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Tikktokk Tokkzikk
Soteriophobia The Periphery
222
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Posted - 2015.07.10 17:57:52 -
[1] - Quote
I compared the damage application for the different long range missiles: T1 light missiles apply 80% of their damage to frigates. T1 heavy missiles apply 65% of their damage to cruiser. T1 cruise missiles easily apply 100% of their damage to battleships. T1 cruise missiles apply 66% of their damage to combat battlecruisers. As you can see, cruise missiles have the best application, followed by light missiles, followed by heavy missiles with the worst application. In fact, heavy missiles apply worse to its own ship class than cruise missiles apply to a ship class below it. This is why heavy missiles are bad.
Solution: Increase all heavy missiles' explosion velocity by 50% and reduce their explosion radius by 16.5%. This will put heavy missile application right between light missiles (worst application) and cruise missiles (best application).
Here's some examples comparing new and old numbers: T1 heavy missiles now apply 97% instead of 65% to cruisers. T1 heavy missiles now apply 54% instead of 36% to cruisers with an afterburner. T1 heavy missiles now apply 100% instead of 68% to 1x webbed cruisers with an afterburner. T1 heavy missiles now apply 100% instead of 84% to 1x webbed, 1x target painted cruisers with an afterburner. T1 heavy missiles now apply 67% instead of 45% to 1x target painted cruisers with an afterburner. T1 heavy missiles now apply 56% instead of 38% to destroyers. T1 heavy missiles now apply 74% instead of 61% to 1x webbed destroyers. T1 heavy missiles now apply 100% instead of 85% to 1x webbed, 1x target painted destroyers. Precision heavy missiles now apply 36% instead of 24% to frigates. Precision heavy missiles now apply 47% instead of 39% to 1x webbed frigates. Precision heavy missiles now apply 47% instead of 39% to 2x webbed frigates. Precision heavy missiles now apply 45% instead of 30% to 1x target painted frigates. Precision heavy missiles now apply 51% instead of 34% to 2x target painted frigates. Precision heavy missiles now apply 65% instead of 54% to 1x webbed, 1x target painted frigates. Precision heavy missiles now apply 77% instead of 65% to 2x webbed, 2x target painted frigates. Precision heavy missiles now apply 20% instead of 14% to frigates with an afterburner. Precision heavy missiles now apply 38% instead of 25% to 1x webbed frigates with an afterburner. Precision heavy missiles now apply 47% instead of 39% to 2x webbed frigates with an afterburner. Precision heavy missiles now apply 25% instead of 17% to 1x target painted frigates with an afterburner. Precision heavy missiles now apply 28% instead of 19% to 2x target painted frigates with an afterburner. Precision heavy missiles now apply 47% instead of 32% to 1x webbed, 1x target painted frigates with an afterburner. Precision heavy missiles now apply 77% instead of 56% to 2x webbed, 2x target painted frigates with an afterburner.
Here's a pretty graph! Heavy missile launchers are now better than rapid light missile launchers against cruisers.
Numbers are based on unbonused missiles with max skills against the average signature radius and velocity for T1 ships with max skills excluding logistics and exploration ships: 37m and 456m/s for frigates, 65m and 315m/s for destroyers, 127m and 277m/s for cruisers, 280m and 189m/s for combat battlecruisers, and 439m and 135m/s for battleships. Modules are T2 and propulsion modules are based on the maximum velocity bonus and signature radius bonus only. |
Andy Koraka
Blackwater USA Inc. Pandemic Legion
57
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Posted - 2015.07.10 19:14:02 -
[2] - Quote
It's almost like they just gave us a new class of modules which improve the damage application stats for missiles. |
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
1864
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Posted - 2015.07.10 19:20:55 -
[3] - Quote
Andy Koraka wrote:It's almost like they just gave us a new class of modules which improve the damage application stats for missiles. They did, and they'll help, but there should still be some semblance of balance in the base stats of missiles when considering damage application to their own class.
Relatively Notorious By Association
My Many Misadventures
Inaugural C&P Thunderdome Champion
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Tikktokk Tokkzikk
Soteriophobia The Periphery
224
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Posted - 2015.07.10 19:25:11 -
[4] - Quote
Andy Koraka wrote:It's almost like they just gave us a new class of modules which improve the damage application stats for missiles.
Missile Guidance Computers doesn't change the underlying problem of heavy missiles. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1628
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Posted - 2015.07.10 19:30:09 -
[5] - Quote
Andy Koraka wrote:It's almost like they just gave us a new class of modules which improve the damage application stats for missiles.
Yeah and they were ALMOST as good as the gang assist, easier to fit target painter.
Almost.
And my stacked rigs are ALMOST as good as they used to be. |
Arla Sarain
541
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Posted - 2015.07.10 19:30:10 -
[6] - Quote
Andy Koraka wrote:It's almost like they just gave us a new class of modules which improve the damage application stats for missiles. It's almost like slots are not in abundance. |
Muon Farstrider
Partial Safety
0
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Posted - 2015.07.10 19:30:29 -
[7] - Quote
Tikktokk Tokkzikk wrote:Andy Koraka wrote:It's almost like they just gave us a new class of modules which improve the damage application stats for missiles. Missile Guidance Computers doesn't change the underlying problem of heavy missiles.
And not to mention that it's not like new slots to fit those application modules just sprung up out of the ground when they were released. And it's still not balanced if heavy missiles need to fit more of those modules than other types of missiles do. |
Iain Cariaba
1625
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Posted - 2015.07.10 19:54:23 -
[8] - Quote
Oh, if only target painters any effect at all on missiles...
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
Will troll for a t-shirt.
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Tabyll Altol
Mmmmmh thats nice
96
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Posted - 2015.07.10 20:07:23 -
[9] - Quote
Tikktokk Tokkzikk wrote:I compared the damage application for the different long range missiles: T1 light missiles apply 80% of their damage to frigates. T1 heavy missiles apply 65% of their damage to cruiser. T1 cruise missiles easily apply 100% of their damage to battleships. T1 cruise missiles apply 66% of their damage to combat battlecruisers. As you can see, cruise missiles have the best application, followed by light missiles, followed by heavy missiles with the worst application. In fact, heavy missiles apply worse to its own ship class than cruise missiles apply to a ship class below it. This is why heavy missiles are bad. Solution:Increase all heavy missiles' explosion velocity by 50% and reduce their explosion radius by 16.5%. This will put heavy missile application right between light missiles (worst application) and cruise missiles (best application). Here's some examples comparing new and old numbers: T1 heavy missiles now apply 97% instead of 65% to cruisers. T1 heavy missiles now apply 54% instead of 36% to cruisers with an afterburner. T1 heavy missiles now apply 100% instead of 68% to 1x webbed cruisers with an afterburner. T1 heavy missiles now apply 100% instead of 84% to 1x webbed, 1x target painted cruisers with an afterburner. T1 heavy missiles now apply 67% instead of 45% to 1x target painted cruisers with an afterburner. T1 heavy missiles now apply 56% instead of 38% to destroyers. T1 heavy missiles now apply 74% instead of 61% to 1x webbed destroyers. T1 heavy missiles now apply 100% instead of 85% to 1x webbed, 1x target painted destroyers. Precision heavy missiles now apply 36% instead of 24% to frigates. Precision heavy missiles now apply 47% instead of 39% to 1x webbed frigates. Precision heavy missiles now apply 47% instead of 39% to 2x webbed frigates. Precision heavy missiles now apply 45% instead of 30% to 1x target painted frigates. Precision heavy missiles now apply 51% instead of 34% to 2x target painted frigates. Precision heavy missiles now apply 65% instead of 54% to 1x webbed, 1x target painted frigates. Precision heavy missiles now apply 77% instead of 65% to 2x webbed, 2x target painted frigates. Precision heavy missiles now apply 20% instead of 14% to frigates with an afterburner. Precision heavy missiles now apply 38% instead of 25% to 1x webbed frigates with an afterburner. Precision heavy missiles now apply 47% instead of 39% to 2x webbed frigates with an afterburner. Precision heavy missiles now apply 25% instead of 17% to 1x target painted frigates with an afterburner. Precision heavy missiles now apply 28% instead of 19% to 2x target painted frigates with an afterburner. Precision heavy missiles now apply 47% instead of 32% to 1x webbed, 1x target painted frigates with an afterburner. Precision heavy missiles now apply 77% instead of 56% to 2x webbed, 2x target painted frigates with an afterburner. Here's a pretty graph!Heavy missile launchers are now better than rapid light missile launchers against cruisers. Numbers are based on unbonused missiles with max skills against the average signature radius and velocity for T1 ships with max skills excluding logistics and exploration ships: 37m and 456m/s for frigates, 65m and 315m/s for destroyers, 127m and 277m/s for cruisers, 280m and 189m/s for combat battlecruisers, and 439m and 135m/s for battleships. Modules are T2 and propulsion modules are based on the maximum velocity bonus and signature radius bonus only.
They just got buffed don-Št get greedy.
-1 |
Tikktokk Tokkzikk
Soteriophobia The Periphery
225
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Posted - 2015.07.10 20:10:39 -
[10] - Quote
Tabyll Altol wrote:[quote=Tikktokk Tokkzikk]They just got buffed don-Št get greedy.
-1 Made this thread to show why 5% damage doesn't matter. |
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Master Sergeant MacRobert
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
207
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Posted - 2015.07.10 20:25:38 -
[11] - Quote
Tabyll Altol wrote:Tikktokk Tokkzikk wrote:... common sense ... . They just got buffed don-Št get greedy. -1
Fail rebalance is still fail. Failed argument.
+1 to Tikktokk ... coz he is "smarter than the average bear"
"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
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Azhu
Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class
19
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Posted - 2015.07.10 20:45:21 -
[12] - Quote
+1 |
JAF Anders
Quantum Cats Syndicate Spaceship Bebop
325
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Posted - 2015.07.10 21:38:50 -
[13] - Quote
Greatly appreciating the thought that goes into the clever solution to a muddy yet obvious problem. +1
The pursuit of excellence and stabbed plexing alts.
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Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
825
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Posted - 2015.07.10 21:58:43 -
[14] - Quote
+1
Now lets wait another 2 years and 50 forum threads until they get the next micro balance pass.
RATE LIKE SUBSCRIBE
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2513
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Posted - 2015.07.10 22:29:16 -
[15] - Quote
Hey look, someone who actually understands math. You should hire this man, CCP!
Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom
Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm
The Succubus looks meaner
But the Revenant cleaner
Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
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Mayrin Hawke
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
18
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Posted - 2015.07.10 22:43:13 -
[16] - Quote
Would sure be nice if RLMLs and HMLs had reasonable tradeoffs against cruisers instead of RLMLs completely outclassing them for small-scale fights. BCs aren't numerous enough to justify bringing HMLs to any gang.
+1 |
HippoWhisperer
Anime Masters Verge of Collapse
5
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Posted - 2015.07.10 23:10:54 -
[17] - Quote
+1
sure would be nice for hmls to not suck again |
Amera Khan
Southern Cross Incorporated Flying Dangerous
41
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Posted - 2015.07.10 23:52:36 -
[18] - Quote
+1 |
elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
734
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Posted - 2015.07.10 23:53:24 -
[19] - Quote
Tikktokk Tokkzikk wrote:..T1 heavy missiles apply 6,5% of their damage to cruiser..
I have no objections and corrected a tiny typo in your list, you're welcome.
Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
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Caleb Seremshur
Gladiators of Rage RAZOR Alliance
574
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Posted - 2015.07.11 00:25:46 -
[20] - Quote
Arla Sarain wrote:Andy Koraka wrote:It's almost like they just gave us a new class of modules which improve the damage application stats for missiles. It's almost like slots are not in abundance.
Speaking of which I'd really like it if the cerb exchanges a low to a mid. That would make the ship much better.
Veteran and solo/small gang PVP advocate.
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Jenshae Chiroptera
1832
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Posted - 2015.07.11 01:04:56 -
[21] - Quote
Reddit, form Voltron!
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
.
High Sec needs a stepping stone to other spaces, where they can grow
Fozzie SOV is treating a symptom.
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Mario Putzo
1499
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Posted - 2015.07.11 01:14:35 -
[22] - Quote
Heck even reverting the +12% increase to HM Explosion Radius would be a good start...and better than a 5% Flat Damage buff.
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
29
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Posted - 2015.07.11 02:59:56 -
[23] - Quote
Tikktokk Tokkzikk wrote:I compared the damage application for the different long range missiles: T1 light missiles apply 80% of their damage to frigates. T1 heavy missiles apply 65% of their damage to cruiser. T1 cruise missiles easily apply 100% of their damage to battleships. T1 cruise missiles apply 66% of their damage to combat battlecruisers. As you can see, cruise missiles have the best application, followed by light missiles, followed by heavy missiles with the worst application. In fact, heavy missiles apply worse to its own ship class than cruise missiles apply to a ship class below it. This is why heavy missiles are bad. Solution:Increase all heavy missiles' explosion velocity by 50% and reduce their explosion radius by 16.5%. This will put heavy missile application right between light missiles (worst application) and cruise missiles (best application). Here's some examples comparing new and old numbers: T1 heavy missiles now apply 97% instead of 65% to cruisers. T1 heavy missiles now apply 54% instead of 36% to cruisers with an afterburner. T1 heavy missiles now apply 100% instead of 68% to 1x webbed cruisers with an afterburner. T1 heavy missiles now apply 100% instead of 84% to 1x webbed, 1x target painted cruisers with an afterburner. T1 heavy missiles now apply 67% instead of 45% to 1x target painted cruisers with an afterburner. T1 heavy missiles now apply 56% instead of 38% to destroyers. T1 heavy missiles now apply 74% instead of 61% to 1x webbed destroyers. T1 heavy missiles now apply 100% instead of 85% to 1x webbed, 1x target painted destroyers. Precision heavy missiles now apply 36% instead of 24% to frigates. Precision heavy missiles now apply 47% instead of 39% to 1x webbed frigates. Precision heavy missiles now apply 47% instead of 39% to 2x webbed frigates. Precision heavy missiles now apply 45% instead of 30% to 1x target painted frigates. Precision heavy missiles now apply 51% instead of 34% to 2x target painted frigates. Precision heavy missiles now apply 65% instead of 54% to 1x webbed, 1x target painted frigates. Precision heavy missiles now apply 77% instead of 65% to 2x webbed, 2x target painted frigates. Precision heavy missiles now apply 20% instead of 14% to frigates with an afterburner. Precision heavy missiles now apply 38% instead of 25% to 1x webbed frigates with an afterburner. Precision heavy missiles now apply 47% instead of 39% to 2x webbed frigates with an afterburner. Precision heavy missiles now apply 25% instead of 17% to 1x target painted frigates with an afterburner. Precision heavy missiles now apply 28% instead of 19% to 2x target painted frigates with an afterburner. Precision heavy missiles now apply 47% instead of 32% to 1x webbed, 1x target painted frigates with an afterburner. Precision heavy missiles now apply 77% instead of 56% to 2x webbed, 2x target painted frigates with an afterburner. Here's a pretty graph!Heavy missile launchers are now better than rapid light missile launchers against cruisers. Numbers are based on unbonused missiles with max skills against the average signature radius and velocity for T1 ships with max skills excluding logistics and exploration ships: 37m and 456m/s for frigates, 65m and 315m/s for destroyers, 127m and 277m/s for cruisers, 280m and 189m/s for combat battlecruisers, and 439m and 135m/s for battleships. Modules are T2 and propulsion modules are based on the maximum velocity bonus and signature radius bonus only.
That's some serious number crunching ability you have there, and I'm sure some developers in CCP have the same ability. Which means they are well aware of bad Heavy Missile Launcher suck as compared to the other launchers and are content on keeping them this way. Afterall when HML were OP, CML sucked and everyone opted to use torps for both PVE & PVP. So all CCP did was reverse their roles to keep the status quo. Even CCP is well aware that If every other missile launcher was as good as cruisers are now, you'll be seeing nothing but missiles flying all over the place in eve.
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Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
690
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Posted - 2015.07.11 04:33:12 -
[24] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:Arla Sarain wrote:Andy Koraka wrote:It's almost like they just gave us a new class of modules which improve the damage application stats for missiles. It's almost like slots are not in abundance. Speaking of which I'd really like it if the cerb exchanges a low to a mid. That would make the ship much better.
That lost its window of opportunity. When the rapid bonus was deemed too good at initial release ccp oddly enough adjusted that with a quickness. Apparently ccp back then had staff who saw an issue right away and said what did we change? Oh yeah....maybe we should adjust that a little.
Unlike our friend Mr. Ishtar. Who keeps questionable bonuses...and gets "nerfed" by getting +1 low slot for one less mid. More DDA for damage or more armour tank....hell of a "nerf". |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
853
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Posted - 2015.07.11 06:00:14 -
[25] - Quote
+1
Truth be told, even before the nerfs, the only thing HMs had going for them was range. I had though that was the only issue, but then CCP beat them with the nerf bat like the goofy kid on the playground...
Though, I think if they buff the application, they'll likely nerf something else, like more range, or knock their damage back down.... |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2515
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Posted - 2015.07.11 07:35:41 -
[26] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:+1
Truth be told, even before the nerfs, the only thing HMs had going for them was range. I had though that was the only issue, but then CCP beat them with the nerf bat like the goofy kid on the playground...
Though, I think if they buff the application, they'll likely nerf something else, like more range, or knock their damage back down.... CCP thought heavy missiles were OP because they forgot to take away a weapon slot on the Drake when they decided to give it one more mid/low slot than the other tier 2 battlecruisers. They thought 7 weapons with 7 high slots was somehow weaker than the others which had 7 weapons with 8 high slots. Since the Amarrian tier 2 didn't have the resist bonus and it was an overpowered 5% back then, and the Myrmidon had the weak 5% rep bonus, and the tier 1 battlecruisers were stupidly underpowered, CCP assumed it was heavy missiles' fault that the Drake tanked like a battleship while almost matching offensive power with other tier 2 battlecruisers. They ignored the general irrelevance of the Cerberus, Caracal, and Sacrilege which had nothing to do with their very reasonable attributes.
Heavy Missiles were never overpowered. If Drakes had had just 6 launcher hardpoints, they could have been given a proper missile damage bonus, either 5% to all or 10% to kinetic, and everything would have been fine. Drake blobs would still have happened, but that's because hit points were too low across the board, causing tanky ships to be the best in general, and the Drake was the only tanky tier 2 battlecruiser. If the tier 1s had lower sig radius and higher agility/velocity to match their lower price, hit points, and fitting, there would never have been an issue, and people would have flown blobs of either Drakes or Prophecies. And if the resist bonuses had been 4% and the rep bonuses 10% (where they should be now), then there would have been fleets of Cyclones or Brutixes and Myrmidons, too--although pre-hit point buff, even a proper rep bonus would have been vulnerable to alpha fleets.
Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom
Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm
The Succubus looks meaner
But the Revenant cleaner
Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1633
|
Posted - 2015.07.11 08:39:57 -
[27] - Quote
HML were a bit whack back in the day, the nerf was slightly OTT, but not a killer.
What killed them, was the massive buff to all other LR medium weapons not six months later, as well as tiericides making everything faster and smaller. |
L5 gen
EVE Marshals
0
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Posted - 2015.07.11 08:53:26 -
[28] - Quote
lol its k m8, lets buff off grid boosters, snakes and garmurs too yeah? |
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
154
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Posted - 2015.07.11 09:43:32 -
[29] - Quote
+1
Reading about Wolfs Brigade and FIRST GENERAL is what got me into the game (and into Caldari).
Since then I haven't even bothered to train my heavy missile skills, go figure |
Mr Mieyli
Hedion University Amarr Empire
15
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Posted - 2015.07.11 15:10:00 -
[30] - Quote
Totally agree with the idea of this thread, however is it reasonable that only 1 web is needed to get 100% application to afterburning cruisers? All a missile fleet would need is 1 huginn to never miss or never lose any damage against targets their own size. Afterburners should be a "counter" to missiles at the cost of low max speed. I think that the application should be balanced that with no prop or with a mwd on your target you need a web or two or maybe 2 TPs to get 100% application. Rigs and application mods should reduce the amount of mid-slots needed to reach 100% application. |
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