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Kheid
Republic Of Pew
Garys Most Noble Army of Third Place Mediocrity
0
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Posted - 2015.05.11 23:05:28 -
[1] - Quote
Since (for armor) applying more plates or just plates at all doesn't effect the rep amount in any way how does it balance out for using them on a ship that is say dual repped like a solo zealot? Wouldn't it be more ideal to put on another resist mod or maybe cap regen? A nano even? Armor amount doesn't benefit a ship like shield does I just personally find it a bit silly in a controlled solo situation where you can pick and choose your battles to have buffer on when you have armor reps unless you're anticipating taking more damage than you can initially rep in which case it wouldn't be ideal to take the fight in the first place. |
Lew Dicrous
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
22
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Posted - 2015.05.11 23:21:56 -
[2] - Quote
It doesn't.
Yes.
ikr?
It burns when I PVP
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Eldwinn
V.O.I.D.
Shadow Cartel
299
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Posted - 2015.05.11 23:51:03 -
[3] - Quote
Kheid wrote:Since (for armor) applying more plates or just plates at all doesn't effect the rep amount in any way how does it balance out for using them on a ship that is say dual repped like a solo zealot? Wouldn't it be more ideal to put on another resist mod or maybe cap regen? A nano even? Armor amount doesn't benefit a ship like shield does I just personally find it a bit silly in a controlled solo situation where you can pick and choose your battles to have buffer on when you have armor reps unless you're anticipating taking more damage than you can initially rep in which case it wouldn't be ideal to take the fight in the first place.
About 98% of the time you want to never mix active and passive tanking. The other 2% are rare cases. For example, having a double plated pilgrim with a mobile depo to flip into a medium rep. Just so you can rep the gate guns, are out of range of triage, and just so happen to have no repping legions to bridge to your cyno. Tl;dr it basically never happens.
As for resists, of course. Nano on an armor ship? |
Kashadin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
14
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Posted - 2015.05.12 00:18:33 -
[4] - Quote
Having a higher resist profile is always a plus for both active and buffer tanking.
But, you can't really mix active and buffer tanking very well. The reason is that you lose some of you chose between the 3 when it comes to slots, higher resist profile, higher buffer (or at least more extenders/plates), or more reps/cap recharge mods. It is almost always a better idea to mix higher resist with one of the other two because the resist makes your tank that more efficient where as adding in a repper does nothing for your buffer and adding in a plate does nothing for your rep cycles.
And while buffer has the nice ability to ignore cap pressure (at least for armor) if you don't have logi then you have to worry about the DPS race between you and your target.
And while active has a better chance to win out over someone in a DPS race you are more in danger from neuts, but you don't get as much from having logi as a buffer.
As far as putting a nano on a armor ship, it's not really worth it. The slot would be better used to put in something to help with your tank than trying to counter some of what the plate did. That and most ships that run with plates don't worry as much about maneuverability. They are going to want to latch onto the target and keep at optimal, which is almost always low speed up close and personal. |
WASPY69
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
391
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Posted - 2015.05.12 00:37:23 -
[5] - Quote
Mixing active tank with buffer tank works in some scenarios. Generally it's a bad idea since you rep MORE with resists as opposed to buffer.
That might sound ******** at first, but think about it. Let's do an imaginary scenario.
If you rep say 400 HP per cycle, and have a 50% EM resist, and get hit with a pure EM 1000 damage volley. And for simplicity's sake your cycle time matches the gun cycle time exactly.
Your enemy would hit you for 500 volley damage, and eventually chew through your buffer by 100 raw hp per cycle. It would be a drawn out fight but assuming he could tank you indefinitely, he'd win.
Now, assuming you had a 75% EM resist, with same rep amount as above and got hit for the same amount. you would only take 250 volley damage and tank a surplus of 150 raw hp per rep cycle.
And hence higher resists are always preferable in most situations as opposed to more buffer. Same for fleets where you have logi.
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Jenshae Chiroptera
1493
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Posted - 2015.05.12 01:04:24 -
[6] - Quote
I love the guys that have fleet like buffer for gang like groups, almost no resists and then behave like they are all solo while together.
Triple 1600 plates and short range with an afterburner for that extra added hit nothing fit.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
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High Sec needs a stepping stone to other areas of space, where they can grow
Fozzie is treating a symptom.
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Kashadin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
14
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Posted - 2015.05.12 01:11:57 -
[7] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:I love the guys that have fleet like buffer for gang like groups, almost no resists and then behave like they are all solo while together.
Triple 1600 plates and short range with an afterburner for that extra added hit nothing fit.
What are you talking about? |
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
Love Squad
Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
1686
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Posted - 2015.05.12 02:00:49 -
[8] - Quote
The only real exception to this is on some frigate fits. If a ship has the cap for an active tank but very little buffer, it can be effective to fit a plate over a resist module. In this instance you will rep for less, but the enemy won't be able to alpha through your active tank. I've only seen this done on the tormentor and incursus, and the incursus fit was awful.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
1115
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Posted - 2015.05.12 02:15:48 -
[9] - Quote
it depends, a dual rep cruiser has so little buffer I'd be worried about getting volleyed, plus the cap is so sensitive I'd be worried about that too. but you do have some ability to pick fights, so that helps. although I'm not sure a plate is going to help in those situations. if anything it might reduce your ability to gtfo.
for fleet I'd probably try and max buffer/resists and rely on logi. Solo max out on speed/projection/dps.
I had a few buffer + rep fits years ago as I was almost always flying in small gangs and taking gate gun fire, so I wanted something to be able to rep up in space without having to dock, and we didn't have logi. These days I don't know that I would use those fits anymore. plus the whole impact of gang links, which might change things a bit as they stack.
@ChainsawPlankto
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Mr Grape Drink
Sugar - Water - Purple
16
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Posted - 2015.05.12 02:25:28 -
[10] - Quote
I like it for being frig tackle in a fleet especially mixing an asb with an extender. Tank a ton of damage and not get one shot while you hold out for 30 seconds for the heavier tackle. Mmmm Jag |
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Ruby Actault
Ireco Industries
Zombie Pony Express
1
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Posted - 2015.05.12 02:31:06 -
[11] - Quote
Most ships should pick one or the other, but some smaller ships it helps to have both since armor reppers are somewhat slow, and armor ships being slower in general have less ability to pick and choose fights. It really works best for HACs /Recon / Faction Cruisers that already have improved resists and are expecting to fight above their weight w/ no logistics. |
ISD Supogo
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
490
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Posted - 2015.05.12 02:56:56 -
[12] - Quote
Thread has been moved to Ships & Modules.
ISD Supogo
Lieutenant Commander
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Ares Desideratus
Star Children Of Cain
233
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Posted - 2015.05.12 03:21:12 -
[13] - Quote
Usually it's better to just go all active or all buffer. Sometimes you can mix but it's on you to figure that **** out.
YES you can put a nano on an active armor tanking ship, they work extremely well actually.
enjoy every moment or some one else will enjoy it for you
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Ares Desideratus
Star Children Of Cain
233
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Posted - 2015.05.12 03:22:49 -
[14] - Quote
Kashadin wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:I love the guys that have fleet like buffer for gang like groups, almost no resists and then behave like they are all solo while together.
Triple 1600 plates and short range with an afterburner for that extra added hit nothing fit. What are you talking about?
No idea what you are talking about
enjoy every moment or some one else will enjoy it for you
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Iyokus Patrouette
Sudden Buggery
Prolapse.
462
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Posted - 2015.05.12 03:40:21 -
[15] - Quote
Buffer fits are usually for fleet work when you have logistics to rep you.
Active Rep fits are usually for solo work when you are on your own.
as always there are exceptions and reasons not to folow the general guideline. for example an ancillary armour repper can be thought of as just extra buffer that doesn't slow you down more, so a plate and ancillary repper can be a viable choice.
a hull tanked ship can run an ancillary armour repper to bait harder by making the thing look armour tanked instead of hull tanked, making the enemy stay on grid thinking they're winning. 
---- Advocate for the initiation of purple coloured wormholes----
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Traejun DiSanctis
Astro Technologies
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
112
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Posted - 2015.05.12 05:55:32 -
[16] - Quote
Iyokus Patrouette wrote:a hull tanked ship can run an ancillary armour repper to bait harder by making the thing look armour tanked instead of hull tanked, making the enemy stay on grid thinking they're winning.
Interesting concept. Might give it a whirl. |
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
400
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Posted - 2015.05.12 07:41:09 -
[17] - Quote
Buffer gives you time.
Even on an active tanked ship that time may be important - time to reload paste in your AAR, time to hunt around the field for booster charges, to burn down something your rep can't handle or simply to save the booster while you close with that neuting ship...
It is not always the best option but neither is it always the worst. Resists might allow you to rep more incoming fire but you're faced with diminishing returns and once you have a DCII and a couple of EANMs, other than perhaps plugging the explosive hole, what more might you add? Of course you might be better with another magstab/heat sink/gyro/bcu (or particularly a DDA, before these were added the choice of what to fill an active Domi's lows with was much easier).
This is not even considering the more obviously "hybrid" ships - ships which fight on their buffer and carry an active component just to rep between fights (I used to have a rifter fit which relied on a plate (I think a 400mm) and an offline rep - warp to safe after a fight, online the rep and be ready for the next fight - and a friend swore by a rifter fit with a civilian repper). |
Arla Sarain
445
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Posted - 2015.05.12 09:02:07 -
[18] - Quote
On a ship with few slots, like on a frig, getting a resistance mod won't help a lot. Having a buffer and active will add more EHP over time than the resist mod. |
Switch Savage
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
81
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Posted - 2015.05.12 09:21:50 -
[19] - Quote
As already mentioned there are some rare cases where the low buffer on a ship you wish to active tank, can be offset with a plate to great effect.
One good example of this is the bait Exequror. It has measly 1750 armour and most people who fly this fine vessel will opt to enhance its already low signature, to ensure you do not bleed into structure with a dual rep setup. I choose to go the opposite route and fit an 800mm plate alongside the dual rep.
With mid-grade slaves it has 26k ehp. This allows you to dip very low armour and give the impression you are buffer fit before applying reps and sealing the fate of whatever poor soul you have snared. There are other good examples, but as a minimum of 6 low slots is required to pull this off comfortably with armour, there are not many. |
WASPY69
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
391
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Posted - 2015.05.12 17:26:18 -
[20] - Quote
Jacob Holland wrote:(I used to have a rifter fit which relied on a plate (I think a 400mm) and an offline rep - warp to safe after a fight, online the rep and be ready for the next fight - and a friend swore by a rifter fit with a civilian repper).
That's quite possibly the dumbest thing I've heard all week. You might as well sacrifice a mid slot to fit a hull rep, you know, since repair facilities in stations are so rare.. smh.
If you HAVE to rep in space, just bring a depot in your cargo along with the rep. My advice is stop being so dumb poor and just use repair facilities. I swear, some EVE players....
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Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
402
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Posted - 2015.05.14 06:36:58 -
[21] - Quote
WASPY69 wrote:
If you HAVE to rep in space, just bring a depot in your cargo along with the rep.
Apologies, I didn't give enough sense of time - when I say "used to" I meant when the Rifter was good.
Mobile Depots didn't exist at the time and to fit a "real" repper online meant downgrading the plate (if it was a 400mm plate then dropping down to a 200mm) and that meant a very different ship. |
W0lf Crendraven
Welfcorp
293
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Posted - 2015.05.14 08:30:12 -
[22] - Quote
To stop alpha or if it gets more ehp then the extra ehp you get from the mod in itself and the extra reps your rep woud give you. |
God's Apples
Genos Occidere
Warlords of the Deep
605
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Posted - 2015.05.15 02:26:04 -
[23] - Quote
Buffer + ancil reps works very well. For example if you are flying in a small nano gang with no logi you may be faced with high incoming damage for a short period of time before you pull range or warp off. A normal nano cruiser would get volleyed off the field. However, a buffer + AAR/XLASB cruiser is going to survive by repping across its larger buffer.
For example, for solo you may want a nomen with a nano because speed is life as a solo ship and the faster you go the more likely you will be to pop an inty before it rams you. However, when flying in a 5 man gang you may want to fit an 800mm plate in place of the nano so that if you face high incoming damage such as from an ishtar or t3 BC you are not immediately forced off the field and are still able to carry out your role as frigate killer.
Fitting buffer also works very well for XLASB cruisers. For many cruisers simply running a heated XLASB with blue pill will rep to close to 100% shields. This is bad because you either over rep wasting asb charges or you bleed armor/hull. In this case a LSE + XLASB is a very good option. The LSE also gives you the potential to stay on grid through the XLASB reload. XLASBs and LSEs have very good synergy on cruisers. The gila and the orthrus are very common examples of ships that fit XLASB + LSE to great effect.
Finally, if you are bait tanking a ship buffer + reps is a good idea. Bait ships need to hold the enemy down for your gang to get on the target, and will thus take a lot of damage. This damage is probably more than a cheap bait ship can rep through with a simple active tank. On a bait vexor you can fit 1600 plate, MAR, AAR, EANM, and DCU in the low slots with as many trimarks in the rigs as possible. This gives you over 30k ehp along with ~500 dps tank with exile for about a minute. This is a much better alternative to a pure buffer vexor which has 40k ehp with no rep ability or a dual rep vexor which can tank 600 - 700 dps but has no buffer.
"Hydra Reloaded are just jealous / butthurt on me / us because we can get tons of PVP action in empire while they aren't good enough to get that." - NightmareX
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Syrias Bizniz
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
401
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Posted - 2015.05.17 11:04:52 -
[24] - Quote
When looking at active armor tanks, it pretty much depends on what you want to do with your ship.
For example, i used to fly an Arbitrator in FW and aim for dps heavy turret cruisers.
The goal was to get on top of them, tackle them, get under their guns as good as i can, and then tank their measly dps that's left.
While an empty AAR was plenty enough to tank them after i got into my honeyspot, the heated, charged AAR was heavily outdps'd during my approach. As such, i had to use a 800mm Plate to complement my EHP.
It worked like a charm.
Conclusion: If you expect to take some heavy, heavy dps your repper can't withstand that will however drop down to absolutely manageable amounts, a plate might be a thing for you.
Same for Shields, of course, however you have the option of ASBs here which kinda perform like a mixture of a buffer and an active module already.
Another case where buffer + active might work well is when you know you're going up against rapid launchers. Your active + Buffer combination will be able to withstand the ultra high applied DPS of rapid launchers, and you will be able to comfotably rep up again in his reload window. |
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