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Now that SBA II are out...

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Shadowsword Gallente COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2006.11.11 18:05:00 - [1] Edited by: Shadowsword on 11/11/2006 18:07:56 Let's update a little the old shield vs armor tanking debate. Tank 1: 1 XL shield booster II 1 Shield boost amplifier II Tank 2: 2 Large armor repairers II - HP boosted per second: Tank 1: 6001.36/5 = 163.2 HP/sec Tank 2: 8002/11.25 = 142.2 HP/sec - Cap efficiency: Tank 1: 1.5/1.36*1.10 = 2.24 HP per cap Tank 2: 2 HP per cap Others advantages in favor of shield tanks: - Boost at the beggining of the cycle - Natural shield recharge (easily 20-25 HP/sec at it's peak on a Raven with 3-4 PDU II) - Invul fields II giving better resists than armor tanks. - Ships that normally shield tank tend to use cap-less weapons, giving them a HUGE advantage for sustainability. advantages favoring armor tanks: - armor plates arguably better than shield extenders. - better native resists, however 2-3 invul fields II tend to reverse that. - Less dependant on activation micro-managment (handy in laggy environments) - tanking modules don't get in the way of propulsion/tackling modules. That's the facts. Now, I'm not going to scream to nerf, but I think an armor compensation skill is needed to put things more in balance. ------------------------------------------ Nuhwall: Why are some Amarr ships warping backward? Shadowsword: whatever happen, if they need to flee they can honestly say the faced the enemy.
Cmdr Sy Appetite 4 Destruction	Posted - 2006.11.11 18:21:00 - [2] WTB - Armor Repair Amplifier II
Ather Ialeas Amarr Karjala Inc. Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.11 18:27:00 - [3] Speaking of SBA II, did the price of those things crash already and how it's affecting the faction SBA:s?
blablal School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2006.11.11 18:27:00 - [4] Edited by: blablal on 11/11/2006 18:27:23 nm
Takahashi Chiaki hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.11.11 18:28:00 - [5] Originally by: Shadowsword That's the facts. Now, I'm not going to scream to nerf, but I think an armor compensation skill is needed to put things more in balance. /signed.. and that's a first with you making the thread.
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.11.11 18:29:00 - [6] I've already tried to start a discussion on the matter (Linkage) with the end result being that nobody seems to care. My personal balancing solution: If CCP is introducing new T2 stuff for the hell of it, can armor tankers get their Large 'Reprieve' Vestment Reconstructer II? 2xLRVR II: 1920 armor/11.25 sec * 2 = 170.7 armor/sec 400 cap/11.25 sec * 2 = 71.1 cap/sec => 2.4 armor/cap XL Booster 2 and SBA 2: 600 shield/5 sec * 1.36 = 163.2 shield/sec 400 cap/5 sec * 0.9 = 72 cap/sec => 2.27 shield/cap Is that balanced? It honestly looks closer to being balanced than shields and armor are now with the introduction of the SBA 2 (2xLRVR 2s would repair 4.6% faster and 5.7% more efficiently than the XL 2/SBA 2 combination (with the disadvantage of the repairing occuring at the end of the cycle) compared to the XL 2/SBA 2 combination repairing 15% faster and 13% more efficiently than 2xLAR 2s). (I even have a nice large armor rep bpo that CCP can convert to a LRVR 2 bpo at their leisure).
Thor Xian Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2006.11.11 18:33:00 - [7] I want my low slot warp scramblers please. ~Thor Xian, Material Defender What is your opinion?
Kunming Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.11 18:38:00 - [8] Agreed on everything except: How are armor plates better than shield extenders? Large shield extender uses less PG than 800mm plate Large shield extender gives more HP than 800mm plate Large shield extender gives passive recharge, 800mm and armor in general have no passive tanking option The only downside is there is no XL shield extender like there is a 1600mm plate. When shield extenders on my brutix are more efficient than dual rep tank then there is a problem I guess, I dont even have good shield skills while I have maxed armor skills. And this is not on KALI but currently on TQ! With KALI passive shield tanks + projectiles/missiles(especially HAMs)/drones will be flavour of the month, well it KALI comes on TQ at its current state that is, and I'm not gonna wait another 6 months for them to fix pvp balance, Tuxford has showed me that he is unable to do the job and CCP has no replacement for him it seems.
Shadowsword Gallente COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2006.11.11 18:39:00 - [9] Originally by: Ather Ialeas Speaking of SBA II, did the price of those things crash already and how it's affecting the faction SBA:s? Production of those hasen't really started yet, but you can bet that those 35.5% gist-C SBA I saw at 50 millions on escrow are going to take a beating. The only thing that 's going to slow down sales is a rank 3 lv5 skill requirment. ------------------------------------------ Nuhwall: Why are some Amarr ships warping backward? Shadowsword: whatever happen, if they need to flee they can honestly say the faced the enemy.
Kunming Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.11 18:40:00 - [10] Originally by: Thor Xian I want my low slot warp scramblers please. You got the crow, the best ceptor out there, and the flycatcher the second best dictor and uber range and uber EW and uber tank and no-cap usage and immunity to ECM/RSD with FoFs.. STFU and embrace the NERF!

Thor Xian Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2006.11.11 18:41:00 - [11] Originally by: Kunming Originally by: Thor Xian I want my low slot warp scramblers please. You got the crow, the best ceptor out there, and the flycatcher the second best dictor and uber range and uber EW and uber tank and no-cap usage and immunity to ECM/RSD with FoFs.. STFU and embrace the NERF! I have Caldari Frigate to Lvl one and that is only because this character is Caldari. Minmatar ftw. ~Thor Xian, Material Defender What is your opinion?
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.11.11 18:41:00 - [12] Originally by: Thor Xian I want my low slot warp scramblers please. And armor tankers want medium slot damage mods... and shiled tankers low slot ecms... and armor tankers medium slot damage control units... and shield tanks low slot propulsion mods... and armor tankers medium slot warp core stabs... and shield tankers low slot webs... and armor tankers medium slot nanofibers... and so on and so forth. It becomes a pretty pointless argument since both slots have their good modules which everyone wants to use. Admittedly medium slots were better than low slots due to ecm, but with ecm's reduced effecitiveness in Kali medium slots and low slots are pretty balanced.
XGS Crimson	Posted - 2006.11.11 18:45:00 - [13] to put it bluntley... sheild > armour go CCP go... overpower the already overpowerd race to make it more i win than anyone else! Originally by: Aramendel A harderner also only works against ships firing on you. ECM is effeciently a harderner for your whole gang/fleet.
Shadowsword Gallente COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2006.11.11 18:45:00 - [14] Originally by: Kunming How are armor plates better than shield extenders? It can be argued both ways, because it depend of what you're doing with it: For fleet battles, plates are flat out better. They also fit on low slot, with are less critical for yout fit than mid slots, and I think that more than balance out they higher fitting requirment. But for NPC or specific passive tanking, extenders sure are better. ------------------------------------------ Nuhwall: Why are some Amarr ships warping backward? Shadowsword: whatever happen, if they need to flee they can honestly say the faced the enemy.
Athanasios Anastasiou Elite Storm Enterprises Storm Armada	Posted - 2006.11.11 19:00:00 - [15] I also notice that you forgot to mention that armor has higher natural resists then shield. If you want balance, then let shield tankers get our version of ENAM that goes in a low slot. I'm sure many of us will be very glad for the trade.
Majin82 Caldari g guild	Posted - 2006.11.11 19:02:00 - [16] Am I the only 1 who is noticing the fact that you are comparing 2 Shield mods to 1 Armor mod. By your logic something that takes up 2 mid slots slots vs 1 low slot should not be better. Shields are not armor... ------------------------------------- Proud member of G Guild!
Shadowsword Gallente COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2006.11.11 19:05:00 - [17] Originally by: Majin82 Am I the only 1 who is noticing the fact that you are comparing 2 Shield mods to 1 Armor mod. By your logic something that takes up 2 mid slots slots vs 1 low slot should not be better. Shields are not armor... You should read more carefully, then... ------------------------------------------ Nuhwall: Why are some Amarr ships warping backward? Shadowsword: whatever happen, if they need to flee they can honestly say the faced the enemy.
Siakel	Posted - 2006.11.11 19:07:00 - [18] Originally by: Athanasios Anastasiou I also notice that you forgot to mention that armor has higher natural resists then shield. If you want balance, then let shield tankers get our version of ENAM that goes in a low slot. I'm sure many of us will be very glad for the trade. Originally by: Shadowsword better native resists Read the post before responding, FFS. And I'm sure armor tankers would be glad for midslot damage mods/WCS/etc, but it's not going to happen. They are two different tanking modes, and on larger ships, shield tanking is usually better, and you can fit a full tank+full gank, at the cost of not being able to solo effectively and/or fit Sensorboosters, scrams/webs, etc.
Ather Ialeas Amarr Karjala Inc. Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.11 19:37:00 - [19] Originally by: Shadowsword Originally by: Ather Ialeas Speaking of SBA II, did the price of those things crash already and how it's affecting the faction SBA:s? Production of those hasen't really started yet, but you can bet that those 35.5% gist-C SBA I saw at 50 millions on escrow are going to take a beating. The reason I asked the faction SBA thing is because I'm currently sitting on one Dread Guristas SBA (37,5%) and I'm trying to decide whether or not it's worth selling anymore...
Gripen Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.11.11 21:58:00 - [20] Originally by: Azerrad InExile And armor tankers want medium slot damage mods... and shiled tankers low slot ecms... and armor tankers medium slot damage control units... and shield tanks low slot propulsion mods... and armor tankers medium slot warp core stabs... and shield tankers low slot webs... and armor tankers medium slot nanofibers... and so on and so forth. Yeah... But 90% of ships in PvP use armor tank. And we have this forum flooded with amarr screaming for boost to their weapons because they can't break EANM tanks while real problem is lack of balance between shield and armor tanking. Shield Booster + T2 Invul. Field was better than Shield Booster + Boost Amp. and it's still better then T2 SBA came out. So no real change here and armor tanking will still be more popular.

Tasty Burger	Posted - 2006.11.11 22:23:00 - [21] You're all forgetting that the only ship that can fit an xl2 and even a t1 SBA with a reasonable setup is the raven. And BS setups do not filter down to smaller ships. Unit for unit, with max skills, reps of the same size both repair more per second and use less cap per second, than the equivalent shield booster. Plus shield uses midslots which are only available on caldari ships. Armor tanking is simply a better choice, tactically too as you can repair armor in a safespot. - It's great being Minmatar, ain't it?
Robet Katrix Beagle Corp	Posted - 2006.11.11 22:38:00 - [22] could you please also add to the list that ANY TANK, almost without exception running an XL2 and a SBA2 is going to need at least 1 co-pro. i cannot run an XL2 currently without one. and the t2 sba as it stands is 20more cpu pressure on my cpu.
Shadowsword Gallente COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2006.11.12 00:21:00 - [23] Originally by: Robet Katrix could you please also add to the list that ANY TANK, almost without exception running an XL2 and a SBA2 is going to need at least 1 co-pro. i cannot run an XL2 currently without one. and the t2 sba as it stands is 20more cpu pressure on my cpu. Change some of your torp launchers for cruise launchers, problem solved. ------------------------------------------ Nuhwall: Why are some Amarr ships warping backward? Shadowsword: whatever happen, if they need to flee they can honestly say the faced the enemy.
XGS Crimson	Posted - 2006.11.12 00:26:00 - [24] claymore + amp and booster = the uberest boosting ever Originally by: Aramendel A harderner also only works against ships firing on you. ECM is effeciently a harderner for your whole gang/fleet.
Arbenowskee Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.12 00:35:00 - [25] Originally by: Shadowsword Originally by: Robet Katrix could you please also add to the list that ANY TANK, almost without exception running an XL2 and a SBA2 is going to need at least 1 co-pro. i cannot run an XL2 currently without one. and the t2 sba as it stands is 20more cpu pressure on my cpu. Change some of your torp launchers for cruise launchers, problem solved. but if u want to dish some dmg worth mentioning (and not just farting at your target) u need 2 or 3 ballistic controls II on low... and they eat up ALOT of CPU. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sig too large. Maximum size 400x120 and 24000 bytes. -Oiri Yusko
Audri Fisher Caldari The Keep THE R0CK	Posted - 2006.11.12 01:15:00 - [26] I can fit a XL shield booster II on a ferox. so it is not impossible. It is just not viable becuase you need so many cap injectors you end up with just native resist. Just like caldari gunboats have to cram PG upgrades so they don't have 1/3 of there highslots empty with some semblance (read: a shield booster + injector ) of a tank, Caldari missle boats have to cram the co-procs on.
Brucette	Posted - 2006.11.12 04:05:00 - [27] Originally by: Kunming Agreed on everything except: How are armor plates better than shield extenders? Large shield extender uses less PG than 800mm plate Large shield extender gives more HP than 800mm plate Large shield extender gives passive recharge, 800mm and armor in general have no passive tanking option The only downside is there is no XL shield extender like there is a 1600mm plate. When shield extenders on my brutix are more efficient than dual rep tank then there is a problem I guess, I dont even have good shield skills while I have maxed armor skills. And this is not on KALI but currently on TQ! With KALI passive shield tanks + projectiles/missiles(especially HAMs)/drones will be flavour of the month, well it KALI comes on TQ at its current state that is, and I'm not gonna wait another 6 months for them to fix pvp balance, Tuxford has showed me that he is unable to do the job and CCP has no replacement for him it seems. You should compare Large Shield Extenders with 1600mmm plate.
Viictoria	Posted - 2006.11.12 04:31:00 - [28] You forgot something: Low slots full of armor tanking mods: Great tank, can still kill stuff. Mid slots filled with shield tanking mods: Great tank... oops, can't kill anything with a brain (see: most players). Balanced, IMO.
Shadowsword Gallente COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2006.11.12 09:52:00 - [29] Originally by: Viictoria You forgot something: Low slots full of armor tanking mods: Great tank, can still kill stuff. Mid slots filled with shield tanking mods: Great tank... oops, can't kill anything with a brain (see: most players). Balanced, IMO. I seem to remember memtionning just that, so no, I didn't forgot. ------------------------------------------ Nuhwall: Why are some Amarr ships warping backward? Shadowsword: whatever happen, if they need to flee they can honestly say the faced the enemy.
Shadowsword Gallente COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2006.11.12 09:55:00 - [30] Originally by: Arbenowskee but if u want to dish some dmg worth mentioning (and not just farting at your target) u need 2 or 3 ballistic controls II on low... and they eat up ALOT of CPU. Easily doable, if you replace one or two heavy NOS with a small gun. Don't like that? You shouldn't be able to have great tank, good dps, and NOS capacity at the same time... ------------------------------------------ Nuhwall: Why are some Amarr ships warping backward? Shadowsword: whatever happen, if they need to flee they can honestly say the faced the enemy.



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