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Rogerano
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Posted - 2006.11.09 03:42:00 -
[1]
Example.
My ship, Meatspinner, has an ECCM str of 100. P1ssant, my enemy, has a jammer on his ship with a str of 2. Now... the chances of P1ssant jamming my Meatspinner are 1 in 50, however it's still a chance. Let's assume he's sucessful. What are the consequences?
The mighty Meatspinner, with a targeting array capable of burning a hole through a billion gerbils, is rendered utterly useless. ECCM str 100 has in the blink of <insert something witty> gone from something the god of war himself might choose to fit on his Deathstar-which-is-not-a-moon, to a useless pile of steaming p00p. (omg... is p00p really a moderated word?!)
That is not a satisfying game mechanic. It is not a believable mechanic.
I motion that the consequences of a successful jam should be directly influenced by the percentage chance. Reduce jam time based on the % chance.
Or have ECM modules lower the ECCM of the target until their system couldn't reasonably be expected to be powerful enough to target anything (based on size of ship which is related to targeting power needed to feed accurate data to weapons).
Ooooh. That's a clever one. I like that. Or combine the two.
The current ECM changes are inadequate. They still operate on a black and white on/off chance based system, which is not fundamentally different to the current implementation. The best that could happen is that people will be slightly less eager to fit ECM. The worst that could happen is that people are going to realise that it's still a chance based system and fit them anyway, in the hopes that the die lands favourably. Statistically speaking nothing has changed because the die will land favourably sometimes. And given the number of people playing EVE (which is growing) the worst case ECM scenarios will happen more and more frequently.
I'm not proposing a nerf. I'm suggesting that a different approach is taken. One that doesn't make ECM pointless, but one that doesn't allow it prevail in circumstances which are basically unbelievable.
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Rogerano
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Posted - 2006.11.09 04:02:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Rogerano on 09/11/2006 04:04:31 Ooooh ooooh oooh! Or! (This one is good)
Keep the current system. I don't like it, but it can be moulded into an attractive shape.
How about this. When a jam is successful on your ship, you don't lose lock but you also cannot lock any other targets. Now hear me out.
In real life ECM works by making the targeting picture unclear. It doesn't completely shut everything off. Targeting solutions are still available but they may be wildly inaccurate. The same system can be implemented with EVE ECM.
When you're jammed your weapons can't get a clear picture of where they're supposed to point at. So they miss. A lot. Even missiles go off in random directions. Or you could just forcefully deactivate the jammed ships modules. Also, because the ECM ship is making the targeting picture VERY unclear for you, it would be pointless to attempt to lock other targets, so you can't. But the point is you don't lose lock on current targets, BUT you can't shoot them either.
This might nicely compliment the suggested jam time based on % chance thing above, and probably goes nicely with the liberal dose of HP we've been blessed with in Kali.
ECM doesn't become useless or nerfed, it isn't unbelievable, and most importantly it's not p00py. P00p is just such a great word I had to repeat it in this post.
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May Long
Caldari Cross Roads
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Posted - 2006.11.09 06:56:00 -
[3]
I like the fuzzy picture idea. . .would really make people feal ECM more :D _________________ Live long a prosper many times. . .a good sig pending >_> |
Macs Nairegin
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Posted - 2006.11.09 08:32:00 -
[4]
Your first post was "blah blah blah ... I think ECM should do what a sensor damper does".
Your second post was "blah blah blah ... I want a tracking disruptor for missiles".
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Ardan
Minmatar The Shadow Order The Shadow Ascension
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Posted - 2006.11.09 12:55:00 -
[5]
Ok, maybe I am a little ignorant of these things, but why could ecm not work as turrets and and eccm like resistance boosters?
Dependng on your skills and your opponents skills with the devices.
Example:
I have a jammer with a strength of 5 he has a sensor with a strength of 5 (skills included in all). I lock him and start to jam. At the ouside range of my jammer, it does not hit the first time. As we get closer it hits more often, the hits range from 0-5 (depending on range, skill, mods ect.) If I hit, it may do nothing or not enough to be effective, it may completely shut you down for a few seconds, then the next cycle you only get partial sensors strength back, as I hit again for a 3 giving you a sensor strength of 2. (5-3=2) for those of you who MUST have numbers.
Ok, Yeah it is kinda vague. But to get even more vague, how about this.
Different size modules for different size ships. A frig may have a sensor strenth of 5 but a BS has a strenght of 50. So you would need a bs size jammer, or 5 cruiser size jammers (10 frig size) to jam a bs.
And yes I believe there should be a mod or included in ecm a way to reduce the accuracy of missiles.
Just my 0.02 ISK worth.
"Let them hate us as long as they Fear us." Colligula |
Rick Dentill
Lynx Frontier Inc. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.09 13:12:00 -
[6]
Or they could make ECM really rubbish on or nigh on impossible to fit on anything but dedicated ECM boats (kind of doing this anyway). Then they have an excuse to bring in more new ships so all races have ecm capability, just make bbird even more ninjarific. _______
* Disclaimer * Some or all of the above post may not be entirely accurate. |
Kade Jeekin
Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2006.11.09 15:34:00 -
[7]
Or ECM could reduce signature radius. This would make you both more difficult to target and to hit, which is similar to what you are suggesting. Doing this would make FoF missiles slightly more redundant, although they'd still have some uses. Outface the depths of evil with clarity |
Oceemia
Caldari Voice Of X
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Posted - 2006.11.09 17:42:00 -
[8]
now
a little virus, so small you cant even see it with an microscope kills you with the precision of a machine even if you youre a navy seal have trained your body all you lifetime to kill others and nobody could ever help you.
immortality will always be just a dream. even in EVE.
regards Oceemia
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2006.11.09 17:44:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Rogerano Example.
My ship, Meatspinner, has an ECCM str of 100. P1ssant, my enemy, has a jammer on his ship with a str of 2. Now... the chances of P1ssant jamming my Meatspinner are 1 in 50,
No bud, it's not an ECCM with a strength of 100. It is a 100% of the strength of your current radar strength. If it's 10 then your strength is now 20.
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2006.11.09 17:46:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Rick Dentill Or they could make ECM really rubbish on or nigh on impossible to fit on anything but dedicated ECM boats (kind of doing this anyway). Then they have an excuse to bring in more new ships so all races have ecm capability, just make bbird even more ninjarific.
Exactly and the first part is coming out in Kali by making the ECM an explicit weapon of the EW ships only!
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2006.11.09 17:49:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Oceemia now
a little virus, so small you cant even see it with an microscope kills you with the precision of a machine even if you youre a navy seal have trained your body all you lifetime to kill others and nobody could ever help you.
immortality will always be just a dream. even in EVE.
regards Oceemia
Very true Oceemia. In eve however, the people who whine against ECM have a powerful antidote, that they do not bother to fit, or use. No wonder then that the virus is so "powerful".
There is a reason for vaccines, as there is a reason to fit an ECCM module in game - precisely to limit the chance of being infected/jammed. As the doctor will tell you, this vaccine does not make you immune, it lowers the chance that you will contract this desease!
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2006.11.09 17:51:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Kade Jeekin Or ECM could reduce signature radius. This would make you both more difficult to target and to hit, which is similar to what you are suggesting. Doing this would make FoF missiles slightly more redundant, although they'd still have some uses.
reducing your signature does not help vs drones/NOS/other EW, hence it is not a viable defense/attack for a ship that completely relies on ECM to survive, not to mention being useful, as is the case with dedicated EW ECM boats.
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.09 18:04:00 -
[13]
I quite like the idea of ECCM / sensor strength decreasing the time that you are jammed for. It'd make ECCM and ECM more like a damage and resistance setup.
The big problem with ECM, imo, is the fact is it is entirely black and white. EITHER you activate an ECM and it works, target can't shoot back OR you activate an ECM and it doesn't work, nothing happens whatsoever. I'd say keep it so it has a % chance of working or not working, but allow sensor strength to determine the jamming time. It'd make a real reason to fit ECCM aswell as a real reason to have multiple ECM modules on target.
Which is good -----------------------------------------------
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meppa
Black Omega Security The OSS
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Posted - 2006.11.09 18:48:00 -
[14]
In my opinion main ecm problem is that it effectivily counters everything. Comparing it with every other racial ew choise it is clearly superioir. Only thing that even comes close is sensor dampeners which can be countered by going close. Sure tracking disrupting counters turret ships (leaves drones, nos and missiles) effectivily but i would much rather counter everything then just one type of weapon. Perhaps ecm should be changed to work only against missiles and drones so much broader spectrum of ew would be used.
Using one falcon to counter all manner of weapons doesn't encourage team work. It encourages everyone to train caldari specific skills. Before someone argues that it isn't caldari specific and every ship can fit ecm caldari is only race to get bonuses for it like amarr get bonuses for tracking disrupting and gallente sensor dampening.
Changing whole electronic warfare to follow some logic would give much more fun imo. For example racial ew could counter what your race does best. This would lead to
caldari - renders missiles ineffective gallente - messes up with drones amarr - counters turrets minmatar are a tough one as they lack their special field of expertise. Perhaps something to do with signature or speed?
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2006.11.09 18:52:00 -
[15]
Originally by: meppa In my opinion main ecm problem is that it effectivily counters everything. Comparing it with every other racial ew choise it is clearly superioir. Only thing that even comes close is sensor dampeners which can be countered by going close. Sure tracking disrupting counters turret ships (leaves drones, nos and missiles) effectivily but i would much rather counter everything then just one type of weapon. Perhaps ecm should be changed to work only against missiles and drones so much broader spectrum of ew would be used.
Using one falcon to counter all manner of weapons doesn't encourage team work. It encourages everyone to train caldari specific skills. Before someone argues that it isn't caldari specific and every ship can fit ecm caldari is only race to get bonuses for it like amarr get bonuses for tracking disrupting and gallente sensor dampening.
Changing whole electronic warfare to follow some logic would give much more fun imo. For example racial ew could counter what your race does best. This would lead to
caldari - renders missiles ineffective gallente - messes up with drones amarr - counters turrets minmatar are a tough one as they lack their special field of expertise. Perhaps something to do with signature or speed?
Finally something constructive. I fully agree that since ECM has different types of racials, so should the other types of EW.
IMO as ECM is chance based and has availability for Racial, so should be every other EW warfare - chance based and with ability to mess up a certain race's ships as the guy above me suggested.
For turret tracking distruption, there should be drone distruption, misile distruption, ect... same with other types of EW. Dont' forget to make them chance based tho.. EXACTLY like ECM. they noone will have anything to whine about, since the systems' will be comparable...
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Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2006.11.09 19:10:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Azerrad InExile on 09/11/2006 19:12:52
Originally by: Black Scorpio For turret tracking distruption, there should be drone distruption, misile distruption, ect... same with other types of EW. Dont' forget to make them chance based tho.. EXACTLY like ECM. they noone will have anything to whine about, since the systems' will be comparable...
Even if that was done the effects aren't comparable. For example:
when hit by a tracking disruptor -> counter by reducing transversal and range so you can still hit, activating webs, tracking computers when hit by a sensor dampner -> counter by getting closer to stay within your lock range, activating sensor boosters when hit by an ECM -> counter by ???
In the case of tracking disruptors and sensor damps you can counter the effects by piloting skill or by fitting modules which reduce the effect when hit. When hit by an ECM there is absolutely nothing you can do other than wait it out. Even fitting an ECCM won't reduce the effects of an ECM (i.e. you still lose your lock and can't relock for a set period of time). ECCM might lower the chance that you get hit, but you still get hit and can't do a thing about it when it happens.
That is why ECM is overpowered and that is why the Kali nerf doesn't change a thing.
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Pinky Denmark
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Posted - 2006.11.11 11:30:00 -
[17]
ECM is countered by the ECCM - I actually made a suggestion like that before the OP did:
My suggestion
with lowered ECM strength chances to get jammed should be halved (at least bt non-ecm boats) and I believe if anything else has to be done a jam time modifier depending on jamming strength and target sensor strength (which can be greatly increased with ECCM).
This would still let everybody use ECM, but people using ECCM would get jammed less often and suffering lesser penalties (i.e. jammed in less time)...
I'm still very concerned that when Kali (revelations) go live ECM-ships will have suffered a dramatic nerf though...
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RedClaws
Amarr Dragon's Rage Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.11 11:44:00 -
[18]
IMO they should just make the timer a variable aswell.
At the moment you have a chance of being jammed or not.
why not make it like turrets : They don't hit for full damage each time and theres also a chanse they'll hit for more damage. Kind of like a "scratching" and "wrecking" jam.
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Asariasha
Caldari Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.11 12:50:00 -
[19]
A dedicated ECM Scorp fitting leaves no options for shield tanking or other interesting gimmicks. So, a Scorp can't do more than jam jam jam which leads to the folowing point... Due to the fact that Scorpions are supporting BS and not dmg dealing BS the number of Scorp pilots is low, except you fight against well organized fleets.
Your mate jamming you with a wrong racial jammer had much luck. I think the ECM system is ok as it is. If jammed you can't lock anything. Maybe a module would be ok which "locks" your current target-lock meaning you dont loose your target while being jammed. This module could also introduce maybe a skill making it possible to have up to 5 targets which you do not loose while being jammed if you use the fitted module.
And believe me, you do not want a jammer system working like turret dmg (slightly/wrecking). If so a wrecking jam should jam you for at least 1 minute ^^
Greets Asa
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Santa Anna
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Posted - 2006.11.11 13:25:00 -
[20]
Originally by: RedClaws IMO they should just make the timer a variable aswell.
At the moment you have a chance of being jammed or not.
why not make it like turrets : They don't hit for full damage each time and theres also a chanse they'll hit for more damage. Kind of like a "scratching" and "wrecking" jam.
I wouldn't mind this. Generate some random number on each attempt and use that to determine how many (and which) of a target's locks were broken. It may not change things a lot in 1v1, but for small gang or fleet combat it'd make a big difference. It'd also be cool if there were some graphic for ECM, similar to a an ice harvester beam or something. That'd make it a bit easier to tell which scorps were jammers and which were heavily tanked decoys, though.
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Miri Tirzan
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.11 14:58:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Pinky Denmark ECM is countered by the ECCM -
This is not true, all ECCM does is change the probility of ECM working but if it works, there is no counter. Changing the possibility of ECM working from 50% to 15% may mean that it takes longer for it to work but it dones not stop it from working.
All other types of EW have a true counter that reduces the impact. If ECM works, it has full impact every time. All the other modules that counter an EW effect also give a bonus to the ship, but not ECCM.
The suggestion to make ECM reduce damage being done is a good one. It makes ECM more in line with all other forms of EW. Along those lines, have ECCM reduce your signal radius so that this EW counter also gives you a bonus.
svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
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Nahia Senne
Fortunis Novum
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Posted - 2006.11.11 17:25:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Black Scorpio
Very true Oceemia. In eve however, the people who whine against ECM have a powerful antidote, that they do not bother to fit, or use. No wonder then that the virus is so "powerful".
why not use the virus yourself and as a bonus counter enemies turrets, missiles, nos, scramblers, webs and all other offensive modules that require lock?
Make ECCM viable! Give it 25% to scanning resolution! |
Ariel Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.11 18:32:00 -
[23]
Having a random time would be great. Even better would be combining this random time and having your ship automatically re-lock it's previously locked targets after the ECM runs its duration would help out quite a bit.
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VekkTor
Legionari Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.11.11 18:32:00 -
[24]
i'd just ask for a no lock losing effect
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