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Serendipity007
X.T.R
Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.15 02:30:00 -
[1]
Mods: Please forgive me if this is an overlapping thread, but I believe that this issue deserves its own thread.
The Myrmidon Gallente Battlecruiser right now only has 100 m^3 of dronebay.
In every single PvP test that I have done, even using 10 Medium Drones, my Drones are destroyed too quickly, and I am left with virtually no firepower.
Being a specialized drone user, this makes this ship pointless for me to fly. It simply can't hold enough drones to sustain a fight. The DPS is comparable to a Vexor. Even the argument for "its versatile because it can use different drones" doesn't hold much water, because I can't put many spare drones in the first place!
In my opinion, the dronebay needs to be increased. 200 m^3 sounds about right.
People have made the argument that Heavy Drones are for the Dominix. To be honest, the best DPS a Dominix can have is with Sentry drones anyways. If DPS is such an issue, then lets reduce the bonus to 7.5% per level, so its not threatening the uber DPS of a Domi.
So, should we add dronebay or not? My vote is a resounding YES!
Please no flaming, no caldari-hate, or trolling allowed. Anyone caught posting dishonorable texts shall be visited by the silly-string ninjas in the middle of the night.
___________________________________________________
"I'm an engineer, not a miracle worker!" - Scotty, Star Trek: The Original Series |
Protunia
Gallente
Horadrim
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Posted - 2006.11.15 02:41:00 -
[2]
maybe 125 m3?? that would give it 5 heavy drones ;)
but is that a drone ship?? and what do the other race ships that are comparable have for drone bays??
My Character Stats |
Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.15 02:46:00 -
[3]
If you're using Medium drones, you'll struggle to out-damage a Vexor, anyhow. And at under a 6th of the price, It looks like T1 cruiser beats brand new BC.......
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.15 02:56:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Patch86
If you're using Medium drones, you'll struggle to out-damage a Vexor, anyhow. And at under a 6th of the price, It looks like T1 cruiser beats brand new BC.......
To clarify what I meant:
It has a 10% per level drone damage bonus, exactly the same as the Vexor. They can both fly a maximum of 5 at a time.
It has 5 turret HPs, while the Vexor has a modest 4.
Vexor has 5% per level medium turret damage bonus- thats 25% at level 5- thats the equivalent of 1 extra turret. Both ships now have the firepower equivalent of 5 turrets.
Myrmidon has a 7.5% per level repper boost (37.5% at level 5). But, it also has a Sig Rad of 300m, compared to the Vexors SR of 150m.
Myrmidon is slower.
Mymidon costs 30something million, Vexor costs less than 5 million.
For the benefit of a slightly better tank, I honestly don't think its worth an extra 30 million over a Vexor. Certainly isn't the match of an Eos or Astarte.
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Zeknichov
Amarr
Black Avatar
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.11.15 03:04:00 -
[5]
A dev has responded on the BC topic. He said upping the drone bay size is a problem because then it can use 5 heavies. This means there is no hope for the myr as a droneboat. Remove the drone bonus give it a turret bonus and keep everything the same. Voila we have our new BC.
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Attak
Trioptimum
FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.15 03:08:00 -
[6]
Yes please. 150m3 or 200m3 is good. Able to field heavy drones with a backup set of medium/lights, or a few extra heavies. Puts DPS on par with the other BCs, and with the longer combat it'll still be a gamble of keeping enough drones on the field to be effective.
In short, why not?
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.15 03:10:00 -
[7]
How about upping the Drone bonus? 15% per level, instead of 10%? Atleast then with mediums it'll have an appreciably better DPS than the Vexor...........even if it is still peanuts compared to the other Tier 2 BCs.
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Quilan Ziller
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Posted - 2006.11.15 04:58:00 -
[8]
This issue has been discussed over, and over, and over in a couple of old Myrmidon threads,
and in the Tier 3 Battlecruiser sticky thread.
Consensus reached by most people was that yes, Myrmidon DOES need more drone bay - and needs it badly.
The ability to launch 5 heavy drones does not make the Myr overpowered - it just makes it competitive with
other Tier 3 BCs. With current 100 m3 it is just a 40 million ISK Vexor - no more, no less.
The only people who were objecting to any drone bay increase were the usual "nerf Gallente" camp
(I bet they will post to this thread too - but last time the issue was brought up they did lose the argument).
Posting and arguing in this new thread might not be the most productive thing right now.
What I would like to hear, though, is the official dev position on the issue.
Is the Myrmidon drone bay size going to be increased?
As it stands now, Myr is really unbalanced against the other 3 Tier 3 BCs.
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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.11.15 06:46:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Patch86
Originally by: Patch86
If you're using Medium drones, you'll struggle to out-damage a Vexor, anyhow. And at under a 6th of the price, It looks like T1 cruiser beats brand new BC.......
To clarify what I meant:
It has a 10% per level drone damage bonus, exactly the same as the Vexor. They can both fly a maximum of 5 at a time.
It has 5 turret HPs, while the Vexor has a modest 4.
Vexor has 5% per level medium turret damage bonus- thats 25% at level 5- thats the equivalent of 1 extra turret. Both ships now have the firepower equivalent of 5 turrets.
Myrmidon has a 7.5% per level repper boost (37.5% at level 5). But, it also has a Sig Rad of 300m, compared to the Vexors SR of 150m.
Myrmidon is slower.
Mymidon costs 30something million, Vexor costs less than 5 million.
For the benefit of a slightly better tank, I honestly don't think its worth an extra 30 million over a Vexor. Certainly isn't the match of an Eos or Astarte.
Myrmadon has 6 turrets not five, that was changed in the second SISI kali build.
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Arktaos
Minmatar
The Bratwurst Burglars
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Posted - 2006.11.15 07:57:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Arktaos on 15/11/2006 07:57:31
Just change the 10% dmg/HP per level to +25 m3 dronebay at per lvl, so 225 m3 dronebay at lvl 5.
Not as much dps as a domi and more dps than a vexor.
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Quilan Ziller
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Posted - 2006.11.15 08:09:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Patch86
Originally by: Patch86
If you're using Medium drones, you'll struggle to out-damage a Vexor, anyhow. And at under a 6th of the price, It looks like T1 cruiser beats brand new BC.......
To clarify what I meant:
It has a 10% per level drone damage bonus, exactly the same as the Vexor. They can both fly a maximum of 5 at a time.
It has 5 turret HPs, while the Vexor has a modest 4.
Vexor has 5% per level medium turret damage bonus- thats 25% at level 5- thats the equivalent of 1 extra turret. Both ships now have the firepower equivalent of 5 turrets.
Myrmidon has a 7.5% per level repper boost (37.5% at level 5). But, it also has a Sig Rad of 300m, compared to the Vexors SR of 150m.
Myrmidon is slower.
Mymidon costs 30something million, Vexor costs less than 5 million.
For the benefit of a slightly better tank, I honestly don't think its worth an extra 30 million over a Vexor. Certainly isn't the match of an Eos or Astarte.
Myrmadon has 6 turrets not five, that was changed in the second SISI kali build.
6 turrets... But not much in terms of power grid, and no turret damage bonus.
It is also really slow, thus the 6 blasters won't be of much consequence.
It is really unbalanced. The DPS is almost the same as you get from a Vexor.
It is just not worth the money.
Vexor is just better due to its higher speed and agility, and more cost- and skill point-effective.
If Myrmidon is released to TQ as it is, I predict it to be a "noob ship".
I.e. a ship that every noob jumps into, only to be ganked by more experienced pilots in the short order.
Increasing the drone bay to 150 or 200 m3 will NOT mean Myrmidon=Domi.
*Myrmidon cannot fit large NOS or large armor repairer
*Myrmidon has no gun bonuses, and cannot fit large turrets
*Overall HPs and capacitor are approximately 1/2 of the Domi
*Domi, with its 375 m3 drone bay, can field much more diverse arsenal of drones,
and will have more spares
If Myrmidon is forced to use medium drones, it will be a 30 million Vexor.
Having two more bonus-free turrets and three extra spare drones does not cut it.
4 heavy drones is also not a viable solution, since the setup becomes too predictable.
Drones will be killed first, then the ship itself.
And DPS from 5 heavy drones is not all that terrible. In fact, 5 heavy drones are needed
for Myrmidon to barely match the Brutix.
Read the following 2 threads for more (heated) Myrmidon discussion, DPS calculations,
and reports of actual testing on Serenity.
Linkage
Linkage
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Tyler Lowe
Minmatar
DROW Org
Sylph Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.15 08:21:00 -
[12]
The perfect solution to this was proposed already.
here
J.A.F.O.
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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.11.15 08:27:00 -
[13]
I was just mentioning that it does in fact have 6 turrets, a 20% increase in effective turrets over a cruiser V Vexor.
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Zyrtan Keb'Lektar
The Scope
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Posted - 2006.11.15 08:39:00 -
[14]
-Bigger drone bay but drone damage bonus restricted to light and medium drones
-additional low slot to compensate the lack of "gankage". The myrmidon has to tank better then the other Tier2 BCs
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KillmAll187
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Posted - 2006.11.15 09:37:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Zeknichov
A dev has responded on the BC topic. He said upping the drone bay size is a problem because then it can use 5 heavies. This means there is no hope for the myr as a droneboat. Remove the drone bonus give it a turret bonus and keep everything the same. Voila we have our new BC.
The irony kills me. An actual CCP staffer can say this rubbish and at the same time introduce the Caldari tier 2 BC. I sometimes wonder if they even know how to undock from a station.
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MECTO
Xenobytes
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2006.11.15 11:02:00 -
[16]
if it can't field 5 heavy drones without more in dronebay - this ship is total useless  even with 5 heavyies it don't deal hurricane, harbringer or drake dmg, so wtf? don't argument the domi here - u hate it
It's Great Being Carebear in Kali - aint it?
Originally by: Tuxford
In this picture you might think that Gallente totally pwn. Well they're alright
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Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.11.15 11:07:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 15/11/2006 11:08:16
The ship is a joke if it can only use medium drones, it'll only even begin matching the DPS of the others in full-gang suicide mode at 1-3km range, while the others are in balanced tanking mode. Pitiful. With mediums, the drone DPS is equal to a Vexor. Sure, a Vexor won't tank as well, but we're comparing a 4-5mil cruiser to a tier2 bc here.
It needs heavies to function as a bc-size drone ship. Period. And no, boosting the drone damage mod and only applying it to mediums is not a good idea, you do *not* want to see medium drones doing near-heavydrone damage trust me.
Increase drone bay to 200-300m3. Remove 1-2 turrets. Done.
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Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.11.15 11:12:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Zyrtan Keb'Lektar
-Bigger drone bay but drone damage bonus restricted to light and medium drones
This would do nothing for the ship. You can already fit enough mediums on it, that's not the point. The point is that mediums do crappy dps for a ship of this class.
And no, adding yet more tank to it won't help either. A ship that just tanks but does nothing else well is useless (I refer you to the ****ation, Sacrilege and others like it). Not that the Myr active tank bonus is all that useful in Kali combats anyway, compated to plates and passive shield tanks.
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Serendipity007
X.T.R
Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.15 15:45:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Serendipity007 on 15/11/2006 15:51:02
I agree, the Myrmidon (according to the bonuses) is a Drone/Tank ship. Lose 2 turrets, change the model, and give it the dronebay it deserves. (250m^2) Giving it another gun it can't fit that it doesn't get a bonus for, doesn't cut it.
Oh and changing the drone bonus to a gun bonus would just turn it into another version of the Brutix. BAD IDEA.
The problem as I see it, stems from the fact that they nerfed the number of drones controlled awhile back. Maximum of 5 except for those non-existant Guardian Vexors and Carriers. This made it more difficult to balance regular drone ships as they all launch 5 drones NO MATTER WHAT.
If it takes reducing the drone bonuses to 7.5% to increase the dronebay and not have the DPS of a domi, then so be it.
Please, give it the dronebay it needs to be competitive with other Tier 2 BC's.
___________________________________________________
"I'm an engineer, not a miracle worker!" - Scotty, Star Trek: The Original Series |
OneSock
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Posted - 2006.11.15 17:31:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Serendipity007
Mods: Please forgive me if this is an overlapping thread, but I believe that this issue deserves its own thread.
The Myrmidon Gallente Battlecruiser right now only has 100 m^3 of dronebay.
In every single PvP test that I have done, even using 10 Medium Drones, my Drones are destroyed too quickly, and I am left with virtually no firepower.
Posted on the other thread. Give it an uber drone HP bonus and maybe a bit more of a drone damage bonus. Problem solved.
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Wicaeed
Amarr
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.11.15 17:34:00 -
[21]
I fail to see why Gallente pilots don't understand why the Myrm can't have a 125m drone bay...simply put, it would have the same DPS as a Dominix...
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Max Hardcase
Art of War
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.15 17:58:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Max Hardcase on 15/11/2006 18:00:08
Change the drone bonus to 12.5% or 15%/lvl medium and light drones.
125 m3 dronebay
Out damages the Vexor when using medium or light drones, has more room for backup drones ( since no point in using hvy drones ).
Still << DPS than hurricane or harbinger or drake.
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Vincent Almasy
Gallente
The Underground
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Posted - 2006.11.15 18:01:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Wicaeed
I fail to see why Gallente pilots don't understand why the Myrm can't have a 125m drone bay...simply put, it would have the same DPS as a Dominix...
...Domi has a 10% drone boost per BS level for one, for two it *can* use large hybrids but no one ever uses them really even tho a snipe domi with sentry can do 400+ dps at 75km. and a blaster domi can do 1000dps with t2 heavies.
Myrm needs a 7.5% drone damage bonus and keep drone bay at 100m^3. Mid drones are cruiser rank drones, heavies are battbleship class drones, remember that. and give thw myrm a 5% turret boost but give the brutix another open spot and have it as a missile hard point. My ideas are based off of using a brutix = Mega jr and Myrm = Domi jr
also all gallente ships have a 5% turret boost none should be left out, the extra slot will open a brtix to run 7 turrets running and a tractor beam and maybe a 2.5%-5% tracking boost
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Chandeka
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Posted - 2006.11.15 18:07:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Wicaeed
I fail to see why Gallente pilots don't understand why the Myrm can't have a 125m drone bay...simply put, it would have the same DPS as a Dominix...
I agree. Dominix can use 5 hvy's, Myrmidon can use 4. 4 is enough for a BC.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.15 18:16:00 -
[25]
Myrmidon now has 6 turrets. It also got a extra low slot so it now has 6 low slots. The ship is pretty good now imo.
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Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Joe Richter
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Posted - 2006.11.15 18:23:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Wicaeed
I fail to see why Gallente pilots don't understand why the Myrm can't have a 125m drone bay...simply put, it would have the same DPS as a Dominix...
Without its tank or cap warfare capability. Your point?
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Hllaxiu
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.11.15 18:26:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Chandeka
Originally by: Wicaeed
I fail to see why Gallente pilots don't understand why the Myrm can't have a 125m drone bay...simply put, it would have the same DPS as a Dominix...
I agree. Dominix can use 5 hvy's, Myrmidon can use 4. 4 is enough for a BC.
It should out damage the Ishtar, just as the Brutix outdamages the Deimos...
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Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson |
El'jonson
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Posted - 2006.11.15 18:30:00 -
[28]
The Myr will cost twice the cost of tier 1 bc so thats about 45mil. Therefore unless it has the firepower (drone wise) of near a Domi I can't see this ship being used at all, why send 45 mil when u can save a bit more and buy a Domi that can fit more drones, armor, larger guns, nos etc.
Anyone who says this ship will be ok using med or light drones obviously isn't a drone specialist. The drone bay needs to be increased to 225m3 which is half way between vexor and domi, maybe more considering this is surposed 2 be a drone boat.
I'm all for scrubbing 2 turrets and their highs if I can get a drone ship that doesn't rely on having to get into blaster range in order to do enough damage.
As the Myr is now I see no point in releasing it if you want a short range blaster ship go bye a brutix and you can get two for the price of a Myr. I think the Devs should start from scratch and build us a decent drone boat.
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Rafein
Eye of God
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.15 18:38:00 -
[29]
Give it a 200m Drone bay and Special: -50% damage/HP of heavy drones. All problems solved.
The trick to the Myrmidon is playing to the ships bonuss. Both of them. Fitted well, with guns as well as drones, it is comparable to a Heavy missile Drake (HAM's are overpowered, so let's not start that debate)
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Iyanna Swift
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Posted - 2006.11.15 18:41:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Myrmidon now has 6 turrets. It also got a extra low slot so it now has 6 low slots. The ship is pretty good now imo.
Though not the solution I was hoping for, I think this does make the ship significantly more worthwhile.
But the question remains, if it's not supposed to be a drone boat why does it have a drone bonus? So switch the bonus or give it more bay.
Another thing which may help: reducing the sig radius of drones by 20%. This makes them die less, and more importantly, does it a lot more for small drones (which the myr uses).
It's a far better ship with the extra low though, the turret hardpoint is nice but not nearly the same impact.
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