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Brel
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Posted - 2003.11.08 21:04:00 -
[1]
Why did CCP get the fundamental design so wrong after 10 years of MMO experience in the developer community?
PKers will always dominate in a design that allows them to do so. This is not a reference to balanced PvP, but malicious, obviously very idle people who use all the exploits of the game to get thier kicks. Admittedly these are usually young people, below 14 years old who get a kick out of it - its a statistic.
But a bad game design is a bad game design. Did any of Eve's designers ever play MMO before embarking on this venture? Origin almost completely lost Ultima Online to the plague of PKers, but managed to make fundamental changes in time to save thier game and profit, but not before loosing huge swathes of players.
Why has CCP not learnt from that basic mistake: "PKers will dominate, and the notion of a balanced good and evil player group is a myth"?
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dalman
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Posted - 2003.11.08 21:07:00 -
[2]
hmm, what's the problem then... All you're talking about is whether CCP devs have played MMO games before
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.08 21:18:00 -
[3]
Paranoid alarmist hoping to raise hysteria.
You might as well say criminals dominate the world. When in both reality and Eve life goes on untouched, for the most part, by the effects of crime.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Nugi
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Posted - 2003.11.08 21:28:00 -
[4]
This has got nothing to do with insurance this, 450mm railgun that, the right to fly around in battleships or even the whimperings of carebears... its a matter of game balance. Did you play UO before the shards? The problem is that at the high end the game spirals into chaos. New players are effected.
If I wanted to play a pure PvP game I would join a myriad of others which do a much better job at it.
Exploits, yes exploits like camping at jump in points mean that only those who wish to become pirates get to own the best systems.
My point is there is no such thing as 'the good guys' vs 'the bad guys' (or pirates in the case of Eve). So many, many MMOs have proved this starting with UO.
The pirates say 'too bad, you want to be safe in 0.0 space you have to clout and behave like us'. There will be so called 'good guys' aswell who can own thier own 0.0 space. Wrong! Its a simple myth. The rest say 'I will play this game to that point and then leave'. That is the problem Origin faced, which obviously included dwindling profits. They werent prepared and the game went the way of the carebear. They failed both the PKers and the carebears. CCP is likely to do the same.
So many others got it right though. You want to play in a dangerous PKer infested world, then go there and play in it. If you dont, there is an alternative.
Finally, PKing is not sport, its cheap entertainment for people that have already become bored of the game. Four pirates camping a jump in point in massive ships waiting for some poor mug to arrive in his little cruiser and gets blown out of the sky. There is no challenge in that. Its not GAME. Thats my point.
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Mjr Tom
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Posted - 2003.11.08 21:37:00 -
[5]
Admittedly these are usually young people, below 14 years old who get a kick out of it - its a statistic.
I will believe you, but only if you show me where this was officially proven, and how they want abbout discovering it.
There will be so called 'good guys' aswell who can own thier own 0.0 space. Wrong!
What? I know some people who would beg to differ. I suggest you try looking at facts before you go about spewing claims like this.
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.11.08 21:38:00 -
[6]
Sorry..
thought he said BKer, not PK er
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Nugi
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Posted - 2003.11.08 21:38:00 -
[7]
Here, you take this knife, I'll use this shotgun...now lets play a 'game'.
Ye right. The only people who like this idea are the people holding the shotguns.
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Darodem
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Posted - 2003.11.08 21:48:00 -
[8]
Nugi is spot on right!
I could not have said it better.
Even successful players who claim to not be pirates end up acting like pirates and their excuse is boredom. All this while players who want to add content have to be heard over folks like Morkt (a reference to the lack of coherent content in the post above) and avoid being pigeonholed as carebear.
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Nugi
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Posted - 2003.11.08 21:54:00 -
[9]
 Quote:
There will be so called 'good guys' aswell who can own thier own 0.0 space. Wrong!
What? I know some people who would beg to differ. I suggest you try looking at facts before you go about spewing claims like this.
I'm not saying there will be NO good players or good 'pirates' as it were, I'm saying its well known to MMO developers that exploitative PKers always dominate in the end if game design allows it. A lot of it is about bored players, though, so that in itself is an issue to address. I have hosted open worlds in NWN where this is (or was at the time) largely unavoidable and without serious nannying it sadly slowly erodes the enjoyment of the majority. Its about exploitation.
I played EQ for many a year on the PvP servers, which on the whole was well designed and I enjoyed it immensly.
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piij
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Posted - 2003.11.08 22:19:00 -
[10]
exploitative pk'ers either get banned from the game or hired by the company as head of exploit team (Genevra, AO anyone?)
they dont 'win in the end'
oh and as a matter of fact, mmorpg exploiters arent 14yo ones, they're quite the bit older. 14yo stick to cs and hacktastic games.
(oh yeah btw, one of ccp devs were one of the worst uo pk'ers)
- Care to watch moo dance?
p.i.i.j |
Infinity Ziona
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Posted - 2003.11.08 22:27:00 -
[11]
"Exploits, yes exploits like camping at jump in points mean that only those who wish to become pirates get to own the best systems."
It annoys me when you say pirates, these people are not pirates, they're retards.
Infinity
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Lianhaun
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Posted - 2003.11.08 22:31:00 -
[12]
Quote:
Sorry..
thought he said BKer, not PK er
I would like a moaburger with extra ibis, pls
Now i'm hungry :(
This is not a hijack
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Indigo Seqi
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Posted - 2003.11.08 22:38:00 -
[13]
This applies not only to the PvP problem, it also applies to a lot of other things.
How can CCP have set up such a lacking CS department if they had years of other MMO's experience to profit from?
Now you might say, other companies guard their secrets to a good CS department well, but It's not hard at all to become a guide in EQ for example. And even though EQ's CS isn't what it could be, it's still a lot better than EVE's.
How fun is it to get stuck in a roidbelt 30 jumps from the nearest station and be saved from impending doom by a Polaris only to be told he just has the means to send you back to the station you were last known to be docked safely. Resulting in you flying 30 jumps back there because 1) CCP made you stick to a rock 2) CCP prohibits its CS to make use of any teleportation in the game while helping people.
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Roba
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Posted - 2003.11.08 22:55:00 -
[14]
Ummmm... one problem with what our original poster is complaining about. First read the box, and the flap, and the back of the box.
The game claims to be a PvP hell hole. Live with it.
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cirkelline
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Posted - 2003.11.08 22:57:00 -
[15]
well i think this large pirate "thing" has taken over the game .. non pk's have nearly only 2 choices 1) join an large corp 2)becom pirate 
I dont se any room left for small corp's 5-20 members, this game did have an cool idea and the posebillety to become a GREAT game but looks like its ending up as "another" saad failor.. We dont get newbie's in game with the gameplay we have now.
Ill hate to sound as an whiner, but i hate spending weeks to make isk for an BS to bee shoot down in 0.4 space of a pirate party. Even inside a corp with 16 members we cant mine 0.0 becorse we need to cover each jump-in/outpoint ouer haulers have to go thrug. Then trade u say ? ohh yahh just stay away of 0.4 sec space and belowe, and hope u aint shoot down in 1.0 space of an pirate in frigat becorse concord is slow and look form ur capsle his frind taking ur load freely.
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Slinky Redfoot
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Posted - 2003.11.08 23:16:00 -
[16]
Quote:
But a bad game design is a bad game design. Did any of Eve's designers ever play MMO before embarking on this venture? Origin almost completely lost Ultima Online to the plague of PKers
Actually, UO died with the advent of trammel.All of a sudden there was severely limited pvp, and the carebears at the time were overjoyed...Now they're whining there isn't nearly enough to do, and the game is getting boring.Gee, i wonder why?
Got Banana? |
Slinky Redfoot
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Posted - 2003.11.08 23:17:00 -
[17]
Quote:
I dont se any room left for small corp's 5-20 members
Tell that to CoC.
Got Banana? |
Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.11.08 23:18:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Veruna Caseti on 08/11/2003 23:19:44
Quote:
Ummmm... one problem with what our original poster is complaining about. First read the box, and the flap, and the back of the box.
The game claims to be a PvP hell hole. Live with it.
This isn't a valid point, not by a long shot. For argument's sake, lets ignore the fact that the box and manual advertise many things that don't exist yet, or never will.
Beyond that point, when someone thinks "PvP" I can guarantee you they aren't picturing a system such as EVEs in which lag is king, exploits are queen, and running away to dock at a nearby station is a virtually 99% effective way to avoid combat once an actual threat is perceived.
I've been playing real PvP games for on about 7 years now in the form of Emlen MUDs. Owen Emlen has gifted the multiplayer gaming community with the only consistently balanced and playable PvP system I have ever seen, topping UO, EverQuest, Shadowbane, and all other games that tout themselves as having a PvP experience.
How did he accomplish this? Simple: by focusing on the things that matter in a game dependent on destructive PvP - minimizing cheats and exploits, balancing equipment, classes, and advancement rates, providing "zones" that cater to PvP, making it hard to get away from a losing battle (in Emlens, players falling below 50% leave a bright red trail of blood wherever they go, and cannot log off for at least 10 minutes after engaging in combat, even if they cut link), rewarding players who PvP successfully on an appropriate scale - i.e., someone who bests a human opponent should receive a little more credit than someone blasting away at NPCs or asteroids for that matter.
EVE PvP is a joke. The existence of bugs, exploits, heavy lag (even when its not intentional), the lack of ability to "track" anyone who warps away from a battle, the ability to log off whenever the desire strikes you, and the fact that even penetrating all that, the rewards for PvP are minimal - the chance at a few rare modules and maybe (if you're lucky) something decent in the cargohold...
It's embarassing really, in a player driven economy that should rely heavily on PvP as a "sink" for produced ships and modules, one would think more attention would have been paid to the design of the PvP mechanics.
Veruna Caseti
Ishukone |
Keo Morigan
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Posted - 2003.11.08 23:33:00 -
[19]
I think I got your solution:
Here it is.
I'm sure you'll find yourself at home, and you'll not be harassed by any dirty PK, unless somone build walls around your sim and let him starve to die...
Or Perhaps take away the swimingpool ladder, so he drowns? 
I got a better one, turn off your computer, and never ever play a game. Thanks
If your not a part of the solution, then you'r probably a part of the problem. |
Indigo Seqi
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Posted - 2003.11.08 23:37:00 -
[20]
TS chat:
Player 1: "Guys he's venting warp plasma, scan for the trail!"
Player 2: "Roger that, I picked him up heading to the fifth planet in the system, taking persuit!"
Runner: ***** they're onto me and this piece of poo handles like crap now that I'm this badly damaged, **** **** *****
----
/emote breaks out in heavy orgasms
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Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.11.08 23:41:00 -
[21]
Quote:
TS chat:
Player 1: "Guys he's venting warp plasma, scan for the trail!"
Player 2: "Roger that, I picked him up heading to the fifth planet in the system, taking persuit!"
Runner: ***** they're onto me and this piece of poo handles like crap now that I'm this badly damaged, **** **** *****
----
/emote breaks out in heavy orgasms
How about this one?
Runner: I'm heavily damaged, retreating!
EW Combatant: I've hacked his nav systems, his AP is headed for Yulai cut him off at the gate to X!
Happy PvPer: Roger that, deploying reinforcements. We'll take care of the runner you stick with the main battle.
...also orgasms.
Veruna Caseti
Ishukone |
Nugi
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Posted - 2003.11.08 23:44:00 -
[22]
Quote:
Ummmm... one problem with what our original poster is complaining about. First read the box, and the flap, and the back of the box.
The game claims to be a PvP hell hole. Live with it.
The box fails to mention how easy it is to exploit the game for the benefit of sportless PKing however.
Niether does it mention that the system is at least in part based on the opensource Python scripting language and sql databases which are unstable and sluggish in the first case and one of the slowest forms of data access in the later.
The box also fails to mention that the developer was forced by the publisher to release this game before it was in a 'complete' form. Albeit a grey area in software development but in most parts of the world this is illegal. I may be wrong on this whole thing but it seems to me to be common knowledge that that was the case.
If the box read 'Join this CS-like, exploitable, incomplete marvel!' then I probably wouldnt have paid for it - the box that is. Im not talking about the monthly subscription either - I choose to continue paying that for now - I would at least like to get some value out of what I paid initially for the wonderfully 'informative' and 'promising' box and cd-rom.
A simple case of profiteering, or jumping on the MMO bandwagon imho. Live with that...oh wait we are
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.08 23:49:00 -
[23]
Quote:
How about this one?
Runner: I'm heavily damaged, retreating!
EW Combatant: I've hacked his nav systems, his AP is headed for Yulai cut him off at the gate to X!
Happy PvPer: Roger that, deploying reinforcements. We'll take care of the runner you stick with the main battle.
...also orgasms.
How about this one:
Quit deluding yourself in thinking the majority are complaining about the mechanics of PvP.
Yes it's a heavy and high factor. But if the broken mechanics are removed, you'll find many of the same people still pushing for the nerfing of pirates, referring to them as psychopathic 14 year olds and trying the same hysteria provoking BS using player pirates/PvP as an excuse to either prevent having something nerf or to have it nerfed to their benefit.
Before CCP can address the mechanics, they have to address that broken attitude.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
piij
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Posted - 2003.11.08 23:50:00 -
[24]
then sell your account on ebay and stop whining?
- Care to watch moo dance?
p.i.i.j |
Nugi
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Posted - 2003.11.09 00:10:00 -
[25]
Quote:
then sell your account on ebay and stop whining?
Tell that to all these people: Babey
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Fred0
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Posted - 2003.11.09 00:18:00 -
[26]
By Jash:
Before CCP can address the mechanics, they have to address that broken attitude.
Well that's never gonna happen. What CCP needs to do is remember the vision they have for this game and go after it. Letting the playerbase / amount of subscribers being their judge.
If CCP starts caving in to the constant whines on the forums we are gonna end up with a little bit of everything effectively killing this game.
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.09 00:33:00 -
[27]
Quote:
By Jash:
Before CCP can address the mechanics, they have to address that broken attitude.
Well that's never gonna happen. What CCP needs to do is remember the vision they have for this game and go after it. Letting the playerbase / amount of subscribers being their judge.
If CCP starts caving in to the constant whines on the forums we are gonna end up with a little bit of everything effectively killing this game.
That would be addressing the broken attitude, especially if they look at the damage of what caving to previous whining did to the game.
Or do you believe Disneyland Meets Afghanistan (Cold War Era)Ö with the border between the two being razor thin was the original intention? 
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
agrizla
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Posted - 2003.11.09 01:49:00 -
[28]
Another bloody PK'er thread
OK lets get this absolutely straight shall we?
WHAT THE HELL IS THERE TO DO IN THIS GAME APART FROM PvP?
At the start yeah sure you can do other things. If you're into economic domination then yeah you can try that - and succeed and get so bored you quit (like the Techell peeps).
Research means bugger all. Faction standing means bugger all (although it might "soon" - heh!).
This game is all about PvP and due to the many broken/unimplemented aspects of the game then it boils down to :
"He who kills wins"
Big generalisation there I know but really the game is all about whether you (or your corp/alliance) can kill more than you die. Don't want to try your luck? Well then you're stuck in 0.5+ space.
The game could be a lot more than this but right now it's not. So hey, people can only play what's in front of them.
/em waits for flames
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Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.11.09 01:54:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Veruna Caseti on 09/11/2003 01:59:22
Edited by: Veruna Caseti on 09/11/2003 01:58:50
Quote:
Before CCP can address the mechanics, they have to address that broken attitude.
Who is deluded here? CCP can "address people's attitudes"? What are they, our therapists now?
Sorry, fixing broken PvP mechanics is all CCP can do to address people's poor views of PvP. Give them a system that works well, is free of cheats and exploits, and fills an indispensible role in the game and I think you will find many people changing their tune in the whole "all pirates are griefers" moanfest.
Regardless, given a prefect system, there are some people who will never 'see the light' of what an invaluable resource decent PvP can provide in a game, especially one driven by player-based manufacturing of items and equipment; but that's just how the world works, these people won't be happy in a PvP heavy game regardless of how much you wish CCP could magically "address their attitudes."
Quote:
This game is all about PvP and due to the many broken/unimplemented aspects of the game then it boils down to :
"He who kills wins"
Big generalisation there I know but really the game is all about whether you (or your corp/alliance) can kill more than you die. Don't want to try your luck? Well then you're stuck in 0.5+ space.
Not only a big generalisation, but a wildly inaccurate one based on an egocentric view of the game. There are plenty of people who find a great deal of fun, satisfaction, and success in EVE without making PvP their primary concern. This won't change; in fact the population will probably grow as more "non-PvP" aspects are added to the game and existing ones are completed and/or fixed.
EVE's diverse, even as it stands now. It's not "all about PvP" any more than it is "all about Mining" or "all about trading" or "all about hangar theft."
Veruna Caseti
Ishukone |
Lola
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Posted - 2003.11.09 02:48:00 -
[30]
Taking PvP out of EVE would be like taking PvP out of Monopoly or Chess. You'd just be moving pieces around on a board.
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Sig rented by Drethen Nerevitas. |
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