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Loka Gallente adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.09 15:13:00 - [1] 13 mil in gunnery, 8mil in spaceship including lvl 5 BS and iam back to the NOS > DPS game. I know how to adapt and i will again. I know lot of different tactics and how to win fights. But what really saddens me is that years of training for T2 guns is void, because of the ueberness of NOS again. It saddens me that fitting 2 Nos & 2 Neut with 4 T2 guns only will be much more usefull after HP increase, even when having only half DPS. Because once your CAP is dead, it wont matter if you are toast in 20 or 40 sec. Also if my cap is sucked dry, it wont matter if my Blasterthron can bring 1200 DPS of pain ot the battlefield, if my guns dont activate. My character will be as good as someone with good NOS skills. Ok enough of rant, i will bring a suggestion too about NOS. Change NOS&Neutralizers that you cant drain last 15% of enemys cap. _________________________ Noob In Action - [NIA]
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.09 15:19:00 - [2] They were planning to make nos unable to suck ALL cap, and leave some. But we'll see if that gets implemented or not... --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Zeknichov Amarr Black Avatar Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.09 15:27:00 - [3] I see the problem not being so much NOS but that all combat takes place within 20km which is the range of NOS. Increase warp disruption range IMO.
Ruato Gallente Gurgleblaster Industries	Posted - 2006.11.09 15:28:00 - [4] And how will fights be like if NOS is nerfed? Yeah, guy who has the most cap booster charges wins. (ie: cargo capacity > your damage). And if they nerf NOS, they also pretty much completely destroy Domi. I think better way to adjust NOS without completely destroying one tactic is to add modules in game that reduce the effectiveness of energy neutralizers and vampires. That way tactic is still viable, but you can protect yourself if you want to. --- *Get rid of those bleeping secure containers. bleep!*
Ernest Graefenberg Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.09 15:33:00 - [5] Yay, let's nerf nos instead of rolling the hitpoint boost back. That's brilliant, if we try really hard we might break 5 more things before Kali hits.
Loka Gallente adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.09 15:37:00 - [6] Originally by: Ruato And how will fights be like if NOS is nerfed? Yeah, guy who has the most cap booster charges wins. (ie: cargo capacity > your damage). I consider me as Veteran, with lot of skillpoints spend for combat only. But when someone can come and just NOS me, that i cant defend myself against, than something is wrong. YES imho a 30mil sp character should be able to fight a 5mil sp character. Because thats all you need, to fly a decent ship, fit some nos in highs and finish him off with low DPS. Iam talking here about 1vs1. I would laugh seeing NPC having such uber NOS settups and shredding all the Agentrunners. You can even spend billions of isk for factionsmods and someone in his Supernos ship comes along, dry your cap and finish you of with 100 dps. Thats thrill right. There is only two ways currently to defend yourself against NOS. 1. NOS back 2. Use a passive shieldtank, with AC or Missiles, which use no CAP. 3. perma JAM But as we all know, NOS ships will fit some kind of jamming Modules too. Which will reduce your chances. Originally by: Ruato And if they nerf NOS, they also pretty much completely destroy Domi. Wrong dual 250mm II are not bad on a Domi, if you add the Drone DPS. Originally by: Ruato I think better way to adjust NOS without completely destroying one tactic is to add modules in game that reduce the effectiveness of energy neutralizers and vampires. That way tactic is still viable, but you can protect yourself if you want to. That is something to be considered, depending on the usefullness of the modules and how many slots you have to waste to protect yourself. If its like ECCM, no thanks. _________________________ Noob In Action - [NIA]
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.09 15:45:00 - [7] Heh, ECM nerf? Nos nerf? Ships-who-use-capacitor nerf? Drone nerf? Surely it'd just be quicker to take the Domi out of the game I joke, I mean don't panic lads, atleast it'll still be able to do mid-range moderate damage with delayed alpha for a short time with no tank! W00t! -----------------------------------------------
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.09 15:48:00 - [8] Originally by: Jim McGregor They were planning to make nos unable to suck ALL cap, and leave some. But we'll see if that gets implemented or not... Lol. Who cares? I fit neuts on my all-nos setups anyway just to cripple their cap that much faster. 4 Medium nos, 2x Neut, and even if nos didn't remove that last little bit of cap, those 2 med neuts sure as hell will. Replace Large nos/neuts for BS. BTW, did you know that there are rigs to further improve the cap use ratio of neutralizers? Look at the stats for best named medium neuts with maxed skills, and then buff it by 30%. Neuts will CRUSH the enemy cap while only costing you about 50% as much yourself, allowing you to feed the neuts with the nos cap you're getting back from the enemy ship. Net cap loss for you: 0. And just in case, fit an injector anyway. Because I said so...
Loka Gallente adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.09 16:00:00 - [9] Well whats then the point again in traing for maximise your DPS again? why not using 4 slots for NOS and 4 for DMG on all setups. If your cap will die due to the HP increase much faster than your HP, than why bothering training in high weaponskills? Why have i traing BS lvl 5 or specs to lvl 5, if i end up using high NOS setups, with low DPS? NOS will effect everyone, but Minmatar and Caldari, will still shoot back, even if they have no cap for their tank left. Since i can think i was forced to take heavy backdraws, when using my blasters and i still used them, because they were fun. How much more beating must my Blasterthron take until it will be completely useless? How about new skills for increasing CAP and decreasing capusage of weapons then. _________________________ Noob In Action - [NIA]
Xoduse Beasts of Burden Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.11.09 16:39:00 - [10] I believe making the last 15% of somone's capacitor invulnerable to nos is a great idea. This keeps nos from destroying tanks and shutting down hybrid and laser weapons systems, which is a good thing. ---------------------
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.11.09 17:19:00 - [11] Originally by: Loka Well whats then the point again in traing for maximise your DPS again? why not using 4 slots for NOS and 4 for DMG on all setups. If your cap will die due to the HP increase much faster than your HP, than why bothering training in high weaponskills? Why have i traing BS lvl 5 or specs to lvl 5, if i end up using high NOS setups, with low DPS? NOS will effect everyone, but Minmatar and Caldari, will still shoot back, even if they have no cap for their tank left. Because if you are fighting someone and you both have 4/4 weapon/nos setups then you will be doing more DPS than he is while nossing the same amount, therefore you win.
Nicocat Caldari New Age Solutions	Posted - 2006.11.09 17:30:00 - [12] I'm all for Nos nerfs, despite flying Nanophoons. Swat the Domi back to a balanced state and make tacklers a little more viable once more. ---------------------------- Please don't try to troll in your signature -Eldo([email protected]) I tried?
Ruato Gallente Gurgleblaster Industries	Posted - 2006.11.09 17:42:00 - [13] Edited by: Ruato on 09/11/2006 17:47:18 Originally by: Xoduse I believe making the last 15% of somone's capacitor invulnerable to nos is a great idea. This keeps nos from destroying tanks and shutting down hybrid and laser weapons systems, which is a good thing. Actually its not. If you fit NOS, you nerf your own damage. And if you cant completely drain enemy cap, theres very little point fitting NOS in your ship. And as someone said earlier, it wouldnt even matter because you could just throw energy neutralizer in and kill that remaining 15%. Theres lot better ways to deal with this than completely destroy NOS (and im not even too sure if this even remotely as big issue as all these whines say it is). Thats because NOS mostly affect 1v1 pvp fights, which isnt that big deal in the long run. (fly with your friends if you cant deal with nos'ing ships) Sure, balancing the game is always good, but problem with most of these NOS balance threads is that they are not aimed to balance anything. They are simply aimed to completely destroy it. OP flies with Ship Setup A, and when he gets his ass handed to him by Ship Setup B, Setup B MUST be nerfed to hell. --- *Get rid of those bleeping secure containers. bleep!*
IlIlIIlIlIlIlIIllIIllIlI	Posted - 2006.11.09 18:08:00 - [14] Originally by: Ruato If you fit NOS, you nerf your own damage. Q: What is damage? A: A means to break someones tank Q: Whats a tank? A: A cap-guzzling form of negating damage So whether you deal damage to a tank directly or indirectly, they both do the exact same thing.. You don't "nerf your own damage" at all by fitting Nosferatu, you're just dealing it in a different way.
Santa Anna	Posted - 2006.11.09 18:08:00 - [15] Originally by: Ruato Edited by: Ruato on 09/11/2006 17:47:18 Originally by: Xoduse I believe making the last 15% of somone's capacitor invulnerable to nos is a great idea. This keeps nos from destroying tanks and shutting down hybrid and laser weapons systems, which is a good thing. Actually its not. If you fit NOS, you nerf your own damage. And if you cant completely drain enemy cap, theres very little point fitting NOS in your ship. And as someone said earlier, it wouldnt even matter because you could just throw energy neutralizer in and kill that remaining 15%. Theres lot better ways to deal with this than completely destroy NOS (and im not even too sure if this even remotely as big issue as all these whines say it is). Thats because NOS mostly affect 1v1 pvp fights, which isnt that big deal in the long run. (fly with your friends if you cant deal with nos'ing ships) Sure, balancing the game is always good, but problem with most of these NOS balance threads is that they are not aimed to balance anything. They are simply aimed to completely destroy it. OP flies with Ship Setup A, and when he gets his ass handed to him by Ship Setup B, Setup B MUST be nerfed to hell. If the problem is with some specific setup, they could always make it impossible to mount nos+ecm or nos+scram or something like that. I think scram and ecm should both be high slot mods, but that may be because I tank in mids.
Ruato Gallente Gurgleblaster Industries	Posted - 2006.11.09 18:49:00 - [16] Originally by: Santa Anna If the problem is with some specific setup, they could always make it impossible to mount nos+ecm or nos+scram or something like that. Seems that most of these "Nerf NOS!" -threads are coming from blaster ship pilots (no wonder there because you have to go in nos range if you want to do damage). So, maybe problem lies in that mighty blasterthron, and not in nos itself. They dont want to change their uber setup, so they want NOS nerfed. --- *Get rid of those bleeping secure containers. bleep!*
Brother Todd	Posted - 2006.11.09 18:55:00 - [17] Originally by: Ruato They dont want to change their uber setup, so they want NOS nerfed. Kinda like all you Nosdomi asshats don't want to lose your I-exploit button, so you don't want NOS nerfed...
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.09 19:13:00 - [18] to give a certain amount of unnosable cap can be a good idea, but also consider that at 20% your cap is probably going to fall anyway another solution i like is to give "nos turrets" to various ships.. for how i see it, the problem is not on a single nos, but by the fact that in some situations who have more noses win, turrets for nos can stop the run to nosage as nos will be capped still it will be possible to drain other ships but a thing is to do that with 1-2 nos another with 7-8
Xoduse Beasts of Burden Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.11.09 19:26:00 - [19] Originally by: Ruato Originally by: Santa Anna If the problem is with some specific setup, they could always make it impossible to mount nos+ecm or nos+scram or something like that. Seems that most of these "Nerf NOS!" -threads are coming from blaster ship pilots (no wonder there because you have to go in nos range if you want to do damage). So, maybe problem lies in that mighty blasterthron, and not in nos itself. They dont want to change their uber setup, so they want NOS nerfed. Totally not true. I'd like it better if nos was completely removed from the game than if Kali went Live the way nos is at the moment - a tank breaker in a game where tank is king. Gallente/Amarr shouldnt be waiting for their ships to explode while being outnossed, and nos shouldnt be breaking tanks - the dps of the freakin guns should. One nos as a means to trickle some cap off an opponent is fine by me, but as it stands now on SiSi combat is purely about who has more. ---------------------
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.11.09 20:43:00 - [20] Originally by: Ruato Originally by: Santa Anna If the problem is with some specific setup, they could always make it impossible to mount nos+ecm or nos+scram or something like that. Seems that most of these "Nerf NOS!" -threads are coming from blaster ship pilots (no wonder there because you have to go in nos range if you want to do damage). So, maybe problem lies in that mighty blasterthron, and not in nos itself. They dont want to change their uber setup, so they want NOS nerfed. I'm sorry, but some people were under the impression that if a ship has 6 or 7 turret hardpoints and a bonus to some form of turret, turrets should be the best things to put in those high slots. As it stands, nos is the best thing to put in those high slots. --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Harotak	Posted - 2006.11.09 20:52:00 - [21] What if they raised cap capacity on all ships by 50% and also made the base recharge time 50% more?
Ozzie Asrail FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.09 20:52:00 - [22] Originally by: Xoduse I believe making the last 15% of somone's capacitor invulnerable to nos is a great idea. This keeps nos from destroying tanks and shutting down hybrid and laser weapons systems, which is a good thing. With respect, 15% is pretty much pointless. Just a back of napkin calculation... LARII = 400 7x Electron II = (7x7) = 49 15% 4000 = 600 With 15% cap protection a blasterthron will get 1 rep cycle and 4 gun activations. Using neutrons you might not even get 2 gun cycles. Not to mention with <15% cap means your recharge rate drops through the floor also. Anything less than 50% will mean nothing to cap intensive ships while it will boost non-cap intensive ships due to having a un-nosable cap reserve for scrams\webs\ecm\etc. -----
Master OlavPancrazio Einherjar Rising Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.09 20:55:00 - [23] The problem is that NOS outranges warp scramblers, plain and simple. The word "Vampire" denonates short range, but in reality 12 range medium, and 21 range heavy really isn't all that short given that warp scramblers only go up to 20k. Theres absolutely no way to "keep out of nos range" unless you want your target to go away. This is where the problem of nos stems from.
Barek Amarr Blueprint Haus	Posted - 2006.11.09 21:21:00 - [24] Edited by: Barek on 09/11/2006 21:28:30 Edited by: Barek on 09/11/2006 21:28:09 Originally by: Master OlavPancrazio The problem is that NOS outranges warp scramblers, plain and simple. The word "Vampire" denonates short range, but in reality 12 range medium, and 21 range heavy really isn't all that short given that warp scramblers only go up to 20k. Theres absolutely no way to "keep out of nos range" unless you want your target to go away. This is where the problem of nos stems from. D'oh! didnt post what i wrote! ok, heres a few ideas A) give NoS stacking penaltys.. B Increas cycle time, reduce drain amount and Reduce range, But give skills to be able to increase all these, more skills i know, but its an option. C) since they fit into highs, why not treat them as weapons? give them tracking speeds, optimal and falloff and allow sig radius to effect it also. The drain amount could vary depending on distance and if you can track the target, Small NoS would be very good at tracking but poor range and low drain amount as now. just a few ideas of the top of my head
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.11.09 21:23:00 - [25] Originally by: Master OlavPancrazio The problem is that NOS outranges warp scramblers, plain and simple. The word "Vampire" denonates short range, but in reality 12 range medium, and 21 range heavy really isn't all that short given that warp scramblers only go up to 20k. Theres absolutely no way to "keep out of nos range" unless you want your target to go away. This is where the problem of nos stems from. I think "Vampire" denotes suck.
Ryo Jang Central Defiance Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.11.09 22:21:00 - [26] i never understood why the capacitor has such **** recharge at low levels. a real capacitor would have its highest recharge rate when its empty.
infraX Caldari Finite Horizon The Red Skull	Posted - 2006.11.09 22:26:00 - [27] Originally by: Loka 13 mil in gunnery, 8mil in spaceship including lvl 5 BS and iam back to the NOS > DPS game. I know how to adapt and i will again. I know lot of different tactics and how to win fights. But what really saddens me is that years of training for T2 guns is void, because of the ueberness of NOS again. It saddens me that fitting 2 Nos & 2 Neut with 4 T2 guns only will be much more usefull after HP increase, even when having only half DPS. Because once your CAP is dead, it wont matter if you are toast in 20 or 40 sec. Also if my cap is sucked dry, it wont matter if my Blasterthron can bring 1200 DPS of pain ot the battlefield, if my guns dont activate. My character will be as good as someone with good NOS skills. Ok enough of rant, i will bring a suggestion too about NOS. Change NOS&Neutralizers that you cant drain last 15% of enemys cap. Amen. I hear ya....but I don't think the 15% thing makes any difference becase that's not gonna do anything to help, 1 rep or a couple of guns and you cap out anyways, regardless if you have that 15% and 800 boosters to fire or not.
infraX Caldari Finite Horizon The Red Skull	Posted - 2006.11.09 22:28:00 - [28] Originally by: Ruato And how will fights be like if NOS is nerfed? Yeah, guy who has the most cap booster charges wins. (ie: cargo capacity > your damage). I'd like you to meet my blasterthron and say that. I guarantee you wont be around long enough to use all your charges. Shame this doesn't hold true after the kali patch.
Deva Blackfire DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.09 22:28:00 - [29] 15% would mean after repping i could fire my guns till next injector cycle as amarr... (on larger ships ofc like BCs or BS). Absolution =~ 3000 cap, 15% = 450. Enough to use guns for a while.
infraX Caldari Finite Horizon The Red Skull	Posted - 2006.11.09 22:33:00 - [30] Originally by: Xoduse I believe making the last 15% of somone's capacitor invulnerable to nos is a great idea. This keeps nos from destroying tanks and shutting down hybrid and laser weapons systems, which is a good thing. and just how far do you think that last 15% cap will get you? 1 LAR cycle? 1 more volley from your guns?
Phrixus Zephyr Yesodic Nomads Corp Triumvirate.	Posted - 2006.11.09 22:35:00 - [31] Tell you what, everyone fit's NOS in their highs and NOS drones and we see who's the last one standing when we bump eachother to death.
Deva Blackfire DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.09 22:36:00 - [32] 1 med rep cycle + 3-4 volleys on abso (or eventually 7-8 volleys). Maybe not THAT much but every hit counts :)
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.09 22:40:00 - [33] Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr Tell you what, everyone fit's NOS in their highs and NOS drones and we see who's the last one standing when we bump eachother to death. I made a Hyperion fit with 6x Heavy nos, 2x Heavy neuts, and 10x medium drones. I kill their drones, wait for them to cap out, then Kill the ship itself. AC and Missile users: I can still tank their damage long enoug after they cap out with my 19 cap charges to live as my 5 medium drones eat through their broken active or weak passive tank. Only downside: it takes about an hour. Because I said so...
Phrixus Zephyr Yesodic Nomads Corp Triumvirate.	Posted - 2006.11.09 22:59:00 - [34] Edited by: Phrixus Zephyr on 09/11/2006 22:59:33 Originally by: murder one Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr Tell you what, everyone fit's NOS in their highs and NOS drones and we see who's the last one standing when we bump eachother to death. I made a Hyperion fit with 6x Heavy nos, 2x Heavy neuts, and 10x medium drones. I kill their drones, wait for them to cap out, then Kill the ship itself. AC and Missile users: I can still tank their damage long enoug after they cap out with my 19 cap charges to live as my 5 medium drones eat through their broken active or weak passive tank. Only downside: it takes about an hour. You just wait till you can nos drones, then you'll be screwed. Sansha ships will be so overpowered....
Loka Gallente adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.10 09:36:00 - [35] My problems is more that i cant really defend myself against NOS. My Gallente ships dont have enough medslots for ECM¦s, nor are gallente ueber Cap ships. Flying a gallente ship is most time like driving on the edge. One false step left or right and you are screwed. And NOS is something i cant defend at all. Last time i was in my Deimos, a Ferox came along, NOS¦ed me in few cycles and vaporised my 190mil isk expensive toy, with his ** DPS and setup, with only few skillpoints invested using NOS. I dont speak here, about loosing a ship. I speak here about a module, which is much more supirior than any DPS you can field. This already hold true on TQ for anything smaller a BS or non Caldari/Minmatar. BS aint THAT valunable to NOS, because heavy injector and hugh CAP to start with. But anything else is dry in few cycles. Because of slot and PG limitation you CANT fit everytime a cap injector. fitting a NOS is much easier and helps also your CAP/Tank. Not been able to Tank is fine. But sitting there for 5 min seein your ship get ripped by 15 DPS makes me sad. Its like a module which deactivates your Keyboard once fired. How is that a game, if you cant play? You cant MWD out of range, because of no cap. Most ships cant shoot back or use any module. How about a low/medslot module, which decrease the effectiveness to NOS against you. Like hardeners do for DPS. _________________________ Noob In Action - [NIA]**
Nebrin	Posted - 2006.11.10 11:05:00 - [36] Edited by: Nebrin on 10/11/2006 11:07:48 There should be mods or rigs that negate the effect of a Nos. No not destroying it completely, but doing something like 10% decrease in energy transfer from enemy nos, or a 20% increase in enemy nos time cycle" Also, Gallante and Amarr ships should have a faster cap recharge rate than Mini and Caldari, Amarr having the highest of the 2 of course. And think this through before flaming me. Fights are going to last MUCH longer now with Kali coming out, but the caps wernt messed with at ALL. Its already hard enough to 1 v. 1 an enemy ship and hold your cap, but now its like, if your fighting Caldari or Minmitar, your screwed, your not going to be able to deal damage and tank anymore, especially for Amarr. Anywho, thats just my personal thoughts to this.
Mr John22ta Amarr Dismemberment	Posted - 2006.11.10 11:40:00 - [37] Edited by: Mr John22ta on 10/11/2006 11:41:11 Originally by: Barek D'oh! didnt post what i wrote! ok, heres a few ideas A) give NoS stacking penaltys.. B Increas cycle time, reduce drain amount and Reduce range, But give skills to be able to increase all these, more skills i know, but its an option. C) since they fit into highs, why not treat them as weapons? give them tracking speeds, optimal and falloff and allow sig radius to effect it also. The drain amount could vary depending on distance and if you can track the target, Small NoS would be very good at tracking but poor range and low drain amount as now. just a few ideas of the top of my head thats the best idea i have heared since i made a post about sig affecting it :P ---------------------------------------------------- My sig is my own
Felicia Stone Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.10 12:10:00 - [38] What's that old line? Aah yes, Keep It Simple Stupid... If a change like adding 50% health to all ships unbalances the entire game, simply don't implement the change! IMO the advantages (lasting 5 secs longer in fleet fights) are somewhat outwayed by the disadvantages (small fights become slow and boring, nos = win, amarr and gallente might as well hang up their guns and become miners) Flic
Zarch AlDain Friends of Everyone	Posted - 2006.11.10 12:16:00 - [39] Options for NOS: A capacitor shield module (low slot? low and mid varients?): Reduces nos and neut by 50% per module fitted (no stacking penalty) Tracking/sig radius effects: Smaller/faster ships get nossed less - similar to how guns work Energy Hardpoints: A number of energy hardpoints per ship, nos, neuts, maybe smartbombs (anything else?) require energy hardpoints. Effectiveness: NOS effectiveness is modified based on your remaining cap (i.e. if you have 50% cap they only NOS you 50% of their normal amount. Drain Limit: NOS/neut cannot drain you below a certain level. At least one of these changes is needed urgently, ideally two of them. Zarch AlDain
Lenaria Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.12 06:48:00 - [40] Nos are fine as is, and with proposed ECM changes they will be much less usefull than currently on TQ. Right now Dominix and Ishtars are so overpowered becouse of ECM - they can evade damage while sucking your cap. After the changes it will be much harder to do, and high DPS ships will have good chances to kill them before they are jammed and out of cap.
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.12 07:49:00 - [41] Originally by: Lenaria Nos are fine as is, and with proposed ECM changes they will be much less usefull than currently on TQ. Right now Dominix and Ishtars are so overpowered becouse of ECM - they can evade damage while sucking your cap. After the changes it will be much harder to do, and high DPS ships will have good chances to kill them before they are jammed and out of cap. No, not really. Right now, whoever has more nos wins. Especially vs Amarr/Gallente. Nos needs to be nerfed by 50% at least. Because I said so...
Johnny Bravo Gallente Draconis Navitas Aeterna	Posted - 2006.11.12 07:56:00 - [42] Originally by: murder one Originally by: Lenaria Nos are fine as is, and with proposed ECM changes they will be much less usefull than currently on TQ. Right now Dominix and Ishtars are so overpowered becouse of ECM - they can evade damage while sucking your cap. After the changes it will be much harder to do, and high DPS ships will have good chances to kill them before they are jammed and out of cap. No, not really. Right now, whoever has more nos wins. Especially vs Amarr/Gallente. Nos needs to be nerfed by 50% at least. Hmm... not true at all. Lets see: my setup - blasterhron with cap booster and tank. Your setup - megathron with 4x blasters, 4 NOS. Guess who win?
tarin adur	Posted - 2006.11.12 11:04:00 - [43] Originally by: Ruato Originally by: Santa Anna If the problem is with some specific setup, they could always make it impossible to mount nos+ecm or nos+scram or something like that. Seems that most of these "Nerf NOS!" -threads are coming from blaster ship pilots (no wonder there because you have to go in nos range if you want to do damage). So, maybe problem lies in that mighty blasterthron, and not in nos itself. They dont want to change their uber setup, so they want NOS nerfed. the problem is that our best ship,quite possibly the strongest BS has been reduced to having to fit Nos to even be competitive,because any ship with acouple of hvy nos will suck a blasterthron dry faster then you can break there shields due to the massive ammount of cap we'll need to turn our guns/tank on and them nossing the hell out of us. it's not so much that we don't like Nos,it's that we want our ships to actually work...
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.12 11:10:00 - [44] Originally by: Johnny Bravo Edited by: Johnny Bravo on 12/11/2006 08:06:13 Originally by: murder one Originally by: Lenaria Nos are fine as is, and with proposed ECM changes they will be much less usefull than currently on TQ. Right now Dominix and Ishtars are so overpowered becouse of ECM - they can evade damage while sucking your cap. After the changes it will be much harder to do, and high DPS ships will have good chances to kill them before they are jammed and out of cap. No, not really. Right now, whoever has more nos wins. Especially vs Amarr/Gallente. Nos needs to be nerfed by 50% at least. Hmm... not true at all. Lets see: my setup - blasterhron with cap booster and tank. Your setup - megathron with 4x blasters, 4 NOS. Guess who win? Or even better: my setup - blaster Enyo with 1 nos. Your setup - Enyo with 3 nos and 2 blasters. Guess who win? I dont see large numbers of NOS are universally used on high damage ships like Armageddon, Megathron, Tempest, Thorax and likes. That proves you are wrong. Now, if NOS would be less effective than addidional gun at aiding ship killing, than WHY anyone would use NOS at all? I mean, its exactly THE purpose of the NOS - to help killing the enemy more effectivly than just with guns. Moreover, NOS are effective only in very limited situations, useally only in duels or very small gangs. That alone is enouth to keep it as is. Lol. Not in Kali... maybe in RMR, but that's no longer the case in Kali. You'll be cap dry loooong before you break my tank. Because I said so...
Aphotic Raven	Posted - 2006.11.12 11:45:00 - [45] Originally by: Loka Originally by: Ruato And how will fights be like if NOS is nerfed? Yeah, guy who has the most cap booster charges wins. (ie: cargo capacity > your damage). I consider me as Veteran, with lot of skillpoints spend for combat only. But when someone can come and just NOS me, that i cant defend myself against, than something is wrong. YES imho a 30mil sp character should be able to fight a 5mil sp character. Because thats all you need, to fly a decent ship, fit some nos in highs and finish him off with low DPS. Iam talking here about 1vs1. I would laugh seeing NPC having such uber NOS settups and shredding all the Agentrunners. You can even spend billions of isk for factionsmods and someone in his Supernos ship comes along, dry your cap and finish you of with 100 dps. Thats thrill right. There is only two ways currently to defend yourself against NOS. 1. NOS back 2. Use a passive shieldtank, with AC or Missiles, which use no CAP. 3. perma JAM But as we all know, NOS ships will fit some kind of jamming Modules too. Which will reduce your chances. Originally by: Ruato And if they nerf NOS, they also pretty much completely destroy Domi. Wrong dual 250mm II are not bad on a Domi, if you add the Drone DPS. Originally by: Ruato I think better way to adjust NOS without completely destroying one tactic is to add modules in game that reduce the effectiveness of energy neutralizers and vampires. That way tactic is still viable, but you can protect yourself if you want to. That is something to be considered, depending on the usefullness of the modules and how many slots you have to waste to protect yourself. If its like ECCM, no thanks. You've already said that they have to kill you with low dps. If you suck enough to just let them then its your own fault. I'm one of those 5 mil sp chars who use a lot of nos, its not easy to kill high SP pilots, and impossible to kill most t2 stuff in t1 equivalents (which is where most 5mil pilots are at... ). Just having 30mil points does not make you god and that is why eve is good, it does give you a huge advantage though and failing to utilize it is no one else's fault. You realise that once your cap is gone, his cap goes as well? so you're both dry pretty quick, NOSing does work well but its not the be all and end all. Just because it works, doesnt make it great, after all you have better DPS even with dry cap you can probably still fire occasionally... unless you're totally dependent on high cap usage weapons.... I think you should re-evaluate your plans, after all heavy blasters can outrange nos if you think before you shoot, spending billions of isk on setups doesnt matter if they are flawed or applied incorrectly.... Yes NOS will perhaps be more important in kali but only slightly... after all the NOSer needs to kill your cap and rep until all your equiptment shuts off... then he can kill you, this wont change at all with kali... it will just give your/his friends more time to warp in before you die, the winner will be decided early on as always and it will simply take longer to get to that eventuality, perhaps giving you more time to warp away or (god smite you down) tank for 20 seconds then jump/dock. So in closing: 5mil chars should beat 30mil chars who are using inferior setups and tactics.....
Aphotic Raven	Posted - 2006.11.12 11:50:00 - [46] Originally by: Loka My problems is more that i cant really defend myself against NOS. My Gallente ships dont have enough medslots for ECM¦s, nor are gallente ueber Cap ships. Flying a gallente ship is most time like driving on the edge. One false step left or right and you are screwed. And NOS is something i cant defend at all. Last time i was in my Deimos, a Ferox came along, NOS¦ed me in few cycles and vaporised my 190mil isk expensive toy, with his ** DPS and ** setup, with only few skillpoints invested using NOS. I dont speak here, about loosing a ship. I speak here about a module, which is much more supirior than any DPS you can field. This already hold true on TQ for anything smaller a BS or non Caldari/Minmatar. BS aint THAT valunable to NOS, because heavy injector and hugh CAP to start with. But anything else is dry in few cycles. Because of slot and PG limitation you CANT fit everytime a cap injector. fitting a NOS is much easier and helps also your CAP/Tank. Not been able to Tank is fine. But sitting there for 5 min seein your ship get ripped by 15 DPS makes me sad. Its like a module which deactivates your Keyboard once fired. How is that a game, if you cant play? You cant MWD out of range, because of no cap. Most ships cant shoot back or use any module. How about a low/medslot module, which decrease the effectiveness to NOS against you. Like hardeners do for DPS. If you flew an ishtar you would have won i'd assume... we all know the deimos doesnt generally tank that well, its all about gank, so kudos to him for correctly assuming this and killing you. "Not been able to Tank is fine. But sitting there for 5 min seein your ship get ripped by 15 DPS makes me sad." He's right. We should definately up drone damage to make nos ships more effective. "How about a low/medslot module, which decrease the effectiveness to NOS against you. Like hardeners do for DPS." I support this idea. More slots spent on anti nos, less slots spent on tank and gank. Im not going to look at whats wrong with the rest of it... have you tried putting nos on a deimos? 2 med nos 3 small blasters and drones will give you a better tank than med blasters will and you might be suprised at what you can kill... as terrible a setup as it might sound.
Sally Caldari R.u.S.H. Red Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.12 12:13:00 - [47] Originally by: Grey Area No need. To fit the new modules, players will have to take off their three ballistic controls...this in itself will reduce the damage. Its not enouth. Quote: Do you actually PLAY this game? If so you will know that stacking rules make any module after the third give zero increase. Turrets aren't balanced thinking of 5 trackin subroutines in low slots and mid slots full of tracking comps. if they are, when you switch out for damage mods instead, turrets would be way overpowered. Turrets arent. But missiles also is balanced without any addiditional "tracking" mods installed. And lets me say it, they are much better in that than turrets. So to add missile "tracking" module to game we must first nerf missiles to maintain balance. Quote: Originally by: Sally 3. The original poster problem will be solved. I hate to soudn liek a teenager, but...yeah, right. MISSILES and TURRETS should be balanced for DPS BEFORE taking any support modules OR skills into account. Then both systems should have access to an EQUAL range of modules and skills to adjust that damage ouput, according to their CHOICE. If missiles and turrets both did 500 DPS, but I have a module that increases it by 5%, and so do you, that is balanced. If I instead choose to fit a module that reduces it by 5% against larger, but increases it by 10% against smaller targets...it's still BALANCED, it's just that I chose to fit DIFFERENTLY...you should ALSO have a module that does the same (in fact, your tracking computer does NOT penalise you against larger targets...and yet everyone here is saying that any simliar module for missiles SHOULD ) Ah yes, and while we at it, make so what BS turret will hit another BS 100% of the time no matter what the other BS speed, from 0 to 50 km range at least. Then add another 30 types of different ammo so we could choose damage type. And then let the laser and blasters fire without cap use. Well, if all that goes live, i have nothing against missiles DPS "balancing" with turrets. -- Stories: #1 --
Bentula	Posted - 2006.11.12 12:59:00 - [48] Best way to nerf nos is a stronger use of ships uneffected by it. The hp boost will make passive tanking more popular, and not all passive tanks can be broken by drones alone especially if your enemy starts shooting your drones with his capless weapons, sure you can play the in and out with drones to keep your shields up but it costs you dps and any small armor damage will add up. I had some fun fights on sisi against nos ships, especially the hurricane(i had some success with the drake too) can waste heavy drones like nobodys buisness. And after the drones are dead whatever guns are left besides the nos/neuts usually where not enough to finish me. Only problem was that i obviously had no cap to hold the enemy down, but still it would be rather expensive loosing lots of t2 drones on tranq, not to mention having to resupply. So yeah drones + nos screw over gallente and amarr ships pretty bad, but caldari or minmatar ships get the time to use their greater dps with the new hp values. And like someone else already said it takes a very very long time to kill stuff with the new hp values.

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