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Cyclone and Hurricane

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Verus Potestas Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2006.11.22 20:10:00 - [1] Cyclone and Hurricane. Both minmatar battlecruisers. Both the same ship. At least, that's pretty much what they are. They both do the same things well, they both tank evilly, and gank a bit. Cyclone tanks with shields, Hurricane with armor. What should have have happened is Hurricane with gank out the arse, and Cyclone tanking to hell and back. When we first saw the stats, hurricane had 7 turrets (double damage bonus), while cyclone has 5 turrets and a tanking bonus. Hurricane did butt-loads more damage, but without the tanking bonus. All good so far: cyclone tanks, hurricane ganks. But all was not well in balance land: the hurricane could gank AND fit dual reps and a 1600mm plate. That's just stupid. It should be a gank ship: no plate, maybe only one rep, to go along with it's sleipnir level DPS. In that situation, it could both out-tank and out-damage the cyclone. That wasn't cool. The hurricane had to be changed. So, enter Tuxford. Aha! Remove one turret and a bit of grid! Now, it fits 6 turrets (double damage bonussed), dual reps and a 1600mm plate. Result? It out-damages and out-tanks the cyclone. Yay Rolling Eyes I'm not saying that the Hurricane is a bad ship in it's current state: far from it. It is a great ship, good enough that it makes the Cyclone obselete. Rather than getting our gank ship and our tank ship, we got two ships which crossed over so badly it hurt. What should have happened is that the Hurricane became able to run it's 7 gun happy-gank setup, but had a snowball's chance in hell of fitting a strong tank (7 cruiser guns, dual MAR and 1600mm plate is wrong in so many ways). Of course, one way of dealing with this would be borking the grid of the Hurricane. However, that is not the best method IMO. That would destroy any chance of arty setups totally. What really needs to be addressed is the HUGE imbalance between the fitting requirements of ACs and arties, especially at cruiser level (and the fact there is pretty much no reason to fit higher tier ACs). That way, you can make cruiser/BC size ships which work with artilleries and aren't overpowered with ACs. At the moment, that just isn't happening. Obviously changing AC grid needs would mean that other ships which are grid balanced for the previous AC grid needs (Rupture, Stabber, Vagabond) would need an equivalent grid increase, to keep them fitting their old setups fine. We don't want 2 ships which do the same things, we want 2 ships which do different things. Hurricane should gank, not tank. We already have the cyclone for a tanking BC. Many of the same arguments should apply to the Drake and Ferox too: Ferox is tank, so Drake should be a gank ship. Why does it have a bloody resist bonus? This was originally posted in a different forum, but I think it's better suited here. Could a mod please remove this Between corps atm, the NPC one is strictly a temporary thing. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
Ramblin Man Empyreum	Posted - 2006.11.22 20:55:00 - [2] Special ship bonus reducing grid requirements of medium artillery? Now hear me out, because I know it's a stretch... - A lot of other ships are already fairly well balanced (or at least we're used to them) - The odd powergrid problems are uniquely exacerbated by the BC-class's need to fit "large numbers" of guns (as opposed to cruisers) - - You'd see the same problem on destroyers if they didn't have a fewer slots Unique problem? Unique solution.
Doffie	Posted - 2006.11.22 21:00:00 - [3] Well there are many ships which do the same things, but some are better than others, and as the hurricane is a tier 2 BC...
Tiuwaz Minmatar Omacron Militia	Posted - 2006.11.22 21:05:00 - [4] 10 iskies that soon they'll nerf the tankability without improving the gank , at the same time they will improve gallente winbuttons even more ah well i am getting tired of it Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
6Bagheera9 Shadows of the Dead Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.22 21:48:00 - [5] I could see them slashing the grid so that you can't tank a Hurricane with artys and fit a strong but not insane tank with ACs. I think the Cyclone should also get another turret to even things out.
Crewman Jenkins	Posted - 2006.11.22 21:54:00 - [6] Id like to see a fitting with full 720 Tech II arties that has a good tank. best I can do with a full 720 rack on test is a medium rep and a damage control, unless I want to take out my gyros.
Lenaria Caldari Draconis Navitas Aeterna	Posted - 2006.11.22 23:37:00 - [7] Ok, lets put it clear: Hurricane is by no way overpovered compared to other races BC's. So there is no point bringing it to the sucky Cyclone lvl. If you fear what Cyclone will be outclassed by Hurricane, you are very right. But the right solution is not to nerf already nerfed Hurricane - the right solution is to buff Cyclone. I dont know how...
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror	Posted - 2006.11.22 23:41:00 - [8] Originally by: Crewman Jenkins Id like to see a fitting with full 720 Tech II arties that has a good tank. best I can do with a full 720 rack on test is a medium rep and a damage control, unless I want to take out my gyros. we probly wont ever get that. look at the munnin, you gotta sacrifice to get a full 720 II setup goin. just par for the course, never supposed to be able to fit badarse snipe w/ badarse tank anyways.
YuckFou	Posted - 2006.11.23 00:58:00 - [9] i like tank and gank, so shhhh...
Imhotep Khem Total Mayhem.	Posted - 2006.11.23 02:05:00 - [10] Originally by: Ramblin Man Special ship bonus reducing grid requirements of medium artillery? .... There is an interesting idea. I know CCP did not want to do stuff like this originally. But maybe its time. ____ "If your not dyin' your not tryin'." "Are you prepared to go all the way, Alexi?" DuGalle
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.11.23 02:11:00 - [11] Originally by: HankMurphy Originally by: Crewman Jenkins Id like to see a fitting with full 720 Tech II arties that has a good tank. best I can do with a full 720 rack on test is a medium rep and a damage control, unless I want to take out my gyros. we probly wont ever get that. look at the munnin, you gotta sacrifice to get a full 720 II setup goin. just par for the course, never supposed to be able to fit badarse snipe w/ badarse tank anyways. They aren't exactly alpha kings anymore. Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
Benglada Finite Horizon The Red Skull	Posted - 2006.11.23 02:53:00 - [12] Give the cyclone a six med and some more grid/cpu I want that thing to be an active tanking monster. --------------------------- Originally by: Arkanor 0.0 is the Final Frontier. Bring money and friends.
K1K1R1K1 Team Machine Incorporated	Posted - 2006.11.23 04:37:00 - [13] Originally by: Verus Potestas Edited by: Verus Potestas on 22/11/2006 21:14:20 What should have have happened is Hurricane with gank out the arse, and Cyclone tanking to hell and back. . . . Result? It out-damages and out-tanks the cyclone. Yay About sums up my feeling of the current situation. However, what compounds the problem (hurricane making the cyclone completley useless) is the HP increase. Considering how powerhungry the cyclone's shieldtank + tackling gear is even the 3 nos won't sustain it (if you're lucky enough that your enemy is within nosing range) for very long. The armor tanked hurricane on the other hand has the option of fitting a cap booster to keep its superior tank going for longer (and it is superior... 6 slots for tank beat 3-4 slots with a bounus no matter how you wanna look at it). So what good will the cyclone be post kali? Adding another turret doesn't do a **** thing. Adding another medslot throws it outa balance with the other T1 bc's. The only soltion is to give it a stronger tank and make the hurricane all gank. Give the cyclone another med and take out 1 low. Put the hurricane back to how it was and take out a bunch of grid. This way artillery setups will have to use RCU's (which imo is how it should be) and AC setups will sport a tank although nothing too fierce. _______________________________________ Don't worry aboutit.
Kagura Nikon	Posted - 2006.11.23 09:17:00 - [14] Dammm guys stop asking them to change hurricane.!!1 Dont even use its name You all know we will never get that firepower back so that if they nerf tank we will not receive tank back and will get a no tank no gank ship. DONT USE HURRICANE NAME!!!!
Verus Potestas Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2006.11.23 17:15:00 - [15] Originally by: YuckFou i like tank and gank, so shhhh... Well, I like having 2 ships which aren't basically identical, so yuck fou Between corps atm, the NPC one is strictly a temporary thing. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2006.11.25 09:36:00 - [16] OMG auto cannons arnt ballenced, but dont tell anyone ok.
Thor Xian Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2006.11.25 09:53:00 - [17] Want to fix the Cyclone? Give it 8/7/2 slots. ~Thor Xian, Material Defender "Victory is the weakness of the enemy." Corp/Alliance Services
GRIM REAPERjib	Posted - 2006.11.25 11:37:00 - [18] OMFG keep the hurricane as it is and add 1 turret so we get 7. its about time minmatar get something desent. and for the cyclone, f... it ugly arse ****e ship. doesnt matter if the hurricane is better than the cyclone, its just as it should be.
K1K1R1K1 Team Machine Incorporated	Posted - 2006.11.25 12:42:00 - [19] Originally by: GRIM REAPERjib OMFG keep the hurricane as it is and add 1 turret so we get 7. its about time minmatar get something desent. and for the cyclone, f... it ugly arse ****e ship. doesnt matter if the hurricane is better than the cyclone, its just as it should be. /me throws chair at REAPERjib. YOU HAVE ANGERED THE MATARI GODS!! The Cyclone is a classic minmatar ship. Looks plenty good yet has enough rust to be classified as matari. It's a very good ship, one of the better BC's even if it is stuck exactly in the middle of tank and gank (compared to the brutix and ferox). Now with a second BC coming out it needs to swing over to the tank side while the Hurricane takes the gank side. _______________________________________ Don't worry aboutit.
slothe Caldari Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.11.25 13:24:00 - [20] well, at least i wont have to armour tank a cyclone any more
NonstickRon Minmatar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc. Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2006.11.25 15:25:00 - [21] This makes me sad.
Verus Potestas Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2006.11.25 20:32:00 - [22] Originally by: slothe well, at least i wont have to armour tank a cyclone any more Because it's obsolete Between corps atm, the NPC one is strictly a temporary thing. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy

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