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MOOstradamus
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Posted - 2003.11.13 15:37:00 -
[1]
Edited by: MOOstradamus on 13/11/2003 15:41:46
Lets start with two generalisations:
- 1: Pirates & Manufacturers hate the Highway Gate system.
- 2: Manufacturers want rid of NPC Mineral Demand.
Regarding the first issue ... well you're all just plain wrong as I love it !!
Now on to the subject of this thread as described by the title ... 
For some reason 'manufacturers' advocate that NPC mineral demand is hurting their profits by maintaining artificially high prices. WTF !!
From Miri Tirzan:
 Quote:
In case you missed it, the NPC prices are suppost to set bounds to for the market. For minerals, they are suppost to be the lowest price, and for manufactured items, the highest.
This is spot on despite the English . There is plenty of room with which to engage in a price war between PC's. It is entirely the foolish/short sighted/greedy (ie: concentrating primarily on short term gains) manufacturers fault if they are nearly all spirally down towards ... er ... well you can't say bankruptcy - so how does 'not making GAZILLIONS of ISK a week' sound  
If NPC Mineral Demand were to be removed EVE would become a seller's market again. Whether this would last is upto the manufacturers left in play or once more would they just all cut prices kamikaze style in an attempt to ensure their goods sell first.
However without the income generated from selling minerals to all the NPC Corporations many of us, and particularly newish players, would have no ISK to spend. So who's going to buy your stuff now ...
Someone said, and I know who  , that Agent Missions and NPC Pirate Hunting are always available for anyone, no matter what their level of experience, to partake in. Hmm ... nice way to force everyone else towards a style of play they may not be interested in !!
But wait a minute manufacturers will always be willing to buy minerals at THEIR prices . And hence success twice over - cheaper cost of production and of course they, if crafty, can still sell their goods at the same prices = INCREASED PROFITS !!
YAY !! MANUFACTURERS ARE TEH WIN !!
Another downside of a shift from a buyers to a sellers market (due to lack of ISK) is that no-one will be able to afford to replace anything leading to less risk taking, so fewer opportunities for combat and consequently a far duller game.
THE END. (for now ...)
Discuss. Conradict. Rebut. Flame ...
*EDIT: spelling *
MOOrovingian "Following & supporting EVE (since Jan 2001) is like wiping your arse with sandpaper."
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.11.13 15:58:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Morkt Drak on 13/11/2003 16:03:20
Quote:
nice way to force everyone else towards a style of play they may not be interested in !!
Some people dont want to mine either.
And without "mining your own" it isnt economically viable to produce from purchased minerals.
CCP designed the game with the idea of corps being able to purchase in their minerals from specialised mining corps. They envisioned and wanted tiered manufacturing and regionalised markets (even localised markets).
The only answer given to the "manufacturers" is "go mine your own"... why those very people realise that if they did do this they wouldnt want to buy any minerals at all escapes me..
oh, but wait, they dont care... because... NPCs will buy the minerals!
There is no such thing as "increased profits" from manufacturing in EVE as ti stands now - its rare enough toe ven find "profit" if utilising a non-mining (or non-recycle) process.
People even sell underneath the recycle value on some items... enough so that there are players who exist solely on buying in items and recycling them then selling the minerals to NPC buyers for profit.
Using the arguement that NPC prices define the lowest sale price is total irony - ever seen the NPC price on a battleship... especially where the players price of less than 50% of that is regarded in the same post as being some sort of manufacturers gluttony of excess profit.
Simply isnt true.
A Raven blueprint cost 1.2 billion and each raven, built on bought mienrals atm at ME10 makes about 11 million isk "profit"... you are going to be a very long time making any real profit from that...note - Profit, thats after factoring in the BP cost you know...?
and why bother when you can sell BPCs for 18 million and have no effort, leaving the time gained to go earning bounty ISK?
"making things" is a dumb way to earn money atm.
I can see no reason why our corp should manufacture items for sale... it simply isnt worth the tiem investment for Isk returned, and that, for us, is the bottom line.
"Its not worth making things to sell them."
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BatManolo
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Posted - 2003.11.13 16:02:00 -
[3]
If there were any more smilies in that post to keep it from being at all serious...i think i'd check in rehab just to see if i took acid my mistake.
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MOOstradamus
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Posted - 2003.11.13 16:10:00 -
[4]
Edited by: MOOstradamus on 13/11/2003 16:12:12
Quote:
Some people dont want to mine either.
And without "mining your own" it isnt economically viable to produce from purchased minerals.
Raise your prices (goods that is) and kill everybody who undercuts you.
As long as the price of an item, when I want it, is available, costs less than the NPC price and is the cheapest around (I think I usually check 5 or 6 regions - without using a HG I might add  ) then I will purchase it.
Isn't this the way it should be You as a manufacturer shouldn't care about my level of profit as long as you are happily in business and selling to me. And I as a miner shouldn't care less about your level of profit as long as the goods I want are available to buy ... 
MOOrovingian  "Following & supporting EVE (since Jan 2001) is like wiping your arse with sandpaper."
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sim2killa
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Posted - 2003.11.13 16:11:00 -
[5]
bs werent ment to cost 50mill for a level 1 and 85mil for a level 2 they were ment to cost around 126-150 for a level 1 and 200-250mill for a level 2 like at the end of the beta but guess what the market got ****** and that why manufactures dont make money because they ruined the marked by selling way to cheap
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.11.13 16:12:00 -
[6]
I should add that "worth it" is in our case comparable to:
Minimum 3 mil per hour per person bounty.
Average 5 millisk in recycle value per person per hour.
Average 15 mill in loot sale per person per hour.
Now we can spend X days first getting enough billions of mienrals to manufacture the 109 ravens to reach "break even" on the BP....
or we can say "sod taht lark" and go earn more isk whilst selling BPCs.
This is why manufacturing isnt "worth it".
Its a mugs game, although it does allow a few very alrge corps to dominate and make is successful, but over tremendous effort.
The newbie, the small corp and the independent? off the beaten track (ie not ON the highway) - not really.
It is, in our opinion, ironic that pre-highway the farther from the beatent rack you were the more you could charge for an item.
Post highway it is now the opposite.
None of this supports player distribution, which is part of the reason why we see masses in empire highway areas and few elsewhere.
There is no need for people to go elsewhere as their income is supportd 24x7 at the foundation elvel by NPC buy orders.
And if you ahve gotten this far you can see aprt of why Hellmar thinks safe-space mining is a problem.
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.11.13 16:14:00 -
[7]
Quote:
As long as the price of an item, when I want it, is available, costs less than the NPC price and is the cheapest around (I think I usually check 5 or 6 regions - without using a HG I might add ) then I will purchase it.
Then you are exceptionally rare and precious and a highly endangered species... probably even unique. 
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MOOstradamus
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Posted - 2003.11.13 16:16:00 -
[8]
Edited by: MOOstradamus on 13/11/2003 16:20:01
/me hugs Morkt Drak
Yes I am.
Quote:
or we can say "sod taht lark" and go earn more isk whilst selling BPCs.
See as I said - it is ALL the MANUFACTUERS fault as they are the ones who branched out into BP Copy sales because of their greed !!
MOOrovingian "Following & supporting EVE (since Jan 2001) is like wiping your arse with sandpaper."
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.13 16:23:00 -
[9]
Let's end with 2 generalizations
- A successful businessperson is the among the best at what they do
- A successful businessperson doesn't rely on a single revenue stream.
If you want to play businessman and be successful at it, you're going to have to sharpen your game. If you're too lazy to sharpen your game, you fall to the wayside.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
MOOstradamus
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Posted - 2003.11.13 16:38:00 -
[10]
Edited by: MOOstradamus on 13/11/2003 16:45:10
@ JASH ILLIAN: And is your game to demand/ask nicely for everything you don't like or that hinders your personal success/profit be removed from EVE
MOOrovingian "Following & supporting EVE (since Jan 2001) is like wiping your arse with sandpaper."
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.11.13 16:49:00 -
[11]
Quote:
Let's end with 2 generalizations
- A successful businessperson is the among the best at what they do
- A successful businessperson doesn't rely on a single revenue stream.
If you want to play businessman and be successful at it, you're going to have to sharpen your game. If you're too lazy to sharpen your game, you fall to the wayside.
This habit of trying to invoke RL economic witicisms (and lets face it thats all they are) isnt usefull - its just glib flames in weak disguise.
Our corp relied on one single revenue stream for months and was far more succesful doing just that than trying to diversify.
We've gone back to that and made more isk in 3 days than manufacturing/mining made in 30.
But i dont see room for any "game" in all that.. we buy our own BPs of anything we want rather than rely on buying from others and that sup to and including battleships of multiple racial types now.
My point, our point, is simple:
Whats the point in manufacturing for others?
Combine that with NPC buy orders to support those who do, non regionalised markets due to highway associated issues, massive aggregation of players in a tiny empire area (motorway strips) and you dont see what every other MOG out there has (and needs):
Player distribution.
Quote:
If you want to play businessman and be successful at it, you're going to have to sharpen your game.
No im not - im going to carry on making billions doing the same thing and avoid the market all together because its not worth the time or effort.
You cna keep clinging to the vague hope that your ScorpioN BP will yield you billions Jash but, truthfully, it wont.
You should have kept hold of the M2 BP.
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Chucky
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Posted - 2003.11.13 17:12:00 -
[12]
Gee, atleast you had a Billion to buy a LVL 2 bships, gee i wonder were that came from since you don't like to mine
Quote:
I should add that "worth it" is in our case comparable to:
Minimum 3 mil per hour per person bounty.
Average 5 millisk in recycle value per person per hour.
Average 15 mill in loot sale per person per hour.
Now we can spend X days first getting enough billions of mienrals to manufacture the 109 ravens to reach "break even" on the BP....
or we can say "sod taht lark" and go earn more isk whilst selling BPCs.
This is why manufacturing isnt "worth it".
Its a mugs game, although it does allow a few very alrge corps to dominate and make is successful, but over tremendous effort.
The newbie, the small corp and the independent? off the beaten track (ie not ON the highway) - not really.
It is, in our opinion, ironic that pre-highway the farther from the beatent rack you were the more you could charge for an item.
Post highway it is now the opposite.
None of this supports player distribution, which is part of the reason why we see masses in empire highway areas and few elsewhere.
There is no need for people to go elsewhere as their income is supportd 24x7 at the foundation elvel by NPC buy orders.
And if you ahve gotten this far you can see aprt of why Hellmar thinks safe-space mining is a problem.
... you will see more and more marketing which in turn will bring you more players to torture. |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.13 17:41:00 -
[13]
Quote:
Edited by: MOOstradamus on 13/11/2003 16:45:10
@ JASH ILLIAN: And is your game to demand/ask nicely for everything you don't like or that hinders your personal success/profit be removed from EVE
Sorry MOO. Given your current performances, it's obvious that your intention is to be as absurd as possible. I'm not playing that game with you. I personally hate clowns.
It's a straight balance issue and in most cases the suggestions I make are likely to have serious negative affects on my own operations. I have a Tempest blueprint copy to manufacture from and support the removal of blueprint copies. I use the highways just as much as anyone else to do business and seek their removal. I do not have the manpower necessary to go toe to toe with an alliance or major pirate group on a regular basis, yet support getting people out into those areas. Removing the NPC demand for minerals would have an immediate severe negative effect on all manufacturers, myself included.
But instead of being so self-absorbed with my own gameplay that I choose a ****** up status quo, I try to get something done about it. I'm confident in my ability to roll with the punches. Lack of self-confidence on other people's part is not my concern.
And for future reference so long as you decide to act like a clown, you can forget getting a response from me. Clowns are funny only in the circus. Elsewhere I find them more pathetic than amusing.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
nono
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Posted - 2003.11.13 18:30:00 -
[14]
Thanks Mork for pointing out 23 MILLION average per hour on the rat hunting game.
Now transfer that to the thread on how mining scordite is sooooo much more money per hour and is a huge problem.
I don't get around here much anymore but when I do it sure is interesting.
Sounds to me like everything in this game is a problem and I do mean everything. No matter what changes, the flip side always comes up screaming and usually the same people pointing out just how bad it is and that it should be changed again.
Take away NPC mineral demand (five month old thread topic) and watch the bottom drop out of prices completely. The only thing supporting the prices we have is the fact we could sell the minerals instead of building.
Take away that demand and the mineral prices will drop further with people trying to get cash NOW. Drop the mineral price and the ones left manufacturing will not enjoy higher profit they will just drop thier prices to sell thier stuff to get cash NOW.
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Lord Azraiel
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Posted - 2003.11.13 18:50:00 -
[15]
Amen nono.
"I'm comin' for ya, and Hell's comin' with me!" |
Aethelgrin
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Posted - 2003.11.13 18:53:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Aethelgrin on 13/11/2003 18:56:00
Quote:
Take away NPC mineral demand (five month old thread topic) and watch the bottom drop out of prices completely. The only thing supporting the prices we have is the fact we could sell the minerals instead of building.
Take away that demand and the mineral prices will drop further with people trying to get cash NOW. Drop the mineral price and the ones left manufacturing will not enjoy higher profit they will just drop thier prices to sell thier stuff to get cash NOW.
Prices would fall, yes. Competition does that, and it's good for the consumers.
You see, the prices of minerals should be determined by the demand for those minerals against the supply of those minerals. Tritanium and Pyerite are far more common relative the Zydrine and Megacyte than the NPC prices would have you believe, but currently their prices cannot drop below 1 ISK and 4 ISK respectively. The NPC price floor sees to that. Similarly, the price for Megacyte will never rise about about 30,000 ISK, as the NPC price ceiling sees to that.
But that's not a wide enough range.
You even see the basis of the problem, but you don't seem to see it as a problem. You said, "The only thing supporting the prices we have is the fact we could sell the minerals instead of building." So, mineral prices are kept artificially high so you can earn ISK by selling them to NPCs. They are so high, in fact, that that's the best way to make ISK off your minerals. Those who build don't buy minerals, because they can't afford them at NPC prices. The competition in the market has forced prices down almost to their mineral costs, allowing no profit margin to cover the opportunity costs of manufacturing. Increased competition will only force prices lower.
What does that mean for the wider economy? Those who mine for profit only sell to NPCs, because manufacturers can't afford to use minerals they didn't mine themselves. Those who do mine for their own manufacturing then have no incentive to manufacture more than they need for their own use (or that of their corp), because the profit associated with selling the excess minerals would be greater than selling the finished goods (as you've pointed out).
If no one sells manufactured goods, how do people who want manufactured goods get them? They can only manufacture themselves, as there will be NO GOODS FOR SALE.
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.11.13 18:54:00 -
[17]
Quote:
Gee, atleast you had a Billion to buy a LVL 2 bships, gee i wonder were that came from since you don't like to mine
NPC pirate bounties and loot sales - exclusively.
Oh - look - its your favourite icon:
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.11.13 19:01:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Morkt Drak on 13/11/2003 19:06:55
Quote:
Thanks Mork for pointing out 23 MILLION average per hour on the rat hunting game.
Now transfer that to the thread on how mining scordite is sooooo much more money per hour and is a huge problem.
Scordite mining is entirely safe with no risk at all (and is regularly accomplished with macro's).
I'm rat-hunting 49 hops from base past major pirate choke points and actually taking some risk. What i sell soes vary in price and demand and is totally player driven.
Different kettle of fish.
However, please explain to me why I shouldn't grab three apocs with Miner IIs and load up a simple macro to destroy totally safe inner-empire system roidbelts and then sell to guarenteed NPC prices and demand?
.. Im sure we can all see how that is both fun, fair and not exploitative of a system designed only for bootstrapping or the support of newbies?
Oh - look - no we cant.
Quote:
Take away that demand and the mineral prices will drop further with people trying to get cash NOW. Drop the mineral price and the ones left manufacturing will not enjoy higher profit they will just drop thier prices to sell thier stuff to get cash NOW.
Because of the overabundance of BPs and BPCs meaning that you are effectively competing against everybody else. Small groups of manufacturers do very nicely without radical price cutting as exemplified by the M2 days before mission availability of the BP - multiple corps manufacturing making profit... now look at it.
It isnt a reason not to remove NPC mineral buys - its a reason to stop over proliferation of BPs and curtailing of BPCs.
Right effect, wrong cause.
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piij
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Posted - 2003.11.13 19:08:00 -
[19]
Morkt: Your solid NPC demand wont be solid that much longer. Dynamic pricing is going in on chaos now.
Also, any of you guys made > 3 billion ISK yet (personally) ?
I know one that has made about 5 .. only by manufacturing and selling, but i guess that is irrelevant since you havent accomplished such a feat yet.
- Care to watch moo dance?
p.i.i.j |
nono
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Posted - 2003.11.13 19:11:00 -
[20]
Edited by: nono on 13/11/2003 19:23:46
Edited by: nono on 13/11/2003 19:22:20
Edited by: nono on 13/11/2003 19:19:37
Aethelgrin...(to long to post a quote of your reply)
I didn't fail to notice the basis of any problem you think I missed. You can't miss it as it's always going to be a problem no matter what you do.
Prices fell to mineral cost and yes they will fall even more without the artificialy held price of NPC demand. Not a bad thing? Just wait for the threads again on how prices keep dropping further and how pointless it is to manufacture anything.
Loot is better stuff then anything you can manufacture and demands a premium price on the spam market. So do we nerf that too so we can hear that argumement?
This and all topics like it are a continuos SPIN around and around with no end in sight until all avenues of making money for buying, selling or hoarding are wiped out. And to what end?
Back to what I said before (slight hi-jack)about the 23 million/hr rat killing PER PERSON.
Remember Jash's post about how his group went and mined in 0.0 space with all that risk and how it was barely worth the risk when they could have made as much if not more isk in empire space mining? I specifically asked to facter in the money made on bounties and loot.
The answer never came and the thread was abandoned and sank into the deep.
Off to work yet again but before I go and probably never see this thread again...
Edit 1
Morkt: Whoever said anything about Macro's buddy? Ban the bastards and get on with the game then. Argue the point if you like but not with some lame Macro reply.
I leave you all to continue to spin this and other topics like it. The spin will not stop as there can never be an end to it. What a waste of type.
Edit2
Everything here was stated at, or very close to release of the game. Period.
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Arthur Eld
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Posted - 2003.11.13 19:32:00 -
[21]
Wont tech 2+ help allieviate some of the production and sales undercutting that is currently going on? It was my understanding that tech 1 was supposed to be common and available to anyone to buy or produce, but that the BP's for tech 2 and higher were going to much more severly limited in number and without the unlimited BPC's that could be produced the supply for tech 2 items will be much more limited and much higher profit margins could be attained.
Example: The billions that Techell made with miner II's.
Since the intoduction of more BP's, the price has since come down a lot but the profit margin is still in the area of 1000%. Wont production become a much more viable profession once the higher tech levels become available for manufacture?
____________________
First comes smiles, then lies. Last is gunfire. We deal in lead.
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Bargler
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Posted - 2003.11.13 20:38:00 -
[22]
The question this all boils down to is this:
Do you want to live in a virtual world where you success is solely dependent on YOU and how well you perform, or would you rather play a game where success is an inevitability as long as you aren't *too* stupid?
Me? I'd rather be a pauper in a virtual world, watching a real economy unfold around me than play another version of "smack the rat (roid)" and have overflowing coffers.
An analogy, if you will...
Amarr System = New York City, circa 1850
Highways = railroads
Bistot = gold (hard to find, located in remote dangerous areas)
Scordite = corn (easily obtainable in large quantities with little risk)
Now what do we have in Eve today? We have New York City with about a million acres of pristine farmland right in the middle. So much corn production, in fact, that NYC would be an agricultural exporter. We also have our remote gold mining camps with the same manufacturing prowess as NYC. It makes no sense. There is no flow of goods up and down the railroad.
The urban centers should be importing raw goods, and exporting finished goods. It should be *cheaper* to manufacture in NYC than in the remote Rocky Mountains, but that is not the case in Eve.
In my mind, the Devs can either get out of the way and let this economy fix itself (and yes...it will be ugly at times as the econ fluctuates, but it WILL find it's normal prices eventually) or the devs can keep chasing the economy around with shortsighted fixes that are virtually guaranteed to break something down the road.
I wish they would get out of the way.
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.13 20:48:00 -
[23]
Quote:
Wont tech 2+ help allieviate some of the production and sales undercutting that is currently going on? It was my understanding that tech 1 was supposed to be common and available to anyone to buy or produce, but that the BP's for tech 2 and higher were going to much more severly limited in number and without the unlimited BPC's that could be produced the supply for tech 2 items will be much more limited and much higher profit margins could be attained.
Example: The billions that Techell made with miner II's.
Since the intoduction of more BP's, the price has since come down a lot but the profit margin is still in the area of 1000%. Wont production become a much more viable profession once the higher tech levels become available for manufacture?
No, because the mainstay of the economy isn't included in TL2 at this point: ships. Thus far the only ships that have been mentioned to be in the TL2 release are Elite Frigates. That will not support the weight of the market. Nor will a bunch of TL2 modules for the current ships.
The TL1 ships are likely to be the mainstay of the economy for a while. Unless those are included in the system to sa***uard TL2 modules from destroying the market like TL1 did, the effects of being able to buy 1400mm Artillery Howitzer IIs will have a negligable effect on the economy over all.
It'd be like Detroit trying to shore up a flagging auto industry by releasing better mag wheels and fuzzy dice.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Arthur Eld
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Posted - 2003.11.13 21:23:00 -
[24]
But ships are the mainstay of production currently because when profits are based on a percentage of the cost to produce, as they typically are in EVE, you make the most profit from each ship you sell. But with tech level 2 you will still be able to make the ship production equivalent profit for a fraction of the cost to produce.
Say that you could produce 2 things, and for convienence I'll keep things simple.
Miner II's
Bestowers
Cost to produce miner II's = 45k (estimate)
Cost to produce Bestower's = 275k (estimate)
Both sell around 400k. You see you are making way more "profit" from making miner II's. Wouldn't the introduction of tech 2 no longer make ships the staple of production? Forgive me if I am missing something as I don't have extensive experience in the market.
____________________
First comes smiles, then lies. Last is gunfire. We deal in lead.
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Aethelgrin
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Posted - 2003.11.13 21:32:00 -
[25]
Quote:
]Just wait for the threads again on how prices keep dropping further and how pointless it is to manufacture anything.
That's self-correcting. If no one manufactures anything, supply falls. Prices go back up, and we reach a happy equilibrium.
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.11.13 21:53:00 -
[26]
Quote:
Morkt: Your solid NPC demand wont be solid that much longer. Dynamic pricing is going in on chaos now.
Also, any of you guys made > 3 billion ISK yet (personally) ?
I know one that has made about 5 .. only by manufacturing and selling, but i guess that is irrelevant since you havent accomplished such a feat yet.
Me? yes... a fair bit more than. Why? Is there a point to that? Only multi-billionaires are allowed to comment maybe?
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.11.13 21:58:00 -
[27]
Quote:
But ships are the mainstay of production currently because when profits are based on a percentage of the cost to produce, as they typically are in EVE, you make the most profit from each ship you sell. But with tech level 2 you will still be able to make the ship production equivalent profit for a fraction of the cost to produce.
Say that you could produce 2 things, and for convienence I'll keep things simple.
Miner II's
Bestowers
Cost to produce miner II's = 45k (estimate)
Cost to produce Bestower's = 275k (estimate)
Both sell around 400k. You see you are making way more "profit" from making miner II's. Wouldn't the introduction of tech 2 no longer make ships the staple of production? Forgive me if I am missing something as I don't have extensive experience in the market.
M2s on market atm at 125k regionwide and falling by 5 -25k per day regularly.
Ravens cyrrently on sale in trade for 89 million isk - BPC for 18 million.
It requires no effort to make a BPC - lots to get theminerals for a raven AND initial outlayper ship (etc etc).
Hence why so very few produce ships anymore and why BPCs are everywhere.
- - -
Some people will tell you it was all predicited and then bugger off (somehow this is supposd to help us?) Others will tell you to "Go mine it all yourself" (again how does this help?) and other want to know if you havent made 3 billion or you cant comment.
No wonder the market is fubar'd.
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nono
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Posted - 2003.11.14 04:58:00 -
[28]
Quote:
Quote:
]Just wait for the threads again on how prices keep dropping further and how pointless it is to manufacture anything.
That's self-correcting. If no one manufactures anything, supply falls. Prices go back up, and we reach a happy equilibrium.
Are you new? Where has your happy equilibrium been for the past five months then?
Ack home from work and I had to look. I see the other threads continuing to troll away.
Keep it all spinning for it's the only game left it seems.
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MOOstradamus
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Posted - 2003.11.14 08:00:00 -
[29]
Edited by: MOOstradamus on 14/11/2003 11:38:13
Quote:
And for future reference so long as you decide to act like a clown, you can forget getting a response from me. Clowns are funny only in the circus. Elsewhere I find them more pathetic than amusing.
So instead of disputing anything I say you just insult me ... nice. 
So if I'm a clown does that make you and your attitude a joke Better still - I'd describe you more as 'special' as in a retarded spastic that people describe as special so as not to hurt their feelings.
*EDIT: removed flame as you're just not worth it *
Quote:
It's a straight balance issue and in most cases the suggestions I make are likely to have serious negative affects on my own operations.
Fine I take back the second part of my prior claim and slightly amend the rest: "Is it your game to demand that everything and anything is changed that you disagree with merely because you are selfish & clueless "
MOOrovingian "Following & supporting EVE (since Jan 2001) is like wiping your arse with sandpaper."
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