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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.11.12 19:23:00 -
[1]
NPC demand and supply must go - long overdue.
Advantages far outweigh the disadvantages and might even go part way to salvaging the game.
They should, however, introduce a commodity demand/supply system for the trade commodities based on station/planet/corp useage (NPC)
One can only hope they are doing this with their re-seeding but i expect it will, instead, be a mundane and totally random affair. 
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.11.12 19:31:00 -
[2]
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I doubt that there is enough player demand for minerals to cover the player supply for minerals because theres not enough player demand for goods going on. Prices will crash and players still will not be able to offload their minerals. Players simply produce ways more minerals than they consume.
There is.
Ive had over 300 mil isk of requests out for scordite to kernite for a number of days - none of it was filled.
Ya know why?
Because it wasnt on one of the hub systems on the highway.
Player supply is being condensed by the highway system creating narrow strips of economically viable systems/stations and great empty areas in the rest of empire space....
space where demand is never met because nobody sees a need to go there and worse case you refine your own ore and sell it to LOCAL NPC demand because its better than having to move huge volumes of ore (or minerals) .... as you cant use the courier system as it doesnt work practically.
Kill NPC demand, kill the highways and kill any future production of BPCs whilst you're at it.
It'd be a start anyway.
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.11.12 19:38:00 -
[3]
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Neah, theyre not moving it to you, but if they did, theyd overwhelm you with minerals.
Perhaps some tweaking could be tried, halve prices and total demand for units?
How so?
I can produce non-stop consuming those minerals.. production is only limited by local vailability of minerals (in my station)..
or is the fact that i then can't sell the end product for any profit due to price cutting and global competition why they will overwhelm me? Because it isnt actually worth building for anybody other than "me"... and if i dont lose my ship then i dont need anything else? And i wont lose any ships because im mining safely inside a protected bubble and if the player wont buy the minerals i know the NPCs will?
...?
The system is broken fundamentally.. a little nudge here and there wont help.
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.11.12 19:57:00 -
[4]
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The last thing I want to happen is to have to move 20 million tritanium 20 jumps away. the NPCs are there so we don't have to worry about if you are going to find someone stuipid enough to buy 20 million trit that will take them 10 days to move to the location they build at. If you want to do that from Nocx-Meg that would be more realistic, but there are many people with giant stockpiles of minerals they don't want to have to move.
lolol
Quote of the decade.
Proof positive, as if it were needed, of my point.
there are no regionalised markets or empire divisions. There is simply a strip of viable sytems adjacent to highways or key points.
The recent dev commentary on empire systems being mined out by strip mining is also vacant... there are safe empire systems in abundance with good ore, but their locale away from 2 or 3 hops from a highway makes them redundant.
There is no population pressure to force people away from the narrow highway strips.
Its an industrial estate either side of a motorway fcol and setting up shop anywhere else is... as Nails so delicately put it... "stupid".
Highways killed the economy - we know this.
NPC demand was only needed to bootstrap the economy - we know this.
Remove both.
- - -
(Big shock for those concerned when the highways get closed down when war breaks out...and atm the only tiny ray of light for the entire economic future of this so-called market economy.)
- - - - -
(Hey so what happened to the other promise about NPC hauliers?...oh yeah sonnÖ)
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.11.13 02:27:00 -
[5]
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Highways killed the economy - we know this.
No we don't !!
An over abundant never-ending supply of BP copies and the lack of wear & tear on items ruined the market. Both of which I might add are SLOWLY being addressed.
You are correct - the Highways just made it spread like the most infectious and fastest moving virus ever seen.
(Can you tell i hate the highways?)
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.11.13 02:37:00 -
[6]
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Edited by: Luther Pendragon on 13/11/2003 00:09:34
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What you're seeing are the results of an oversupply of minerals in the region.
You say over-supply, I say weak-demand 
Demand from?
More players (where?)
Or
Higher risk causing ship loss? (Hear screams?)
or
Wear and tear (So high that it causes demand for new items? I think not)
Demand for items - many items, is very low for good reason, everybody makes their own, there is no market to sell these items, no demand.
Blame BPCs and highways.
Highways are a problem, not just a means to visualise a problem - look at plaeyr distribution and the eradication of regionalised markets (though the de-specificatio of NPC drone loot didnt help either)
Bad moves on bad moves - compounded errors.
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.11.13 02:41:00 -
[7]
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How about make other activities more profitable? Whats so strange about that concept?
You like championing the "free market" and "More profit" but did you just overlook the collapse of the Miner II market?
You say i should pay more for mminerals but fail to explain why i want minerals to produce an item it costs me to sell...?
Quick witicisms wont solve a thing...that one you can take to the bank.
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.11.13 02:46:00 -
[8]
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Currently it takes an average know nothing noob 2-3 weeks to get a cruiser. It takes the same noob 2-3 seconds to get it blown to ****. And they go insurance? whats that?!?!?
Resource collection is to slow even for a mmorpg, bounties and rewards are to low an way to little action because peeps are scared of loosing what they got. But put all that a side, you are talking about nerfing the base price of dirt! ******* dirt!!!
Get off your ass and mine yourself if you donÆt wanna pay above npc prices.
assinine - you expect people to take this and you seriously?
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.11.13 02:55:00 -
[9]
What doe sseem to escape people at times is that CCP are very aware that the market and economy is very broken atm - they know it is fubar'd beyond salvation probably...
I just wonder why they dont do some radical surgery rather than hoping they cans tick a different tech 2 plaster on the wound and hope it heals itself.
Luther - there is some hope that demand may come from an influx of players from tech 2 through to tech 3 and over xmas... even so their dissilusionment on discovering taht everybody else has everys ingle other bp already (or a copy of it) will no doubt have them rushing to call in their firends (/irony off).
Wishful thinking will not solve this, nor Chucky-eggs wise*****s (squak - hypocrite morkt).
Rip it all out I say. (though from teh looks of the storyline, stuterring though it is, they may be doing some motorway deconstruction already)
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.11.13 03:44:00 -
[10]
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Actually I've never sold minerals below NPC price and never will. Noobs do it obviously , but lately there must not be enough noobs doing it. Hence this transparent thread to force players to sell at below NPC prices by eliminating NPC. NEWS FLASH, need minerals? Get your ass and mine them yourselves!
And get off the highways only make the game faster to get to competitive merchants and good fights.
Either you're a bot or you just like repeating yourself? Either way you still havent said anything with an actual point.
NEWSFLASH - not everybody wants to or should have to mine themselves!
NEWSFLASH - CCP designed the game for tiered manufacturing supporting distributed sections of the manufacturing process (miners and builders as distinct entities)
NEWSFLASH - Above point continues to pass you by compeltely!
NEWSFLSH - CHucky has 31 people set to Terrible standing...but only 5 to anything above 0.00
He is liked by 12 characters and disliked by 15. His corp are liked by Five stars, pulsar defence....
NEWSFLASH "Look at" is the coolest new feature out - damn this game looks good again!
(I gave up caring about this thread you may notice due to distractions on chaos. go try "look at" its very cool but will no doubt gets lots of folks killed lol)
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.11.13 04:02:00 -
[11]
Because they are making their own stuff Veruna.
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.11.13 14:24:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Morkt Drak on 13/11/2003 14:38:42
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But keep asking for the sky to fall and to get your delights in hell. If you know all that other crap about me, then you know IÆve been in this game longer then you, which you failed to mention and BTW your chaos thread is lame.
You really are a strange person.
"all that other stuff" is available on chaos on any player.
I would love to know how you have been in the game longer than me seeing as i started at day 1...and also the relevance of "Longevity" in the game... you seem to be suggesting "Ive been here longer than you so nernernerner ner nah" - (fits with your other way of attempting to make points in all regards at least: lame)
Your fascination with ordering everybody else to mine though is strange to the point of fixation. Why you fail to grasp population dynamics is something you need to deal with, especially in terms of upcoming changes that will obviously hit you and yours a lot harder than most.
The Devs were not and are not looking for narrow bands of economic viability - this is why you will see changes to the highways (recognised problem) and you will see NPC haulage (recognised problem). Both are already slated and otw, so the happy little world of no-risk mining and NPC selling is going to change.
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.11.13 14:39:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Morkt Drak on 13/11/2003 14:43:41
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... I knew being able to view people's likes and dislikes freely was going to raise hell, didn't think it'd be so soon, though... :s
Certainly lets you work out peoples alts/allies easily ;-0
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.11.13 17:10:00 -
[14]
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I didn't see any relevance in this, 13 people set to negative out 30k of characters is not a big number. The 5 I have set positive are allies with negative ratings. All you tried to do was spin the subject because you know IÆm right.
Removing NPC demand is only going to put more cheaper products on the market because thatÆs going to the only thing you be able to do with minerals is manufacture. Morkt canÆt buy 100,000,000,000 billion trit at 0.1 isk. There will be no place for it to go, no place for noobs to make serious money, noobs without money donÆt buy things.
Like I said before, this issue never came up in beta. Know why? Because manufacturers paid 2 to 3 times the NPC rate. Manufacturing is bust now and they are trying to pass the loss on to the miners. ThatÆs all this is and donÆt pretend it isnÆt because it makes you look dumber then you already do. Removing NPC demand would pull out last prop up keeping the Eve economy alive.
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Edited by: Morkt Drak on 13/11/2003 14:43:41
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... I knew being able to view people's likes and dislikes freely was going to raise hell, didn't think it'd be so soon, though... :s
Certainly lets you work out peoples alts/allies easily ;-0
Stop using this "spin" crap - it was tiresome before and its more so now.
There is no significance - i was looking at a chaos feature whilst doing the post - no big deal.
Stop quoting beta as ane xample of "how things work" - beta isnt anything like release. Beta didnt have anything over cruisers for most of its market life, had a fraction of players, ahd no highways, had different requirements, different ore and mienral values - it was a different game. Beta isn't relevant.
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it makes you look dumber then you already do.
Yes Chucky of course it does... but i cans mell the fear allready.
The safe glass house is going to be shattered ... get used to it.
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.11.13 17:51:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Morkt Drak on 13/11/2003 17:57:29
wont be less in our pockets Chucky - we dont mine and we dont manufacture from bought ore or minerals (anymore).
So im not sure what you are trying to help me see here...
Tech 2 item production (and into tech 3) with restrited sellers and availability (and massive BPC restrictions/penalties) will help some way
to supporting a new amrket.. but tech 1 will remain pointless... indeed i struggle to see how it will be of any economic use to anybody at all....
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.11.13 17:57:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Morkt Drak on 13/11/2003 18:03:30
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Oh, so none of your customers are miners?
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wont be less in our pockets Chucky - we dont mine and we dont manufacture from bought ore or minerals (anymore).
Practically none - no.
...why would an "arms-dealer" have most of their market with miners?
(Edit: you dont have a clue what we do do you?  )
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.11.13 18:51:00 -
[17]
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Oh so you don't sell ships? You used to, but no I don't keep up to date on what you do.
But yea, IÆm am clueless why you would want to remove NPC demand when you point out it doesnÆt affect you at all.
That something doesn't affect me directly does not mean i dont care what happens to it...
No we dont sell ships anymore, we only ever did very briefly, stopping when it became obvious there wasn't any good money in it.
That's the point... there should be... irrespective of whether its "us" getting the "good money" or somebody else.
It would be interesting though to hear precisely your own expereince with directly manufacturing battleships, for example, from the entire perspective of buying in BPs, minerals through transportation, refining and sale of end product..with costings etc...
I mean... you have actually done all of this for yourself haven't you? And thus will ahve the figures instantly to hand...
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.11.13 19:19:00 -
[18]
Im all for removing bounties from NPC rats outside of empire space.
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As for the issue somone stated here about only the highways have buy/sell ore orders instead of the out lying area's is because the miners will not risk hauling ore out to lower than .5 space because they don't want to be killed by a pc pirate.
Rubbish - there are hundreds of unoccupied systems off highways without any fear of PC Pirating that are empty and unused and with unfulfilled orders - Ive deliberately gone to such systems and set up top-isk orders to seeif any get filled - they dont.
People wont move lots of minerals a long way because its so sodding boring to do and takes so long.
Thats why there will be an NPC system for doing so.
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NPC demand for trit, pyre, and mex is absolutly nessary in order to have ore stablity for the lower ores.
The crux of the matter - why should you have fixed guarenteed markets for a product that is risk free to obtain in unending quantities and is magically dropping out of the system through NPC "non useage" - whilst others have to relyon the vaguaries of player demand and price fluctuations?
Its too easy, too safe, too guarenteed and way too overused by risk-free miners in totally safe empire systems.
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.11.13 20:35:00 -
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Anything else you would like to know?
Well a point would be usefull.
Though i think ive given up expecting one.
Your view of what constitutes a useful market for the game is radically different from mine. I dont want to see risk free gaurenteed minimal income from totally safe battleship mining inside empire spaced elimited by distance fromt eh highways and at the behest of macro-miners over n00bs.
You do.
Your view on "how to make a profit" is simplY "Go mine for yourself" (useful - not)
And your solution to the utilisation of empty empire space and the predominance of industry around highways is "Go mine yourself" (useful - not)
And your solution to getting minerals/ ore out beyond the highways is "Go mine yourself" ...
Dont know aobut anybody else but I can see a clear pattern developing here which isnt exactly taking the discussion very far.
So:
Please explain why people should have a guarenteed income from never-ending unchanging NPC buy orders in a totally safe but highway delimited environment and why that is preferable to a player driven environment.
because, so far, you haven't done anything but "spin" (and in a manner ratehr reminiscent of another person who didnt understand that phrase or the icon either - funny old world)
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