor/TribalTradition: 10 (4/9/7/10/4)
Gallente/Jin-Mei/SangDoCaste: 10 (5/6/8/10/5)
CHARISMA:
Gallente/Gallente/Activists: 12 (6/8/12/4/4)
Amarr/Ni-Kunni/Free Merchants: 12 (5/7/12/4/6)
Gallente/Intaki/Diplomats: 10 (8/3/10/6/7)
Minmatar/Sebiestor/Traders: 10 (7/5/10/6/6)
You would then add your 5 points where you wanted to improve your character.
I will be adding a top 5 Basic atts list next.............
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RaTTuS
BIG
R i s e
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Posted - 2006.11.02 15:58:00 -
[2]
The Coldfront One
Andother good one
Put proper links in please.
--
BIG Lottery, BIG Deal | RaTTuS @ Skills Showroom
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Zoxia
Gallente
University of Caille
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Posted - 2006.11.02 16:00:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: RaTTuS
The Coldfront One
Andother good one
Put proper links in please.
just did ;)
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Pottsey
Gallente
Acme Shipping Inc
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Posted - 2006.11.02 16:01:00 -
[4]
As I put in your other tread
For most people that works off as bad in the long term. Unless your some industrial character that never undocks chanceÆs are you need a good mix of all attributes. Only a small amount of characterÆs are better off in a few high attributes and a few low.
What happens is you train all you need in those two high attributes then you swap to low attributes based skills so you start off faster but then slow down a lot. Most professions donÆt relay on just 2 attributes. Balanced attributes are better as well because you can change jobs easier. I used to be a miner now mostly do leadership things my skills changed from being memory based to charisma based. Having balanced attributes means I can change jobs easy. I maxed out mining about a year ago so if I took just mining based attributes I would be left with a big problem as I would have learnt mining skills faster then be left learning everything else real slow.
As most people donÆt need 2 attributes its best to take a balance of them all. Its nearly always bad to min/max attributes. Its best to take a balance with a few a tiny bit higher then the rest.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
RaTTuS
BIG
R i s e
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Posted - 2006.11.02 16:01:00 -
[5]
\o/
makes it easier for the lazy people.
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BIG Lottery, BIG Deal | RaTTuS @ Skills Showroom
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Zoxia
Gallente
University of Caille
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Posted - 2006.11.02 16:09:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Pottsey
As I put in your other tread
For most people that works off as bad in the long term. Unless your some industrial character that never undocks chanceÆs are you need a good mix of all attributes. Only a small amount of characterÆs are better off in a few high attributes and a few low.
What happens is you train all you need in those two high attributes then you swap to low attributes based skills so you start off faster but then slow down a lot. Most professions donÆt relay on just 2 attributes. Balanced attributes are better as well because you can change jobs easier. I used to be a miner now mostly do leadership things my skills changed from being memory based to charisma based. Having balanced attributes means I can change jobs easy. I maxed out mining about a year ago so if I took just mining based attributes I would be left with a big problem as I would have learnt mining skills faster then be left learning everything else real slow.
As most people donÆt need 2 attributes its best to take a balance of them all. Its nearly always bad to min/max attributes. Its best to take a balance with a few a tiny bit higher then the rest.
I disagree :) for the basic fact is once you learn the learnings upto adv 4 and slap in implants by specializing more in a choosen feild you will see faster learning times and aquire skills at a faster rate for that field than say your avg balanced 8/8/8/7/8/8 layout.
For instance lets take a fighter. I would most definately try to get as high of a PERC as possible to start with then will power, Int, Mem/char
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Estel Arador
Minmatar
AFK
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Posted - 2006.11.02 16:51:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Estel Arador on 02/11/2006 16:51:08
Originally by: Zoxia
I understand that in some views a balanced approach seems to be the best, but in truth I think your gimping yourself for the game by being a jack of all trades.
I agree that you can optimize your attributes if you know exactly what you'll be doing ingame.
The question is whether or not someone who is creating a character (and still needs advice) will know exactly:
(a) What attributes should be maxed; for example your assumption that a fighter should get perc and will as high as possible might be incorrect, considering the significant amount of electronics/engineering/drone skills that are needed to fight properly.
(b) Someone might want to change career along the way, or CCP might introduce new skills which are required for your profession but have different attributes (new leadership skills for example).
In the rare cases that someone does know exactly what (s)he needs, I think it'd be stupid to say "then max these two attributes". Instead, since you've taken the time to figure out what you want to do anyway, set up a skillplan and see exactly how many points you'll be training with each attribute and then get truly optimal attributes (all 5 of 'm)
On a sidenote, I disagree with your claim that you 'gimp yourself' if you're a jack of all trades. I have balanced attributes (20/20/18/19/19, which includes some limited and beta implants) and worse (if that is the right word to use) I train combat as well as mining and industry skills. I realise this is sub-optimal, but at least I'm having more fun than I would if I were doing just one thing.
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Futuri
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2006.11.02 17:02:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Zoxia
For instance lets take a fighter. I would most definately try to get as high of a PERC as possible to start with then will power, Int, Mem/char
something like 7/12/6/8/6 or even 7/13/5/9/5
A fighter does not need charisma (unless he's a mission runner), but int and memory are also important for EW/drones/engineering/mechanic.
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Zoxia
Gallente
University of Caille
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Posted - 2006.11.02 17:20:00 -
[9]
Lets take an extreme case in stats for a fighter based on the attributes in importance as follows - Perc, Will, Int, Mem & Char.
(8/14/5/8/4)
ok this is after i have added my 5 stats. here we have 14 perc but alas only 4 mem!! oh gee hes probably screwed his guy up right??
how?? Sure it will take him alittle longer to get the "LEARNING" skills but not that much longer.
by the time hes learned all of them to adv 4 only and slapped in +4 implants. which is +13
hes looking at base stats of 21/31/18/21/17 and lets say he gets the basic learning to level 4 thats 8% to those.
so all in all hed have 22.68/33.48/19.44/22.68/18.36
hell id take those stats right now if i was a fighterpilot.
And this is just with adv learning 4's and learning 4
and just think hes saved over 4 years paying back by not training those 5's I'd say its worked out pretty good.
sure hes not the best at learning mining or blueprints or manufactoring. But hes one fast SOB at learning those Fighting skills.
The same can be true for those who use the stats to their advantage for any field of training. You do not have to go to extremes to make this type of character either you can even the stats out alittle more of you so desire.
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Zoxia
Gallente
University of Caille
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Posted - 2006.11.02 17:23:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Zoxia on 02/11/2006 17:26:21
Sure he does gang skills require some charisma?? leadership?? I am sure a few others too.
How many skills after one year of playing really are needed that require memory?? for a fighter pilot?
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Pottsey's Clone
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Posted - 2006.11.02 18:57:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Pottsey''s Clone on 02/11/2006 19:06:20
Edited by: Pottsey''s Clone on 02/11/2006 19:05:43
ôA fighter does not need charisma (unless he's a mission runner), but int and memory are also important for EW/drones/engineering/mechanic.ö
I fighter can need charisma I Have over 10million in charisma skills that boost combat and defence. So some fighters need charisma.
ôI disagree :) for the basic fact is once you learn the learnings upto adv 4 and slap in implants by specializing more in a choosen field!öö
Well I am evidence that proves you wrong. I trained up Adv5 skills than gang assist came out and I learnt Gang assist and command ships faster then all the people who didnÆt have adv5.
Also what about all those people who followed similar advice to you and took low charisma and now wish they didnÆt take low min/max attribute due to leadership and command ships.
You never know what nice new skills are going to come out that you want or new professions. ThatÆs why you take balanced attributes. If your later post you say the best of the best well you need adv5 to be the best of the best as you get to learn those new skills faster then anyone else.
ôOh just wanted to you're right you arent really gimping by choosing the middle of the road path. But you are taking the long way to the end.ö
Your ways the long way not the jack of all trades. Your way starts off faster then slows down massively. As in my example I started off as a miner maxed those mining skills then swapped to a new profession with different attributes. If I did it your way I would have been stuck with maxed skills and high attributes that meant learning the new stuff would have takes ages.
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Futuri
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.02 20:07:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Zoxia
How many skills after one year of playing really are needed that require memory?? for a fighter pilot?
Drones, learning skills, plus all those engineering/electronics/mechanics skills that have mem secondary. If you make a reasonable 1 year plan for a fighter char in EVE mon, mem will not be that far behind in importance compared to int and perception.
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Zoxia
Gallente
University of Caille
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Posted - 2006.11.02 20:17:00 -
[13]
I still say perception, perception, then some willpower, then some intelligence, and then a smattering of memory and charisma. There are several scenerios with drones where you could add alittle more memory. but the extremely high perception offsets having lower memory abit.
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Estel Arador
Minmatar
AFK
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Posted - 2006.11.02 20:28:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Estel Arador on 02/11/2006 20:28:48
Originally by: Zoxia
ok this is after i have added my 5 stats. here we have 14 perc but alas only 4 mem!! oh gee hes probably screwed his guy up right??
how?? Sure it will take him alittle longer to get the "LEARNING" skills but not that much longer.
by the time hes learned all of them to adv 4 only and slapped in +4 implants. which is +13
hes looking at base stats of 21/31/18/21/17 and lets say he gets the basic learning to level 4 thats 8% to those.
It would take about 7 days longer than the attributes I have (base 8/9/6/8/8) , which means he'd need to do about 65 days of per/wil skills before he's got the same amount of SP.
Then there's the drones, electronics, engineering, and mechanic skills which are needed to fight properly. Every day spent training skills in those categories will have to be compensated by about a day of per/wil skills (taking the average). The character should not train any corporation management, industry, science, or social skills, else it will need even more compensation. (Note that training for capital ships will require you to train skills in some of those categories.)
All in all, the character may have a slight advantage fighting skills (spaceship command, gunnery and missiles) only after well over a year of playing, if he doesn't neglect his electronics/engineering/mechanic skills. In exchange for that advantage, he has limited his career options. That's a choice one could make, though it would not be my choice.
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Pottsey
Gallente
Acme Shipping Inc
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Posted - 2006.11.02 20:47:00 -
[15]
For me perfect attributes are (rounded down)
Intelligence 26
Perception 25
Charisma 25
Willpower 20
Memory 27
Though each to his own. I could see why others would want less Charisma and more willpower or various other options.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Zoxia
Gallente
University of Caille
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Posted - 2006.11.02 20:49:00 -
[16]
thats the beauty of this whole thing ;) you can be what you want too. being balanced gives you alittle of all those things. but an INT/MEM spec character would easily out learn run of the mill charcters for his profession.
let say i started with 11/3/6/6/13 gees what a crappy fighter but this guy do doing some serious science work.
again it all in what you want to end up with what you would like to be stronger at when your here for awhile.
I say its better to be better at something then to be ok at everything.
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Futuri
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.02 23:09:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Futuri on 02/11/2006 23:09:05
Originally by: Zoxia
Edited by: Zoxia on 02/11/2006 20:37:45
I still say perception, perception, then some willpower, then some intelligence, and then a smattering of memory and charisma. There are several scenerios with drones where you could add alittle more memory. but the extremely high perception offsets having lower memory abit. this is again for a fighter polit.
As far as you being the fastest i am glad you have what 32 charisma?? or 32 will power??
Willpower is the 4th worst attribute (5th is charisma :p), unless for some reason your fighter does not need any EW/drones/engineering skills at all :p
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Zoxia
Gallente
University of Caille
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Posted - 2006.11.03 02:50:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Zoxia on 03/11/2006 02:52:58
Originally by: Futuri
Edited by: Futuri on 02/11/2006 23:09:05
Originally by: Zoxia
Edited by: Zoxia on 02/11/2006 20:37:45
I still say perception, perception, then some willpower, then some intelligence, and then a smattering of memory and charisma. There are several scenerios with drones where you could add alittle more memory. but the extremely high perception offsets having lower memory abit. this is again for a fighter polit.
As far as you being the fastest i am glad you have what 32 charisma?? or 32 will power??
Willpower is the 4th worst attribute (5th is charisma :p), unless for some reason your fighter does not need any EW/drones/engineering skills at all :p
For a Fighter Pilot?? Memory ranks lower than WillPower and Intelligence. I would almost put it lower than Charisma If not for drones. Which is why having really high Perception is a PLUS because its the secondary for drones.
Go back to the example I used for extreme pilot stats.
22.68/29.16/19.44/22.68/18.36
( this is with learning adv level 4's and +4 implants.)
perc/will = 40.5 SP a minute
will/perc = 37.26 SP a minute
int/perc = 37.26 SP a minute
mem/perc = 32.94 SP a minute
int/mem = 31.86 SP a minute
Now lets take joe avg with the 120+ days
( 4 year pay back )level 5's and +5 implants - 25.3/25.3/24.2/25.3/25.3
avg 36.85-37.95
This is why for a fighter I say its much better to have high Perception then Willpower then Intelligence then Charisma/Memory. If i was to rank them 1-10.
Perception (10)
WillPower (7)
Intelligence(6)
Charisma(4)
Memory(4)
oh gees hes trashed memory again ;) I think the whole balanced character and learning skills thing is WAY over rated.
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Futuri
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.03 04:43:00 -
[19]
Which attributes are more important, depends on what skills you plan to train most. If you do not want to use drones or EW, but plan to train Titan V or all faction battleships to V then obviously perc/will will be more important than int/mem. That won't make a balanced fighter, though.
What you can do, is make a skill plan in EVEMon for a realistic timeframe (~1-2 years), then check how much adjusting attributes influences the training time. Unless the training plan is seriously skewed (titan v etc), you'll find that the importance of attributes goes perc=>int=>mem=>will=>cha.
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Pottsey
Gallente
Acme Shipping Inc
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Posted - 2006.11.03 09:35:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Pottsey on 03/11/2006 09:38:10
ôoh gees hes trashed memory again ;) I think the whole balanced character and learning skills thing is WAY over rated.ö
If you had been here a while you would realise why we have balanced characterÆs. So many skills attributes have been changed and so many skills added that pretty much all the people who took none specialised attribute characterÆs ended up far worse then the people with balanced characterÆs in the long term.
If I followed your advise when I made my characterÆs I would have a good 5 to 10million less skill points then I do now. Your way its limiting and bad in the long term. Your way is only good if you want to play for a short amount of time and quit in say 6 to 9 months.
My old CEO was just like you he didnÆt max learning skills with specialised attributes even though he started 5+ months before me I ended up with 5 to 10 ish million more skillpoints then him and I am still pulling ahead. All due to new skills & skill change's.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Sir Bart
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Posted - 2006.11.03 09:53:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Zoxia
For instance lets take a fighter. I would most definately try to get as high of a PERC as possible to start with then will power, Int, Mem/char
For a fighter, the correct order of skills is: Perc, Mem, Will, Int, Char.
LOTS of people get that mixed up.
This was determined by creating a combat character in EVEMon and then creating a skill plan that created a 1.5 yr old fighter and then playing with the attributes to see what gives the most improvements.
-Bart
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BIG Builder
BIG
R i s e
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Posted - 2006.11.03 11:21:00 -
[22]
Like I'm a special case as I'll only do a couple of things i.e. Build and Research -
you may see me in space - but very very rarely
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Born to build BIG |
Zoxia
Gallente
University of Caille
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Posted - 2006.11.03 11:30:00 -
[23]
heh. ok you go ahead and make that low willpower fighter pilot. not me ;)
btw how many higher ranking skills have a memory primary after a year or two? or even a memory secondary for that matter that you'll really need as a pilot??
Personally?? I dont agree with high memory but thats my view.
for a short term player sure jack that memory up there youll get your learnings and your drones faster. Ive just seen too many ships, guns, missles, and other skills with lots of Perc/Will or Will/Perc. Tech 2 ships?
btw what skills for a fighter are you jacking up that memory for besides learnings and drones? Just trying to get an idea of why you think memory for a Pilot is soo important?
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Pottsey
Gallente
Acme Shipping Inc
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Posted - 2006.11.03 12:05:00 -
[24]
ôFor a fighter, the correct order of skills is: Perc, Mem, Will, Int, Char.
LOTS of people get that mixed up.ö
Its not a matter of mixing it up its acase not all fighters are the same, different fighters use different combinations. My fighter will have 10m+ in Charisma skills by the time I am done that effect combat and due to being a drone pilot only 7mill in drones which are maxed and no more to train. Well I have a few skills I donÆt use like EW, mining and Sentry drones. Assuming someone MaxÆs only the drones they need they can be a drone fighter in under 7mill. So for me taking Perc, Mem, Will, Int, Char would be silly its clear Charisma needs to be higher up and perc lower. Same for other fighters some will need what you wrote others will need other combinations.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
The Fates
Cereal Killerz
Chimaera Pact
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Posted - 2006.11.05 02:08:00 -
[25]
The primary benefit to balancing your attributes is that there is a diminishing return on time saved as attributes rise.
The easiest way around that is to balance your attributes.
Excellent post by the OP, imo. I chose Caldari Achura, and then added in my points. Haven't regretted that choice yet.
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Sir Bart
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Posted - 2006.11.05 08:07:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Pottsey
ôFor a fighter, the correct order of skills is: Perc, Mem, Will, Int, Char.
LOTS of people get that mixed up.ö
Its not a matter of mixing it up its acase not all fighters are the same, different fighters use different combinations. My fighter will have 10m+ in Charisma skills by the time I am done that effect combat and due to being a drone pilot only 7mill in drones which are maxed and no more to train. Well I have a few skills I donÆt use like EW, mining and Sentry drones. Assuming someone MaxÆs only the drones they need they can be a drone fighter in under 7mill. So for me taking Perc, Mem, Will, Int, Char would be silly its clear Charisma needs to be higher up and perc lower. Same for other fighters some will need what you wrote others will need other combinations.
Well, I said fighter.. not pansy ass mission runner. 
I have not gotten into leadership skills or social skills. I think most people agree that charisma is the worst skill though. Also, perception is the best. I mean, how much SP do you have in spaceship command + gunnery + missiles? I'm guessing it dwarfs 10M.
-Bart
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Sir Bart
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Posted - 2006.11.05 08:16:00 -
[27]
Originally by: The Fates
The primary benefit to balancing your attributes is that there is a diminishing return on time saved as attributes rise.
The easiest way around that is to balance your attributes.
Diminishing returns eh? Like, since you have high perception, those skills already train quickly so you aren't spending much time on them while the skills that use charisma are training so slow you spend lots of time training them?
Basically, when picking your attributes, you want the average (weighted by time) of the SP/min formula to be highest.
So, if, in spite of your great perception, you're still spending more time working on perception based skills (since they are my favorite skills), 1 more perception is going to help you more than any other.
-Bart
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Pottsey
Gallente
Acme Shipping Inc
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Posted - 2006.11.05 10:46:00 -
[28]
ôWell, I said fighter.. not pansy ass mission runner. ö
I havenÆt ran a mission in 6 months in fact I donÆt even have a 5.0 standing even though I have been playing for years. Over 6 months ago I did do mission for a while before that I spent 6 months in Catch, might have been a bit longer ago then that it was during the big Fix/SA war. I also have a 2nd PvP only account.
ôI have not gotten into leadership skills or social skills. I think most people agree that charisma is the worst skill though.ö
Well there wrong in combat, well you donÆt need social but leadership make a large diffrance.
I provide a 22.5% boost to resistance, 22.5% faster repair/boost, 22.5% less repair cap needed, 10% faster targeting, 10% more shield hitpoints, 10% amour hitpoints, 10% faster speed, 10% to max velocity, another 5% hitpoint boosted based on the implant I use, among other things and still doing great damage with drones and Nos or other high slots. Most of that is from charisma and I donÆt think its a waste. My domi is for solo work when in gangs I fly an Eos and you need Charisma skills to fly that. Also if you fly the right Command ship the bonus get bigger then 22.5%.
What about all the new useful Charisma skills coming out? Surely you use other Charisma skills like Infomorph Psychology? Now I agree not everyone needs high Charisma but its worth while having 1 person per gang with high Charisma.
öAlso, perception is the best. I mean, how much SP do you have in spaceship command + gunnery + missiles? I'm guessing it dwarfsö
About 10mill but you skipped drones which bumps it up to 17.8mill.
Take a look your self http://www.big-sales.net/public/skills/character.php?charID=794687023
ItÆs a little out of date but gives you an idea. A lot of skills I no longer use like mining and cargo ships I spent the first 8months of the game doing that without even having cruisers but no more. Turrets and missiles are from back when I was experimenting to decide what weapon system to go for. As you can see I choose drones and drone ships. A few role-play skills in there as well that I had to get because of my background.
Still there is nothing wrong with a fighter focusing on drones and drone ships a level 5 Battleship skill with my drone skills is deadly in a Dominix. When you go that fighter path you donÆt need high perception like you would if you go for turrets or missile.
Back to perception you can see memory is actually use more then perception for my type of fighter build. Due to support skills you need and drones.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Zoxia
Gallente
University of Caille
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Posted - 2006.11.05 20:48:00 -
[29]
btw i wouldnt call your build a fighter per say but a drone specialist and gang support character. I agree drones are great though ;) they are worth there weight in zydrine at times.
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Pottsey
Gallente
Acme Shipping Inc
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Posted - 2006.11.05 21:43:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Pottsey on 05/11/2006 21:44:43
How much DPS do you have to do to be classed as a fighter? How do you determine is someone is a fighter or not?
It seems to me youÆre just lumping everyone with 1 weapon system as a fighter and everyone with another weapon system as not a fighter.
How is a drone specialist in a drone ship that different from a missile specialist in a missile ship? Surly both are fighters?
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
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