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Kali - The end of guerrilla warfare and our way of life?

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Agent Li Galactic Defence Consortium	Posted - 2006.11.16 16:17:00 - [31] IMHO, stealth should be rather like submarines in real life. Yes, if you drop enough probes, you should be able to find one - it should be a game of cat and mouse. There shouldn't be a mod that doesn't have a countermod.
Sales Merchant	Posted - 2006.11.16 16:18:00 - [32] Originally by: Rawthorm 2)More front line use of carriers/motherships Capital ships need a big boost in hitpoints to justify using them in frontline fighting. As it stands the cost:hitpoints ratio for capital ships is very bad.
Vizgoth	Posted - 2006.11.16 16:32:00 - [33] Rawthorn, you talk as if AFK cloaking is a random occurance. It isnt and it happens everyday and in large ammounts in 0.0. I have seen 1-15 man blobs at least a couple times a week in 0.0 doing this. BoB, RA, GoonSwarm, Ka-TeT, AAA, just to name a few in the last month. BTW goonswarm does it the most Anyway, it is a bad problem and can shut down a whole region from mining/ ratting for hours and hours. Who wants to sits in a system in a gang looking for cloaked ships for hours knowing you will never be able to find them and they may be afk. That takes away the fun of the game for hundreds of players. IMO they should 1) kick people who have been idle for 45 min. (no it does not happen atm) 2) make cap use a lot heavier for non cov ops ships. Cov ops cant do much alone so it isnt so bad with them but, when you got an astarte and arazu cloaked in your system from down time to down time, even those 2 ships could pose a serious prob for any non cap ship.
Lochmar Fiendhiem Caldari International Multi-Player Consortium Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.11.16 16:34:00 - [34] Edited by: Lochmar Fiendhiem on 16/11/2006 16:38:12 Personally, think all the people that prey on the weak need to grow a set of they're own. Instead of whining that a cheap gank will no longer be available, try being more creative. Can't sit in the same safe while cloaked and afk? guess what, too bad! Most smart people who can't cloak usually warp between safes in a system to avoid being scanned. Now your precious cloaker will have to do the same. This isn't an issue of being able to find cloakers, this is an issue of cloakers being no longer to exploit normal game mechanics to cause as much fear and uneasiness as possible. Now you can't go afk or just sit in one spot for extended periods of time, you'll actually have to do something while waiting for that cheap gank. And AFAIK cloakers will not appear on scanner, you'll have to use SCAN PROBES to find them. A regular scan using the scanner will still return no results. If your corp is based around cloaking (OP) then you'll have to adjust as people know you do this and yes they will be expecting it so yes you will be at a disadvantage. But right now, the cloakers that sit afk all day and do nothing while safed are using game mechanics and there is nothing that can be done to find them. RNF in catch is a good example. 3 or 4 cloakers sit there all day and ever now and again some ill-prepaired hauler gets popped. Annoying? yes. Anything we can do? no. They fly stabbed mwd cloakers so by the time the hauler is hit, even if we do lock him, he can still warp away and rarely come into scram range himself as the mwd insures a speedy get a way. But to the OP, this issue will affect you less, as you seem to be on the move frequently, and will only truely affect you if your sitting at a safe waiting. Even if they do manage to scan you, they still need to uncloak you. If your using a mothership then at some point you will have to uncloak it to use it, at which point it is vulnerable anyways. This will only really affect the people that exploit cloaking and just sit afk in systems all day long. EDIT: auto-lg off after 30-45min of inactivity could help curve this issue, but who's to say that the cloakers won't download a random click macro to prevent the autolog? maybe a message that pops up in a random location. "you have been inactive for 30 minutes. You will be logged off in 1 minute unless you press OK". Have the box appear in a random location so a macro can't pick it up on the screen and then unless the pilot "OK"s the box, they will be logged off once the timer is up.
Imperil Northern Intelligence SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.16 16:34:00 - [35] Originally by: Ar3s Edited by: Ar3s on 16/11/2006 16:15:43 A ship that is designed to be "invisible" should stay "invisible". All other ship types that fit cloaking devices should have the ability removed ..... They are "invisible", they are cloaked. Just because a ship is cloaked does not mean that its sensors cant be cought up and scanned. Cloaking is just like "blending-with-the-background". Support POS Overhaul - Read it NOW!
maarud Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.16 16:50:00 - [36] Originally by: Imperil Originally by: Ar3s Edited by: Ar3s on 16/11/2006 16:15:43 A ship that is designed to be "invisible" should stay "invisible". All other ship types that fit cloaking devices should have the ability removed ..... They are "invisible", they are cloaked. Just because a ship is cloaked does not mean that its sensors cant be cought up and scanned. Cloaking is just like "blending-with-the-background". That statment and the one about submarines just gave me an idea. Cloaked ships, that are not covert in design, should have their scanner disabled while cloaked. You should be able to turn this on, but it should cost you, like 90% cap and if you do have it on, probes deisgned to locate cloaked ships, will be able to find you. It's a rough idea... not sure if I actualy like it... maarud. Proudly a Ex-BYDI member
Locke DieDrake Human Information Virus	Posted - 2006.11.16 16:58:00 - [37] Originally by: Rawthorm Originally by: maarud Originally by: Rawthorm Still even with some middle ground, should the active cloakers be penilized because of a few lame AFK'ers? If afk cloakers are a problem then introduce a 30 min log off system for idle ships. Would probably free up server resources and cut the number of people in Jita by about 1/4 AFAIK, this in place. I know if I'm afk, my client disconnects me, sometimes after a bit of time, other times after a longer length of time. But there are some not-so wholesome corps/alliances out there that use very dirty tricks, like perhaps a macro, doing stuff on the interface, keeping the client alive. Is that fair, no. Can we prove it, no. Is there anything we can do about it, no. If it's not in place, then yes, I agree that there should be a forcefull disconnect on a client that has not had any "use" in about 30mins of last action, but I still think you should be able to probe a cloaked ship to a degree, even if they made it some ridiculous combination of lvl V skills, like "understanding cloaking perfectly", prequisites to scan cloaked ships, Cloaking V, Survey V and Astrometrics V. This is a game of risk vs reward and no single tatic should be unbeatable, even cloaking. Ahh the risk and reward arguement. Thing is there is no reward from sitting in a safe being cloaked (safety isnt a reward. I get that if I stay logged off) therefore there shouldnt be any risk. First, let me say that I agree that cloaked ships and especially cloaked cap ships should have awesome uses. Much the way you are currently using them. I have to say I think that is sweet. (are you recruiting?) Second, I do want to add something, but first you need to know a little history so you understand why I think this. I was in IRON for nearly a year. I spent most of that time in 0.0, fighting. My single biggest annoyance was hostile ships that are able to operate in hostile territory, with 0 chance of being cought unless they want to engage. It should not be possible for hostile ships in hostile space to be "safe" in any way. If you are operating on someone elses turf (empire or 0.0, turf is turf, sov is different), then you should be at their mercy if they decide to come after you. It should be easy to probe out ships. And it should be much harder to probe out cloaked ships. But under no circumstances should it be possible for a hostile ship to safe spot and be SAFE. You want safety, dock, or get to a friendly POS. Those should be the only real options for a hostile fleet to get safe. Logging out is an entirely differnt subject... which we will see much more of after the new scanning and probing system comes into play. Because for most people, the only way to stay safe under the new system is to SS, log out, and log in an alt. The fact that doing this protects your ship entirely, is a DEEP flaw in the game. In short, I don't want to see good play styles like "the esstablishment" has get destroyed. But even more important to me is that crappy play styles and meta-gaming cheats need to be addressed before we can balance the rest of the system. The Deeper you stick it in your vien, the deeper the thoughts there is no more pain.
Christos Hendez The Priory Shroud Of Darkness	Posted - 2006.11.16 17:08:00 - [38] Cloaked ships should use charges. Similar to cap boosters that have to be loaded into the cloaking device. Balancing the size of charge (both weight and what the cloak can fit) and duration can then be tested easily. Hows that for a compramise?
Agent Li Galactic Defence Consortium	Posted - 2006.11.16 17:09:00 - [39] You could even make something like a launchable smartbomb drone - kind of like depthcharges in antisubmarine warfare.
Zebler Four Horsemen	Posted - 2006.11.16 17:49:00 - [40] I like the new ideas. I don't think it will affect the creative active player a great deal. Inactive players will get ganked, afterall its only fair. I don't see what the problem is to be honest. With only a little time you can work out what the establishment tactics are. You know they are there, and if they are active then you will not be successfully able to probe them out. As always, people will just move. The ability to sit cloaked, at a gate for hours and hours just waiting to pop someone is unfair. People need a counter. We also need a counter to login traps. Establishment tactics currently make use of IN GAME tactics to get a gank. But others just use one cloaked ship, or an alt, and then all login at the right time.....that also needs fixing. For every offense there should be a defense.
Aakron Hybrid Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.16 17:55:00 - [41] surely if you move, whilst cloaked, by the time they probe your location you've moved another 100km away? ---
Ed Gein Dark Blade Incorporated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.11.16 17:57:00 - [42] Originally by: Aakron surely if you move, whilst cloaked, by the time they probe your location you've moved another 100km away? Scan probing in kali is lightening fast, and ships don't move all that fast cloaked. Especially ones not using cvops cloakers. -------------------------------------------------------------- What do you call the person that brings a gun to a knife fight? The Winner.
Agent Li Galactic Defence Consortium	Posted - 2006.11.16 17:58:00 - [43] Originally by: Aakron surely if you move, whilst cloaked, by the time they probe your location you've moved another 100km away? Just like antisubmarine warfare. Both sides have tools, both sides should use their brains.
Audri Fisher Caldari The Keep THE R0CK	Posted - 2006.11.16 18:27:00 - [44] Originally by: Rawthorm Originally by: Rod Blaine Well, i can agree with your point. I see what you do as largely similar to the use of cloaked interdictors. I like cloaked interdictors alot :p But, on the other hand, cloaked afk recons and covert ops in relatively densely populated areas in 0.0 have way too much effect on the practical possibility for locals to move around freely. Put ten people afk under cloak in a central system in Curse. Put 5 more afk cloaked in 5 systems around it and half of your enemies will feel unable to move around. Add one or two cloaking dictors and you are completely suffocating enemy ability to move without even being at your keyboard. That I do find a problem. Even without the afk component those enemies are way too hard to force out fo their safespots. The question is what to do about it... Personally, I wouldn't mind adding a timer that simply kicks people in space from the game after 30 minutes of inactivity, or only allows normal (non-covops) cloaks to be active for ten minutes at a time, with a 10 minute timer before you are able to activate again. But we all know that those wouldn't solve the issue either. So what would ? Basing scanning on sovereignty ? Only adds more incentive to anchor more of those stupid pos's. Base it on the number of people scanning for you when you are cloaked ? Meh. I don't know. I agree that simply making cloaked ships show on scanner is wrong, but the alternative sucks too. Yea I can see why that could be an issue, but then again is it CCP's place to compensate for peoples lack of balls to come out and play when there is a lone hostile in system? In some respects its been benifitial in helping some people find their spine again. last time I checked, you couldn't "grow some balls" and go play with the afk covie ops pilots. once you get the covie ops into a system and safespotted. They are invulnerable. You can never get them out. That is a problem. The OP makes a very good point though. there are very definate tactical uses for cloaks. What is really happening is that some covie ops pilots are ruining it for everyone.
Godar Marak Amarr Return Of Red Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.16 18:34:00 - [45] Originally by: Agent Li IMHO, stealth should be rather like submarines in real life. No. Sub,marines hide in an limited amount of space, covert ops hides not only in an unlimited amount os space but is also using electronics to actually make it untracable. Thats been the concept so far, but now they are changing that. -------------------- \0/\0/\0/\0/\0/ Cant we all just get along? Wheres EVE heading?
Saladin Minmatar V I R I I Center for Disease Creation	Posted - 2006.11.16 18:41:00 - [46] I think this change is rubbish and defeats the whole purpose of cloaking. If someone does not have the balls to undock that is not my problem. Maybe this is CCPs way of bringing cloaking mods prices down. ----
Rafein Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.11.16 18:52:00 - [47] TBH, it's the way Eve should be. Everything should have a counter, if you fit for it. Weapons Vs. tank, MWD vs. Webs, Tracking computer vs. Tracking disrupters. Sensor booster Vs Dampners., ect, ect, ect. Please let us know what the current counter to cloaking is on Tranq. All CCP is doing is allowing Probes, if you fit them, to be a counter to cloaking.
Cyrus Graham Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.16 18:54:00 - [48] This is something that I will watch with great interest, as I have put the majority of my points into being efficient in a Cov Ops Ship(which I can't yet afford, much less the cloaking device), so if this change invalidates what I've been working toward, I'm pretty much back at square one since I havent trained to be good in any other type of ship yet. If you knew the number Of the steps you'd ever take Bitter, I wonder Would you run or cease to walk?
Daos Leghki Paxton Industries	Posted - 2006.11.16 18:55:00 - [49] I don't see what the hubub about probing down cloaked ships is. If you're actively hunting around, even with a non-covop ship, you can just warp off when they get to you, as you'll likely be many km away. If you're in a covop, you can warp off and have them not even notice it. The ability to (slowly) probe down cloaked ships will only affect people who sit AFK. And sitting cloaked AFK is lame and should not be rewarded. Repopulate Low-Sec
Verone Veto.	Posted - 2006.11.16 19:02:00 - [50] Quote: Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1) - Cite This Source cloak /kloʊk/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[klohk] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation ûnoun 1.a loose outer garment, as a cape or coat. 2.something that covers or conceals; disguise; pretense: He conducts his affairs under a cloak of secrecy. ûverb (used with object) 3.to cover with or as if with a cloak: She arrived at the opera cloaked in green velvet. 4.to hide; conceal: The mission was cloaked in mystery. [Origin: 1175û1225; ME cloke (< OF) < ML cloca, var. of clocca bell-shaped cape, bell; see clock1] Enough said I think. Being cloaked should mean BEING CLOAKED. What's the point in a cloaking device if it still leaves you open to detection?
Rawthorm Gallente The Establishment Establishment	Posted - 2006.11.16 19:03:00 - [51] Originally by: Daos Leghki I don't see what the hubub about probing down cloaked ships is. If you're actively hunting around, even with a non-covop ship, you can just warp off when they get to you, as you'll likely be many km away. If you're in a covop, you can warp off and have them not even notice it. The ability to (slowly) probe down cloaked ships will only affect people who sit AFK. And sitting cloaked AFK is lame and should not be rewarded. Thats a bit of a gamble isnt it? Considering the much higher efficiancy of the new system, its alot harder to notice when your being probed down, your likely to have a force on top of you in a very short amount of time, and if they have an arazu with them there is simply no way you can uncloak and make a run for it.
Saladin Minmatar V I R I I Center for Disease Creation	Posted - 2006.11.16 19:06:00 - [52] The "counter" or disadvantage of a cloak is that your ship moves slow and you cant lock for a long time after decloaking. You cant fire or defend yourself while cloack. The covert ops cloaking device is an exception to some of those rules, but you pay through the nose for the device and you pay through the nose for the ship. Now with scanning them out their role has been eliminated. If a fleet wants to know if its being scouted all they have to do is use the scanner. Once the general area of the cov ops is known they will know which part of the gate snipers will come in. Forget about sneaking up and setting a perfect warp in to kill a hapless NPC'er, the scanner will make sure you are as visible as an EvE player at a playboy party. CCP has become like a big political entity that only commicates in opposites. It wants to encourage small groups but makes it much harder for them to function. It wants carriers as front line ships but continues to gimp them. ----
Rafein Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.11.16 19:12:00 - [53] Originally by: Verone Quote: Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1) - Cite This Source cloak /kloʊk/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[klohk] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation ûnoun 1.a loose outer garment, as a cape or coat. 2.something that covers or conceals; disguise; pretense: He conducts his affairs under a cloak of secrecy. ûverb (used with object) 3.to cover with or as if with a cloak: She arrived at the opera cloaked in green velvet. 4.to hide; conceal: The mission was cloaked in mystery. [Origin: 1175û1225; ME cloke (< OF) < ML cloca, var. of clocca bell-shaped cape, bell; see clock1] Enough said I think. Being cloaked should mean BEING CLOAKED. What's the point in a cloaking device if it still leaves you open to detection? Good, now look up what the definition of to Probe is, and see how they will be balanced in Kali. Cloaking is to Hide, and Probe is to search for.
Rawthorm Gallente The Establishment Establishment	Posted - 2006.11.16 19:23:00 - [54] Edited by: Rawthorm on 16/11/2006 19:27:28 Originally by: Rafein Good, now look up what the definition of to Probe is, and see how they will be balanced in Kali. Cloaking is to Hide, and Probe is to search for. Lets forget about argueing the finer details of cloaking for a second because you know mine and others views on it, but lets look at the progression here: Ship at object > find with scanner > ship goes to safe > use probes > ship fits cloak > ship is uncatchable but imobilized Now lets look at that this becomes in Kali: Ship at object > find with scanner > ship goes to safe > use probes > ship fits cloak > again use probes I dont know about you but probes seem to now be countering two things here. Where is the progression?
Alekseyev Karrde The Royal Guard	Posted - 2006.11.16 19:26:00 - [55] The sub warfare analogy is most appealing to me. A cloaked ship could be discovered based on two things, one being action by the cloaker and the other action by the hunters. A cloaking device, to me, should function alot like the silent propulsion system employed by the Red October in The Hunt for the Red October (tm Tom Clancy). To normal scanning, it should be undetectable even very close up but for a verrrrrrrry faint chance. Such chance could be whilst warping or perhaps when the cloaks timer cycles, maybe it has a chance of being scannable if someone happened to be looking at the right time. On the hunters end, aside from watching their scanner like a hawk for a lil transient blip, the main detection action would be proximity and probes. Proximity is kind of a no brainer. Probes i think of as "active" sonar. If a cloaker is "pinged" by probes, it should be located and a certain, though limited, amount of information about the ship be conveyed. Maybe size would be appropriate (frigate, cruiser, Mothership) etc.
Rafein Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.11.16 19:28:00 - [56] well, then answer my point about everything in Eve having counters, if you fit for them. In your opinion, what should cloaking's counter be?
Verone Veto.	Posted - 2006.11.16 19:30:00 - [57] Originally by: Rafein well, then answer my point about everything in Eve having counters, if you fit for them. In your opinion, what should cloaking's counter be? Not being able to be detected unless something gets in your range and uncloaks you. Simple.
Rawthorm Gallente The Establishment Establishment	Posted - 2006.11.16 19:31:00 - [58] Originally by: Rafein well, then answer my point about everything in Eve having counters, if you fit for them. In your opinion, what should cloaking's counter be? Manual decloaking (ah the days of pilot skill and the psycology of the hunt) if its on a gate or at any object. If its in a safe then nothing. In this game even counters have counters and at some point one ends up winning over the other. In this instance the cloak should sit as king of the hill as when cloaked you cant do squat to anyone.
Rawthorm Gallente The Establishment Establishment	Posted - 2006.11.16 19:38:00 - [59] I'd also like to bring up another point, what counter do we have to probes? Ah thats right the cloak What you want is role reversal...one that leaves the expensive hard to fit mod being countered by the cheap easy to fit one...
Rafein Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.11.16 19:41:00 - [60] Originally by: Rawthorm I'd also like to bring up another point, what counter do we have to probes? Ah thats right the cloak What you want is role reversal...one that leaves the expensive hard to fit mod being countered by the cheap easy to fit one... not being where they are looking.

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