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Arla Sarain
495
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Posted - 2015.06.10 22:39:40 -
[31] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:Haatakan Reppola wrote:
With 19.4km/s speed and 12km smartbomb range you have around 60% chance for missiles to be registered within smartbomb range while passing (not counting if the smartbomb is active that tick or not.
For 16.9km/s the chance is 71%, again not accounting for taking dmg but only "stopping" within smartbomb range for the server tick it passes. This is for 200% velocity bonused missiles, normal missiles are almost guaranteed to be withing smartbomb range atleast 1 server tick when passing
That's two one dimensional thinking, i.e. the worst case scenario where the missile launcher, the firewall ship, and the target are on the same plane line. If we go 3D, then: volume of 19.4km sphere = 3,823km3 volume of 12.0km sphere = 905km3 Which gives a (3,823 - 905) / (3,823) = 76% chance of the missile getting through in the random angle case. With 3xmissile velocity rigs (substituting for the MGC/MGE for now,) we're looking at 29.8km/s for cruise/heavy missiles on a Mordu ship. 2D worst case: 40% chance to block. 3D best case: (13,856.3 - 905) / 13,856.3 = 93% chance to get through. Obviously, the "realistic" case would be somewhere in between. Someone better at maths could probably compute a probability chart based on how far "off plane" the firewall ship is.
Not sure why either of you are comparing distance measure to speed. Also smartbomb damage is instantaneous and not continuous, which I don't see how it relates to the transient missile position.
Also, highest chance to SB a missile is when it passes through the centerline of the SB sphere, which is what your optimal 12km smartbomb assumes. This would happen if the missile was direct at the smartbomber, or the less likely occasion when the SBer is on a direct path between the assailant and the victim, which is really hard to pull off.
I don't think approaching this from a statistical POV is reasonable - switch on goddamn missile trails and tactical overlay, hover over the smartbomb icon, and twitch the s*** out of that missile as if you're playing CS 1.6 for the millionth time. |
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
35
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Posted - 2015.06.11 04:21:07 -
[32] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:Haatakan Reppola wrote:
With 19.4km/s speed and 12km smartbomb range you have around 60% chance for missiles to be registered within smartbomb range while passing (not counting if the smartbomb is active that tick or not.
For 16.9km/s the chance is 71%, again not accounting for taking dmg but only "stopping" within smartbomb range for the server tick it passes. This is for 200% velocity bonused missiles, normal missiles are almost guaranteed to be withing smartbomb range atleast 1 server tick when passing
That's two one dimensional thinking, i.e. the worst case scenario where the missile launcher, the firewall ship, and the target are on the same plane line. If we go 3D, then: volume of 19.4km sphere = 3,823km3 volume of 12.0km sphere = 905km3 Which gives a (3,823 - 905) / (3,823) = 76% chance of the missile getting through in the random angle case. With 3xmissile velocity rigs (substituting for the MGC/MGE for now,) we're looking at 29.8km/s for cruise/heavy missiles on a Mordu ship. 2D worst case: 40% chance to block. 3D best case: (13,856.3 - 905) / 13,856.3 = 93% chance to get through. Obviously, the "realistic" case would be somewhere in between. Someone better at maths could probably compute a probability chart based on how far "off plane" the firewall ship is.
Its no more assumptions than this whole thread is based on, but yes it assumes the smartbomb is in direct missile path so the missile have to travel the whole distance. Lets just call it worst case scenario or that the firewaller is good at what he does and that missile location is only updated every tick. Worst case scenario firewalling against best case scenario missile speed (not taking into account when a SB actualy pulse its dmg) |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
1191
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Posted - 2015.06.11 05:35:57 -
[33] - Quote
Arla Sarain wrote:I don't think approaching this from a statistical POV is reasonable - switch on goddamn missile trails and tactical overlay, hover over the smartbomb icon, and twitch the s*** out of that missile as if you're playing CS 1.6 for the millionth time.
I'm not sure missile animations and missile positions are exactly the same thing. I remember seeing somewhere that the graphics approximate the position. and I think the faster the missile, the more that breaks. It was incredibly annoying the last time I tried to use a missile boat. just another reason I don't use missiles.
@ChainsawPlankto
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Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
35
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Posted - 2015.06.11 06:12:47 -
[34] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:Arla Sarain wrote:I don't think approaching this from a statistical POV is reasonable - switch on goddamn missile trails and tactical overlay, hover over the smartbomb icon, and twitch the s*** out of that missile as if you're playing CS 1.6 for the millionth time. I'm not sure missile animations and missile positions are exactly the same thing. I remember seeing somewhere that the graphics approximate the position. and I think the faster the missile, the more that breaks. It was incredibly annoying the last time I tried to use a missile boat. just another reason I don't use missiles.
If you are firewalling a missile fleet, you dont sit still waiting for that 1 volley of missiles to pass your SB range, you cycle several smartbombs and hope/assume they kill some of the missiles as they pass. There is no situation that a fleet of missile ships will have all its missiles in the same location at the same time :P |
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
464
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Posted - 2015.06.11 06:20:02 -
[35] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:Arla Sarain wrote:I don't think approaching this from a statistical POV is reasonable - switch on goddamn missile trails and tactical overlay, hover over the smartbomb icon, and twitch the s*** out of that missile as if you're playing CS 1.6 for the millionth time. I'm not sure missile animations and missile positions are exactly the same thing. I remember seeing somewhere that the graphics approximate the position. and I think the faster the missile, the more that breaks. It was incredibly annoying the last time I tried to use a missile boat. just another reason I don't use missiles.
It is an approximate, that's without a doubt in my mind. I've run a Golem in PVE for far too long to have never noticed how much sooner damage is applied to a target long before the missiles visually strike the target. Hell, at close enough ranges, damage gets a hit reg before the missiles fully transition from the initial "stage one firing animation" where they will slowly rise up/down above/below the launchers at partial velocity briefly before shooting off at full velocity towards the target. I myself have gotten kind of used to it somewhat, but I can see where this would frustrate anyone in that regard.
"Tomahawks?"
"----in' A, right?"
"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."
"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
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Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
1096
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Posted - 2015.06.11 10:52:35 -
[36] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:Stitch Kaneland wrote:This. Kind of nullifies a missile doctrine when you can firewall 70-100% of the enemy fleets dps. To counter this... MJD to get around the firewall (unless set up encircling the fleet, or if every ship has SB). But still a lot of hassle that turret ships have no problems with. Yes, but... firewalls were a thing before the missile speed buff, no? Add in the Mordu's Legion missile velocity bonus, and you just might have missiles that can "skip" over the firewalling ships due to the EVE servers' 1 second tick. A large smartbomb has a 12km diameter. Light, Heavy and Cruise missiles on Mordu's Legion ships with their 200% missile velocity bonus have a speed of 16.9km/s 19.4 km/s and 21.1 19.4 km/s respectively. Has anyone tested whether the server will check whether the smartbomb will "intercept" missiles (which would be calculation heavy, i.e. TiDi unfriendly) or whether the server just "skips" the missiles from point A to point B every second? (Skipping would mean that the missile could effectively "hop" over the 12k smartbomb area and not be destroyed.) If these fast missiles do skip, and since the Mordu's Legion ships haven't crashed the server, modules that buff missile speed combined with potentially retro-fitting the Mordu fast missile bonus to other hulls could be an interesting option for CCP's missile pass.
When you're decloaking something with a sabre (and got links huehue) and going more than around 4km/s, you end up burning straight through the supposed victim without decloaking it. Guess missiles should do the same, flying past smartbombs. |
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
1355
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Posted - 2015.06.11 11:38:41 -
[37] - Quote
Sobaan Tali wrote:Chainsaw Plankton wrote:Arla Sarain wrote:I don't think approaching this from a statistical POV is reasonable - switch on goddamn missile trails and tactical overlay, hover over the smartbomb icon, and twitch the s*** out of that missile as if you're playing CS 1.6 for the millionth time. I'm not sure missile animations and missile positions are exactly the same thing. I remember seeing somewhere that the graphics approximate the position. and I think the faster the missile, the more that breaks. It was incredibly annoying the last time I tried to use a missile boat. just another reason I don't use missiles. It is an approximate, that's without a doubt in my mind. I've run a Golem in PVE for far too long to have never noticed how much sooner damage is applied to a target long before the missiles visually strike the target. Hell, at close enough ranges, damage gets a hit reg before the missiles fully transition from the initial "stage one firing animation" where they will slowly rise up/down above/below the launchers at partial velocity briefly before shooting off at full velocity towards the target. I myself have gotten kind of used to it somewhat, but I can see where this would frustrate anyone in that regard.
Yeah, ships assplode before you even see a contrail animation.
In fact it's quite easy to measure if you're watching the target because no matter the range, the last volley never visually "hits". Ho close it gets is the only variable. |
Zekora Rally
Negative Density
Whatever.
17
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Posted - 2015.06.11 19:52:01 -
[38] - Quote
Wouldn't explosion velocity be a more desirable attribute to improve instead of explosion radius? Target painters already help with the latter but the other is much harder to control without webs. |
stoicfaux
5877
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Posted - 2015.06.11 20:20:05 -
[39] - Quote
Zekora Rally wrote:Wouldn't explosion velocity be a more desirable attribute to improve instead of explosion radius? Target painters already help with the latter but the other is much harder to control without webs.
Short Answer:
No.
Long Answer:
Missile explosion velocity, missile explosion radius, target sig size and target velocity are essentially identical in terms of their effect on the 2nd part of the missile damage formula. http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Missile_Damage
To put it simply, a 15% rigor provides a (1 / .85) = 1.176 modifier to the 2nd missile formula. A 15% flare rig provides a (1 + .15) = 1.15 modifier, a hypothetical 15% TP would provide a ( 1 + .15) = 1.15 modifier, and a hypothetical 15% web would provide a (1 / .85) = 1.176 modifier.
The main distinction is that explosion radius and target sig size affect the first part of the missile formula (S / E), however that's not normally important since the second part of the missile formula tends to overshadow the first part except in edge cases.
Rigors and webs affect the denominators of the missile formula so they're (1/x), whereas Flares and TPs affect the numerators so they're (1 + x).
Here's why a 15% Rigor actually provides a 1.176 bonus:
Start with:
S Ve
- * --
E Vt
Now apply the 15% rigor
S Ve
------- * --
E * .85 Vt
which is the same as:
1 S Ve
--- * - * --
.85 E Vt
1 / .85 = 1.176. Because everything is multiplied together in the second missile formula, rigors, flares, webs, etc., are also multipliers. Fun note: a 60% web is the equivalent of a 60% Rigor (but only in the context of the 2nd part of the formula.)
Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
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Arla Sarain
496
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Posted - 2015.06.11 20:55:52 -
[40] - Quote
For completion, I'd like to add that there is a power. If the bracket ratio evaluates to 15% or 17.6% more than nominal, that does not translate into 15% or 17% more damage.
For a DRF of 2.8, the log ratio is 0.6.
1.176^0.6 = 1.1
Also the function output is subject to the minimum argument logic. In the event that your missile explosion speed is higher than target speed and hence dramatically increases the magnitude of the ratio, the second argument is likely to be the smallest of the 3 arguments.
Unfortunately, Rigors are still better in any case, because sig/missile radius contribute to both arguments.
The only other detail is the rate at which damage increases - should the second ratio be smallest of the 3 arguments, the damage per rig increases at 17.6%, if the 3 argument is smallest it increases at a rate of 10%. |
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Fourteen Maken
The Great Harmon Institute Of Technology
Enemy Spotted.
165
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Posted - 2015.06.13 14:49:30 -
[41] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:baltec1 wrote:Just as I nail my phoenix fit CCP does this to me  Good News! Hypothetically, if the MGC has a 30% bonus, then a Phoenix with 4 MGCs, 3 Rigors, and 3 bonused TPs + 60% web (from a Rapier or Hyena) can one volley a 34k ehp shield tanked MWD'ing Ishtar with Citadel Cruise missiles in siege mode. (Ishtar has just 32k ehp if you fire 1 EM missile and two explosive ones.) I've added a tab for the Phoenix on the spreadsheet. Obviously, CCP will need to nerf Citadel Cruise missiles and the Phoenix when MGCs are released.
I admit I don't fly dreads but I've seen turret dreads blap subcaps when they get webbed, so why do you think it should be different for missiles? You're gonna put 10 damage application mods on that phoenix, AND have a Rapier tackling of course it' will hit a HAC. If you fill the midslots on a Naglafar with tracking computers and webs, and have a rapier tackling for you I'm pretty sure you'll blap ishtars no problem. |
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
302
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Posted - 2015.06.13 16:29:25 -
[42] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Sobaan Tali wrote:Chainsaw Plankton wrote:Arla Sarain wrote:I don't think approaching this from a statistical POV is reasonable - switch on goddamn missile trails and tactical overlay, hover over the smartbomb icon, and twitch the s*** out of that missile as if you're playing CS 1.6 for the millionth time. I'm not sure missile animations and missile positions are exactly the same thing. I remember seeing somewhere that the graphics approximate the position. and I think the faster the missile, the more that breaks. It was incredibly annoying the last time I tried to use a missile boat. just another reason I don't use missiles. It is an approximate, that's without a doubt in my mind. I've run a Golem in PVE for far too long to have never noticed how much sooner damage is applied to a target long before the missiles visually strike the target. Hell, at close enough ranges, damage gets a hit reg before the missiles fully transition from the initial "stage one firing animation" where they will slowly rise up/down above/below the launchers at partial velocity briefly before shooting off at full velocity towards the target. I myself have gotten kind of used to it somewhat, but I can see where this would frustrate anyone in that regard. Yeah, ships assplode before you even see a contrail animation. In fact it's quite easy to measure if you're watching the target because no matter the range, the last volley never visually "hits". Ho close it gets is the only variable.
This is why i feel it may be possible to volley dread pirate scarlett after the first gate using missiles. If you burn right next to her the damage may apply instantly. Agent wont give me the damn mission to test though. |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
1199
|
Posted - 2015.06.13 17:23:25 -
[43] - Quote
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:This is why i feel it may be possible to volley dread pirate scarlett after the first gate using missiles. If you burn right next to her the damage may apply instantly. Agent wont give me the damn mission to test though.
as far as I can tell she vanishes instantaneously. that said I've never gotten deep enough into missile mechanics to know how they work with server ticks. If there is a range where missiles can hit on the same tick, then yea I suppose it would be possible. That said, I'll stick to my warp speed rigged arty mach for that mission.
@ChainsawPlankto
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Zekora Rally
Negative Density
Whatever.
17
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Posted - 2015.06.23 05:34:07 -
[44] - Quote
Well, it's confirmed that they will affect both missile explosion velocity and radius. I can't wait.  |
Estella Osoka
Perkone
Caldari State
644
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Posted - 2015.06.23 15:28:14 -
[45] - Quote
New module stats:
New Missile Mods
And then there was this:
Missile Hitpoint Change
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Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam
Disturbed Acquaintance
1481
|
Posted - 2015.06.24 01:21:56 -
[46] - Quote
Zekora Rally wrote:Well, it's confirmed that they will affect both missile explosion velocity and radius. I can't wait.
so long as you don't mind giving up
a BCU
an AB
a TP
a Webbifier
a Shield Module
an Armour Module
on a 1 for 1 basis
less is the new more it would appear. |
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
1445
|
Posted - 2015.06.24 10:41:53 -
[47] - Quote
I'll gladly give them up for a RHML phoontang in a gang. In a heartbeat.
I have the slots, in a gang other people are tackle...I finally have something worthwhile to do with my midslots (lets assume painters are covered). |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
16564
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Posted - 2015.06.24 11:33:32 -
[48] - Quote
Kitty Bear wrote:Zekora Rally wrote:Well, it's confirmed that they will affect both missile explosion velocity and radius. I can't wait. so long as you don't mind giving up a BCU an AB a TP a Webbifier a Shield Module an Armour Module on a 1 for 1 basis less is the new more it would appear.
You were perhaps expecting an extra mid and low slot on every missile ship...?
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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stoicfaux
5970
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Posted - 2015.06.24 12:01:48 -
[49] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Kitty Bear wrote:Zekora Rally wrote:Well, it's confirmed that they will affect both missile explosion velocity and radius. I can't wait. so long as you don't mind giving up a BCU an AB a TP a Webbifier a Shield Module an Armour Module on a 1 for 1 basis less is the new more it would appear. You were perhaps expecting an extra mid and low slot on every missile ship...?
Well, you could potentially free up two rig slots by replacing two rigors with an MGC II/wPrec script, thus allowing you to use the two free rig slots to "free up" a mid or low.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5831412#post5831412
146.9% - MGC II @ 19% w/Precision Script
138.4% - 2x Rigor I
Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
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afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
1446
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Posted - 2015.06.24 12:10:10 -
[50] - Quote
Or just stuff the mids on the phoon full, FULL OF THE MODS.
ALL HAIL THE PHOONTANG OVERLORDS.
Seriously, they're gonna be epic. |
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Mizhir
Matari Exodus
The Camel Empire
74440
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Posted - 2015.06.24 12:12:10 -
[51] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:Malcanis wrote:Kitty Bear wrote:Zekora Rally wrote:Well, it's confirmed that they will affect both missile explosion velocity and radius. I can't wait. so long as you don't mind giving up a BCU an AB a TP a Webbifier a Shield Module an Armour Module on a 1 for 1 basis less is the new more it would appear. You were perhaps expecting an extra mid and low slot on every missile ship...? Well, you could potentially free up two rig slots by replacing two rigors with an MGC II/wPrec script, thus allowing you to use the two free rig slots to "free up" a mid or low. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5831412#post5831412
146.9% - MGC II @ 19% w/Precision Script 138.4% - 2x Rigor I
Also worth mentioning that the advantage gets even larger when you start to stack stuff. 2 MGC II will greatly outperform 3 rigs and if you are in a fleet with a decent amount of support you can have support carry the TPs while main dps ships just stack their application making it easier to apply missile damage against small stuff.
One Man Crew - Collective Solo PVP - Video is out!
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Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam
Disturbed Acquaintance
1481
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Posted - 2015.06.25 13:58:45 -
[52] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:
You were perhaps expecting an extra mid and low slot on every missile ship...?
Stupid question really.
Or is it just a failed attempt at sarcasm.
But ...
Of course not. Only a stupid brain-dead ****** would expect new additional fitting slots to go with the new modules.
I'm just high lighting the first drawbacks to these new toys.
The second drawback will be hitting the database at some point, when they finally get TD's affecting missile ships.
A smart person would have initially realised all of this.
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