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13kr1d1 Hedion University Amarr Empire 133	Posted - 2015.05.17 18:41:57 - [1] - Quote The problem with laser crystals, as we all know, is that they do awful DPS unless they're Multifreq, scorch, or conflag. Given that lasers are average to poor tracking. Given that lasers are midrange weapons designed to excel beyond blasters, and fall short of other long range weapons. Given that laser boats are typically slow, and so can't range control. We should rebalance crystals like this: Crystals should, unlike other weapon systems, lose less damage when trading in range, This is already hugely apparent with scorch, so clearly there is a need for lasers to have this better DPS at range. Right now, anything under multifrequency is considered underperforming, to the point that no one bothers using standard or microwave to deal damage outside the optimal + falloff of blasters or autocannons. You need a certain level of DPS to break enemy tanks. In pulse lasers: Multifrequency should have slightly more 0 angular velocity damage than AC or blasters with long range ammo, not a lot more, not equal. Standard should have equal damage at 0 angular velocity to ACs or blasters loaded with long range ammo. Radio should have slighly less damage at 0 angular velocity to ACs or blasters loaded with long range ammo. At 5 drones of T2, the Tristan is nearly as powerful as the Algos, with a cheaper price tag, better maneuverability and speed, and smaller sig radius to avoid the lazy carebearish T3 station blapping -10s who have no life. Pick tristan for FW.
Haatakan Reppola Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 10	Posted - 2015.05.17 19:05:17 - [2] - Quote Lets compared Mega Pulse Laser to Neutron Blasters Same falloff ranges, tracking is 0.0422 on Laser vs 0.0650 on hybrid Short range ammo (T1 so Multifrequency vs Antimatter) Laser have 12.750km range and 48.16 dps, hybrid have 4.5km range and 58.35 dps. Medium range (Standard vs Lead, no optimal bonus/penalty on from ammo) Laser have 31.5km range and 32.11 dps, hybrid have 9km range and 38.9 dps Long range (Radio vs Iron, max range ammo) Laser have 50.4km range and 20.07 dps, hybrid have 14.4km range and 24.31 dps (less range than lasers with multifrequency) Compared to Blasters the range that Lasers have is just extreme, reason Multifrequency is so much used is that it have the range other weapon systems need to use long range ammo for something lasers use their shortest range ammo for
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1162	Posted - 2015.05.17 19:14:00 - [3] - Quote i think the ammo variance or lack of interesting choices is a problem for all weapons. penalties like -50% are far too huge and weakens the uniqueness of the gun your putting the ammo in. i think a limit of 20% too range either way would be a better way of allowing the uniqueness of each weapon system too shine through more whilst allowing REAL ammo choices. a tiercide is much needed we don't need 10 ammo choices per weapon, where people only really use 2 or 3 of them, we need more like 5 or 6 ammo's all of which give you a real choice as too what you pick Tech 3's need to be multi-role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists. ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist, nerf sentries, -3 slots for droneboats Nerf web strength, Make the blaster eagle worth using
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1802	Posted - 2015.05.17 20:52:35 - [4] - Quote Harvey James wrote: i think the ammo variance or lack of interesting choices is a problem for all weapons. penalties like -50% are far too huge and weakens the uniqueness of the gun your putting the ammo in. i think a limit of 20% too range either way would be a better way of allowing the uniqueness of each weapon system too shine through more whilst allowing REAL ammo choices. a tiercide is much needed we don't need 10 ammo choices per weapon, where people only really use 2 or 3 of them, we need more like 5 or 6 ammo's all of which give you a real choice as too what you pick The smaller to max bonus/penalty can be, the more irrelevant most ammo become. There would be no point for example to firing the second closest range hybrid ammo if AM is 3% shorter range at most...
Hakaari Inkuran State War Academy Caldari State 260	Posted - 2015.05.17 20:53:11 - [5] - Quote All ammo in all weapon systems need rebalancing this is not really unique to lasers.
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1162	Posted - 2015.05.17 20:59:25 - [6] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Harvey James wrote: i think the ammo variance or lack of interesting choices is a problem for all weapons. penalties like -50% are far too huge and weakens the uniqueness of the gun your putting the ammo in. i think a limit of 20% too range either way would be a better way of allowing the uniqueness of each weapon system too shine through more whilst allowing REAL ammo choices. a tiercide is much needed we don't need 10 ammo choices per weapon, where people only really use 2 or 3 of them, we need more like 5 or 6 ammo's all of which give you a real choice as too what you pick The smaller to max bonus/penalty can be, the more irrelevant most ammo become. There would be no point for example to firing the second closest range hybrid ammo if AM is 3% shorter range at most... why would fozzie make ammo with just 3% difference?? .... the point was that instead of having 10 diff ammo types thus needing the big range 0 - 75%, halving the ammo and then focusing there roles strongly the range could be vastly reduced making the weapon systems much more significant and along with weapon tiercide, choices would be better and harder too decide what too pick making more interesting choices all round. Tech 3's need to be multi-role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists. ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist, nerf sentries, -3 slots for droneboats Nerf web strength, Make the blaster eagle worth using
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 673	Posted - 2015.05.17 21:40:40 - [7] - Quote I don't have much problems with lasers and there is another laser turret that uses laser crystals. Not all dps is the same. Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
Xequecal GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 310	Posted - 2015.05.17 23:32:39 - [8] - Quote Lasers are actually overpowered right now, the problems are: 1. There are very few hulls that cater to the strength of lasers. (read: kiting) 2. Just like every other weapon system in Eve except for light missiles, they're completely and totally obsoleted by sentry drones.
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 690	Posted - 2015.05.18 04:52:08 - [9] - Quote Xequecal wrote: Relative to everything that's not sentry drones, lasers are actually overpowered right now, the problems are: 1. There are very few hulls that cater to the strength of lasers. (read: kiting) Omen Navy Issue and Navy Slicer are retardedly good, because they can kite. 2. Just like every other weapon system in Eve except for light missiles, they're completely and totally obsoleted by sentry drones. Confirming. In every size, past 2-4km, lasers out DPS everything until you hit ranges well beyond heated linked faction long-point range. Talking more, Flying crazier, And drinking more Making battleships worth the warp
13kr1d1 Hedion University Amarr Empire 134	Posted - 2015.05.18 05:07:27 - [10] - Quote Hakaari Inkuran wrote: All ammo in all weapon systems need rebalancing this is not really unique to lasers. I agree but after swapping from navy microwave to scorch s, getting equal range and a crapton more DPS at range, I think there's something really wrong with laser ammo. Xequecal wrote: Relative to everything that's not sentry drones, lasers are actually overpowered right now, the problems are: 1. There are very few hulls that cater to the strength of lasers. (read: kiting) Omen Navy Issue and Navy Slicer are retardedly good, because they can kite. 2. Just like every other weapon system in Eve except for light missiles, they're completely and totally obsoleted by sentry drones. Drones in general are their own problem, with sentries just being the extreme end. The Quote: kite hulls like slicer and Navomen, which don't necessarily have to be kite designed, were originally intended to just have more range projection using short range, high dps ammo. Their agility breaks with traditional amarr design, so they're compounding goodies on top of lasers. If they were not designed as they are, if they were slow and lacked agility like most amarr stuff, their bonuses would simply make them good when they can't really dictate range, rathe than amazing. Rather than see the hulls catering to the strengths of lasers, see the hulls as having unintendedly good synergy with lasers, which were supposed to have drawbacks of the original amarr design philosophies. Harvey James wrote: i think the ammo variance or lack of interesting choices is a problem for all weapons. penalties like -50% are far too huge and weakens the uniqueness of the gun your putting the ammo in. i think a limit of 20% too range either way would be a better way of allowing the uniqueness of each weapon system too shine through more whilst allowing REAL ammo choices. a tiercide is much needed we don't need 10 ammo choices per weapon, where people only really use 2 or 3 of them, we need more like 5 or 6 ammo's all of which give you a real choice as too what you pick In general, the idea of using different ammo is to outrange or outdamage your opponent, because one of you is trying to control range, and the other is trying to do more DPS by having better optimal+falloff, or by having better damage at short range (multifreq/blasters). Amarr crystals can swap quickly, so they obviously should be changing their loadout in response to changing conditions, such as a brawl boat getting into range. My problem was when designing a midrange ship to outrange autocannons, it took small dual beam turrets and navy microwave S to get the same as pulse turrets with scorch S, which is a huge loss of damage, and when you have no bite, you cant break someone's tank. Lasers are ridiculously good, with the right ammo, and the right ship, and the right turret type. They are fairly bad any other way. I'd prefer that more styles are available to lasers rather than SlicersOnline or TormentorBrawls. It'd be nice to range out to 15-20km with normal ships, to get the midrange countering the short range guns of thrashers and incursus, for example. Then, ideally, as amarr are slower, they don't really dictate range so they swap to shorter range crystals as the enemy gets into range, giving them some time at midrange to whittle down the opponent before a DPS race in close quarters. I like your sig, btw. I pitched a bitchfit over the introduction of T2 ships for the same reason. T3 cruisers are just ridiculously power creep. At 5 drones of T2, the Tristan is nearly as powerful as the Algos, with a cheaper price tag, better maneuverability and speed, and smaller sig radius to avoid the lazy carebearish T3 station blapping -10s who have no life. Pick tristan for FW.
13kr1d1 Hedion University Amarr Empire 134	Posted - 2015.05.18 05:11:00 - [11] - Quote Haatakan Reppola wrote: Lets compared Mega Pulse Laser to Neutron Blasters Same falloff ranges, tracking is 0.0422 on Laser vs 0.0650 on hybrid Short range ammo (T1 so Multifrequency vs Antimatter) Laser have 12.750km range and 48.16 dps, hybrid have 4.5km range and 58.35 dps. Medium range (Standard vs Lead, no optimal bonus/penalty on from ammo) Laser have 31.5km range and 32.11 dps, hybrid have 9km range and 38.9 dps Long range (Radio vs Iron, max range ammo) Laser have 50.4km range and 20.07 dps, hybrid have 14.4km range and 24.31 dps (less range than lasers with multifrequency) Compared to Blasters the range that Lasers have is just extreme, reason Multifrequency is so much used is that it have the range other weapon systems need to use long range ammo for something lasers use their shortest range ammo for If you're going to say that the design philosophy of amarr weapons being midrange tends to fall apart with larger ship classes, I'm inclined to agree. Im focusing more on small laser turrets for the argument, but obviously as you point out, there's something more lacking in balance in the bigger guns. At 5 drones of T2, the Tristan is nearly as powerful as the Algos, with a cheaper price tag, better maneuverability and speed, and smaller sig radius to avoid the lazy carebearish T3 station blapping -10s who have no life. Pick tristan for FW.
Celthric Kanerian Ascendance Of New Eden Workers Trade Federation 287	Posted - 2015.05.18 05:41:02 - [12] - Quote 1150 dps at 58 km optimal with Navy Multi Freq with Mega Pulse Laser II is of course not powerful enough...
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 690	Posted - 2015.05.18 06:20:16 - [13] - Quote 13kr1d1 wrote: If you're going to say that the design philosophy of amarr weapons being midrange tends to fall apart with larger ship classes, I'm inclined to agree. Im focusing more on small laser turrets for the argument, but obviously as you point out, there's something more lacking in balance in the bigger guns. So, lets do the same sort of comparison with smalls then, with all skills 5 and no hull bonuses. Lasers are in Bold, Projectiles in italic, and hybrids underlined. t2 short range ammo numbers Dual light beam laser II 3.6+2.5 27.7DPS 0.1828 rad/sec -1.26GJ/s Small focused beam laser II 4.1+3.1 33.2DPS 0.1406 rad/sec -1.88GJ/s Dual light pulse laser II 3.5+2.5 30.1DPS 0.2395 rad/sec -1.28GJ/s Gatling Pulse laser II 3.2+1.3 29DPS 0.2696 rad/sec -1.12GJ/s Small focused Pulse laser II 3.9+3.1 34.8DPS 0.2155 rad/sec -1.65GJ/s 75MM Gatling Rail II 2.3+3.8 23.4DPS 0.2133 rad/sec -0.462GJ/s 125MM Railgun II 3.4+6.3 25DPS 0.1395 rad/sec -0.47GJ/s 150MM Railgun II 4.5+7.5 26.3DPS 0.1148 rad/sec -0.551GJ/s Light Electron Blaster II 1.1+0.9 37.3DPS 0.4106 rad/sec -0.42GJ/s Light Ion Blaster II 1.4+1.3 40DPS 0.378 rad/sec -0.396GJ/s Light Neutron Blaster II 1.7+1.6 42.6DPS 0.3561 rad/sec -0.514GJ/s 125MM Gatling Autocannon II 0.6+4 27.9DPS 0.3649 rad/sec 0GJ/s 150MM Light Autocannon 0.7+4.4 29.8DPS 0.3168 rad/sec 0GJ/s 200MM Autocannon II 0.8+4.8 31.3DPS 0.2756 rad/sec 0GJ/s 250MM Light Arty Cannon II 3+11 22.1DPS 0.125 rad/sec 0GJ/s 280MM Howitzer Artillery II 3.8+11 24.3DPS 0.1 rad/sec 0GJ/s The numbers fairly cleanly show a DPS advantage of all but the smaller beam laser over all projectiles, an optimal range advantage over most of the hybrids and all of the projectiles, and a DPS advantage if one looks at beams vs rails. Now, lets look at one weapon with various crystals. How about the much beloved Small focused Pulse laser II ? Small focused Pulse laser II Stats, various crystals Conflag 3.9+3.1 34.8DPS 0.2155 rad/sec -1.65GJ/s IN Multi 3.9+3.1 31.2DPS 0.3078 rad/sec -1.32Gj/s Multi 3.9+3.1 27.1DPS 0.3078 rad/sec -1.32Gj/s IN Gamma 4.9+3.1 28.6DPS 0.3078 rad/sec -1.12Gj/s Gamma 4.9+3.1 24.8DPS 0.3078 rad/sec -1.12Gj/s IN Xray 5.9+3.1 26DPS 0.3078 rad/sec -0.99Gj/s Xray 5.9+3.1 22.6DPS 0.3078 rad/sec -0.99Gj/s IN Ultraviolet 6.9+3.1 23.4DPS 0.3078 rad/sec -0.858Gj/s Ultraviolet 6.9+3.1 20.3DPS 0.3078 rad/sec -0.858Gj/s IN Standard 7.9+3.1 20.8DPS 0.3078 rad/sec -0.726Gj/s IN Infrared 9.5+3.1 18.2DPS 0.3078 rad/sec -0.858Gj/s IN Microwave 11+3.1 15.6DPS 0.3078 rad/sec -0.99Gj/s IN Radio 13+3.1 13DPS 0.3078 rad/sec -0.99Gj/s Scorch 11+3.1 24.8DPS 0.2309 rad/sec -1.32GJ/s Ah, now there we find the problem! Scorch is excessive good, providing nearly the same DPS as X-ray, with almost twice the optimal range, and tracking that is more than sufficient for most targets. I can now see why you feel it is necessary to nerf Scorch down to a DPS of roughly 17DPS in this turret while maintaining the tracking and cap usage as they currently are. Oh, wait, you wanted the whole weapon system to be that hilariously broken. Talking more, Flying crazier, And drinking more Making battleships worth the warp
13kr1d1 Hedion University Amarr Empire 135	Posted - 2015.05.18 06:25:33 - [14] - Quote Actually, I said that multifreq should be slightly more DPS than AC or blasters with long range ammo, standard should be even DPS with that long range ammo, and radio should be slightly less. Since ACs and blasters have the least DPS when modified for the furthest range, you're completely wrong saying I think all ammo should be scorch level. At 5 drones of T2, the Tristan is nearly as powerful as the Algos, with a cheaper price tag, better maneuverability and speed, and smaller sig radius to avoid the lazy carebearish T3 station blapping -10s who have no life. Pick tristan for FW.
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 690	Posted - 2015.05.18 06:30:15 - [15] - Quote 13kr1d1 wrote: Actually, I said that multifreq should be slightly more DPS than AC or blasters with long range ammo, standard should be even DPS with that long range ammo, and radio should be slightly less. Since ACs and blasters have the least DPS when modified for the furthest range, you're completely wrong saying I think all ammo should be scorch level. So, let me get this straight and throw some numbers out there. 200mm AC with RF proton in gets 11.7 DPS. So now small focused pulse laser II gets 14 with IN multi, 11.7 with standard and 9.8 or so with radio, and you would be happy with that? Talking more, Flying crazier, And drinking more Making battleships worth the warp
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1204	Posted - 2015.05.18 06:57:05 - [16] - Quote I don't think I've ever heard someone say lasers have average to poor tracking before, because scorch is that good. Whilst it exists, lasers aren't really 'fixable' imo.
Xequecal GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 314	Posted - 2015.05.18 09:02:35 - [17] - Quote Why is everyone talking about battleships? You're not paying attention. What are lasers good at? Kiting. What can battleships not do? Right. Lasers are ** on battleships. Don't compare pulse lasers to neutrons and projectiles. Nobody ever uses those on BS. Compare them to railguns and you'll quickly see how ** they are. A Megathron with railguns and CN Plutonium significantly outdamages a pulse Abaddon at its optimal range, and when using CN Thorium it also significantly outdamages a pulse Apoc at its optimal range. The ability of the rail Mega to deal damage from further away than this is far more valuable than the ability of the pulse ships to deal more damage than this when at point blank range, so there you go. PvP balance in Eve is very simple. You fly Gallente or you go home. They're so overpowered that there's literally no risk in training for the FOTM here, as in the majority of ship classes they don't only have the best ship, but they also have the second best ship as well. So even if sentry drones get nerfed at some point, Gallente will still be the best at everything.
Catherine Laartii Crimson Serpent Syndicate Heiian Conglomerate 535	Posted - 2015.05.18 09:15:16 - [18] - Quote How about since lasers are basically just light-based weaponry, upping their tracking and range significantly while lowering their dps, but increasing their cap usage and giving them a slight penalty to weapon heat damage per usage, same as the crystals? you'd get excellent damage application but they'd be a lot harder to manage.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1208	Posted - 2015.05.18 09:25:18 - [19] - Quote Xequecal wrote: PvP balance in Eve is very simple. You fly Gallente or you go home. They're so overpowered that there's literally no risk in training for the FOTM here, as in the majority of ship classes they don't only have the best ship, but they also have the second best ship as well. So even if sentry drones get nerfed at some point, Gallente will still be the best at everything. Here and I thought I was the only one that saw this. I'm sure someone will be along shortly to tell us that in niche situation #98798687687 we're wrong, but in 90% of all engagements the statement stands firm. Those are betting odds.
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 674	Posted - 2015.05.18 11:04:28 - [20] - Quote Catherine Laartii wrote: How about since lasers are basically just light-based weaponry, upping their tracking and range significantly while lowering their dps, but increasing their cap usage and giving them a slight penalty to weapon heat damage per usage, same as the crystals? you'd get excellent damage application but they'd be a lot harder to manage. Have you ever used any large beam laser? They are hard to manage as is and don't need more nerfing. Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 693	Posted - 2015.05.18 14:25:26 - [21] - Quote afkalt wrote: Xequecal wrote: PvP balance in Eve is very simple. You fly Gallente or you go home. They're so overpowered that there's literally no risk in training for the FOTM here, as in the majority of ship classes they don't only have the best ship, but they also have the second best ship as well. So even if sentry drones get nerfed at some point, Gallente will still be the best at everything. Here and I thought I was the only one that saw this. I'm sure someone will be along shortly to tell us that in niche situation #98798687687 we're wrong, but in 90% of all engagements the statement stands firm. Those are betting odds. Confirming that with drones fixed, rails and blasters would have only scorch pulses that come close, and that this means gallente needs at least 2 nerfs before it becomes time to neuter scorch and then maybe we will have achieved balance. Talking more, Flying crazier, And drinking more Making battleships worth the warp
Phaade Perimeter Defense Systems Templis CALSF 346	Posted - 2015.05.18 15:05:38 - [22] - Quote Xequecal wrote: Relative to everything that's not sentry drones, lasers are actually overpowered right now, the problems are: 1. There are very few hulls that cater to the strength of lasers. (read: kiting) Omen Navy Issue and Navy Slicer are retardedly good, because they can kite. 2. Just like every other weapon system in Eve except for light missiles, they're completely and totally obsoleted by sentry drones. They are only retardedly good when linked, and loaded with scorch. Which is at least half of what this thread is about.
Phaade Perimeter Defense Systems Templis CALSF 346	Posted - 2015.05.18 15:09:34 - [23] - Quote Celthric Kanerian wrote: 1150 dps at 58 km optimal with Navy Multi Freq with Mega Pulse Laser II is of course not powerful enough... It has been established, many many times, that large lasers are actually good. Small and Medium are what need adjusting, pretty badly. At least beams are decent now even though they wreck your capacitor.
Phaade Perimeter Defense Systems Templis CALSF 346	Posted - 2015.05.18 15:17:49 - [24] - Quote Xequecal wrote: Why is everyone talking about battleships? You're not paying attention. What are lasers good at? Kiting. What can battleships not do? Right. Lasers are ** on battleships. Don't compare pulse lasers to neutrons and projectiles. Nobody ever uses those on BS. Compare them to railguns and you'll quickly see how ** they are. A Megathron with railguns and CN Plutonium significantly outdamages a pulse Abaddon at its optimal range, and when using CN Thorium it also significantly outdamages a pulse Apoc at its optimal range. The ability of the rail Mega to deal damage from further away than this is far more valuable than the ability of the pulse ships to deal more damage than this when at point blank range, so there you go. PvP balance in Eve is very simple. You fly Gallente or you go home. They're so overpowered that there's literally no risk in training for the FOTM here, as in the majority of ship classes they don't only have the best ship, but they also have the second best ship as well. So even if sentry drones get nerfed at some point, Gallente will still be the best at everything. This man speaks the truth! You have to really wonder about CCP's favoritism toward Gallente.... And before that it was Winmatar, their ally!
13kr1d1 Hedion University Amarr Empire 137	Posted - 2015.05.18 19:02:08 - [25] - Quote afkalt wrote: I don't think I've ever heard someone say lasers have average to poor tracking before, because scorch is that good. Whilst it exists, lasers aren't really 'fixable' imo. Then you haven't looked at the values. Lasers have good tracking for their optimal+falloff range,but blasters and autocannons have even better tracking for their optimal+falloff range. Go ahead and try to use small pulse lasers at 1000 meters vs an enemy target and you'll see how bad your DPS gets real quick. At 5 drones of T2, the Tristan is nearly as powerful as the Algos, with a cheaper price tag, better maneuverability and speed, and smaller sig radius to avoid the lazy carebearish T3 station blapping -10s who have no life. Pick tristan for FW.
Khorvek Dead Pool Syndicate 12	Posted - 2015.05.20 04:50:02 - [26] - Quote I'm a bit surprised people in this thread have said lasers have the best DPS. You don't often hear about coercer freighter or miner suicide ganking fleets. The number one ship for undock games in Amarr for faction warfare is a thrasher. Catalysts have always been considered the gank ship for suicide runs. That doesn't sound like lasers have the most DPS in the game. I don't understand the issue people seem to believe in inflation due to mission runners and ratting... Without missions and rats, isk wouldn't exist in Eve. All trading, selling T2 stuff, and buying ore, all of it depends on isk generated elsewhere.
Haatakan Reppola Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 12	Posted - 2015.05.20 05:32:45 - [27] - Quote Khorvek wrote: I'm a bit surprised people in this thread have said lasers have the best DPS. You don't often hear about coercer freighter or miner suicide ganking fleets. The number one ship for undock games in Amarr for faction warfare is a thrasher. Catalysts have always been considered the gank ship for suicide runs. That doesn't sound like lasers have the most DPS in the game. Trasher have best alpha, Catalyst have optimal (50% role) + falloff (10%/lvl) bonus to counter the EXTREME low range from small blasters.
Khorvek Dead Pool Syndicate 12	Posted - 2015.05.20 06:30:55 - [28] - Quote That would still mean we'd see amarr ships used for station ganking FW targets instead of thrashers, if thrashers were high alpha and low dps compared to lasers being higher dps. People don't station camp in FW with coercers but with thrashers. I don't understand the issue people seem to believe in inflation due to mission runners and ratting... Without missions and rats, isk wouldn't exist in Eve. All trading, selling T2 stuff, and buying ore, all of it depends on isk generated elsewhere.
Haatakan Reppola Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 12	Posted - 2015.05.20 07:17:55 - [29] - Quote Khorvek wrote: That would still mean we'd see amarr ships used for station ganking FW targets instead of thrashers, if thrashers were high alpha and low dps compared to lasers being higher dps. People don't station camp in FW with coercers but with thrashers. Beam Coercer does 30% more DPS than Arty Thraser (no dmg mod, where coercer have 1 extra low for more dmg) Pulse Coercer does 4-5% more DPS than AC Thraser with 4x optimal and almost same falloff (again no dmg mods counted) Arty Thraser does 70% more alpha than beam Coercer, THATS why its used
Anthar Thebess 1038	Posted - 2015.05.20 07:42:49 - [30] - Quote You want to re balance crystals , start with faction ones. Sansha / blood crystals are much worst than a imperial versions , so you need to bring this stuff instead of buying it from local supplier. Capital Remote AID Rebalance Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.

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