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Grey Area
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.03 17:33:00 -
[1]
...is that it's just not SUBTLE. There's no thinking time in combat. There's no strategy to a fleet battle...it's just "my big blob vs your big blob"...and gate camps? Pah. You might just as well play snap...it's all about who gets the lock first. Missions are no better. CCP's take on "how to make a mission harder" always comes down to the "brute force" option...More Ships! Bigger Ships! Hit them hard!
So...what to do about it?
1. The problem in fleet combat is that there is no difference between "encounter" and "engage". With a warp to distance of only 100km, and weapon ranges that exceed that in most cases, as soon as you see the enemy, you can lock them and fire. There is no potential for stand off, no jockeying for position. There is no one class of ship that can enter a combat at extremely long range and start firing into the fray...doing much reduced damage compared to closer weapons, but safe in the knowledge that it will not be taking damage in return, until the enemy ships close to it. Equally, ships with close range weapons should be both fast and tough...they know they are going to be taking damage on the way in, so they need either more HP or a better tank, plus high speed. In my opinion, the tank on a Raven should be far weaker than that of a Megathron...but the range of the Raven should be 200km compared to the Megathron's 20km. The Megathron should get less of a penalty for using an MWD...the Raven should NOT be the awful tug that it is now...it NEEDS agility to maintain that range...but the Megathron should always be able to close with it, and whilst it may arrive at close range in a damaged state, it should then be devastating in terms of firepower.
How you apply any of this to gatecamps is beyond me...the only solution I can think of is to allow ships to warp to each other from local. This would mean it would not be so necessary top camp a gate in the knowledge that people have to pass through it sooner or later. The ship being warped to should get a warning message of "Incoming Ship"...but would need skills and possibly moduels to be able to identify the number and type of inbound targets...but maybe an indicator of the direction of approach of the incoming ship...so that the "victim" had a chance to get to a more favourable range (be that close or long).
2. Missions are not designed to encourage or reward cooperation. There is NOTHING in a mission that required you to bring a friend. On some missions, HAVING a friend present causes the whole spawn to aggro. Even if you choose to bring a friend, the loyalty points and rewards are not shared. Missions need to be crafted to REQUIRE CO-Operation...why not have a gate with two switches that have to be held down...that IMMEDIATELY required three people...two to hold the switch, one to enter the gate...so that the switch holkders are not bored, they could be attacked after the third party enters the gate to recover whatever item is necessary. Not ALL missions would require this level of co-operation...but knowing that SOME of them MIGHT could encourage us antisocial level 4 solo-ers to form some partnerships. And where are the old, much dreaded "X-wing" type missions..."defend this (very fragile) ship until help arrives"? Why, on some of the courier missions, is the extremely valuable cargo never attacked (thus requiring an escort)?
These are just some of my thoughts. I'm disappointed that EVE seems to be dumbing down, but I have to lay equal blame with us, the player base. If someone has a ship that does something we cannot...we whine. CCP give in, and any TRUE differentiation between the ships is eroded. It is not that we are all flying the same ship, as some suggest, but we are all flying different ships that do the same thing.
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Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums;
Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?"
Cleese: "I've told you once." |
Flaming sambuka
Trinity Nova
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Posted - 2006.11.03 17:36:00 -
[2]
LOL  get a clue before posting rubbish.
Trinity Nova Mercenary Services |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.03 17:39:00 -
[3]
1. Crap ideas.
2. Yes, its needed.
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Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Dark Shikari
Caldari
Imperium Technologies
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.11.03 17:40:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Grey Area
...is that it's just not SUBTLE. There's no thinking time in combat. There's no strategy to a fleet battle...it's just "my big blob vs your big blob"
Then why does, for example, Band of Brothers nearly always win their engagements, even when outnumbered?
-[23] Member-
Awesome new space games site, from the editor of E-ON! |
Gindar
Dragonfire Intergalactic Crusaders of Krom
iPOD Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.03 17:44:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Flaming sambuka
LOL get a clue before posting rubbish.
before you instalock this guy's pod and do F1, F2, F3 etc...
he has a point. and your flame just exhasperates it, demonstrating the gankland mentality.
it all throws back to "my play style is different from your playstyle" paradox, often encountered by carebears in lowsec.
if you are tired of blob vs blob i do not blame you. if you whine about ewar perhaps you believe that blobs should be whoever can tank and gank the best?
eve has strategy tactics, however they are not quite as built in. strategy requires a lot of thought and planning. some people are afraid of this, and will call you a noob for wearing unconventional ship setups or non-cliche fleet tactics. especially if you tire of typical blob vs blob playstyle, i encourage you reading this to take a few steps back and look at the big picture of pvp. think about tactics to make an unconventional victory.b
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mishkof
Caldari
Emerald Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.03 17:47:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Then why does, for example, Band of Brothers nearly always win their engagements, even when outnumbered?
slurpy slurp
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Moghydin
Confederation of Red Moon
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.03 17:57:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Moghydin on 03/11/2006 18:01:56
1) you clearly don't have a clue about fleet warfare
2) yes, missions are one of the most boring activities in the game
p.s. it's sad to see Dark Shikari praising his suzerains on every occasions lately. I used to enjoy his posts :(
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.03 18:03:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Moghydin
p.s. it's sad to see Dark Shikari praising his suzerains on every occasions lately. I used to enjoy his posts :(
I suspect he has gone gallente too... the dark force is strong in him these days. 
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Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Dark Shikari
Caldari
Imperium Technologies
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.11.03 18:11:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 03/11/2006 18:18:50
Originally by: Moghydin
p.s. it's sad to see Dark Shikari praising his suzerains on every occasions lately. I used to enjoy his posts :(
I'm not. Its a fact that some alliances do better in fleet ops than others. If I had said "RA" or "D2" or "LV," nobody would have said anything, but since I said "BoB" everyone gets their panties in a bunch. Come on, they're just an alliance who knows how to fight. They're not remotely the only ones.
Band of Brothers is notorious as some of the best. Red Alliance also has notoriously good fleets, regardless of how much people flame them about their rather lame tactics. I use BoB because they are a classic, well-known example, but if you've seen the RAT video against ASCN (battle of E3 or whatever it was called), you'd know there are many other alliances that have good, disciplined fleets.
You, of all people, should know how good a Band of Brothers fleet is. If you really have not encountered a BoB fleet, you should leave ASCN now, because that would mean you haven't fought for your alliance and are being totally useless. I have heard ASCN leadership complaining about 25% and lower turnout for fleet ops: perhaps you are one of the 75%.
-[23] Member-
Awesome new space games site, from the editor of E-ON! |
Suze'Rain
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Posted - 2006.11.03 18:22:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Moghydin
p.s. it's sad to see Dark Shikari praising his suzerains on every occasions lately. I used to enjoy his posts :(
hey, if DS wants to praise me, it's his own private business.....
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Dark Shikari
Caldari
Imperium Technologies
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.11.03 18:25:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Suze'Rain
Originally by: Moghydin
p.s. it's sad to see Dark Shikari praising his suzerains on every occasions lately. I used to enjoy his posts :(
hey, if DS wants to praise me, it's his own private business.....
LMFAO... you just made my day 
-[23] Member-
Awesome new space games site, from the editor of E-ON! |
Scoundrelus
Finite Horizon
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Posted - 2006.11.03 18:26:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Grey Area
...is that it's just not SUBTLE. There's no thinking time in combat. There's no strategy to a fleet battle...it's just "my big blob vs your big blob"
Then why does, for example, Band of Brothers nearly always win their engagements, even when outnumbered?
h4x.
===============================================
We are Watching You. |
Wendat Huron
Lupus Industries
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Posted - 2006.11.03 18:32:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Grey Area
...is that it's just not SUBTLE. There's no thinking time in combat. There's no strategy to a fleet battle...it's just "my big blob vs your big blob"
Then why does, for example, Band of Brothers nearly always win their engagements, even when outnumbered?
More veterans per square feet?
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Moghydin
Confederation of Red Moon
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.03 18:35:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
I have heard ASCN leadership complaining about 25% and lower turnout for fleet ops: perhaps you are one of the 75%.
Yes, and my kill/loss mails on BoB kb are faked then
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Dark Shikari
Caldari
Imperium Technologies
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.11.03 18:36:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Moghydin
Originally by: Dark Shikari
I have heard ASCN leadership complaining about 25% and lower turnout for fleet ops: perhaps you are one of the 75%.
Yes, and my kill/loss mails on BoB kb are faked then
Well then I guess you aren't one of the 75%  Originally by: Scoundrelus
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Grey Area
...is that it's just not SUBTLE. There's no thinking time in combat. There's no strategy to a fleet battle...it's just "my big blob vs your big blob"
Then why does, for example, Band of Brothers nearly always win their engagements, even when outnumbered?
h4x.
I think its their SuperLagMachine v3.6.
-[23] Member-
Awesome new space games site, from the editor of E-ON! |
Imation Sturm
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Posted - 2006.11.03 19:02:00 -
[16]
The only way to make combat more complex is to add subsystems. Make it so you can attack weapons, engines, control or what ever. This would mean that you would also have to make ships much harder to actually destroy.
Basically you would fight till one side couldn't fight anymore, but not destroyed. Then you send over the Marines and take control of the ship, or just strip it for parts and leave the hulk in space.
This would add an immense amount of game play and could extend battles for quite a while. Though coding this is going to be akin to a new game in itself.
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Mah Kraah
Minmatar
Masuat'aa Matari
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2006.11.03 19:21:00 -
[17]
10 seconds after the marines are on board the pilot ejects and activate the selfdestruction, there goes ur marines and ur bounty.....
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Rod Blaine
Evolution
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.03 19:24:00 -
[18]
Quote:
...is that it's just not SUBTLE. There's no thinking time in combat. There's no strategy to a fleet battle...it's just "my big blob vs your big blob"...and gate camps? Pah. You might just as well play snap...it's all about who gets the lock first.
This is were you went wrong tbh. But I don't mind that, just don't give up on bringing some of the strategy you'd like to see into the combat you experience. It actually works you know, just gotta find the stuff that makes it.
Didn't read the rest yet. I will, and if it prompts an additional insight I'll make sure to share it wih you
Old blog |
Ral YoungBeard
Minmatar
Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2006.11.03 19:32:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Ral YoungBeard on 03/11/2006 19:34:40
Originally by: Grey Area
...is that it's just not SUBTLE. There's no thinking time in combat. There's no strategy to a fleet battle...it's just "my big blob vs your big blob"...and gate camps? Pah. You might just as well play snap...it's all about who gets the lock first.
Pah. This is completely wrong. Counterexample: Last night. AGONY gang of 2 cruisers, 1 AF, 1 inty, and 3 destroyers encounters enemy gatecamp with 2 battleships, a battlecruiser, and 2 cruisers + a small bubble. We kill the bubble, two thoraxes, and a tempest and send a raven and cyclone to lowsec with tails between legs. How did we win? Superior tactics.
Click my sig and sign up for a class, then make a post about PVP.
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Tovarishch
Caldari
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.11.03 20:00:00 -
[20]
This is a complex and interesting issue... and one that I also feel strongly about.
Currently EVE lacks systems that allow tactics to outweigh numerical advantages. That's not to say that tactics do not exist, it's simply that, at the moment, bringing more people to the fight can make combat so brief that creating a tactical advantage can become very, very difficult. As it stands now.... most tactical advantages are created before the fight begins... not during the fight.
That's the rub. How do you create some dynamic systems that will allow fights to last long enough where tactical advantages can be created during the fight.
It's not an easy problem to solve without creating more problems than you have eliminated. I believe it was Stalin who said that, 'Quantity has a quality all it's own'... and I don't find anything particularly wrong with that. Numbers should be some sort of advantage. Eliminating that advantage by making tactical advantages too powerful would be falling off the other side of the proverbial horse.
It's a difficult issue... and, to be honest, EVE has far bigger problems to tackle at the moment.
All life is sacred... until the client says otherwise. |
Ozzie Asrail
FATAL REVELATIONS
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.03 20:21:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Grey Area
...is that it's just not SUBTLE. There's no thinking time in combat. There's no strategy to a fleet battle...it's just "my big blob vs your big blob"...and gate camps? Pah. You might just as well play snap...it's all about who gets the lock first.
I think, like others in this thread i have an issue with this quote and it's exactly where your first point goes wrong.
The time for subtle tactics (for the most part) starts with ship fittings and ends with the engagment starting. It's actaully alot like actually alot like something like champion manager, you train your players, pick your team, then actually theres not much to do while the match polays out.
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BlackMoon Thrawn
Minmatar
eXceed Inc.
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.03 20:54:00 -
[22]
BOB is good for several reasons. They have thier skillpoints in teh right areas for fleet combat. BS5 large weapon spec and the like. They also have highly skilled support, thier inty pilots are some of the best in teh game and so are thier medium range hac pilots. That said they also have the ingame experience to put those skills to work in teh most effiecient way possible.
Personally the only thing I see wrong with fleet combat atm is the lag, disconects and client desync that are part of just about every fleet battle I have ever been a part of. As far as blobs go they are a legitimate counter to high skill point enemys. Is it really fair to tell half an allaince they have to stay home and not come defend thier space?
I have no idea where you get the notion that most fleet combat happens at 100k. In my experiance it starts at 200k or 15k depending on your role and the type of ships you have availible. This is the age of the cov-ops pilot and you better have several good ones. If you cant get decent hits out to 200k you also better ccome in a support ship because you arnt even going to get in range.
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Nir
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Posted - 2006.11.03 21:00:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Grey Area
...is that it's just not SUBTLE.
Show me a MMO that is? In most that i've played PvP is all about min/maxing your character to the extreme in order get as close to 1 shotting your opponent as you possibly can.
And blobs, zergs and ganking is a part of all of them.
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Vazion
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Posted - 2006.11.03 21:06:00 -
[24]
Back to topic and less about your e-p33n that you wag in front of BoB's face. Or whatever.
There is nothing wrong with Eve. There is nothing wrong with ANY MMORPG. Except Star Wars Galaxies. That game just sucks.
1) I'm gonna have to agree with an above poster..And say that I really don't think you understand 'fleet' combat..No offense of course. Although I do think that all ships should have variety, I came to Eve because I didn't want to play cookie cutter WoW, come on...
2) I hate missions.
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Kaaln
Gallente
Soar Angelic
Pirate Coalition
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Posted - 2006.11.03 21:49:00 -
[25]
So, Tovarishch wins best sig? Agreed?
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Grey Area
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.03 21:50:00 -
[26]
I must be mistaken. Obviously no-one ever complained that they were dead before they had chance to react when warping in to a gatecamp, or that focussed fire in a fleet battle yielded the same result.
It makes me laugh that a post about the gank mentality has itself been ganked.
---
Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums;
Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?"
Cleese: "I've told you once." |
Varheg Xan
Gallente
Aerial Boundaries Inc.
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.03 23:50:00 -
[27]
Missions are boring, but they go quicker with multiple players and you do share the bounties if the NPCs have them. If you're nice you might even split the mission reward among those who help you. Like many things in Eve, cooperating with your corp mates equals less risk and more Isk. Except blob warfare which I don't know much about so I'll quiet down now.
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Grey Area
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.05 10:24:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Varheg Xan
Like many things in Eve, cooperating with your corp mates equals less risk and more Isk.
Wrong!
1. Inviting a corp mate to a mission does NOT halve the time it takes to do the mission, (it may halve the "killing time", but travel is still the same) but it DOES (if you are being fair) halve the income. Also, there is NO way to share the loyalty points. So...how is this "more ISK"?
2. SOME missions are broken...if two ships enter the mission, the whole mission will aggro, randomly targetting the incoming mission runners...so again...how is this "less risk"?
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Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums;
Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?"
Cleese: "I've told you once." |
NeoTech
Out Siders
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.05 11:17:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 03/11/2006 18:18:50
I have heard ASCN leadership complaining about 25% and lower turnout for fleet ops: perhaps you are one of the 75%.
Did BoB tell you that? :P
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James Duar
Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.11.05 11:27:00 -
[30]
Regarding fleet combat, I think the real issue at hand is simply that there isn't and cannot be Line-Of-Sight weapons fire in EVE. Everyone can hit everyone anywhere, so your tactical options become very limited beyond a certain point in size (i.e. 10v10 would be interesting, but groups of 50 and 100 is just 'call primary - fire - call primary - fire').
My personal thoughts on this matter at the moment are that we need to have a fleet system which breaks up the space around a 'fleet' of ships into logical units - sectors - who's position relative to each other provides a simulation of LOS. So for example, putting something with a huge sig radius in an outermost sector will grant corresponding sig radius reductions to ships in inner sectors, but those ships suffer a reduction in sig resolution by being obstructed by larger ships. Of course, fly a bunch of inty's inside someone's sector, and within each sector it's just like combat is now and you can pop the ships being covered. Just as an example.
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Recently returned from vacation on a sunny planet in 0.0. Guess which one! |
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