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Once again, I'm paying to be a beta tester... *sigh*

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Solstice Day	Posted - 2006.11.29 23:33:00 - [1] I've been playing online games since the early 80's and I was here with the MMO revolution started with EQ. One thing that has distressed me since the first MMO and continues to distress me is the current developer philosophy of, "**** the bugs, full revenue ahead!" I predicted long before Revelations came out that it wouldn't be an upgrade, rather a downgrade and CCP surely didn't disappoint me. Rather than fix the bugs in RMR, they blindly forged ahead with Kali thinking only of the revenue generated by drawing in new players. Any new bugs generated would surely be found by those 'beta testers' that eagerly fork over their monthly fee and would just be added to the collection of known bugs they still haven't fixed. It's rather obvious that this was all about drawing in new players since all the old players got the proverbial skill stick up the ass while new players get essentially a free month of play. Now, rather than having a fun, stable environment, we get the true Revelation: All bugs in EVE can be fixed by hitting CTL-Q. It seems to me, that if MMO developers were forced to work for gaming console companies where you can't afford to release software with bugs, that this practice of using paying customers as beta testers would cease and I would be able to enjoy what I pay for. Unfortunately, greed overrides stability every time. /me shrugs When will it end? P.S. Flame away, but you know I'm right.
Trishtan DeMore Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2006.11.29 23:34:00 - [2] Edited by: Trishtan DeMore on 29/11/2006 23:40:36 Edited by: Trishtan DeMore on 29/11/2006 23:35:35 80's ... sure ... revolution ... EQ ... Sure .... more like 90's and UO back in your cave, troll! EQ Release: 1999 UO Release: 1997 Wonder what kinda MMO you played in the 80's? Snake on the sharp? :D
Insomnious Gallente ReD eYe Inc.	Posted - 2006.11.29 23:36:00 - [3] Edited by: Insomnious on 29/11/2006 23:36:20 /me signed Solstice Day, "THUMBS UP"!
Xaroth Brook Minmatar Doomcraft	Posted - 2006.11.29 23:37:00 - [4] How about.. you bugreport whatever bug you find rather than complain about it? I've noticed bugs getting fixed, you should have seen SISI when they were first testing kali.. you couldn't even target something without your complete interface messing up... the fact it doesn't now, means THEY FIXED A BUG! oh, and Ultima Online and Ragnarok Online started the "MMO Revolution".. EQ came later. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Xaroth Brook Brainiac of Doomcraft Member of R I S E
Locke DieDrake Human Information Virus	Posted - 2006.11.29 23:38:00 - [5] Edited by: Locke DieDrake on 29/11/2006 23:39:35 Originally by: Solstice Day I've been playing online games since the early 80's and I was here with the MMO revolution started with EQ. One thing that has distressed me since the first MMO and continues to distress me is the current developer philosophy of, "** the bugs, full revenue ahead!" I predicted long before Revelations came out that it wouldn't be an upgrade, rather a downgrade and CCP surely didn't disappoint me. Rather than fix the bugs in RMR, they blindly forged ahead with Kali thinking only of the revenue generated by drawing in new players. Any new bugs generated would surely be found by those 'beta testers' that eagerly fork over their monthly fee and would just be added to the collection of known bugs they still haven't fixed. It's rather obvious that this was all about drawing in new players since all the old players got the proverbial skill stick up the ass while new players get essentially a free month of play. Now, rather than having a fun, stable environment, we get the true Revelation: All bugs in EVE can be fixed by hitting CTL-Q. It seems to me, that if MMO developers were forced to work for gaming console companies where you can't afford to release software with bugs, that this practice of using paying customers as beta testers would cease and I would be able to enjoy what I pay for. Unfortunately, greed overrides stability every time. /me shrugs When will it end? P.S. Flame away, but you know I'm right. I don't there is a single sentance in this post that isn't total BS. The 80's? Are you ***** kidding me? What was the MMO revolution in the 80's? Do you even know? Were you even old enough to talk yet? For that matter, if you really think EQ was the "mmo revolution" you are either brain damaged or a typical 13yo forum troll with no actual accounting of facts. Either way, the only thing EQ revolutionized was your parents basement. ______________________________________________ Such a heavy burden now to be the one Born to bear and bring to all The details of our ending
Anna Grahm	Posted - 2006.11.29 23:38:00 - [6] Captain Obvious to the rescue... If you don't like it THEN DON'T PLAY. I know, foreign concept to sheeple but try it.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.29 23:38:00 - [7] Actually, I know you're not right. 1) The people who fix server bugs are not the people who create new space ships or design the new contracts system. They're different people. True you could havee half of CCP stop working while the other half carries on like they always have, but that wouldn't make much sense. 2) Half the bugs that came up in Revelations are bugs that only occour under the full stress of 25k players on server- something you can never replicate and test ona closed server. By the nature of MMOs, theres no way of testing the final product, except by launching it and seeing how it fairs. Gaming console games - single player games - can be tested at full capacity in their final state months before their release. 3) I have been playing for well over a year (and so not a new player) and I am certainly pleased that CCP released this free expansion. Its not jsut about new players, because I know I - and a vast chunk of the player-base - wanted it too. 4) Can I have your stuff? -----------------------------------------------
Solstice Day	Posted - 2006.11.29 23:41:00 - [8] Originally by: Xaroth Brook How about.. you bugreport whatever bug you find rather than complain about it? I've noticed bugs getting fixed, you should have seen SISI when they were first testing kali.. you couldn't even target something without your complete interface messing up... the fact it doesn't now, means THEY FIXED A BUG! oh, and Ultima Online and Ragnarok Online started the "MMO Revolution".. EQ came later. How about this... They take my monthy fee combined with yours and hire professionals to TEST their software BEFORE dumping it on the public. If they want me to be a beta tester and report bugs, then they can hire me and pay me because that's an OCCUPATION. I'm here to be entertained, not work.
Viru Vin	Posted - 2006.11.29 23:42:00 - [9] Originally by: Solstice Day I've been playing online games since the early 80's and I was here with the MMO revolution started with EQ. One thing that has distressed me since the first MMO and continues to distress me is the current developer philosophy of, "** the bugs, full revenue ahead!" P.S. Flame away, but you know I'm right. surely if CCP was about "** the bugs, full revune ahead!" they would charge for the expansions?
Moridin Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2006.11.29 23:45:00 - [10] can i have some chease with that wine. go into the OLD patch notes and look at the unholy list of mess that HAS been fixed. if you were playing that game back then you would have quit instantly

Darion Kell Placid Reborn Placid Coalition	Posted - 2006.11.29 23:46:00 - [11] Unless you played Star Wars Galaxies around the time of the New Game Enhancements launch, you have no right to talk about, "paying to be a beta-tester."
Solstice Day	Posted - 2006.11.29 23:47:00 - [12] I don't there is a single sentance in this post that isn't total BS. The 80's? Are you ******* kidding me? What was the MMO revolution in the 80's? Do you even know? Were you even old enough to talk yet? For that matter, if you really think EQ was the "mmo revolution" you are either brain damaged or a typical 13yo forum troll with no actual accounting of facts. Either way, the only thing EQ revolutionized was your parents basement. Mud1. 1980... Richard Bartle and Roy Trubshaw... look it up. Did I say the MMO revolution started in the 80? No, read AND comprehend... I know they teach that in Kintergarten so you should be able to handle that. So typical of you feeble minded types. When you can't state facts or back up your opinions, you resort to insults to prove your point. And if you think for one SECOND that you're not paying to be a beta tester on ANY MMO then you really do have your head up your ass.
Locke DieDrake Human Information Virus	Posted - 2006.11.29 23:48:00 - [13] Originally by: Solstice Day Originally by: Xaroth Brook How about.. you bugreport whatever bug you find rather than complain about it? I've noticed bugs getting fixed, you should have seen SISI when they were first testing kali.. you couldn't even target something without your complete interface messing up... the fact it doesn't now, means THEY FIXED A BUG! oh, and Ultima Online and Ragnarok Online started the "MMO Revolution".. EQ came later. How about this... They take my monthy fee combined with yours and hire professionals to TEST their software BEFORE dumping it on the public. If they want me to be a beta tester and report bugs, then they can hire me and pay me because that's an OCCUPATION. I'm here to be entertained, not work. HAHA. ooh. Ok, got my breath now. Lets start over. Hi, welcome to the internet and online gaming. Where things don't work the way you think they should. Where reality often comes with a broken nose because you couldn't bother to look up before walking into and where people like you are the toys we play with when we can't get home and log on. Seriously, you are a twit. You don't have any clue how the real world works, much less how complex server/client software works. Nor the fact that this is probably one of the LEAST buggy expansions to an MMO I've ever seen. And unlike you, I've actually been around the block a few times. I know how things work, and I'm still suprised by people like you on occasion. They always manage to invent a better fool... ______________________________________________ Such a heavy burden now to be the one Born to bear and bring to all The details of our ending
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.29 23:49:00 - [14] Originally by: Solstice Day Originally by: Xaroth Brook How about.. you bugreport whatever bug you find rather than complain about it? I've noticed bugs getting fixed, you should have seen SISI when they were first testing kali.. you couldn't even target something without your complete interface messing up... the fact it doesn't now, means THEY FIXED A BUG! oh, and Ultima Online and Ragnarok Online started the "MMO Revolution".. EQ came later. How about this... They take my monthy fee combined with yours and hire professionals to TEST their software BEFORE dumping it on the public. If they want me to be a beta tester and report bugs, then they can hire me and pay me because that's an OCCUPATION. I'm here to be entertained, not work. Tum ti tum, I'll try again, shall I? This MMO operates ona server with 25k + live accounts all logged on at once, all making demands on the databases, all kicking the poo out of the nodes. There is no way to replicate this in test condidtions- you can't pay 25k testers to do it for you, they don't even have the hardware to support a second TQ sized server to run the tests on. Unlike your single player games, which can be tested in full, at their max capacity, by a single tester for weeks and months before release, an MMO cannot. The only way to see if the software works when used by 25k people at once is to actually let it be used by 25k people at once. Thats life. -----------------------------------------------
Solstice Day	Posted - 2006.11.29 23:49:00 - [15] Originally by: Anna Grahm Captain Obvious to the rescue... If you don't like it THEN DON'T PLAY. I know, foreign concept to sheeple but try it. How about this. Instead of me having to abstain from these games to show them how much I dislike their greedy philosophies, they change the way they do business and provide... get this word... quality entertainment.
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror	Posted - 2006.11.29 23:50:00 - [16] Originally by: Darion Kell Unless you played Star Wars Galaxies around the time of the New Game Enhancements launch, you have no right to talk about, "paying to be a beta-tester." lol, sure, whatever buddy. i guess i haven't earned my stripes yet I agree w/ ya Solstice. If no change by weekend, i wont be a paying beta tester anymore
Irashi Caldari Hunters Agency Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.29 23:53:00 - [17] Originally by: Solstice Day It seems to me, that if MMO developers were forced to work for gaming console companies where you can't afford to release software with bugs, that this practice of using paying customers as beta testers would cease and I would be able to enjoy what I pay for. Haven't you played Just Cause then? ________________________________________
Emperor D'Hoffryn No Quarter.	Posted - 2006.11.29 23:55:00 - [18] I love it when people compare old, simple games, to new, complex games, and wonder why the new game has more bugs. Originally by: Tuxford Yes we don't play on our main accounts simply because you would lose all respect for us
Skokeh Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.11.29 23:55:00 - [19] Originally by: Anna Grahm Captain Obvious to the rescue... If you don't like it THEN DON'T PLAY. I know, foreign concept to sheeple but try it. Stop whining, CCP are V good overall, and u just got yet another free expansion from them...... Go and play WOW if ur so interested in stability - but the result is boredom and predictabilty
Lisento Slaven Amarr The Drekla Consortium Kurai Komichi	Posted - 2006.11.29 23:56:00 - [20] All he said was that bugs should be fixed before the game (expansion in this case) is released to the public. There are some bugs that are not capable of being spotted on the test server without having the full load of the population on the game. There are some very obvious bugs in the first moments of gameplay that would have been spotted by anybody - but the deadline is more important than getting these fixed. That's because they can "fix them soon" and people will tolerate the bugs. The big bugs are the ones that get fixed quickly. I have played a lot of games that are released and it doesn't even feel like the developers played said game (Age of Empires 3 anyone?). With EVE I haven't seen any super-bugs, just gameplay issues that detract from the game. Kind of like how no one thought "Hey...maybe we should put a visible differentiation between empty wrecks and wrecks with loot...that would REALLY help..." Note: I read in a diff topic there are plans to differentiate between empty wrecks and wrecks with stuff in them. I hope that's true =P --- Lisento Slaven wants to be a Space Whaler in EVE. Put in space whales!

checkplease	Posted - 2006.11.29 23:57:00 - [21] Edited by: checkplease on 29/11/2006 23:58:09 It seems to me, that if MMO developers were forced to work for gaming console companies where you can't afford to release software with bugs, that this practice of using paying customers as beta testers would cease and I would be able to enjoy what I pay for. Unfortunately, greed overrides stability every time. /me shrugs When will it end? P.S. Flame away, but you know I'm right. u seem to have very litte idea how different PC and game console's are when consoles are made there all the friggin same standards. sadly computers dont have a exacting standard or identical opperating systems, you cannot use that as a valid arguement.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.29 23:57:00 - [22] Heh, MUDs wern't MMOS. Most rarely had more than a few hundred people- thas just a Multiplayer game, not a MMO. If anyone compares running a several hundred player text based game to running a 25k player full 3D graphical monstrosity like EVE, they havea screw loose............. -----------------------------------------------
Sinnbad Mayhem	Posted - 2006.11.29 23:57:00 - [23] you ungrateful wretch, where do u fly?
Locke DieDrake Human Information Virus	Posted - 2006.11.29 23:58:00 - [24] Originally by: Solstice Day I don't there is a single sentance in this post that isn't total BS. The 80's? Are you ******* kidding me? What was the MMO revolution in the 80's? Do you even know? Were you even old enough to talk yet? For that matter, if you really think EQ was the "mmo revolution" you are either brain damaged or a typical 13yo forum troll with no actual accounting of facts. Either way, the only thing EQ revolutionized was your parents basement. Mud1. 1980... Richard Bartle and Roy Trubshaw... look it up. Did I say the MMO revolution started in the 80? No, read AND comprehend... I know they teach that in Kintergarten so you should be able to handle that. So typical of you feeble minded types. When you can't state facts or back up your opinions, you resort to insults to prove your point. And if you think for one SECOND that you're not paying to be a beta tester on ANY MMO then you really do have your head up your ass. Do they teach you how to spell in this fabled kintergarten?. Or are you just going to call that a typo? I happen to know a bit about software design, game design and testing. Having been a professional tester for interplay. So when I tell you that eve is far from being a "beta" I mean it. Are there bugs, you bet. No doubt. Is that entirely normal? Yes. Welcome to software design 101. You fail. ______________________________________________ Such a heavy burden now to be the one Born to bear and bring to all The details of our ending

Deckard Bishop Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2006.11.29 23:58:00 - [25] click ranting is not allowed forum rules \| [email protected] \| Our Website!

Loyal Servant Caldari Cornhole Inc. The SUdden Death Squad	Posted - 2006.11.29 23:59:00 - [26] Ok, lets settle down. Yes, his timeline is wrong. OP has some valid points, but I think that my explanation here may be closer to reality.. I have reported bugs here on the forums, used the bug submission process online, and as far back as a year ago. A year ago I reported some bugs, if you call them bugs - more like quirks. They have yet to be fixed, a year later. Thing is, these are not showstoppers. Spending time on the non-showstopping bugs does not increase revenue, and your non-programmer producers here at CCP have not a clue, im willing to wager about software development. Management experience != Programming experience (Yes, I am a programmer.) I have had to deal with people that have not the FIRST CLUE about how to write an application, but would rather the featureset be something to brag about. What they don not understand is that if the features are buggy as hell, what good is it? I am also willing to wager that if CCP spent some time going over the 'known bugs list' and actually FIXING them, they would not spend so much on customer support. But, you see management is blinded by cashflow, because if they do not generate cashflow, they will hire someone to do it. Self preservation... a reality in the software business. So, while the OP has some inaccurate timeline info, he is mostly right about bugs. And yes, IMO they did not do anyone, or themselves a favor by implementing this patch as soon as they did. It got poorly tested, mainly because you cannot expect people to do it, while paying (selfish users, for one) and because communication between developers and testers is virtually nonexistent. I have yet to ever, ever, ever hear anything about any of the bugs I ever reported, most of which still exist to this day, over a year later. I would not go as far as calling it greed, but it is ****ed close to it. Cornhole, Inc. - Cornholeing eve one system at a time. Member, The Sudden Death Squad [TSDS]
Solstice Day	Posted - 2006.11.30 00:04:00 - [27] Originally by: Locke DieDrake Originally by: Solstice Day Originally by: Xaroth Brook How about.. you bugreport whatever bug you find rather than complain about it? I've noticed bugs getting fixed, you should have seen SISI when they were first testing kali.. you couldn't even target something without your complete interface messing up... the fact it doesn't now, means THEY FIXED A BUG! oh, and Ultima Online and Ragnarok Online started the "MMO Revolution".. EQ came later. How about this... They take my monthy fee combined with yours and hire professionals to TEST their software BEFORE dumping it on the public. If they want me to be a beta tester and report bugs, then they can hire me and pay me because that's an OCCUPATION. I'm here to be entertained, not work. HAHA. ooh. Ok, got my breath now. Lets start over. Hi, welcome to the internet and online gaming. Where things don't work the way you think they should. Where reality often comes with a broken nose because you couldn't bother to look up before walking into and where people like you are the toys we play with when we can't get home and log on. Seriously, you are a twit. You don't have any clue how the real world works, much less how complex server/client software works. Nor the fact that this is probably one of the LEAST buggy expansions to an MMO I've ever seen. And unlike you, I've actually been around the block a few times. I know how things work, and I'm still suprised by people like you on occasion. They always manage to invent a better fool... The fact that this is one of the 'least buggy expansions' you've seen justifies releasing buggy code? Sorry... if Ford or Toyota build a car that broke down every 30 minutes, they'd have a recall. That's why they thorougly test their products. I know full well how the real world works because I've been in it a good long while. Let me tell you how it works: The current philosophy is that there's a limited number of MMO gamers out there and the only way they can keep customers and draw in new ones is to keep spitting out expansion after expansion after expansion which keeps their corporate logo in the public eye. I point to EQ1, EQ2, DAOC and a host of others as example. When you're so concerned with rushing to introduce new content, quality has to suffer. The deadline to get it published is set and be ****ed what the devs say about bugs, release now and let our customers tells us about them. We need publicity! Customer satisfaction starts with making a quality product... period. You people can sit here and suck up to CCP all you like. Fact is, this expansion, and every expansion I've seen from ANY MMO I've played was rushed out the door to generate more revenue or more publicity. I know personally what devs go through and I know they don't like releasing buggy code. It's a reflection on their work and life. But, I also know that they don't make the decision when the when the expansion is released. That comes from those managing the purse strings. Flame me all you want. You are a beta tester and you pay to be one.
Gone'Postal Minmatar LuthorCorp Combat Division	Posted - 2006.11.30 00:14:00 - [28] Personal View The biggest issues with MMO's is that there are more players then testers, by this I mean if a tester can think of 50 ways to stop something users can find 100 ways to make it happen, (take the insta issue) Take the "I'm still playing Beta" I'd have to agree, there are more bugs in EvE then Starship troopers (Good movie btw) and yes CCP use the player base to find and kill these... with the "submit a bug report tool".. Now do I submit bugs Hell no! not my job, I pay to play not fix there foul ups but others do it's the freedom of choice of the player. ALL software house's do the "**** the bugs, Full revenue ahead" new content = more players = More Buck's. TBH most players are either blind or overlook the bugs because there are good points, and there are a LOT of good points in EvE. The server being one of them. I'm afraid the only games I was playing in the 80's was either Kisschase in the school yard or Turrcan on the Amiga A600 HD (20MB HDD 4TW) and EvE is my 1st MMO and TBH if I quit I'll quit when Star trek Online comes out (If it's as good as it looks/sounds) so I don't know the history of the MMO's as a area of gaming, so I can't comment. Now every game has it's Fanboys (Found by there lack of content in there posts but willing to flame the OP to hell and back if they say something that either needs an IQ of more then 6 or some human brain runtime) and every game has it's "I hate this game but heh I'm still playing" Never really understood there logic but heh. But: If everygame was to be released when it was 100% bug proof the gaming area would be dead.. IIRC Super mario 64 had 1 bug.. (You hear that Sony Fanboys ) I can even get Snake to crash on my old Nokia3310 mobile. ANY software will have bugs, add to that it's running on software (with bugs) on a lump of hardware controled by software (with bugs). I think i've gone off topic here a few times but heh.. I think you get the idea. There will always be companys that release unfinished stuff because of the RL $$$ that goes with that release and some times the reason it's released is because it needs the playerbase to help "test" it and remove any that the programmers missed, Do I agree with this No... but I live with it as there are more good points then the bad for this game. PS I don't play any game from EA for these reasons. Sorry for the long post and i'm as sleepy as hell so forgive spelling/grammer errors. The man without a face... The company without a clue.


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