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Xendie Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.11.12 21:19:00 - [1] what is the official CCP response? is it "legal" for someone to drop around 15cans at a gate wich will lag like mad? or is it considered a exploit? Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
NeoTech Out Siders Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.12 21:23:00 - [2] Edited by: NeoTech on 12/11/2006 21:23:47 Originally by: Xendie what is the official CCP response? is it "legal" for someone to drop around 15cans at a gate wich will lag like mad? or is it considered a exploit? i believe it was legal... since they couldn't prove that they were put there to create lag...
Ralara Caldari Reunited O X I D E	Posted - 2006.11.12 21:24:00 - [3] 15 cans do not cause lag. Well, not a lot, anyway :)

Eldo Davip Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2006.11.12 21:26:00 - [4] Originally by: Xendie what is the official CCP response? is it "legal" for someone to drop around 15cans at a gate wich will lag like mad? or is it considered a exploit? It is not legal. From the Terms of Service: Originally by: Terms of Service 15 You may not do anything that interferes with the ability of other EVE Online subscribers to enjoy the game or web site in accordance with its rules. This includes, but is not limited to, making inappropriate use of any public channels within the game and/or intentionally creating excessive latency (lag) by dumping cargo containers, corpses or other items in the game world. ___ Email Us (Report a bad post) \| Forum Rules - Read 'em! \| Website EvE ONLINE - T+TALHELLDEATH SUPPORTER

Sidrat Flush Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.12 21:27:00 - [5] never mind the cans around the gates, look at all the unused cans in belts these days. Argh, please CCP clean em up before the update, give sixty day warning, cans not in use for previous 30 days will get deleted. That'll clean up the systems no worries. I don't mind the advert cans as they are the best way and means the local channel is kept clear of spam for the most part. Life is about memories the more the better. Looking for CCP to improve availability of their GTC's, for non card carriers!
Xendie Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.11.12 21:29:00 - [6] Originally by: Eldo Davip Originally by: Xendie what is the official CCP response? is it "legal" for someone to drop around 15cans at a gate wich will lag like mad? or is it considered a exploit? It is not legal. From the Terms of Service: Originally by: Terms of Service 15 You may not do anything that interferes with the ability of other EVE Online subscribers to enjoy the game or web site in accordance with its rules. This includes, but is not limited to, making inappropriate use of any public channels within the game and/or intentionally creating excessive latency (lag) by dumping cargo containers, corpses or other items in the game world. ty for your response Eldo now we just need to see if the GM's see it that way Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Saint Schala OctoberSnow Corp	Posted - 2006.11.12 21:30:00 - [7] did they drop cans or were they snipeing and are just loot cans? when snipeing its not unusual for this to happen. and as the gm probably said its illeagal and considered an exploit to deliberatly induce lag. prooving it is another matter though. ----------------------------------------------- 23453457 dont ya just hate not knowing the meaning behind a cryptic sig???? 34564556890
NeoTech Out Siders Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.12 21:37:00 - [8] Originally by: Eldo Davip Originally by: Xendie what is the official CCP response? is it "legal" for someone to drop around 15cans at a gate wich will lag like mad? or is it considered a exploit? It is not legal. From the Terms of Service: Originally by: Terms of Service 15 You may not do anything that interferes with the ability of other EVE Online subscribers to enjoy the game or web site in accordance with its rules. This includes, but is not limited to, making inappropriate use of any public channels within the game and/or intentionally creating excessive latency (lag) by dumping cargo containers, corpses or other items in the game world. it might not be legal from the EULA's point of view. But its not possible to prove it, is it? Or how do u enforce it?
Xendie Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.11.12 21:55:00 - [9] Originally by: NeoTech Originally by: Eldo Davip Originally by: Xendie what is the official CCP response? is it "legal" for someone to drop around 15cans at a gate wich will lag like mad? or is it considered a exploit? It is not legal. From the Terms of Service: Originally by: Terms of Service 15 You may not do anything that interferes with the ability of other EVE Online subscribers to enjoy the game or web site in accordance with its rules. This includes, but is not limited to, making inappropriate use of any public channels within the game and/or intentionally creating excessive latency (lag) by dumping cargo containers, corpses or other items in the game world. it might not be legal from the EULA's point of view. But its not possible to prove it, is it? Or how do u enforce it? when you warp in to the grid you freeze up for 20sec due to the cans placed in the grid. some people call it tactical cans. i personally think that is BLEEP because if they wanted tactical they can make bookmarks at tactical locations like everyone else. or they can have 4-5 of the 50ppl in coverts placed at tactical ranges around the gate. there is no reason for anyone to call it tactical since all it does is create lag and there are other tools available for a more tactical aproach. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Too Kind	Posted - 2006.11.12 22:08:00 - [10] Edited by: Too Kind on 12/11/2006 22:10:53 Originally by: Eldo Davip Originally by: Xendie what is the official CCP response? is it "legal" for someone to drop around 15cans at a gate wich will lag like mad? or is it considered a exploit? It is not legal. From the Terms of Service: Originally by: Terms of Service 15 You may not do anything that interferes with the ability of other EVE Online subscribers to enjoy the game or web site in accordance with its rules. This includes, but is not limited to, making inappropriate use of any public channels within the game and/or intentionally creating excessive latency (lag) by dumping cargo containers, corpses or other items in the game world. They were probably not there to create lag, but as jump-in points to get close to incoming snipers. So 'intentionally create lag' doesn't work here. And that's probably, why the GMs decided that it's ok. And 15 cans is quite a lot of cans, but shouldn't create heavy lag by default. Extreme lag = fighting at a pos with maybe like 300 ships/structures/drones/other objects in space. -------------------------- Post with your main !!!111
Rei Toai Faaip De Oiad	Posted - 2006.11.12 22:11:00 - [11] Originally by: Xendie when you warp in to the grid you freeze up for 20sec due to the cans placed in the grid. ... or they can have 4-5 of the 50ppl in coverts placed at tactical ranges around the gate. where those 50 people also in the grid?? and did you have your overview open when your warped in - maybe with informations like "speed", "transversal", "corp", "alliance" also in your overview?? __________________________________ I don't want to talk about it I don't want to talk about it I don't want to talk about it I don't want to know.
Xendie Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.11.12 22:17:00 - [12] Originally by: Rei Toai Originally by: Xendie when you warp in to the grid you freeze up for 20sec due to the cans placed in the grid. ... or they can have 4-5 of the 50ppl in coverts placed at tactical ranges around the gate. where those 50 people also in the grid?? and did you have your overview open when your warped in - maybe with informations like "speed", "transversal", "corp", "alliance" also in your overview?? i warped out and in after the cans were removed and i didnt get a 20sec freeze, maybe a 2-3sec lag the people did create lag but the added cans created silly amounts of lag. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Xendie Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.11.12 22:22:00 - [13] Originally by: Too Kind Edited by: Too Kind on 12/11/2006 22:10:53 Originally by: Eldo Davip Originally by: Xendie what is the official CCP response? is it "legal" for someone to drop around 15cans at a gate wich will lag like mad? or is it considered a exploit? It is not legal. From the Terms of Service: Originally by: Terms of Service 15 You may not do anything that interferes with the ability of other EVE Online subscribers to enjoy the game or web site in accordance with its rules. This includes, but is not limited to, making inappropriate use of any public channels within the game and/or intentionally creating excessive latency (lag) by dumping cargo containers, corpses or other items in the game world. They were probably not there to create lag, but as jump-in points to get close to incoming snipers. So 'intentionally create lag' doesn't work here. And that's probably, why the GMs decided that it's ok. And 15 cans is quite a lot of cans, but shouldn't create heavy lag by default. Extreme lag = fighting at a pos with maybe like 300 ships/structures/drones/other objects in space. they can place their inty out there or covert ops. dropping a bunch of cans creates lag and everyone knows it. they wanted ppl to lag up for 20sec when they come warping in otherwise they would have used intys stationed out at those spots for others to warp to or coverts. nothing tactical about dropping cans, it just creates a bucketload of lag. and geminate is already the arseend of serverupgrades as in it is enough lag there with just a couple of ppl in the same constellation. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
dj lightning Caldari Black Lance Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.12 23:14:00 - [14] warp to cans nothing more and it was around 10 cans. i think u need a hug TBFH
Recon One Infinite Improbability Inc Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.12 23:14:00 - [15] Xendie you are taking this out of propotion to what was happening. 1st never saw you at the gate during this particluar incident 2nd your petion was from a safe spot where you were scaning the gate we didnt have 15 cans up that is a lie 3rd it show clear favoritism to you and the sniper pirates that were there with the way the cans were removed we didnt put them there for lag reasons we did it to mark your known warp in points 4th secure cans were not ours and were not remove as well as the other cans 5th imho the GM abused his power and granted you favorable tactics by the GM 6th we were not asked what we were doing or wheather we were suffering any lag as well overall i do not understand why this was done for you it degrades our enjoyment of the game that you have too many sniper bms around the gate for a reasonable peson to mark and or respond to... you are using the bm system as an exploit to make it immpossible to stop or respond to you sniping attacks
Oceana Black Lance Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.12 23:18:00 - [16] Multiple sniper spots = multiple marker spots to try to catch you. If you don't want so many cans, don't make so many sniper spots?
Naal Morno ECP Rogues Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.12 23:20:00 - [17] Edited by: Naal Morno on 12/11/2006 23:20:16 Mr OP. You are twisting facts and are generally known to have counting deficiences (you counted our numbers wrong, number of cans wrong (even though you claimed to be cloaked near gate) and number oh ships we lost in one of the fights. In all three cases you multiplies real numbers by about 3..... There were up to 6 cans (3-4 not ours, some secure cans dropped by ganked ships) deployed around the gate at about 200km to be able to catch your snipers. You, like a littly crying baby, run to GMs and petitioned this fact, regardless of the fact that you were yourself using tactical BMs which is a shady practice itself. Next time we should petition you for intentionally creating lag and sabotaging EVE servers by creating excessive amount of bookmarks around the gat. That practice pretty nicely adheres to EULA violation definition we see in one of the posts above. Thank you and please stop discussing this subject because it is also against EULA to discuss GM's decisions. Cheers. _________________________________________ Once I thought T2 BPO Lottery is a problem... Then I've become a part of problem and I relized that previously I was just plain jealous.
Tonkin Black Lance Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.13 00:43:00 - [18] Originally by: Xendie what is the official CCP response? is it "legal" for someone to drop around 15cans at a gate wich will lag like mad? or is it considered a exploit? "You may not exploit any bug in EVE Online to gain an unfair advantage over other players. You may not communicate the existence of any exploitable bug to others directly or through a public forum. Bugs should be reported through the bug reporting tool on our website." droping cans at a gate to obstruct people from jumping is a exploit. for example dropping cans at 15km will bump a cepter or a cloaker so they can be killed. "CCP MAY FIND IT NECESSARY ON OCCASION TO MAKE CHANGES TO OR RESET CERTAIN PARAMETERS OF THE PERSISTENT GAME WORLD MECHANICS, INTERFACE OR FEATURES OF EVE ONLINE IN ORDER TO MAINTAIN GAME BALANCE AND ENHANCE PLAYABILITY OR PERFORMANCE FOR ITS SUBSCRIBERS. THESE CHANGES MAY AFFECT OR CAUSE SETBACKS FOR THE CHARACTERS YOUÆVE CREATED." yea ccp have the right to remove the cans from the game but i do not see that cans dropped at 200km will restrict you getting to the gate. 15 cans can cause lag but not alot. ive see snipers warp into gates with fleet battles going on shoot and warp within 30-60 secounds. seeing that there where 6 cans made by players for warp in points for snipers to catch them, in other words as BECONS to kill the enemy. now this has happend before when i was killing fix about 6 months ago. we dotted cans to catch snipers around the station. fix petitoned complainging that we have cans outside the station. the gm comes in thinkin that we have dropped cans outside the station entrance which is a exploit. the GM come in looked and said that a few cans at the entrance should not be there, we explained to the gm that the cans there where fix peeps we killed. he examined them and found out that we where telling the truth and said just kill the cans after you have done with them. he did not care about the cans dotted 250km out in a + formation on both axies. we asked if that was a exploit and he said it wasnt. now with our forsaken friend here, did not like the fact that his bookmarks where being marked and he could no longer get to shoot the gate camp. fair play i would be annoyed at this but will try a other way to get a kill. each gm is different but i dont see this as a exploit. yea lag happens part of the game, you could say its a feature now. but 6 cans man upgrade your computer or isp DUDE and stop posting with your alts Sig removed, you sig was too ubber to display and ccp had no choice but to nerf it - CCP(NERFBAT)

GM Eldini Minmatar Game Masters	Posted - 2006.11.13 01:45:00 - [19] Cans are for storeage. They are not to be used for anything tactical. This does not mean that you can eject 20 cans at a gate if they contain some ammo. --------------------- Best regards, GM Eldini EVE Online Customer Support

Lithalnas Amarr Hadean Drive Yards	Posted - 2006.11.13 03:01:00 - [20] after 30 days of inactivity just make them targets for looters. Anyone can shoot at them without getting concorded. Eve can self regulate... sometimes. ------------- Cadet Lithalnas - Logistics Division - Hadean Drive Yards
Ender Hawks Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.11.13 04:07:00 - [21] Originally by: GM Eldini Cans are for storeage. They are not to be used for anything tactical. This does not mean that you can eject 20 cans at a gate if they contain some ammo. I believe that settles it The cans do create lag although the intention is to mark warp-in points, which can be done with cloakers and/or inty support. Another question: This is to the Gm's not all the D2 springing to life on this thread.... Is using bm's to warp in to snipe considered an exploit?
Naal Morno ECP Rogues Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.13 04:10:00 - [22] Edited by: Naal Morno on 13/11/2006 04:10:47 Originally by: Ender Hawks Originally by: GM Eldini Cans are for storeage. They are not to be used for anything tactical. This does not mean that you can eject 20 cans at a gate if they contain some ammo. I believe that settles it The cans do create lag although the intention is to mark warp-in points, which can be done with cloakers and/or inty support. Another question: This is to the Gm's not all the D2 springing to life on this thread.... Is using bm's to warp in to snipe considered an exploit? No, but having so many excessive BMs in you P&P folder DOES create lag, so looking from our perspective you: 1) Lagged yourself out 2) Lagged us out Therefore you are violating EULA. _________________________________________ Once I thought T2 BPO Lottery is a problem... Then I've become a part of problem and I relized that previously I was just plain jealous.
Valentine Keen ECP Rogues Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.13 06:05:00 - [23] Its ok, I forwarded the info I received from the GM who removed the 4 cans we had out there to [email protected], and we will see the response. There were only 4 out there most of the time and he kept removing them, definetely not a case of lag since Jita 4-4 has more than that many cans on an hourly basis.
Xendie Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.11.13 12:31:00 - [24] Originally by: Recon One Xendie you are taking this out of propotion to what was happening. 1st never saw you at the gate during this particluar incident 2nd your petion was from a safe spot where you were scaning the gate we didnt have 15 cans up that is a lie 3rd it show clear favoritism to you and the sniper pirates that were there with the way the cans were removed we didnt put them there for lag reasons we did it to mark your known warp in points 4th secure cans were not ours and were not remove as well as the other cans 5th imho the GM abused his power and granted you favorable tactics by the GM 6th we were not asked what we were doing or wheather we were suffering any lag as well overall i do not understand why this was done for you it degrades our enjoyment of the game that you have too many sniper bms around the gate for a reasonable peson to mark and or respond to... you are using the bm system as an exploit to make it immpossible to stop or respond to you sniping attacks 1st. i was in a covert ops. 2nd. my petition was not so many k away from you and not from a safespot 3rd. i did warp in and out with and without the cans in the grid, result? 20sec freeze with cans, 3sec without them 4th. i didnt care about the secure cans they were from a hauler that someone blew up and they werent factored in to the equation, your cans created the lag. 5th. as i said earlier, use the tools given to you within the rules to play with. 6th. he dont have to ask you, you were breaking the rules. and fyi, i was the snipepoint so the cans still didnt do anything but create lag wich you already knew. and i know the exact number of cans you dropped also as i saved a screenie of it. exploiting bad mmkay. dont cry, just say no to exploiting. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Captain 5h4ggy Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.11.13 15:59:00 - [25] This seems to have hit a sore spot.... --- Keep ur Friends Close and ur Enemy's Closer
fugazii Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.11.13 17:08:00 - [26] Originally by: Valentine Keen Its ok, I forwarded the info I received from the GM who removed the 4 cans we had out there to [email protected], and we will see the response. There were only 4 out there most of the time and he kept removing them, definetely not a case of lag since Jita 4-4 has more than that many cans on an hourly basis. hmmm, funny how your own alliance member said there was usually 10, yet your saying 4. which ones the liar? if you guys want your arguement to be taken seriously, try getting your stories straight
Naal Morno ECP Rogues Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.13 17:17:00 - [27] Edited by: Naal Morno on 13/11/2006 17:18:52 I said 6. Besides, since you are so sensitive to couple of extra objects out at the gate (against what CCP says this game is not playable over dial up matey)...we will just deploy our drones next time (20 ships, 5 drones each, by your counts it should be 300 drones since you can't count), we will see how you like your playability then. This will be all within allowed game mechanics... Cheers. _________________________________________ Once I thought T2 BPO Lottery is a problem... Then I've become a part of problem and I relized that previously I was just plain jealous.
fugazii Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.11.13 18:07:00 - [28] Originally by: Naal Morno Edited by: Naal Morno on 13/11/2006 17:18:52 I said 6. Besides, since you are so sensitive to couple of extra objects out at the gate (against what CCP says this game is not playable over dial up matey)...we will just deploy our drones next time (20 ships, 5 drones each, by your counts it should be 300 drones since you can't count), we will see how you like your playability then. This will be all within allowed game mechanics... Cheers. i was actualy refering to dj lightning, but i guess now that you also said 6 i guess it 3 differant stories about the same incident,....impressive. onto the cans vr drones thing. i dont care if you feel the need to have a fleet 4+x's the size of ours deploy drones to create lag, it just goes to show how confident your fleet commander is in the pilots hes with(obviously not very,..wouldnt blame him). if you dont exploit to create lag, go for it. the minute you do exploit tho, is the minute petitions will be sent. and plz, dont try to insult us by saying we cant count. you Yourself, jst admitted to having a differant count number than 2 other of your pilots there. first rule of flaming, dont flame yourself through hypocrisy. funny tho, that the 4th largest alliance in game, one whos members have always been upstanding pvp'rs, have to resort to using shady tactics to stop 5 or so guys. lemme guess, youll be running around in ships full of bookmarks, and using log on/off tactics next?
Xendie Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.11.13 19:03:00 - [29] so what you D2 people are saying is that i am lying? that there was never more then 6 cans? well i guess i will have to call that forum propaganda somewhat. in this imagethere is 12 cans + the sec cans that some hauler dropped after being nuked. the sec cans are the one right at the gate btw. i should know i blew the guy up. not only that, after the GM's were there and removed the cans you managed to set up 7 new ones before they were also removed. who is the one who cannot count now? before you start arguing make sure you have something on your feet pls. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Mistress Suffering Einherjar Rising Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.13 19:19:00 - [30] Actually the D2 people are saying you specifically used a GM to gain tactical advantage under false pretense. We basically figure the GM in question was a FE alt. There were no lag issues involved. The only reason those cans were relevent in any way is that they were making it hard for your snipers to operate.
Xendie Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.11.13 19:31:00 - [31] Originally by: Mistress Suffering Actually the D2 people are saying you specifically used a GM to gain tactical advantage under false pretense. We basically figure the GM in question was a FE alt. There were no lag issues involved. The only reason those cans were relevent in any way is that they were making it hard for your snipers to operate. wow its not often i get called a GM alt. there was huge lag issues involved, geminate isnt the most lagfree place to start with and those cans you spammed had no effect on sniping at all apart from creating alot of lag wich isnt allowed. and as i said earlier i was the snipe bookmark in my covert ops so you dropping cans would not affect our ability to stay at sniping range. the problem is that you artificially created lag with objects that is not ment to be used as anything but storage/loot containers to gain a tactical advantage, i.e lagging them out enough so you could kill them. if you cannot use legitimate tactics to shoot at people then maybe you should quit the game if you cannot follow the rules. and if you cannot follow the rules im sure there will be some GM that in the end will remove your access to the game due to many voilations of the EULA. play hard but within the rules, dont try and cheat as it will always come slap you in the back of the head. btw, have you managed to count the cans on that pic yet? im pretty sure its more then 6. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Imation Sturm	Posted - 2006.11.13 19:32:00 - [32] LoL, 15 cans causes 20secs of lag? Are you on a 56k or just d/l **** while on EVE? What belt doesn't have 15+ cans in it?
Xendie Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.11.13 19:33:00 - [33] Originally by: Imation Sturm LoL, 15 cans causes 20secs of lag? Are you on a 56k or just d/l ** while on EVE? What belt doesn't have 15+ cans in it? geminate isnt very known for its lagfree enviroment to start with. and when someone does something like this it really lags. Quote:** Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
So'Kar Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.11.13 21:14:00 - [34] This could be easily settled once kali hits and cloaked ships can be probed out.
Naal Morno ECP Rogues Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.13 21:21:00 - [35] I consider this conversation a moot point since in Kali you won't be able to de facto exploit BM system to gain unfair tactical advantage (and push it further by petitioning people trying to catch you using valid game mechanics) like you did there. You had no gut to show up again after the first sniper run, where you failed to pop a single ship of ours with three sniping BS of yours. Apparently, where skills lack you are resorting to pitiful tactics of petitioning since we don't let you play the way you want _________________________________________ Once I thought T2 BPO Lottery is a problem... Then I've become a part of problem and I relized that previously I was just plain jealous.
Xendie Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.11.13 21:35:00 - [36] Originally by: Naal Morno I consider this conversation a moot point since in Kali you won't be able to de facto exploit BM system to gain unfair tactical advantage (and push it further by petitioning people trying to catch you using valid game mechanics) like you did there. You had no gut to show up again after the first sniper run, where you failed to pop a single ship of ours with three sniping BS of yours. Apparently, where skills lack you are resorting to pitiful tactics of petitioning since we don't let you play the way you want i still dont see how you can say that we were "de facto exploit BM system to gain unfair tactical advantage" ? you had the ability to make bookmarks, you had the ability to place ships around the gate and warp to gang members, you had the ability to use cloaked ships. yet you resorted to lagging down the gate even though you had not so far from 10-1 odds already in manpower in system. the reason we didnt warp in the second time was that you started to drop alot of cans and it was lagging like mad because of it, not because you in any way shape or form can be considered good at what you do or that we in any way remotely was afraid of you. i think we have proven our resolve to continue to kill E-U alliance and its allies in their home systems. if you just look at the first week alone that we were there we killed more ships in BWF that week alone then what the whole E-U alliance did in a whole month all over eve. if you cant handle "proper" "inside the rules" tactics without resorting to exploiting who is the pitiful one? checked the image again... yep its still more then 6cans. have you counted them yet? Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Xendie Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.11.13 21:38:00 - [37] Originally by: So'Kar This could be easily settled once kali hits and cloaked ships can be probed out. perhaps but that will still not help you as the cloaked ships would not be decloaked and the accuracy on the probing of cloaked ships would not be as accurate as probes are today. and i think they said the smaller the sig of the ship the harder to probe it when it was cloaked wich would make covert ops frigates very hard to find. and the other ships can just keep moving so you will still take large amounts of casualties as you have been doing so far. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Wendat Huron Lupus Industries	Posted - 2006.11.13 21:46:00 - [38] Is it legal to have a cargohold full of cans to lag out the campers that shoot you down? Passive resistance if you will.
Xendie Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.11.13 21:47:00 - [39] Originally by: Oceana Multiple sniper spots = multiple marker spots to try to catch you. If you don't want so many cans, don't make so many sniper spots? covert ops ship is a great snipespot. dont need so many bookmarks when you got them. i have infinte amount of snipespots in a covert ops. ill see you when you make infinite amount of cans around the gates and then we wont see you in eve at all anymore. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Xendie Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.11.13 21:49:00 - [40] Originally by: Wendat Huron Is it legal to have a cargohold full of cans to lag out the campers that shoot you down? Passive resistance if you will. there has been a couple of astral wolves and E-U alliance that has done that also. and you also have the highest amount of "ctrl+q" clicks in eve amongst them also. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Ender Hawks Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.11.13 23:25:00 - [41] F-E guys, it doesnt matter, the Gm has made it clear that using containers to gain tactical advantage is an exploit, period. D2 can argue all they want but we should refrain from this thread as the question has been answered. I posed a question regarding the use of bm's as snipe spots and if I dont receive a response then I will assume it is not an exploit.
Metlec	Posted - 2006.11.14 00:01:00 - [42] Edited by: Metlec on 14/11/2006 00:07:16 Originally by: GM Eldini Cans are for storeage. They are not to be used for anything tactical. This does not mean that you can eject 20 cans at a gate if they contain some ammo. Originally, Cans were not designed to be mined into. This is now a common a usage. Would you consider that an exploit also? If you don't want people to use them as markers, disable the ability to warp to them. 20 Cans is definately excessive. But 1 in each direction to cover is gate (6) is normally what people aim for. F-E, how many times do the D2 guys need to say it. They werent being used to generate lag.
Cosmic Flame	Posted - 2006.11.14 00:25:00 - [43] Originally by: Ender Hawks F-E guys, it doesnt matter, the Gm has made it clear that using containers to gain tactical advantage is an exploit, period. D2 can argue all they want but we should refrain from this thread as the question has been answered. I posed a question regarding the use of bm's as snipe spots and if I dont receive a response then I will assume it is not an exploit. 1. Which GM specifically said you couldn't use cans as a tactical means to warp to? All i saw was an ISD guy saying that you couldn't use them to provoke lag. Not being able to use them to provoke lag is more specific and a whole different thing than not being able to use them as a tactical advantage as a means to warp to. 2 different things, not the same. 2. GM's don't discuss exploits afaik. He may or may not answer. Doesn't mean using bookmarks as sniper spots is or isn't an exploit. Using such bookmarks is not more or less an exploit than using some cans to counter those tactics as warp in spots afaik.
Siakel	Posted - 2006.11.14 00:37:00 - [44] Edited by: Siakel on 14/11/2006 00:38:09 Originally by: Cosmic Flame Originally by: Ender Hawks F-E guys, it doesnt matter, the Gm has made it clear that using containers to gain tactical advantage is an exploit, period. D2 can argue all they want but we should refrain from this thread as the question has been answered. I posed a question regarding the use of bm's as snipe spots and if I dont receive a response then I will assume it is not an exploit. 1. Which GM specifically said you couldn't use cans as a tactical means to warp to? All i saw was an ISD guy saying that you couldn't use them to provoke lag. Not being able to use them to provoke lag is more specific and a whole different thing than not being able to use them as a tactical advantage as a means to warp to. 2 different things, not the same. 2. GM's don't discuss exploits afaik. He may or may not answer. Doesn't mean using bookmarks as sniper spots is or isn't an exploit. Using such bookmarks is not more or less an exploit than using some cans to counter those tactics as warp in spots afaik. Read the thread? Or perhaps even the quote in the post above yours?
Cosmic Flame	Posted - 2006.11.14 01:00:00 - [45] Originally by: Siakel Edited by: Siakel on 14/11/2006 00:38:09 Originally by: Cosmic Flame Originally by: Ender Hawks F-E guys, it doesnt matter, the Gm has made it clear that using containers to gain tactical advantage is an exploit, period. D2 can argue all they want but we should refrain from this thread as the question has been answered. I posed a question regarding the use of bm's as snipe spots and if I dont receive a response then I will assume it is not an exploit. 1. Which GM specifically said you couldn't use cans as a tactical means to warp to? All i saw was an ISD guy saying that you couldn't use them to provoke lag. Not being able to use them to provoke lag is more specific and a whole different thing than not being able to use them as a tactical advantage as a means to warp to. 2 different things, not the same. 2. GM's don't discuss exploits afaik. He may or may not answer. Doesn't mean using bookmarks as sniper spots is or isn't an exploit. Using such bookmarks is not more or less an exploit than using some cans to counter those tactics as warp in spots afaik. Read the thread? Or perhaps even the quote in the post above yours? Thank you, i missed the GM post which is why i asked. Still, as the post above me states, it's also true that jet cans werent meant to be mined in to and its a common practice for years now. Is that an exploit then? Bookmarks were not intended to be used as "instas" and are a common practice for years now. Exploit? I've found that up to 10 cans there isn't a significant increase in the lag. For cans to actually lag you out for 1s or 2s there has to be at least some 20 cans or so (which i don't know if it was the case). The presence of just 5 player ships induces more lag than 7-10 cans afaik. To me it seems as there is some bitterness in the OP's thread. Something didn't go according to plan perhaps?
Xendie Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.11.14 02:18:00 - [46] Originally by: Cosmic Flame To me it seems as there is some bitterness in the OP's thread. Something didn't go according to plan perhaps?[/quote nope its business as usual killing E-R and friends on a daily basis. as the thread has had its answer and discussion the mods can close it now. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
DrSIn Amarr In The Face Productions	Posted - 2006.11.14 02:33:00 - [47] lol to this. go grow up
Skidd Chung Caldari Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.11.14 03:39:00 - [48] Originally by: GM Eldini Cans are for storeage. They are not to be used for anything tactical. This does not mean that you can eject 20 cans at a gate if they contain some ammo. First of all, please ignore my affiliation as it should not have any bias to what I'm about to say. My post is at the GM whom I quoted and to all GM and CCP staff in general who are in charge/concerned with gameplay elements of EVE. To be honest I find the words of the GM I quoted disturbing. Which is to specifically identify an object and it's intended use. And no other uses for it other than it's intended use or it would be considered an exploit. Why I found it disturbing was that it limits creativity in gameplay. Let me explain. A cargo container jettisoned into space is an object in space which can be interacted with. Specifically saying the use of such a feature was only to store objects and no other use is in my honest opinion cramping our style. An interactable item such as in this case a container with creativity can be used for other things. First thing I can think of was 'can art'. Not exactly encouraged but because it can be done, it was done. It was not game breaking, a little messy and might cause 'unintentional' lag, but overall, not game breaking and pleasing. The container is now a piece of 'art'. In the case of using it to 'mark' an area so it was warpable. The intent was not to create lag. If they wanted to create lag, they would just drop cans near their gates and not at the suspected sniping spot. This improvisation is used on a lot of other combat tactics. They improvised the casual container to some sort of beacon for their ships to go to. Another one I can think of was to place a can right at the edge of a bubble to de-cloak cloakers warping in, where by it exposes the cloaker who is 'pulled' in by the bubble. A container now is adapted to be a de-cloaking device. The best use which I have encoutered was when I was chasing another interceptor in my Crow. I already had him scrambled and was closing in on him at full speed to web him. His speed was just slightly lower than mine and it was a futile attempt by him to run because I was gaining on him 500m/s at a time. When I was about 14km from him, he jettisoned a container and it floats right at me. Needless to say with some luck on his side, my ship 'bumped' off the container and loses speed and he manage to warp away. I was like "What the hell?!!", but then thought that was a really cool tactic afterwards. His improvisation at a time where he used whatever on his ship to help him get away earned my respect. It was the first time I experienced being blocked by a container while in pursuit. And in this case the container became an obstacle in a chase sequence. I have no idea what other uses a casual container would be used as but with creativity, it can be something we totaly unexpected and unprepared for. But if it enhances gameplay and not destroy it, why not allow it. If GM's were to specifically said something like, "You can't use cans for anything but storage or you can't use ships for anything but shooting or you can't use webber for anything but webbing. Ships can be fitted with guns and scramblers, but if the target is 'stabbed' up, pilots started using ships as battering rams to 'bump' their targets from allignment. Creativity leads to improvisation, even without scramblers, a ships with sufficient speed can 'knock' a target off course. Webber are to slow ships down to a crawl, but if used on a freighter which has an acceleration speed of a snail, suddenly a webber becomes a tool to speed up freighter warping. There are limitations with what we can already use and do, as long as it's intention is not game breaking, I don't see why creativity should be sacrificed with specific rules. To say "Cans are for storeage. They are not to be used for anything tactical." is just cramping our style.
Goodtime Girl Amarr	Posted - 2006.11.14 11:40:00 - [49] Edited by: Goodtime Girl on 14/11/2006 11:40:57 Using containers for decloaking and blocking ships is g4y, now its officially an exploit, about time CCP. Now remove the empty cans littered around the systems.
Alanin	Posted - 2006.11.14 11:59:00 - [50] Edited by: Alanin on 14/11/2006 12:02:58 Edited by: Alanin on 14/11/2006 12:00:35 //edit - deleted my own post cause its better not to comment on such stuff...
Mort Sinious	Posted - 2006.11.14 12:33:00 - [51] Allways funny how fast people can start a petition when they are at a disadvantage. Arguments get twisted, facts obscured. Sad story and allways the same. I was there too (this is no alt) and was part of that can tactic. I assure you there never where more than 6 cans used for our snipe spot busting. There may have been loot cans for a while, but we allways tried to pop them asap if not secure. But a fact many here completely ignore is, that even if it were 10 cans, this still would have NO impact on any lag. If it would, all asteroid bets in empire would cause node crashes and CTDs several times per hour. They don't. So unless you see hundreds of cans at spots irrelevant for tactics, stop arguing that we wanted to lag you. This is nt only untrue, it also is so absurd that there is only one reason for your petition left: You were ****ed off by that camp and wanted to pay us back via petition. So ... grow up.
Eilene Fernite	Posted - 2006.11.14 12:48:00 - [52] Originally by: GM Eldini Cans are for storeage. They are not to be used for anything tactical. This does not mean that you can eject 20 cans at a gate if they contain some ammo. Can you please distribute these words of wisdom to the rest of the GM's? So they can stop telling people 'sorry for your loss, but there is no exploit' the next time someone gets decloaked by a jetcan at the warp in point to a gate and gets promptly ganked. Thank you.
larann Gallente Paralex Research	Posted - 2006.11.14 16:19:00 - [53] I LOL @ f-e Cramping there style now who went and sat in their safe spot and distrubed the cloaked battleships. So I guess now people wont be ably to carry multiple small containers in their hold for fear of being killed, then banned for expoiting as the cans jettion. GG GM's
hexy Locus Solus	Posted - 2006.11.14 16:48:00 - [54] I say it was up to the snipers to shoot the cans, target practice 4tw
Kharak'khan Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.11.14 16:52:00 - [55] Edited by: Kharak''khan on 14/11/2006 16:54:37 Ive seen certain corps anchoring cans at moons to secure them which is not really on stopping people from putting up starbases. It also seems amazing how many alts come out of the woodwork for this, People know its wrong hence all the reaction. Please think of the cans feelings it wants to be filled with ore!!
larann Gallente Paralex Research	Posted - 2006.11.14 17:03:00 - [56] Originally by: Kharak'khan It also seems amazing how many alts come out of the woodwork for this post with your main then ffs
aim9xcite Gallente The Short Bus Squad The SUdden Death Squad	Posted - 2006.11.18 13:01:00 - [57] so if you cant jettison cans at a gate to intentionally cause lag what about people who sit at gates with crap loads of drones that do the same thing or outside a station. i lagged out all to crap when i jumped my carrier into a system just outside a station and there were six other carriers there with all their drones out. as many as 13 drones for some depending on skills so i mean if you can lag out with cans you can lag out with drones and its just as equally as annoying. in fact alot of times you cant even really use drones in combat because it does cause an excess amount of lag for you and your opponents. so what can we do about that? saddest day in EVE by far is when my sec rating went positive..(but not anymore)......giggles

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