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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1455
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Posted - 2015.06.23 00:11:44 -
[1] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Nicholas Goldfinder wrote:lol
you can't kill a booster and you think you are not bad?
something is wrong here... How you suggest killing boosters for solo/small gang players when they can instantly dock or jump gate, or need perfect skill prober with implants to find quickly?
No longer need that. if they can have a booster alt. Why do you feel like its such a problem having a prober alt?
More ships in space = better. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1455
|
Posted - 2015.06.23 20:55:18 -
[2] - Quote
Varrinox wrote:To the ones who based the validity of my argument upon my killboard. When I do decide to play, which I rare now days, I am an FC for the most part and as such usually have more pilots than just myself on the killmail. Usually a mix new bros that have never PvP'd and I try to teach them the ropes in the Amarr Militia and more regular names that just like to fly with me. Granted I rarely manage to pull any meaningful numbers like back in the day when my militia fleets used to get 20-30 fairly regularly, but such is EvEs population decline.
Base your argument on fact of the mechanics impact directly upon each individuals experience of the game not your opinion of the one stating his opinion of the impact on the game. Doing anything other than this is just mindless smack talk.
Don't get me wrong, I love EvE, it's concept is superior to every other game ever made. Alas it has lost it's was in my opinion and needs a lot of changes. Kill2 and Fozzie have made good changes in particular with ship balancing as it has made all races viable at all levels of PvP, bar a few exceptions.
I would love to see 50k+ pilots online at peak times like I did when i first started playing [2010] but rarely see above 25k now. I used to make tutorial videos on YouTube also to help new pilots learn because CCP did such a god awful job of teaching them everything there is to know in this vast game, granted that is no easy task. Hell I would love to see Eve break 100k pilots online, but in its current state that would not be viable in terms of attracting new players and retaining them and having the hardware capable of running nodes effectively to give people those huge fleet fights that get talked about and actually be a fun minute to minute game play experience.
Anyway this is fast become me writing a love letter to my estranged mistress Ms.Eve Online.
Edit - I should also add that in previous post I used the word "Solo" to indicate just 1 account 1 person 1 PC. Not pure solo PvP.
I hope you have a good day, week, month, year and live. May your awake hours be full of laughter and joy and dreams full of your most pleasurable desires.
Varr
Solo pilots have always been in a stark minority. The game shines at a fleet level. The bulk of people play to get into a good small to medium size slugfest.
The vocal minority of 'soloers' who are supposed to be pro but do nothing more than whine about how unfair the game is are a joke. Balancing the game at the solo level will do nothing for eve subscription numbers imo. Encouraging people to step up and take fleets out and create content is really the way to keep eve going.
As per usual, the main problem is the players choices, not the game as such. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1455
|
Posted - 2015.06.23 21:10:13 -
[3] - Quote
Haatakan Reppola wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote: As per usual, the main problem is the players choices, not the game as such.
Sadly that player choice is: Dont engage, bring your booster alt or join a fleet. There should be a real option to do solo PvP. I dont have time to find a fleet to roam with every day, that means i do PvE instead since that is something i can do whenever i feel like it without having to bring an army online (suicide PvP is only fun the first 1-2 times, good fights are fun every time)
There is a real option to do solo pvp. Just undock and go fight. Its not supposed to be easy, or fair. You are supposed to kill or die then say gf regardless.
Fact is that eve is an mmo. Its amazing how many people are constantly searching for this solo nirvana in a game that isnt build for it.
If you just want to log on and do some meaningless 1v1s, go to a trade hub and check to see whos doing legit duels.
Or join a proper pvp corp in your timezone and you wont have to spend ages looking for a fleet. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1455
|
Posted - 2015.06.23 21:34:16 -
[4] - Quote
Every avatar is not at an equal footing, by design. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1461
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Posted - 2015.06.25 07:27:27 -
[5] - Quote
Removing boosts would massively effect fleet warfare.
Doctrines would trend towards being cheaper and the ratio of logistics and remote assistance modules in fleet would have to increace dramatically.
It wouldnt make much sense flying anything other than alpha fleets since alpha thresholds would be so low even in relatively small fights.
Basically, it would just be a game of instant knockout favouring the side with greater numbers (not accounting for fleet discipline), just as it is to some extent in the large scale fleet fights. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1462
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Posted - 2015.06.25 22:05:14 -
[6] - Quote
Worrying about the potential outcome of a stupid idea is hardly productive.
Give boosters a weapon and suspect timer forcing them to boost from a safe and be vulnerable from a similarly dedicated probing ship (like a t3d). And put them on killmails.
That is pretty much all anyone needs to identify and kill, or at least bring boosters into the general gameplay.
There will still be those that are too lazy to probe things out as they think they game is broken unless a steady flow of inferior ships fly at them one by one throughout the time they are undocked. For everyone else, that would most likely be a welcome and fair change in the boosting meta. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1462
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 08:38:59 -
[7] - Quote
You mean the idea is to kill OGB without putting any effort in yurself. Spokem like one of these new generaton of mileniel soloers whos sole skill is constatntly whining about links, blobs, implants, OP ships, odd fits and pretty much anything else..
Beacons have to be the single worst idea for OGB out there so dedicating more than one post apologising for such a bad idea is a waste of time. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1462
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 08:48:03 -
[8] - Quote
afkalt wrote:So tell me how you're going to catch one, EVER once the fleet changes go.
Unless it's shitfit.
I look forward to your brilliance.
It doesnt matter, its useless to discuss such horrible ideas. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1462
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Posted - 2015.06.26 09:00:42 -
[9] - Quote
afkalt wrote:So you concede they're literally going to be uncatchable. Back to the 100% uncatchable links days.
Such skill. Much wow.
For one, im saying the idea is horrible. So you cant argue with me as though im an advocate for it lol.
For another, just a long point cov ops to get an initial warp, Wait for booster to reach 150km then hit another probe cycle, unloak in warp, point and call dps.
Not to mention the fact a solo booster (4 links), since various changes, is never going to have that ratio of sig to sensor strength. So not only are you arguing with me about an idea that we both seem to disagree with, you are doing so with a lack of aptitude for playing eve, eve mechaics in general and also throwing out some crappy meme to further cement why some people are best left out of the brainstorming threads on the forum.
For fleet boosters, i dont see a whole lot of pushback against them, its really just the trusoloers that constantly whine about the mechanic making their arbitrary choise to fly solo too hard. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1462
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 09:16:42 -
[10] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:Not to mention the fact a solo booster (4 links), since various changes, is never going to have that ratio of sig to sensor strength. So not only are you arguing with me about an idea that we both seem to disagree with, you are doing so with a lack of ap[titude for to playing eve, eve mechaics in general and also throwing out some crappy meme to further cement why some people are best left out of the brainstorming threads on the forum. Good luck catching it with a cloaking targeting delay. Are you really that silly? The thing will warp the minute you decloak.
If thats the assumption then no booster is ever going to be caught regardless of any changes. Oddly, they do though so assuming that they will warp as something arrives on grid / decloaks as it lands is another bad assumption to support an argument that you seem to be having with yourself about a horrible idea.
As for the fit, probing mechanics set a bottleneck for the sensor strength:sig ratio much lower than the numbers you actually posted. I believe its 90%. So for this example the effective sensor strength will be ~143.
All boosters, regardless of how they are fit are currently probable with a bonused hull and perfect skills with no implants. |
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1462
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 09:28:28 -
[11] - Quote
Domino Vyse wrote:When will you nerds accept the fact that CCP doesn't give a damn?
Wouldnt bother me, i dont mind the mechanics as they are.
But i accept that suspect timers/weapons timers would bring boosts into play for people who are willing to put as much effort into catching them as their owners did in creating them.
Putting boosts (and logi) on killmails is really just to appease the lazy vocal millennial soloists a little. So they can at least take some solace in that they are much better than the skilless guy that just killed them even though he is in a pod reshipping and that guy still has his ship :) |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1462
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 09:41:17 -
[12] - Quote
afkalt wrote: What was challenging today steps into the realms of wholly unreasonable and unrealistic when the fleet warps change. CCP even acknowledged this as a problem with the changes.
Unreasonable to dedicate a ship to tackling another ship that is dedicated to boosting?
[Helios, New Setup 1] Damage Control II Reinforced Bulkheads II Co-Processor II
5MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive Warp Disruptor II Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script Scan Rangefinding Array II [empty med slot]
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II Sisters Expanded Probe Launcher, Sisters Combat Scanner Probe
Small Targeting Systems Stabilizer II Small Targeting Systems Stabilizer II
3.7 seconds recal, will probably take that long to warp from its initial warp in 150km away so align, decloak as you hit warp, land and tackle.
If he warps, he would have warped before or after any change. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1462
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 10:09:35 -
[13] - Quote
afkalt wrote:The margin for error is now too huge. The best way was slingshotting proper tackle hulls over, that's dead. You'll not get anywhere near them now, too much warning. It's questionable that you'll even be able to land close enough tbh. Maybe with your own links, heat, faction point.
You know it, I know it and CCP knows and acknowledges it.
What are you talking about?
As i have said 3 times.
- Warp to scan result - Wait for booster to reach 150km - Align to booster - Run another cycle on probes (~8 seconds) - De-cloak and warp (3-4 seconds) - Land within 15km of booster with OH sebo and point. - Point, or watch him warp away.
If he didnt see the probes, its likely he wont see the cov ops. If he did see the cov ops, its likely he would have seen the ceptor.
I dont really like the fleet warp changes, but saying boosts are uncatchable is just not true. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1462
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 15:30:53 -
[14] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:[quote=Domino Vyse]Putting boosts (and logi) on killmails is really just to appease the lazy vocal millennial soloists a little. So they can at least take some solace in that they are much better than the skilless guy that just killed them even though he is in a pod reshipping and that guy still has his ship :) I hope you realize how unreasonable that line of reasoning is. Killmail hoaring should only be possible when you activate a module on somebody's ship, or damage or affect their ship in some way, for example with a smart bomb. An argument could be made that a logistics ship should show up on the killmail if the person they were healing dies (for all I know they already do). For a logi to show up on a killmail for which they had no direct interaction would not make any sense. But the idea that a neutral alt who just happens to be in fleet with a person, and just happens to giving his fleet members in the same system warfare bonuses, should show up on killmails that his fleet members get, is simply ridiculous. I would argue that per each kill that happens in this game, only one player should be on said killmail, or earn a "kill" from it on their killboard, and that is the player who actually got the kill. In other words, get rid of killmail hoaring so that kills actually mean something. Now THAT would be a meaningful change if we are trying to appease trusoloers.
Of all the batty ideas out there regarding boosters, bringing them onto mails is one of the sanest. If mails are supposed to be an honest representation of what happened then its very fair to expect boosters to be there given their contribution. As for killmail whoring, ill say yet again, any contribution, not matter how minor is useful. It isnt misrepresented, its very clear to see at a glance who were the main participants in an engagement.
If it were possible (which is probably isnt), id even go s far as to put specialist roles on the BR too. Perhaps someones roll is just to stay out of range and jam a loki to minimise the hostile fleets ability to apply damage. Somehow that griffin should be recorded even if that loki did not die since its role is very important.
There is a mechanic for POS killmails that already does something like this. If you are on the POS km, you are automatically registered on the modules km even if you didnt shoot them (assuming they die). If fleet members could be grouped and treated the same way a cluster of pos mouiles and tower are, then batle reports would be a better indication of events. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1463
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 23:39:03 -
[15] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote:Haatakan Reppola wrote:
So your saying logistics dont help with the fights or that boosters dont help the fleet? Logistics and boosters change the outcome of an equal fight, they dont to much for blobbers tho
They don't directly affect the ships that their fleet members fight against, no. So I don't see how anyone can claim they belong on killmails of ships which they did not directly affect. They passively help their fleet members. It would make more sense to put them on the lossmails of the fleet members they are boosting, but to put them on killmails of ships which they had no direct effect on is silly.
Dont think even a remotely a fair way to look at it.
Its called a battle report, not a loss report. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1463
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 23:42:47 -
[16] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote: A kill is a kill. But the way killmails work currently, you take one kill, and you have to multiply that kill by the amount of people who whor'ed on it, so that every single killmailwhore gets a "kill", while in reality there was only one kill.
That would only be misrepresenting, if there was a single player out there that wasnt aware of that fact.
it gets recorded as a single kill on 50 people board, but its just a single kill and no one is under any other impression. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1463
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 23:45:11 -
[17] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Dont think even a remotely a fair way to look at it.
Its called a battle report, not a loss report.
So we should put spy alts, , covert ops alts and anything else that may have a minor passive effect on a battle onto killmails too, then, right?
Within reason, why not? |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1463
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 23:48:20 -
[18] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote: A kill is a kill. But the way killmails work currently, you take one kill, and you have to multiply that kill by the amount of people who whor'ed on it, so that every single killmailwhore gets a "kill", while in reality there was only one kill.
That would only be misrepresenting, if there was a single player out there that wasnt aware of that fact. No, it is misrepresenting, because that's the way the killboards view it. If all the players are aware of the fact then there is no reason to keep it the way it is. It's simply a tool to build up blob-F1-players's killboard statistics.
But there is no reason to change it. Everyone is already aware that some kills are solo and some are not. All the details are on the mail.
If you could clarify what problem you are trying to fix i could start understanding you.
As i undestand it, you want every kill to look like a solo fight?
How is it possible that someone with an IQ of more than 65 could thing that is an improvement over what we have now? |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1463
|
Posted - 2015.06.26 23:55:05 -
[19] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Dont think even a remotely a fair way to look at it.
Its called a battle report, not a loss report.
So we should put spy alts, , covert ops alts and anything else that may have a minor passive effect on a battle onto killmails too, then, right? Within reason, why not? Because it is not within reason. You might as well put the miners and industrialists who built your weapons onto the killmail, too, then. No, I think that what's within reason, is that anyone who directly affects a ship with a module, should be put on the killmail. You can't start putting people on killmails who had literally no participation in the battle, and that includes the fleet booster. He's not in the battle, and he doesn't have to be anywhere near it. He's riding off to the sun smoking a cigar.
Thats some crazy slippery slope fallacy there mate.
If you are performing a direct role in a fight (which includes boosters and logistics), then its a fair consideration to mention them on killmails. I understand you have a stupid idea of what killboards should be, i just dont understand your motivation. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1463
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Posted - 2015.06.27 00:07:22 -
[20] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote:Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote: There are ways to reward and acknowledge a player's contributions to a kill without actually rewarding him with a kill. Simply put, you shouldn't get over 1,000 kills on your killboard simply because you did 1% of the damage on a thousand different killmails. A minor recognition of your participation in said killmails, however, would of course be acceptable.
Killmails and killboards are completely separate entities and need to be treated as such. However, it's pretty unfair to expect anyone to develop a killboard that is a better story teller than the current crop when the killmails are so restricted. In addition, I'd be surprised if you've never been involved in a nice kill that took a very inventive cov-ops probing tackler to land the prey before the rest of a fleet blobbed it and did more than 1% damage. You can start filtering out single aspects and loose much of the story. One of the skills I would celebrate most is the art of catching a target. They might not do any damage (eg: first interdictor on the field on a supercap kill). You can tell the story without lying about it, though. The killboards state that Random Player got a kill while in the actual game all he did was tracking disrupt the target for two seconds while somebody else got the kill. To say that the player who tracking disrupted him for two seconds got the kill is an outright lie, but that's what the killboards say, all of the time. You can still show who contributed to the kill. Just don't give them a "kill" on their statistics that they didn't get.
removing information from killmails doesnt help tell a wider story, by definition.
Only adding information does.
No one that has any experience in EVE is currently being mislead by killboard statistics and what they represent.
Your true motivations here are clearly hidden because what you have said has zero consistency. |
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1463
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Posted - 2015.06.27 00:29:00 -
[21] - Quote
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote:Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote: There are ways to reward and acknowledge a player's contributions to a kill without actually rewarding him with a kill. Simply put, you shouldn't get over 1,000 kills on your killboard simply because you did 1% of the damage on a thousand different killmails. A minor recognition of your participation in said killmails, however, would of course be acceptable.
Killmails and killboards are completely separate entities and need to be treated as such. However, it's pretty unfair to expect anyone to develop a killboard that is a better story teller than the current crop when the killmails are so restricted. In addition, I'd be surprised if you've never been involved in a nice kill that took a very inventive cov-ops probing tackler to land the prey before the rest of a fleet blobbed it and did more than 1% damage. You can start filtering out single aspects and loose much of the story. One of the skills I would celebrate most is the art of catching a target. They might not do any damage (eg: first interdictor on the field on a supercap kill). You can tell the story without lying about it, though. The killboards state that Random Player got a kill while in the actual game all he did was tracking disrupt the target for two seconds while somebody else got the kill. To say that the player who tracking disrupted him for two seconds got the kill is an outright lie, but that's what the killboards say, all of the time. You can still show who contributed to the kill. Just don't give them a "kill" on their statistics that they didn't get. removing information from killmails doesnt help tell a wider story, by definition. Only adding information does. No one that has any experience in EVE is currently being mislead by killboard statistics and what they represent. Your true motivations here are clearly hidden because what you have said has zero consistency. It is the story that is important. If I can browse a killboard that has access to timestamps for actions and lists of effects on ships involved (not just the target) it gives me a quick overview on the story of the fight. Why do you think so many people record and show their PvP footage - and even this is limited from a single POV? Once again. Data on a killboard is down to the Killboard developer, not CCP. However, I am all in favour of CCP improving killmail data that is API passed on. The current kill data feels like it's from the 2nd generation kill stats from 2006 or so. Sometimes a single jam cycle from a Griffin is the only reason the only ship holding point was able to survive and kill the target. Just another example of lost story by using a filter (censor) on certain attributes.
Why are you replying to me? i already gave that exact example of how killboards could be imporved.
I think ares wants the total kills to represent final blows rather than kills participated in. If thats all then whatver. Seems like something someone who already puts too much credence into killboards would worry about. Also seems like a lot of fleet roles would never get a final blow so kill totals would only really represent those who only fly dps who might never get a final blow should other roles not be fulfilled. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1463
|
Posted - 2015.06.27 00:40:54 -
[22] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote:I apologize for my unintelligible posts.
But yeah, that's basically what I was suggesting. Killboards shouldn't give players kills for things they did not kill.
You realise that final blows are more about alpha and timing than skill or deserving?
Ive seen more than a couple of archon kills with a t1 frigate or logistics as final blow.
So you have yet to explain why this notion is more optimal, specially when there is literally no one that thinks ive solod 14,000 kills when they look at my killboard. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1463
|
Posted - 2015.06.27 00:59:31 -
[23] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote:I apologize for my unintelligible posts.
But yeah, that's basically what I was suggesting. Killboards shouldn't give players kills for things they did not kill. You realise that final blows are more about alpha and timing than skill or deserving? Ive seen more than a couple of archon kills with a t1 frigate or logistics as final blow. So you have yet to explain why this notion is more optimal, specially when there is literally no one that thinks ive solod 14,000 kills when they look at my killboard. Yeah. I don't think it really matters. I think the truth is more important. Whoever gets the kill in the game should get the "kill" on the killboard. But as Master Sergeant Macrobert pointed out, data on a killboard is down to killboard developer and not CCP, which I didn't really even consider before I started posting about this. It doesn't change my view. But it makes me realize the people who run the killboards simply don't care and it will most likely never change; they will continue to lie to support the blob. By the way, no one thinks you've soloed 14,000 kills when they look at your killboard. The problem is that is exactly what the killboard states, and it is a lie.
Not in the slightest.
The killboard states that ive been on 14000 kills. Thats the truth, and what everyone takes away from it.
There has to be some sort of deception for a lie to exist. Since there is not, you are once again using incorrect terminology. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1463
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Posted - 2015.06.27 01:39:17 -
[24] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote:Except it doesn't state that.
Let's have some examples.
Zkillboard states that you have destroyed 14,428 ships. Which is a lie.
Battleclinic states that you have 13,977 kills.
The only logical conclusion a person can come to when they read that you have 13,977 kills, is that you killed 13,977 ships.
Of course, we know better. We know the game is rigged. But that doesn't make it anything other than a lie.
This has to be the stupidest thing i have ever read on the eve forum.
You are so certain you are making a critical point. But im not sure anyone knows what it is. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1463
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Posted - 2015.06.27 03:04:34 -
[25] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote:Well, how about go suck a bag of dicks then.
Thats what i thought, sorry that under these proposals your secret high sec links would be exposed. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1463
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Posted - 2015.06.27 14:30:09 -
[26] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote:Well, how about go suck a bag of dicks then. Thats what i thought, sorry that under these proposals your secret high sec links would be exposed. I'm not even against the suspect / weapons timer
No, you are just irrationally against support ships showing up on kills even though they can play a pivotal role. |
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