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Jovius Marginus
Black Avatar Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.11.18 06:37:00 -
[1]
Well since we havent been on this whine for awile and its seems to be whining season...
Nag ftl
For a large POS the Rev can fit pulses (and still be inside optimal range) while Nag and Moros have to fit rails/artys.
In most situations Nag has the worst dps, the worst capacitor, only 11 slots for tanking ( as opposed to 12 for the other dreads), and the smallest amount of armor against all the other armor tanking dreads. The Nidhoggur also has the worlds most pointless bonus.
Minnie capitals need a huge boost or the other races need a nerf.
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Paigan
Amarr Katsu Corporation
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Posted - 2006.11.18 11:01:00 -
[2]
Your own sheet says that the nagl has the second highest short range dps value (after the moros with its imba drones).
I really don't see your problem.
What i do see as a problem with the naglfar is, that fitting 3 damage mods (2x3 needed because of the mixed weapon system that is punished by the senseless slot system) leaves you with almost no tank.
Apart from that, if you don't fit for damage mods but for a sustainable tank, the nagflar has both very high short range or long range damage.
Revelation in comparision does pretty pathetic if you want to have enough energy to run the repper continously in siege mode. -- This game is still in beta stage |
Aloysius Knight
Minmatar Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.18 11:11:00 -
[3]
change the Nidhoggur bonus to -10% cap use for arrays and then it will be a real front line "medic"
until that happens or something else is added it will stay the worst of all the carriers
common tux i ******* dare u to post here and say it will get fixed within a year http://www.stevie.prince.dsl.pipex.com/AloysiusKnight.jpg http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/2107/nodecrashsiggb9.jpg Chose one, you must. Two is the way of pure ebilness, and pure ebilness is bad -ReverendM |
Kaylana Syi
Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.11.18 11:34:00 -
[4]
The problems with the Naglfar come from its slot loadout. 2 turrets and 2 launchers really hurt this ship. Being both a Naglfar pilot and a Nidhoggur pilot I can 100% agree with Jovius on this.
Consider the two tank setups for a Naglfar :
Shield tank ( aka gank ) to take advantage over its DPS
HIGH-SLOTS : ~~~~~~~~~~~~ > [90000 | 112] Citadel Torpedo Launcher I > [90000 | 112] Citadel Torpedo Launcher I > [123750 | 52] Quad 3500mm Siege Artillery I > [123750 | 52] Quad 3500mm Siege Artillery I > [100000 | 100] Siege Module I
MED-SLOTS : ~~~~~~~~~~~ > [75000 | 300] Capital Shield Booster I > [ 0 | 55] Dread Guristas Shield Boost Amplifier > [ 0 | 27] Dread Guristas Invulnerability Field > [ 0 | 27] Dread Guristas Invulnerability Field > [ 1 | 10] Shadow Serpentis Sensor Booster
LOW-SLOTS : ~~~~~~~~~~~ > [ 1 | 17] Internal Force Field Array I > [ 1 | 0] Co-Processor II > [ 1 | 24] Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System > [ 1 | 24] Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System > [ 1 | 20] Domination Gyrostabilizer > [ 1 | 20] Domination Gyrostabilizer
Armor Tank ( aka the el cheapo aka the more viable tank )
HIGH-SLOTS : ~~~~~~~~~~~~ > [90000 | 112] Citadel Torpedo Launcher I > [90000 | 112] Citadel Torpedo Launcher I > [123750 | 52] Quad 3500mm Siege Artillery I > [123750 | 52] Quad 3500mm Siege Artillery I > [100000 | 100] Siege Module I
MED-SLOTS : ~~~~~~~~~~~ > [ 1 | 10] Shadow Serpentis Sensor Booster > [ 1 | 11] Cap Recharger II > [ 1 | 11] Cap Recharger II > [ 1 | 11] Cap Recharger II > [ 1 | 11] Cap Recharger II
LOW-SLOTS : ~~~~~~~~~~~ > [125000 | 75] Capital Armor Repairer I > [125000 | 75] Capital Armor Repairer I > [ 1 | 44] Armor Explosive Hardener II > [ 1 | 44] Armor Kinetic Hardener II > [ 1 | 44] Armor Thermic Hardener II > [ 0 | 3] Dark Blood Capacitor Power Relay
What do you see here? The obvious that if you want to soak the most profit from split weapons you need, 100% without a doubt cause it just won't fit without it, faction gear. It doesn't have the CPU to fit gank and have a tank without it.
To armor tank it is really the only way to ensure you can run a tank forever. Realistically a Phoenix can armor tank a similar setup and get double damage bonus to its weapons when using kinetic citadels. There is a very small scenario where the Naglfar's 4 weapons will shine out for you in comparison.
Yet... the pheonix can also switch to a more down to earth costing shield tank because of the 125TF CPU leverage. Then on top of that it can add gank ability. In nearly every situation the Naglfar will be fielded there is 1 constant... it needs a sensor booster or it will always be in danger of not having range. Again the Pheonix has 22 base km more range and its guns aren't dependant on optimal and falloff. Not to mention a gank setup on the Nag leaves 4 mids to shield tank where the Pheonix will have 6.
The Amarr and Gallente suit their roles with their mids and their lows. It is the Naglfar that needs expensive gear to exploit its strengths. It is the Naglfar that needs two capital weapon systems to just fill its highslots to use its bonuses.
Now...
The Nidhoggur is fine if they would give
a) 5% minmatar fighter damage and all fighter hitpoints per level
OR
b) 12.5% maximum jump range per level
Option A puts the Nidhoggur on the path of the Thanatos and option B puts the Nidhoggur in a class of its own where its distiction would derive from its ability to go where no other carrier can. Since the bonus is linked also to the mothership this would give the Hel an advantage that no mothership could claim.
Both would be viable options in my mind.
Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.11.18 11:40:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Ath Amon on 18/11/2006 11:51:34 nag imo need a 6th midslot...
it uses 5 high to do comparable dps with ships that uses just 4 and with damage mods (rigs?) config it get even less dps... so in the end it lose a tank/energy slot compared to other dreads...
is also nice to see that in dreads... where alpha can still count something minnie one (minnie was supposed to be an "alpha" race) have the worst one...
and adding... it need some rework even with pg/cpu... it have pg/cpu "balanced" for 3 weapons, not 4...
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.18 12:16:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Kaylana Syi
The Nidhoggur is fine if they would give
a) 5% minmatar fighter damage and all fighter hitpoints per level
OR
b) 12.5% maximum jump range per level
Option A puts the Nidhoggur on the path of the Thanatos and option B puts the Nidhoggur in a class of its own where its distiction would derive from its ability to go where no other carrier can. Since the bonus is linked also to the mothership this would give the Hel an advantage that no mothership could claim.
Both would be viable options in my mind.
I quite like this idea, option B. It stays in line with the concept of Minmatar as "fast" and would facilitate the guerilla tactics they're supposed to be famous for. -----------------------------------------------
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Jovius Marginus
Black Avatar Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.11.19 05:33:00 -
[7]
bump so devs can see
Also Kaylana agrees with me never though I would see that. Would you agree the vaga needs a wcs bonus? ;-)
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2006.11.19 06:05:00 -
[8]
You know, that jump range bonus sounds quite cool, altho 12.5% is a tad extreme. 5%, maybe 7.5% per level might be worth looking into though. It'd give the carrier a unique role, other than its current role (village idiot).
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Omatje
Minmatar Confederation of Red Moon Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.19 10:13:00 -
[9]
Allthough jumprange bonus might sound cool, it doesn't help when they are used in fleet ops since you will have cyno's around at the opt ranges of the bulk of your capital ships. That would mean that in the end you will only save a bit on fuel. I rather see a different bonus on the poor Nid.
And i agree, the Nag with artillery has **** poor dmg output coming with a weaker tank then the other dreads have when under heavy fire.
If you fit 6x2500's you have a very tough time making hits when shooting a large tower, a large percentage of the shots will miss when you have to use your weakest ammo to be able to hit at all. So the only time you will have more dammage output then 2 other dreads is when you are shooting medium and small towers.
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prathe
Minmatar Omega Enterprises Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.20 01:32:00 -
[10]
Edited by: prathe on 20/11/2006 01:33:32
Originally by: Patch86
Originally by: Kaylana Syi
The Nidhoggur is fine if they would give
a) 5% minmatar fighter damage and all fighter hitpoints per level
OR
b) 12.5% maximum jump range per level
Option A puts the Nidhoggur on the path of the Thanatos and option B puts the Nidhoggur in a class of its own where its distiction would derive from its ability to go where no other carrier can. Since the bonus is linked also to the mothership this would give the Hel an advantage that no mothership could claim.
Both would be viable options in my mind.
now thats brilliant
a or b ill take it
* edit yes B would seem to be better
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Jovius Marginus
Black Avatar Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.11.20 02:52:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Jovius Marginus on 20/11/2006 02:52:48 My idea give the Nid a 25% fighter tracking per lvl =)
Also give the Nag another low slot and boost the stats for XL artys and give XL ACs abit more obtimal and falloff. Also increase the cap to atleast what the phoenix has and same armor as the Moros.
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Synapse Archae
Amarr Solarflare Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2006.11.20 02:56:00 -
[12]
Why does no one just fit autocannons on it, and be the highest damage dread in their group? (I'm betting the moros brought rails) ~ ~ ~
Originally by: The Knight True, in fact...I think it was during the battle of the bulge when we first realized the Germans were using WCS. |
Jovius Marginus
Black Avatar Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.11.20 03:14:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Jovius Marginus on 20/11/2006 03:15:06
Originally by: Synapse Archae Why does no one just fit autocannons on it, and be the highest damage dread in their group? (I'm betting the moros brought rails)
Because you have to be outside a large POS shields so you miss alot and end up using 4x as much ammo as artys while doing less dps.
Also you have to remember these stats are with max skills so with moderate skills the nag falls even farther behind with its dual damage bonus. Also it has to max out both missles and gunnery instead of one or the other.
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Kaylana Syi
Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.11.20 04:11:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 20/11/2006 04:11:57
Originally by: Synapse Archae Why does no one just fit autocannons on it, and be the highest damage dread in their group? (I'm betting the moros brought rails)
The fittings I setup can easily be exchanged to autocannons. The ship still suffers from the same problems with AC or Artillery. It just can't take advantage of its layout unless you drop far more isk on it than the others. That is not balance.
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia You know, that jump range bonus sounds quite cool, altho 12.5% is a tad extreme. 5%, maybe 7.5% per level might be worth looking into though. It'd give the carrier a unique role, other than its current role (village idiot).
You do know that 12.5% at level 5 for a rank 14 skill ( carrier ) only gives 2.5 levels worth of a rank 9 skill?
Originally by: Omatje
Allthough jumprange bonus might sound cool, it doesn't help when they are used in fleet ops since you will have cyno's around at the opt ranges of the bulk of your capital ships. That would mean that in the end you will only save a bit on fuel.
Jumprange gives the ship a role. Taking your ship into places no other ship can get into on 1 try. Carriers can take interceptor and cruiser gang refills that are quite effective to hurt your enemies.
The bonuses also pass on to motherships and this is an very effective bonus for the HEL.
A tracking bonus on the minmatar carriers is a good idea but you might as well consider that a damage bonus. As long as its a good bonus I will be happy. Tracking, racial damage and hitpoints, 12.5% jump range... etc.
Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
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haq aan
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Posted - 2006.11.20 22:27:00 -
[15]
bump for DEVs
I really want to see a reason for training Minmatar Capitals,..
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JForce
The Arrow Project The ARR0W Project
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Posted - 2006.11.20 23:12:00 -
[16]
As someone training Minnie capitals I too would like to see this addressed
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.20 23:15:00 -
[17]
Indeed bump. The more I think about it, the more I like the sound of it.
Not only is a jump range bonus unique (no other race has anything like it) it fits perfectly with the Minmatar concepts of hit-and-run, guerilla warfare, and Thukker nomadism.
Even if the bonus was put on without a single other change (meaning it'll still fight exactly like it does now), it's uniqueness will mean people will actually have a reason to train it (and make all those who already have trained it happy chappies, too). -----------------------------------------------
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meppa
Black Omega Security The OSS
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Posted - 2006.11.20 23:34:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Jovius Marginus For a large POS the Rev can fit pulses (and still be inside optimal range) while Nag and Moros have to fit rails/artys.
Since when have autocannons and blasters been weapons you fire withing optimal? Those two weapontypes both use their very long falloff to hit targets. Taking this into account you will deal around 75% of max damage against large pos while hugging the forcefield and using autocannons which is still more then what you hit with artilleries. With around double tracking when compared to pulse lasers and no cap to activate i consider it fair tradeoff weapon wise.
Nevertheless mixed weapon systems do cause problems but i don't think that huge boost is needed on dreadnought. Mayby some small tweak like increasing citadel launcher rof bonus to 7.5% instead of 5%?
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Jovius Marginus
Black Avatar Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.11.21 04:16:00 -
[19]
bump so devs can see
Also Nag with XL ACs does about the same dps as Artys at 35km and uses 4x the ammo with less range and alpha.
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Imhotep Khem
Total Mayhem.
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Posted - 2006.11.21 19:10:00 -
[20]
It was a complete disservice when they did this to Minmatar. Its like CCP didn't give enough of a **** to really pay attention. They threw split weapons at Minmatar, then backported it to other currently useless Minmatar ships (Breacher, Typhoon) to make it look like it was thought out.
Train two "primary" systems, taking twice the time, for 1/2 the benefit. Thing of beauty. ____ "If your not dyin' your not tryin'." "Are you prepared to go all the way, Alexi?" DuGalle |
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NocturnalDeath
Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.11.21 23:42:00 -
[21]
The Nag needs something to make it worth training, purchasing, and gimping your setup with 2 weapons systems.
The Nidhoggur's role really should be to be a big logistics ship, to do this effectively it needs a reduced lock time bonus.
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Jurushy
SteelVipers YouWhat
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Posted - 2006.11.21 23:45:00 -
[22]
instalock vor gangmates as bonus and the nidhoggur would be perfect
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.21 23:48:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Jurushy instalock vor gangmates as bonus and the nidhoggur would be perfect
TBH, thats something all ships should have. Logisitics cruisers are already useless enough at PvP, if only they could rep their friends without having to go through the pallava of targetting them, getting autotargetted back, etc........ -----------------------------------------------
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Jovius Marginus
Black Avatar Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.11.22 03:51:00 -
[24]
Nag needs another slot and more cap/armor Nid needs a new bonus and more cap/armor
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Omatje
Minmatar Confederation of Red Moon Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.22 09:56:00 -
[25]
Would be nice if we could get some response.
I know all staff is working like crazy to get Kali finished, but hey, these are expensive ships with limited roles, you should make them worthwile.
ps: no, pos shield boosting bonus is not a bonus
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.22 22:20:00 -
[26]
I feel the need to harmlessly bump this........... -----------------------------------------------
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Jurushy
SteelVipers YouWhat
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Posted - 2006.11.22 22:28:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Patch86 I feel the need to harmlessly bump this...........
lol i want do the smae and search for this but u was a little faster than me
Well TUX
u can nerf and boost the new schips really fast (hurrican drake myrmidon abaddon ...) can u do it the same whit the older ships too (espazialy the minmatar capships) they are over one yera ingame and in my opinion this is enought time of beeing "not so good as the others" time for a "bee as good as others (or even a lite more o reimbuse the time we WAIT! )
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Lenaria
Caldari Draconis Navitas Aeterna
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Posted - 2006.11.23 00:01:00 -
[28]
Originally by: meppa
Originally by: Jovius Marginus For a large POS the Rev can fit pulses (and still be inside optimal range) while Nag and Moros have to fit rails/artys.
Since when have autocannons and blasters been weapons you fire withing optimal? Those two weapontypes both use their very long falloff to hit targets. Taking this into account you will deal around 75% of max damage against large pos while hugging the forcefield and using autocannons which is still more then what you hit with artilleries. With around double tracking when compared to pulse lasers and no cap to activate i consider it fair tradeoff weapon wise.
Nevertheless mixed weapon systems do cause problems but i don't think that huge boost is needed on dreadnought. Mayby some small tweak like increasing citadel launcher rof bonus to 7.5% instead of 5%?
Dont tell something you dont know. Hitting in fallof is usefull, but its always gimp your damage. The thing with dreads is such what even against medium tower you AC and blaster damage is gimped by falloff so much what you get better DPS with artillery.
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Lenaria
Caldari Draconis Navitas Aeterna
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Posted - 2006.11.23 00:06:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Lenaria on 23/11/2006 00:08:06
Originally by: meppa
Originally by: Jovius Marginus For a large POS the Rev can fit pulses (and still be inside optimal range) while Nag and Moros have to fit rails/artys.
Since when have autocannons and blasters been weapons you fire withing optimal? Those two weapontypes both use their very long falloff to hit targets. Taking this into account you will deal around 75% of max damage against large pos while hugging the forcefield and using autocannons which is still more then what you hit with artilleries. With around double tracking when compared to pulse lasers and no cap to activate i consider it fair tradeoff weapon wise.
Nevertheless mixed weapon systems do cause problems but i don't think that huge boost is needed on dreadnought. Mayby some small tweak like increasing citadel launcher rof bonus to 7.5% instead of 5%?
Dont tell something you dont know. Hitting in fallof is usefull, but its always gimp your damage. The thing with dreads is such what even against medium tower you AC and blaster damage is gimped by falloff so much what you get better DPS with artillery (btw, why you even speak about tracking? You will not hit even another dread from 50km if its moving...) And yes, huge increase is dont needed. Probably even 7.5% would do. Nidhoggur carrier is another matter... i would prefer 10% better tracking for drones per lvl, or something like it...
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Jovius Marginus
Black Avatar Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.11.23 01:13:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Jovius Marginus on 23/11/2006 01:14:12
Originally by: Paigan Your own sheet says that the nagl has the second highest short range dps value (after the moros with its imba drones).
I really don't see your problem.
What i do see as a problem with the naglfar is, that fitting 3 damage mods (2x3 needed because of the mixed weapon system that is punished by the senseless slot system) leaves you with almost no tank.
Apart from that, if you don't fit for damage mods but for a sustainable tank, the nagflar has both very high short range or long range damage.
Revelation in comparision does pretty pathetic if you want to have enough energy to run the repper continously in siege mode.
The problem is a dreads role is to take out POS mainly large POS. A Nag with XL ACs has too small of an optimal range/falloff to be as effective at the edge of a large POS shield as XL Artys.
A Revelation has a large enough optimal with pulse to do that so you have have to use short range Rev numbers and the Moros gets its drones. WIth those stats taken into account a Nag does the lowest dps against large POS of all the dreads. It also has one less tanking slot and the lowest cap/armor of all the dreads.
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