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CobraMac
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Posted - 2003.11.10 20:50:00 -
[1]
I think this deserves a topic on its own, i noticed in the thread with the hybrid boosts they doing, the playerbase was satisfied with hybrids for the cruiser platform as it worked well and only wanted a boost in the large rails to have some balance between the weapons of choice ie Projectiles and lasers atm.
Well it started off well, but i feel now its become a fiasco, not only are hybrids getting boosted across the board it seems (to throw cruiser weapons out of wack) but now TomB as seen fit to consider Nerfing lasers as he says the crystals have too much range and too much damage.
CCP wake up, i have seen this chain of events unfolding in other online games that seem to have withered away to nothing, do not start this process of boosting and nerfing without proper adequate thought and testing, the mere fact that crystals damage is only on EM and THERMAL and as you know although that combination may be good for shields its certainly the worst for armour + structure which take up 2/3 of the total HP of a ship. Lasers have tremendous cap requirements, power requirements and what not, nerfing crystals is going to steamroll anyone out there that has invested time in this game on an Amarr ship based on energy weapons.
TomB you mentioned you wanted combat to be at larger ranges, yet you talk about frequency crystals having too much range ?
I urge you to reconsider this thought process, nerfing is not the way, small boosts are what is required, baby steps if you will.
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Nareau
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Posted - 2003.11.10 21:36:00 -
[2]
I agree with you on everything, and I just hope that they dont screw it over on us..
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Acuna Traos
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Posted - 2003.11.10 21:55:00 -
[3]
 Quote:
without proper adequate thought and testing
Thats why the changes go on the TEST server first.
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Fred0
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Posted - 2003.11.10 21:58:00 -
[4]
If they nerfed the radio crystal abit I'd still use them on my scorp.. And you get a bonus on top of that.
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Archemedes
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Posted - 2003.11.10 22:39:00 -
[5]
Well, a very minor nerf that might actually be reasonable would be subtracting 10% from the crystal range modifiers so they go from +50% to -50% like ammo does. Anything else would be overkill.
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Lentia
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Posted - 2003.11.10 22:47:00 -
[6]
Come on Cobra,
Lasers are ridiculouly powerfull and everyone knows that. I fly a Megathron and use tachyons like everyone else.
Not a single Megathron user I know uses blasters even though thats their "bonus" weapon.
Like my post in the hybrid thread says: they hit too well, too often, and too far. The no ammo cost, cargo, and reloading just adds insult to injury.
Hybrids have the disadvantage of cap and ammo and so should have the most damage, but the tracking is so bad their DoT is the worst.
Projectiles are probably next in line to be nerfed because why should they do so much damage with no cap. People will start to switch maybe from lasers to projectile but still no1 will use hybrids.....
Lentia
Military Officer
http://www.staf.online-guild.com/ |
Xander Teg
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Posted - 2003.11.10 23:22:00 -
[7]
Right now there is no reason to use any other L turret then lasers. Everyone uses L laser turrets, even on ships that do not give a bonus for them, because they are so much superior to anything else.
The fact that they only do EM and Thermal Damage is part of what makes them so superior. Through the use of shield boosters everytime you kill a ship, about 70-80% of the total damage you do is to shields, so weapons that do higher damage to shields have the advantage.
The fact that everyone uses them is a sign of poor poor balance. My suggestion would be to not nerf lasers but to improve hybrids. Right now tachs are in an entire different league of turret. With 4250 grid requirement it will have the best stats in the game and it should. Rather then nerf tachs though i would suggest adding a 4250 equivalent of projectiles and hybrids. Currently the best proj has grid req of 3250 and the best hybrid has a grid req of 2750.
_________________
"For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack."
-Rudyard Kipling
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CobraMac
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Posted - 2003.11.10 23:24:00 -
[8]
crystals are not overpowered, you cant claim something is overpowered on the basis of rails being slightly underpowered for battleships, thats flawed logic, and just look at the numbers game, laserrs have a cap penalty, power penalty and a resistance penalty on armour + structure if you will, so in fact by nerfing lasers one will go back to the very begining in this game, ie the weapons of choice will once again be projectile followed by hybrid and lasers. I'm tired of Nerfs, hybrids required a small tweak on the high end and now its turning into a nerf for lasers and next one for projectiles, and so we go on, a while ago CCP boosted lasers, now its being nerfed, doesnt sound to me like adequate testing and thought is going into this if it is realised in the end.
Testing on Chaos ? i'm sorry, but the only testers i have confidence are the bug hunters, johnny come tester doesnt cut it if hes trying to prove a point, seen this in other games.
A small tweak is all that is needed and then an evaluation of it on the server, baby steps, do it slow so as to have the minimum negative effect that requires another patch and a load of angry players pls.
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CobraMac
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Posted - 2003.11.10 23:28:00 -
[9]
The fact that they only do EM and Thermal Damage is part of what makes them so superior
Wrong unless you are firing with one gun and shield boosters can keep up, your biggest obstacle in killing a ship will be the armour/structure and therefore the thermal+EM is not the best to do that, best would be Explosive/kinetic.
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Nareau
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Posted - 2003.11.10 23:29:00 -
[10]
Quote:
My suggestion would be to not nerf lasers but to improve hybrids. Right now tachs are in an entire different league of turret. With 4250 grid requirement it will have the best stats in the game and it should. Rather then nerf tachs though i would suggest adding a 4250 equivalent of projectiles and hybrids. Currently the best proj has grid req of 3250 and the best hybrid has a grid req of 2750.
Now thats a good idea, having a Tach equivalent of Hybrids and Projectiles. But other than that I wouldn't change lasers at all, maybe the crystals a bit but not much and don't add any more weight to the crystal we're suppossed not to have ammo.. so it shouldn't feel like ammo. The reason I'm Amarr and using lasers cause I hate carrying ammo.
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Teeth
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Posted - 2003.11.10 23:45:00 -
[11]
I'll agree that it might be better to not touch lasers until after boosting hybrids (otherwise you get a teeter-totter effect). Maybe reducing the range and damage slightly would be ok but don't nerf them too much, they eat a boatload of cap. I just have a hard time trusting a nerf to just be the gentle tap it needs to be and not the super destruction approach it's been in the past.
I only ever hear people complain about L hybrids, other types seemed decently balanced, no?
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.11.10 23:46:00 -
[12]
Let's stick to the facts, shall we?
- crystals not overpowered
The highend large ammos for pros amd hybrids deal a total 44 damage and have a -50% range malus. The multifreq, though, deals 48 and has only a -40% range penality.
It's even worse for lowend ammo and radio - lowend large pro/hybrid 16 damage and 30% bonus while radio is 32 and 60% bonus - TWICE as much.
HELLO? Can you tell me please in simple words why crystals are not overpowered???
- "lasers are the worst for 2/3 of the ship"
No, they are not. Why? Unlike armor, structure has NO resistances. So, basically, they can kill shields te easiest and armor the worst and are equal for structure with other weapons. The disadvantage you speak about does not exist.
And that it's better on shields than on armor is just another advantage since shields are a lot easier to fortify and repair than armor.
free speech not allowed here |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.11.10 23:51:00 -
[13]
Edited by: j0sephine on 10/11/2003 23:56:15
Just to add some more facts, repost from the other thread...
"lasers are only good for shields" myth
damage dealt using large guns:
* lasers; multifrequency crystal. raw damage is 20 hp emp, 28 hp therm. reduced by natural resistance, the damage dealt to shield is
20 + 22.68 = 42.68
and to armor
8 + 15.68 = 23.68
... resulting in average damage of 33.18 hp
* hybrids. antimatter ammo. 24 hp kin, 20 hp therm of raw damage.
against shield: 14.4 + 16.2 = 30.6
against armor: 18 + 11 = 29
average: 29.8 hp
* projectiles. with combination of emp ammo against shield and fusion against armor, damage dealt is:
against shield: 20 emp, 16 exp, 8 kin = 20 + 6.4 + 4.8 = 31.2
against armor: 28 exp, 8 kin = 25.48 + 6 = 31.48
... giving average of 31.34.
(average calculated with equal weights for shield and armor... in practice, thanks to shield hardeners and boosters the shield has actually larger weight, giving the lasers even more advantage)
damage over time
(using damage * damage multiplier / rate of fire)
* long range guns (40+ k optimal range)
tachyon: 33.18 hp * 0.34 = 11.28 hp/sec @ the cost of 10 cap/sec
mega beam: 33.18 hp * 0.31 = 10.13 hp/sec @ 7.7 cap / sec
425 mm rail: 29.8 hp * 0.27 = 8.27 hp/sec @ 3.8 cap / sec
1400 mm: 31.34 hp * 0.21 = 6.58 hp/sec @ 0.13 cap/sec
* medium range guns (20+ k optimal range)
heavy beam: 33.18 hp * 0.45 = 14.93 hp/sec @ 5 cap/sec
dual 250 mm rail: 29.8 hp * 0.25 = 7.61 hp/sec @ 3.3 cap/sec
1200 mm: 31.34 hp * 0.18 = 5.73 hp/sec @ 0.15 cap/sec
800 mm: 31.34 hp * 0.24 = 7.46 hp/sec @ 0.47 cap/sec
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Kayosoni
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Posted - 2003.11.10 23:58:00 -
[14]
Don't forget that Radios also do 100% worth of damage to structure (all 32 points), from such a long range.
-----------------------------------
Currently Playing Lineage 2 - Erica Server |
CobraMac
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Posted - 2003.11.11 00:21:00 -
[15]
My apologies, was not aware that structure has no resistances as in practice it seems to take a heck of alot longer to take down armour/structure than it does shields.
Lasers have MUCH larger power requirements
Lasers Have much larger cap consumption
While ships could fit an additional large gun of the hybrid or projectile type, tach equipped ships can only moount so many before you start to sacrificing badly needed module space for power issues and then of course you can only fire so many for so long before you sacrificed all your low slots on power mods, bah its pointless, if a path has been set all i can say is hold on to your seats because here we go again on a rollercoast ride of nerfs and boosts, my only hope is someone out there has the sense to think this thing through properly taking into account every possible permutation of possible configs otherwise.......
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.11.11 00:34:00 -
[16]
Lasers have a bigger power grid need than the 425 rails or the 1400 artillerys, but, in case you missed it, amarr ships have a MUCH larger power grid as well.
free speech not allowed here |
Roba
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Posted - 2003.11.11 01:03:00 -
[17]
Yup 15000 pwr grid and one heck of a capac battery, And since skills work with %, they get alot more outa skills that effect pwr and capac.
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rage3d
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Posted - 2003.11.11 01:08:00 -
[18]
i thourght hybrids had problems and ecm is in dev thing and now lasers seem to be the subject on devs mind ?
i gonna go off and wonder about my sub actually going to go watch tv or run around the block hmm
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Molly
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Posted - 2003.11.11 02:28:00 -
[19]
Lasers are so overpowered because someone thought it would be good to nerf the tactical shields from 70% to 50% :-(.
--
Kasha > Mastema, face the reality: All the juicy dots are gone.
-- |
Automatic Jack
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Posted - 2003.11.11 03:54:00 -
[20]
Quote:
Let's stick to the facts, shall we?
- crystals not overpowered
The highend large ammos for pros amd hybrids deal a total 44 damage and have a -50% range malus. The multifreq, though, deals 48 and has only a -40% range penality.
It's even worse for lowend ammo and radio - lowend large pro/hybrid 16 damage and 30% bonus while radio is 32 and 60% bonus - TWICE as much.
HELLO? Can you tell me please in simple words why crystals are not overpowered???
Not to add fuel to the flames here (lets keep this civilized  ). But another point in laser turret's favor is minimal time to switch crystals on the turrets. 10-sec on projectiles, hybrids, and missles to switch ammo types (or... reload). Crystals are damn near 1 sec. This too is somewhat unbalancing.
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ga'ia
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Posted - 2003.11.11 05:16:00 -
[21]
Edited by: ga'ia on 11/11/2003 16:05:39
http://www.fanta.dk/showmovie.asp?mid=3045AB5E-DCEB-4DBD-B4AF-678A5523056A
my 2 cents... 
__________________________________________________________ |
Kaylon Syi
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Posted - 2003.11.11 06:14:00 -
[22]
You started it first 
http://www.fanta.dk/showmovie.asp?mid=2AEB3FE1-3BB5-4A71-8260-34A2B6172EDD
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qrac
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Posted - 2003.11.11 08:43:00 -
[23]
if u think tachyons are overpowered then check this out projectile dmg
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Insanes numquam moriuntur! |
Drago Musevni
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Posted - 2003.11.11 08:50:00 -
[24]
The only problem I see with beams as they stand is the fact that you can fit so many Tachyons on to a ship at one time. I always saw these guns as being your big hitters, the guns where you had one or two to really punch some big-ass damage to help your main weaponry. Unfortunately right now you have ships that use them as their exclusive weapon.
Personally I only have 2 installed on my ship, they compliment my MEga Beam I, Mega Pulse and medium blasters (Megathron Pilot). I think if rather than messing with Crystals or the damage beams do or the cap usage, that if the fitting requirements for the biggest nastiest guns in the game were altered so you could only fit one of two of them then it would persuade people to mix their loadout rather than strapping on as many of the biggest thwacking sticks they possibly can then fill the rest of their slots.
I also don't just meant alter the fittings for Tachyons, I mean introduce a Tachyon sized Hybird (and proj if one isn't already there) and match fitting requirements too. This in my view would shift the balance in what loadouts are used.
As people have already pointing out, the hybrid problem is not helped by the fact that the 425mm rails are being compared to Tachyons, which are plainly a level above them in the fittings stakes. The Mega Beam I is a closer match for the 425mm rail, this leaves us thinking are other weapons going to be introduced that can be compared...
________________________________
"You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So, now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe."
--Marcus |
Arthur Guinness
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Posted - 2003.11.11 10:06:00 -
[25]
as noted before it's not an option to get a new big ass hybrid gun that uses as much grid as the tachs.
Compare mega and apoc powergrids ....12k vs 15k, that's 1/4 more. So obviously the energy turrets are supposed to use more powergrid. Makes sense as they're called _ENERGY_ Turret.
So 425s should be slightly better than mega beams but not as powerfull as tachs.
Adjusting the freq crystals is ok. |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.11.11 10:23:00 -
[26]
"if u think tachyons are overpowered then check this out projectile dmg"
Nice stats, but what's the pilot's skills and the ship setup? Because if projectiles could be brought to this point starting from weaker (in comparison with tachyons) base, then who knows how far the tachyons with the dedicated platform could be improved from their base stats... ;s
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Dreez
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Posted - 2003.11.11 11:18:00 -
[27]
Lasers dont need a Nerf.
Projectile dont need a Nerf.
Hybrids needs Boosts.
425¦s are sniping guns and need more
hittingpower then they currently do.
Blasters need to have much longer range
then the present one.
You simply cannot hit a Ship in combat with
Antimatter Amo/Large Blasers , the Blasters
simply dont have the tracking for it.
CCP wanted Blasters for Close Combat, make them
track as close-combat guns then... you should
not be forced to use Trackin-Comps for
good hits.
I bet i can arm an Apoc with 8 Anodes+4 dmg mods
and do more dmg then an Megathron with
4 Blasters per second.
'Trying to argue logically with Evol is like trying to teach a pig to dance. It only makes you look foolish and really annoys the pig ' - Duke Droklar [OC]
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qrac
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Posted - 2003.11.11 11:19:00 -
[28]
Quote:
Nice stats, but what's the pilot's skills and the ship setup? Because if projectiles could be brought to this point starting from weaker (in comparison with tachyons) base, then who knows how far the tachyons with the dedicated platform could be improved from their base stats... ;s
i don't know what skills he has but i would guess the setup is a tempest with low slots filled with dmg mods. if someone could get some stats for an apoc with tachyons maybe we can compare dot.
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Insanes numquam moriuntur! |
Khonsu
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Posted - 2003.11.11 13:27:00 -
[29]
lol, guys.. you know very well that when CCP nerf, they DO A HECK OF A JOB!! If they nerf crystals they will be made 110% useless :) All crystals will have -99% range and damage!  
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TomB
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Posted - 2003.11.11 14:42:00 -
[30]
Thread started: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=42728
Read the post, this is just the start to even the charges out, more changes will most likely happen. Complain with out testing and I will make a  smiley
"Where is my hat?" |
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