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Tovarishch Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.11.13 07:29:00 - [1] After reading a few recent posts regarding the state of PvP in Eveà and having done some reflecting upon what I do in this gameà and whyà I wanted to take a moment out to write up a post for those of you that may not get involved in the more controversial side of EVE. Contrary to popular belief the term æPvPÆ is nearly always used improperly. People often refer to the action of shooting or destroying a ship or pod as æPvPÆ. That is entirely, and in nearly every sense of the term, incorrect. Shooting a ship or a pod would be more properly called æPKingÆà or æPlayer KillingÆ using some old MUD terminology. For years that is all anyone could really achieve in a game that pitted you against other players. You could kill them, and if the game were a bit ruthlessà as some old MUDs wereà you could take all their stuff. EVE, however, is a new tool in the hands of many minds still rooted in old ways of thinking. Sure, you can PK folks in EVEà but that does not begin to scratch the surface of what æPvPÆ entails. I basically started out EVE somewhere between being a pirate and an NPCer. Our group of friends would indiscriminately blow up anyone who was not one of us. That was the standard operating procedure of a Shriner - you blew jerks up and shared the wealth with other Shriners. That was fun, but EVE was youngà and the Shriners didnÆt take very well to spaceà so I ultimately found myself homeless. I would pirate on occasionà but my goal was to accrue wealthà so I ran missions till I could find a home. After being accepted into the MC under BDCI my perspective on EVE changed entirely. æPvPÆ (Player(s) vs. Player(s)) in EVE involves far more than blowing folks up. It involves influencing the game and the players around you. It involves changing the mapà shutting down alliances through violence, threats, diplomacy, or the use of information. Sometimes this involves combatà many times it does not. ItÆs like playing Fallout (for those who have played)à you could finish the game without firing a shot (with great charisma and some solid thinking skills)à but whether you fired a shot or notà it was most certainly æyouÆ against æthemÆ. EVE is no different. Is EVE lacking in some departments? Sure. What game isnÆt? Content is thin in many areasà and some activities (even PKing) can become tedious. IÆm not here to try to paint over some of the blemishes. However, it seems very few players ever get involved enough in this game to ever really see what EVE truly has to offer. Players become disenchanted when they canÆt use the weight of their single character to move the gameworld in which we liveà then they resort to the forums to try to wave others offà as if they are doing them a favor. In realityà they are one of many players who give up on the game after seeing only a few layers deep. EVE is not a game of quick fixes. This game has layered nuance upon nuance. If you donÆt find your nicheà who is to blame? CCP? Or you? I write this in hopes of giving newer players a pause. If you donÆt like what you are doingà try something newà try many new things. Do not grumble on the forums about lack of depth in æPvPÆ when you are confusing shooting things with a world where players really do control the outcome. This is not Counterstrike. æPvPÆ in EVE is not about activating the high-slot mods on your shipà itÆs about making an impact on the gameworld. How many other games offer PvP in the forum of economic warfare through a complex financial market? Diplomatic maneuvering? Selling services that can influence the entire map? The list goes on and on. With EVE the days of æPvPÆ being limited to running around shooting anything that isnÆt you are over. If æPvPÆ in this game seems shallow to youà IÆll contend that you havenÆt bothered thinking differently. Maybe the game isnÆt superficialà perhaps itÆs your lack of vision. All life is sacred... until the client says otherwise.
Sakura Nihil Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.13 07:34:00 - [2] /signed, a lot of good points here "Titans were never meant to be cost-effective, they're a huge ****" - Oveur
Gyrn Fzirth Minmatar Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.11.13 07:40:00 - [3] great post! The depth and breadth of this game is what has kept me playing. There is so much to do, so many things one could accomplish, of which shooty-shooty is only one... ========== CELES Killboard: http://www.celeskills.com
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.13 07:47:00 - [4] Originally by: Tovarishch However, it seems very few players ever get involved enough in this game to ever really see what EVE truly has to offer. Players become disenchanted when they canÆt use the weight of their single character to move the gameworld in which we liveà then they resort to the forums to try to wave others offà as if they are doing them a favor. In realityà they are one of many players who give up on the game after seeing only a few layers deep. EVE is not a game of quick fixes. This game has layered nuance upon nuance. If you donÆt find your nicheà who is to blame? CCP? Or you? I write this in hopes of giving newer players a pause. If you donÆt like what you are doingà try something newà try many new things. Do not grumble on the forums about lack of depth in æPvPÆ when you are confusing shooting things with a world where players really do control the outcome. This is not Counterstrike. æPvPÆ in EVE is not about activating the high-slot mods on your shipà itÆs about making an impact on the gameworld. How many other games offer PvP in the forum of economic warfare through a complex financial market? Diplomatic maneuvering? Selling services that can influence the entire map? The list goes on and on. With EVE the days of æPvPÆ being limited to running around shooting anything that isnÆt you are over. If æPvPÆ in this game seems shallow to youà IÆll contend that you havenÆt bothered thinking differently. Maybe the game isnÆt superficialà perhaps itÆs your lack of vision. You made a very good post. I think Eve could become better at showing people what the real game is, however. As a newbie, you think its about collecting iskies or killing people. When those things are just a small part of what the game really is about. On the other hand, 0.0 alliance warfare etc takes a huge amount of time and involvment in something that is just a game after all. I think thats why many people dont want to get involved in it...they want to keep the game "just a game" and not a virtual reality where you spend your entire evenings (or days). --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Athena Starfire Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.13 07:57:00 - [5] I agree with almost every point. I don't "kill other ships" (Will just start another 'what is PVP' super thead if I say PVP) I play MY Eve a different way than 'kill eveything ship I see everywhere' and so do those I play with. I have no problems with people "killing other ships" (new term "KOS") when it is MUTUALLY AGREED UPON. What I mean by 'mutually agreed' is if someone is ovbiously out looking for a fight in low-sec with a tricked-out Ferox or Raven..Thats one thing. If the people are chatting and say 'lets have at it' (mutually) no wories. But I and my evemates DO have a problem with someone blowing up someones hard made work IN HI-SEC. If someones out in < 0.5 with thier miner or indy..how is that a threat enough to warrant someone 'podding' them. I'm willing to give that a blind eye. They are after all IN a KOS'ing Area. But when someone is in an unarmed miner or indy in 0.5 and above I see no reason for someone to waste them just because they have the skills to do so in a ship that is chump change to them. They should stay the hell out of secured space and go find thier 'fun' where they are supposed to..IN A KOS Area!! Of course, I will get the bulls**t that 'EVE is a PvP Game!' blah, blah, ad nauseum..As the OP says yes its PVP.. but its NOT TOTALLY KOS!.. IMHO... KOS'ers should stay in KOS Land...Non-KOS'ers should stay out of it.. I know I will get a flamethrower up my arse for this..won't be the first time and wouldn't be the last..ask me if I care?
Tovarishch Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.11.13 07:59:00 - [6] Originally by: Jim McGregor On the other hand, 0.0 alliance warfare etc takes a huge amount of time and involvment in something that is just a game after all. I think thats why many people dont want to get involved in it...they want to keep the game "just a game" and not a virtual reality where you spend your entire evenings (or days). While I do agree with you, to some extent, that some aspects of EVE require too much time or involvement to be considered 'accessibleÆ to your average playerà that is not what I see people complaining about. If it wereà theyÆd have a point. But thatÆs not what they are arguing. They argue that æPvPÆ has no depthà when in actuality they are not at all familiar with æPvPÆ in EVE. They are simply talking about shooting things. They then go on to spread their misconceptions and misinformation to others via the forums. All life is sacred... until the client says otherwise.
Joe	Posted - 2006.11.13 08:01:00 - [7] Evertime i sell a mwd I unleash true pvp power?
James Duar Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.13 08:08:00 - [8] Great post, hit a lot of good points. Today I realized I want to train the skills necessary for region wide trading. It gives me a thrill to spot the low priced bargains and simply buy them up wholesale and put them back under a much more reasonable price. I think with the Kali contracts system and possibility of loans and other deals, market warfare is going to become a lot more vicious and cut throat since buying on margin and short selling will become genuine legitimate possibilities. Basically, EVE is a many faceted and complex game!
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.13 08:11:00 - [9] Originally by: Tovarishch While I do agree with you, to some extent, that some aspects of EVE require too much time or involvement to be considered 'accessibleÆ to your average playerà that is not what I see people complaining about. If it wereà theyÆd have a point. But thatÆs not what they are arguing. They argue that æPvPÆ has no depthà when in actuality they are not at all familiar with æPvPÆ in EVE. They are simply talking about shooting things. They then go on to spread their misconceptions and misinformation to others via the forums. Yeah, I think some players think Eve is that limited and dont understand why its such a popular game. Very much agree with you on that one. Personally, I know that the real game is in 0.0 though - I just dont want to make the time commitment to really become successful out there, because in the end, real life is what matters, no matter how fun Eve is. But yeah, people make a lot of simplifications when they say "pvp" in this game. I would say the pvp can be as simple or as complex as you allow it to be. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Athena Starfire Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.13 08:19:00 - [10] Originally by: James Duar Great post, hit a lot of good points. Today I realized I want to train the skills necessary for region wide trading. It gives me a thrill to spot the low priced bargains and simply buy them up wholesale and put them back under a much more reasonable price. I think with the Kali contracts system and possibility of loans and other deals, market warfare is going to become a lot more vicious and cut throat since buying on margin and short selling will become genuine legitimate possibilities. Basically, EVE is a many faceted and complex game! Welcome to the party, Mr. Fashionably Late! We have been doing that since day one....Scoop up some idoits order selling Omber at 50 and sell it 12 jumps away in the same region for 70+ :) If you sit at the border between regions (1 jump) you can have a 2 region 'field of play' :) We can't wait for Kali! ..
Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.11.13 08:54:00 - [11] Edited by: Plutoinum on 13/11/2006 08:57:20 Agree with your post, but pk'ing is also used as a tool of pressure and power and not just counterstrike. I read often stuff on the forums that pvp should always be fair in a way that the opponent has to have a chance, when he is engaged. I don't see it this way. Destroying the income of your opponent or make people leave their alliance by pk'ing them, when their are ratting and mining or shooting their haulers is as much ligit pvp as putting up poses and fighting fleet battles. Opponents are not the same, they have different strengths and weaknesses and usually they use their strength and try to strike the opponents weak side.
zibelthurdos	Posted - 2006.11.13 09:24:00 - [12] Originally by: Athena Starfire Of course, I will get the bulls**t that 'EVE is a PvP Game!' blah, blah, ad nauseum..As the OP says yes its PVP.. but its NOT TOTALLY KOS!.. IMHO... KOS'ers should stay in KOS Land...Non-KOS'ers should stay out of it.. there are games out there that do not allow you to fire weapons in certain areas. attacks or aggressive acts are simply blocked by the software in "non kos" areas. there are many hundreds of places in the eve universe where this is the case (for now) and these are called stations. If you are inside a station CCP has gauranteed your safety. however as there are no such restrictions on agressive acts if you are not docked, one can safely assume that CCP has made it clear that there are no "non-KOS" areas. and therefore I must say, that A) the entire eve universe is a KOS area, and B) if all you are constantly going to do is whine about it you really do need to stay out of the KOS area. my 0.0000000002 ISK (adjusted for inflation)
Athena Starfire Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.13 09:30:00 - [13] Edited by: Athena Starfire on 13/11/2006 09:30:52 Originally by: zibelthurdos B) if all you are constantly going to do is whine about it you really do need to stay out of the KOS area. my 0.0000000002 ISK (adjusted for inflation) You see thats just it...I do..I consider KOS as below 0.5..but unfortuatly I can't say the same for certain bits of human garbage in Hi Sec. And if you mean by "Stay out of the KOS Area" as stay out of EVE .. TOUGH! I'm here to stay...If you/anybody does'nt like that than you/they can leave the 'area' also! Cheers
zibelthurdos	Posted - 2006.11.13 09:36:00 - [14] Originally by: Athena Starfire Edited by: Athena Starfire on 13/11/2006 09:30:52 Originally by: zibelthurdos B) if all you are constantly going to do is whine about it you really do need to stay out of the KOS area. my 0.0000000002 ISK (adjusted for inflation) You see thats just it...I do..I consider KOS as below 0.5..but unfortuatly I can't say the same for certain bits of human garbage in Hi Sec. And if you mean by "Stay out of the KOS Area" as stay out of EVE .. TOUGH! I'm here to stay...If you/anybody does'nt like that than you/they can leave the 'area' also! Cheers well unfortunately for you CCP, the games owners and designers do not agree with your statement. and you are the one that has the problem with eve being as you call it "KOS" everywhere. and we don't mind if you stay,but if you intend to, please stop whining about how the game is intentionally designed and learn to safely play within those parameters.
Lunadi Minmatar Solar Trade	Posted - 2006.11.13 10:39:00 - [15] Bull...! Current pvp combat is just a place for people without skills to satisfy their needs to have a killboard entry. Is all about ganking, finding easy targets, using scan alts & log off tactics. Most of these players attack only if they know the game mechanics will grant them vitory. And after the easy kills they are back in the 0.0 belts to grind rare spawns for hours... -------- hate my spelling? go play SCRABBLE!
Blacklight Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.13 11:14:00 - [16] Originally by: Lunadi Bull...! Current pvp combat is just a place for people without skills to satisfy their needs to have a killboard entry. Is all about ganking, finding easy targets, using scan alts & log off tactics. Most of these players attack only if they know the game mechanics will grant them vitory. And after the easy kills they are back in the 0.0 belts to grind rare spawns for hours... You are very very wrong and that myopic view is exactly the perception that the OP is attempting to correct, in a very lucid and well thought out matter I might add. Of course some players do behave in the way you describe but far from all and not in my opinion the majority. Eve supports many different play styles including the PvP for kicks approach you elude to but as the OP is trying to point out the great depth of of Eve is found in the broader more far reaching aspects of player driven content which has it's roots in PvP. Blog
Lunadi Minmatar Solar Trade	Posted - 2006.11.13 12:26:00 - [17] Originally by: Blacklight Eve supports many different play styles including the PvP for kicks approach you elude to but as the OP is trying to point out the great depth of of Eve is found in the broader more far reaching aspects of player driven content which has it's roots in PvP. I read the OP and I agree that eve has the 'potential' to make corporations/alliances have a big impact on the game world. Although currently I can see but one alliance who did it - ISS with their ideas of space stations open to public. What 'great' impact has BoB for example? market impact with t2 bpo? controlling a few regions with nbsi - what is the impact of that? Did BoB actually created some 'new value' for eve? I remeber the last BoB announcement 'we give you war' - so basically the pvp combat part I wrote about (please don't take it as an attack on BoB, most alliance do the same) Alliances are just there to have their place of 0.0 space, gather/grind the natural resources (npc & mining) & survive. Some other are there to just use their combat advantage to pawn (exploited to the maximum as games mechanic allows). But rarely there is something 'new' that comes out of that and I don't really believe there are many hidden depth layers far far in 0.0 -------- hate my spelling? go play SCRABBLE!
Ishquar Teh'Sainte Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.11.13 12:32:00 - [18] Originally by: Lunadi Originally by: Blacklight Eve supports many different play styles including the PvP for kicks approach you elude to but as the OP is trying to point out the great depth of of Eve is found in the broader more far reaching aspects of player driven content which has it's roots in PvP. I read the OP and I agree that eve has the 'potential' to make corporations/alliances have a big impact on the game world. Although currently I can see but one alliance who did it - ISS with their ideas of space stations open to public. What 'great' impact has BoB for example? market impact with t2 bpo? controlling a few regions with nbsi - what is the impact of that? Did BoB actually created some 'new value' for eve? I remeber the last BoB announcement 'we give you war' - so basically the pvp combat part I wrote about (please don't take it as an attack on BoB, most alliance do the same) Alliances are just there to have their place of 0.0 space, gather/grind the natural resources (npc & mining) & survive. Some other are there to just use their combat advantage to pawn (exploited to the maximum as games mechanic allows). But rarely there is something 'new' that comes out of that and I don't really believe there are many hidden depth layers far far in 0.0 what "great and adorable" concepts have come out of other games?? some follow the "grind your way up to some 1337 equipment without REALLY interacting with your environement", some follow the "kill everything hostile to score some points" ... yeah - EVE has this concepts also - i won't deny it ... but EVE also has concepts like "build your own empire - have your own army and claim some unclaimed space", "you think the stock market is cut-throat? then try the EVE market to top this" and so on .. ___________________ -Skellibjalla- Life is a garden of perceptions. Pick your fruit.
Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.13 12:54:00 - [19] PvP is player versus player. PvE is player versus environment. Player Killer is a term that seems to be used exclusively by people who think they are playing HappyFunJoyJoyLaughTime-Online. Eve PvP may have great breadth and depth, but at the end of a day if you gank a frigate coming through a gate in your sniper BS (or whatever), and if that frigate was a player, it's PvP. Saying it's not because it's crappy PvP is, well, wrong. But agreed on all the other stuff. ---------- IBTL \o/
Daftex Muleson Minmatar UNITED KINGDOM MAYHEM	Posted - 2006.11.13 13:01:00 - [20] Originally by: Tovarishch I write this in hopes of giving newer players a pause. If you donÆt like what you are doingà try something newà try many new things......... .....How many other games offer PvP in the forum of economic warfare through a complex financial market? Diplomatic maneuvering? Selling services that can influence the entire map? The list goes on and on. I agree with your OP in the main, but IMHO, people who cannot dedicate several hours a day to EVE will rarely be able to "try something new" and realise the depth and complexity which undoubtedly exists as you say. If you can only make a couple of hours a week online, you need to concentrate your effort in one direction and hope the direction you choose is a good one for you. It just too expensive in skill training hours and playing hours to gain experience to chop and change much. I love the game and find it hopelessly addictive but as an occasional player, I cannot compete, in terms of game knowledge and playing skill, with those who play regularly on a daily basis so I'm always gonna be playing catch-up. So, I train up my skills so I can kit out a reasonable Frig or Cruiser and spend what time I have getting as good at flying it as possible and, in the odd hour I have, I can fly out and kill a few rats, donate a bit to my corp and have some fun as an EVE citizen. Ah well....only 30 years till the freedom of retirement
Detavi Kade	Posted - 2006.11.13 14:13:00 - [21] Being a carebear in a lowsec alliance, I have to heartily agree with the OP. I rarely engage in ship based combat, though I have been targeted by enemy factions all the time. It's just part of the game for me. They are not jerks...they are simply trying to stop me, a component of war, from contributing to my alliance's war efforts, in the form of mineral/supply acquisition. It's fairly common to see carebears label aggressors as jerks, asshats, griefers...etc. I guess I tend to buck that trend, as I simply see them as the "enemy". They are my opponent in a chess game. Just because we're trying to beat each other, doesn't make the other person bad or evil. In fact, it is more likely that I hear the terms "jerks, asshats, griefers" used by the PVP wing of my alliance. I cringe everytime I hear it. Why can't we just fight, compete, evade each other without resorting to name-calling? I got involved in this corp because they were making a strong push into lowsec, in a highly contested area. Indeed, we have been involved in many corp/alliance wars, and the political landscape in our area has changed dramatically in the months that I have been here. It's very interesting, with moves on many sides causing shifts in diplomatic relationships. I can say that I've been fairly active in the PVP side of this game, without being THAT involved in the blowing up of ships. It's fun, and I enjoy those "layers" of PVP that don't necessarily involve combat.
Crovan Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.11.13 14:34:00 - [22] I <3 Tov. Awesome post, man. I have to admit that I must sometimes remind myself of many of the same things that you bring up, mostly when Sel is making me suck roid "for the greater good." Originally by: Seleene Client - "You smash them." MC - "Ooooh! Good! Like to smash!"
Omber Zombie Gallente Frontier Technologies	Posted - 2006.11.13 16:14:00 - [23] awesome post ---------------------- [FTEK] Pwning Eve Carebear Style
Ghitza Backup Squad	Posted - 2006.11.13 16:44:00 - [24] Good post. Now please go tell that to every noob in this game (that includes even hi-sp players who thinks that they know what PvP is).
Wolfways Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2006.11.13 18:02:00 - [25] Quote: ItÆs like playing Fallout (for those who have played)à you could finish the game without firing a shot (with great charisma and some solid thinking skills)à but whether you fired a shot or notà it was most certainly æyouÆ against æthemÆ. EVE is no different. Great example. Use a game which is a solo play game and cannot have pvp in it While i agree with some of the OP, what it comes down to is people are arguing over what constitutes pvp, when it doesn't really matter. The problem with EVE is that while CCP have said that it is possible to be attacked anywhere, there are areas where Concord gives the false sense of security. Personally i don't even understand why there are levels 1.0-0.5. This false sense of security means that players in Concord "protected" areas will take less precautions and are usually newbs, so are therefore usually easier targets. Add to that you have players who only want to pve and think that as long as they stay in hi-sec they are safe. In most games the act of forcing another into your playstle was considered griefing, or just plain wrong. In EVE it is encouraged. What people who come to EVE (or even better, before they come to EVE) need to realise is that there is no pve without the risk of pvp (direct combat vs. another player). Delusions of invincibility combined with a strong homicidal urge... I have a kick-your-ass fetish
Roshan longshot Gallente Ordos Humanitas	Posted - 2006.11.13 18:27:00 - [26] I have tried just about everything Eve has to offer. Only one profession really got to me. But if you are not doing well in one then move on to another. Eve-online has too much to offer for a 14 day experience. - Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter *pirate* or mixture of them all. [i]As read from the original box.
Viktor Fyretracker Caldari Worms Corp	Posted - 2006.11.13 18:36:00 - [27] the trouble with many pvpers is they do not understand tactical warfare. if the enemy retreats you have won that battle even with zero kills but many people think they loose if they dont have a pile of kill mails.
Agent Li	Posted - 2006.11.13 18:43:00 - [28] Good post. However, it doesn't change the fact that there are f-tards whose idea of fun is to hang out at the gates and blow away anyone who comes through who isn't in their clan. Then they crow about how much damage their hit did - and four or five of them hit you within a few seconds of arrival. Personally, I don't think they look at you - they shoot first, and don't care. Yeah, that's thrilling play - to hang out next to a gate waiting for some poor ******* to come through - just so you can pod him, and claim "hey, my neutron beam did 510 points!" I guess what I'm saying is that while a rich PvP experience requires imagination, there are plenty of current players who have no ability to imagine much more than the inside of a brown paper bag.
Tovarishch Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.11.13 18:47:00 - [29] Originally by: Wolfways Quote: ItÆs like playing Fallout (for those who have played)à you could finish the game without firing a shot (with great charisma and some solid thinking skills)à but whether you fired a shot or notà it was most certainly æyouÆ against æthemÆ. EVE is no different. Great example. Use a game which is a solo play game and cannot have pvp in it While i agree with some of the OP, what it comes down to is people are arguing over what constitutes pvp, when it doesn't really matter. The problem with EVE is that while CCP have said that it is possible to be attacked anywhere, there are areas where Concord gives the false sense of security. Personally i don't even understand why there are levels 1.0-0.5. This false sense of security means that players in Concord "protected" areas will take less precautions and are usually newbs, so are therefore usually easier targets. Add to that you have players who only want to pve and think that as long as they stay in hi-sec they are safe. In most games the act of forcing another into your playstle was considered griefing, or just plain wrong. In EVE it is encouraged. What people who come to EVE (or even better, before they come to EVE) need to realise is that there is no pve without the risk of pvp (direct combat vs. another player). Firstly, my analogy of playing Fallout is most certainly relevant... they are 'similar' as I stated. The similarity that was lost on you was that of diplomacy solving problems... not whether you are being diplomatic with a human or an NPC. Secondly, nowhere is it stated that Concord is to prevent attacks in empire. Their presence is not a false sense of security if you do not make that assumption. Once again, this concept comes more from other games than anywhere else. Police do not function as a prevention... but as a deterrent... or, to use your word, 'protection'. While I personally dislike suicide attacks in empire... it's just one of the darker facts of the game... and in no way is it 'encouraged' as you say. That's overstating the issue... and misplacing blame. Becoming a victim of such attacks (or other violence or scams) is easily prevented by playing with an inkling of thought. People want the game to do more thinking for them, which in turn will provide less open-ended gameplay... and a dumbed-down gaming experience. EVE is dangerous. Those who do not like engaging their brain in order to offset some of that danger will not be happy in this world for very long. All life is sacred... until the client says otherwise.
Detavi Kade	Posted - 2006.11.13 19:41:00 - [30] Wolfways, /sigh... here we go again. This is why so many "vets", in the newbie forum area, keep pounding the same statement over and over and over... EVE is nonconsensual PVP. Even if you don't want to PVP, you're still at the mercy of others doing it (to you). The sooner new players get that into their head, the better off they will be. And yet, everytime we say this in the newbie area, someone(like you) just has to speak up and split hairs, and proclaim that "No, EVE is NOT just PVP, etc..."

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