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Cmdr Sy
Appetite 4 Destruction
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Posted - 2006.11.12 03:17:00 -
[1]
A relatively straightforward question, I hope.
Is a small-scale fight still going to reach a conclusion within 4 minutes?
If you speed up the action 2x, is the war of attrition still going to be unbearably slow?
Just wondering.
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Lenaria
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.12 06:56:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Lenaria on 12/11/2006 06:58:17
Edited by: Lenaria on 12/11/2006 06:57:57
I have killed tanked & plated dominix on SiSI in my blasterthron in less than 1 min. So its not THAT bad... All these tales about 30-min duels are just, well, myths. 50% hitpoint increase is after all only 50%, and only HP. So if now on TQ we generally dont see a 30-min duels, we will also not see it after Kali. In fact, 90% fights will be done in 1 min, just like now in TQ.
What is really good - is Capital ship HP increase. Now you wouldnt see a 10 dreads going pop in 5 mins under the fire of just 30 BS gang.
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murder one
Gallente
CRICE Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.12 07:23:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Lenaria
Edited by: Lenaria on 12/11/2006 06:58:17
Edited by: Lenaria on 12/11/2006 06:57:57
I have killed tanked & plated dominix on SiSI in my blasterthron in less than 1 min. So its not THAT bad... All these tales about 30-min duels are just, well, myths. 50% hitpoint increase is after all only 50%, and only HP. So if now on TQ we generally dont see a 30-min duels, we will also not see it after Kali. In fact, 90% fights will be done in 1 min, just like now in TQ.
What is really good - is Capital ship HP increase. Now you wouldnt see a 10 dreads going pop in 5 mins under the fire of just 30 BS gang.
LOL. I have a buddy rendering a video right now that refutes this entirely. I think they just stopped the fight after 30-40 min due to him running out of hard drive space for his fraps footage.
It should be out sometime next week when he gets done rendering the whole 2GB vid (ya, 2gb compressed, due to it's LENGTH). I'm sure he'll make an edited one thats a more reasonable 100mb or something however.
Because I said so...
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Ishina Fel
Caldari
Synergy.
Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.11.12 08:30:00 -
[4]
I'm sure it's entirely possible to fit two ships in a matter that they can't kill each other for demonstration purposes 
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Schlauke
Gallente
Zooner Corp
G.U.A.R.D.
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Posted - 2006.11.12 09:01:00 -
[5]
Fights lasting this long is a result of both ships being able to compensate the damage by means of armor repairs and shield boosters. If you can compensate the damage it does not matter if you have 8000 Hitpoints or 12000 Hitpoints.
I had an Assault Frigatte duel a few months ago that would have lasted "forever", because we could not break each others tank!
Greetings Schlauke
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murder one
Gallente
CRICE Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.12 10:41:00 -
[6]
You're missing the point (as usual). The fights are taking to F#CKING LONG. And it's a matter of who has more cap charges and more nos fitted, not who can fight better.
Because I said so...
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DeadDuck
Omega Enterprises
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.12 10:44:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Ishina Fel
I'm sure it's entirely possible to fit two ships in a matter that they can't kill each other for demonstration purposes
I was thinking in some civilian gatling lasers 
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Segmentor
Hunters Agency
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.11.12 10:49:00 -
[8]
But really, all the fights are coming down to who has more cap boosters/nos fitted. This is just too stupid... I want the old HP back...
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DeadDuck
Omega Enterprises
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.12 10:50:00 -
[9]
Originally by: murder one
You're missing the point (as usual). The fights are taking to F#CKING LONG. And it's a matter of who has more cap charges and more nos fitted, not who can fight better.
Trust me with NOS setups combat will take ages ... and tbh if you go to combat with a nos setup you are crazy, even if you drain the other guy ship it will take you a LOT of time to kill it. Might work on Singularity because you are dueling ... in tranquility will be your doom, help tends to be handy in there.
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Khan Soriano
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2006.11.12 13:42:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Khan Soriano on 12/11/2006 13:43:05
ppl spit such obvious bullcrap its not even funny anymore.
30min fight on SISI?? think about it braniac, hp went 50% so before Kali this fight would last 20min (not counting non-tankable hp so in reality this boost is even slighter), that is acceptable?
Sure it is, because your friend was an even bigger idiot&noob than you are and couldnt properly fit a ship!!! Right now i can enter TQ fit an uber tank on punisher (plated to hell so no pg for decent weapons) take a friend to do the same and pound each others for 2h straight. Does that call for a nerf????? By your logic we all should have 100hp just because some idiot cant figure out the balance between a decent tank and being able to do some damage.
Tanking didnt change!!! 50% is just a slight boost so MY targets dont die in 15seconds!!!
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Lisento Slaven
Amarr
The Drekla Consortium
Kurai Komichi
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Posted - 2006.11.12 15:56:00 -
[11]
I have a whole corp full of corp members ready to "watch me duel" on Tranq.
If you hear me preach about Ted Danson it's safe to say they're going to interfere and kill you.
There is no 1 v 1 on EVE =P
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Lisento Slaven wants to be a Space Whaler in EVE.
Put in space whales!
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Malicious Wraith
The Dark Side of the Moon
Edge of Sanity
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Posted - 2006.11.12 17:47:00 -
[12]
I have to agree with Murder One, only this *once*.
I dont like longer fights.
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Matrix Aran
Legio Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.11.12 17:50:00 -
[13]
30 min duels are a joke. More hitpoints does not allow you to last any easier for 30 mins than before. Pasive shield recharge got a huge nerf with the hitpoint boost, so that is a mute point. It will allways come down to how much damage you can rep vs. how much damage he can put out. Hitpoint as my old teacher used to tell me are just for looking cool.
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Domalais
Equilibrium LLC
United Confederation of Corporations
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Posted - 2006.11.12 18:20:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Matrix Aran
30 min duels are a joke. More hitpoints does not allow you to last any easier for 30 mins than before. Pasive shield recharge got a huge nerf with the hitpoint boost, so that is a mute point. It will allways come down to how much damage you can rep vs. how much damage he can put out. Hitpoint as my old teacher used to tell me are just for looking cool.
Originally by: Domalais
The problem is that 50% hitpoint boost does not = 50% longer combat. This occurs because the fundamental balance of power between modules has been changed (ruined). With the substantial increase in the usefulness of nos/neuts, more ships are running them. This decreases the dmg output of these ships with a realistic fitting.
50% hitpoint increase + 50% damage decrease = 250%+ longer fights
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Domalais
Equilibrium LLC
United Confederation of Corporations
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Posted - 2006.11.12 18:22:00 -
[15]
Originally by: DeadDuck
Originally by: murder one
You're missing the point (as usual). The fights are taking to F#CKING LONG. And it's a matter of who has more cap charges and more nos fitted, not who can fight better.
Trust me with NOS setups combat will take ages ... and tbh if you go to combat with a nos setup you are crazy, even if you drain the other guy ship it will take you a LOT of time to kill it. Might work on Singularity because you are dueling ... in tranquility will be your doom, help tends to be handy in there.
As I said in the other thread, duck, go on the test server, because it is obvious you don't know what you are talking about. Use a ship that uses cap for its tank and weapons. Try to kill another BS before your cap runs out, without using nos.
4 nos 4 siege rohk vs. 8 autocannon maelstrom... rohk wins. Very, very slowly.
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skillbuyer
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Posted - 2006.11.12 18:32:00 -
[16]
That may be related to the brilliant stroke of genius to fit a turret BS with missiles...
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Domalais
Equilibrium LLC
United Confederation of Corporations
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Posted - 2006.11.12 19:56:00 -
[17]
Originally by: skillbuyer
That may be related to the brilliant stroke of genius to fit a turret BS with missiles...
It doesn't have any bonuses to turret damage, so it doesn't matter what type of weapons you fit on it. This is why most Feroxes are missile fitted as well.
Also, you don't want to fit turrets on it because turrets consume cap. That setup on the Rohk allows for a cap-less offense. With the HP increase this is essential.
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murder one
Gallente
CRICE Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.12 20:21:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Khan Soriano
Edited by: Khan Soriano on 12/11/2006 13:43:05
ppl spit such obvious bullcrap its not even funny anymore.
30min fight on SISI?? think about it braniac, hp went 50% so before Kali this fight would last 20min (not counting non-tankable hp so in reality this boost is even slighter), that is acceptable?
Sure it is, because your friend was an even bigger idiot&noob than you are and couldnt properly fit a ship!!! Right now i can enter TQ fit an uber tank on punisher (plated to hell so no pg for decent weapons) take a friend to do the same and pound each others for 2h straight. Does that call for a nerf????? By your logic we all should have 100hp just because some idiot cant figure out the balance between a decent tank and being able to do some damage.
Tanking didnt change!!! 50% is just a slight boost so MY targets dont die in 15seconds!!!
Here is *why* fights take 20-30 min: people are fitting Nos to compete. One guy fits 1 nos to win, reducing his dps slightly, the other guy fits 2. Now the first guy fits 3, because he was out-nossed the last time. Guy number two now fits 4 nos, trying to ensure that he isn't out-nossed. Eventually everyone is trying to fit maximum amount of nos and still have enough DPS to get the job done. (2 guns?)
These fights would never happen on Tranq because it's a different environment. The HP increase is the catalyst for this change. It ensures that whoever has more nos will win, as you can't kill a ship definitively with all guns before your cap runs dry. People are simply hedging their bets and going for the safe play, because they've found out time after time that going for a big gank setup just doesn't get the job done.
Sure, this is 1v1, and the majority of combat probably won't be 1v1 once Kali hits, but that's the point: 1v1 combat and solo piracy will be diminished.
Because I said so...
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Zarch AlDain
Friends of Everyone
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Posted - 2006.11.12 20:40:00 -
[19]
I've not had a chance to test it myself as I have only been on Singularity a bit but from what I am hearing the problem is not directly the 50% issue.
The problem is that:
- Hybrid Turret/Laser ships run out of cap
- The extra 50% leaves more time for NOS/Neuts to be effective
- No-one has enough room for cap boosters
The solutions would seem to be to:
- Reduce the cap usage of certain weapons - either directly or through increase of skills like controlled bursts.
- Reduce the effectiveness of NOS/Neuts - several options suggested such as introducing energy hard points, letting cap batteries provide protected cap, having your lower % of cap be immune to NOS, etc
- Possibly reduce the size of cap boosters, although I would suggest testing the first two changes before doing this as they should reduce the need for them and cap boosters should not be required fitting on all PvP ships.
Zarch AlDain
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Good Sir
Gallente
Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2006.11.12 22:05:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Lenaria
Edited by: Lenaria on 12/11/2006 06:58:17
Edited by: Lenaria on 12/11/2006 06:57:57
I have killed tanked & plated dominix on SiSI in my blasterthron in less than 1 min. So its not THAT bad... All these tales about 30-min duels are just, well, myths. 50% hitpoint increase is after all only 50%, and only HP. So if now on TQ we generally dont see a 30-min duels, we will also not see it after Kali. In fact, 90% fights will be done in 1 min, just like now in TQ.
What is really good - is Capital ship HP increase. Now you wouldnt see a 10 dreads going pop in 5 mins under the fire of just 30 BS gang.
For some reason I find it hard to believe you killed a plated domi in less than one minute, unless he had really bad skills. I dont doubt that you killed it, its just in less than a minute. Personally, I still plan to use a bthron/bhype setup, and have yet to test it on another ship other than a hype. And about the 30 minute duels, yes they are almost that long, the longest fight I had was about 25 minutes, we stopped cause we werent getting anywhere. From this I decided to make a video on the subject becuase of how silly it all is. Sure they are long fights cause they are nos setups, but its the thing to do becuase anything else for the most part dies to it anyway. So the only way to combat it is more nos. Once Sisi is back up I will try more damage setups.
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.12 22:26:00 -
[21]
Fights will now last (shockingly) 50% longer. Because thats all that changed. So if a battle took 1 minute before, it'll take 1.5 minutes now. Easy peasy.
Its possible to have endless duels on TQ right now. As has been mentioned, aslong as both sides have a tank that can absorb all th damage done to it and sustain cap, the fight will last forever. Whether you have 5000HP or 50000HP wouldn't make a difference here.
If your friend had a fight that lasted 40 minutes on Sisi, then on TQ you'd have been in exactly the same place in about 26 minutes. Seeing as repper rates, resistance rates, recharge rates etc. are unchanged, there is no way the HP change can affect your tank anymore than making it last 50% longer. And thats a fact.
This doesn't take into account people swapping DPS for NOS- that'll make fights last longer too. But thats more a by-th-by point.
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2006.11.12 23:08:00 -
[22]
Maybe duels aren't ment to last only 30 seconds? Just a thought.
Originally by: kieron
The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Pattern Clarc
The Priory
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Posted - 2006.11.13 00:21:00 -
[23]
pure gankage won't work, thats all.
fights would last the same if people played the same - but because gankage doesn't work...
nos fueled tanks will change the way players play...
ergo...
more fights last longer -
Sig removed lacks EVE content, email [email protected] if you have any questions - Xorus |
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