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Sable Schroedinger
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2006.11.30 09:41:00 -
[1]
yup, totally agree. Hated the idea of warp to 0 from day one and still do. I personally believe its going to be the biggest mistake made in the game as a whole for quite a while and will only exacerbate the problems with hub systems. Players as a whole will blame the contracts system ū but in reality that is only because they donĘt like the idea of losing access to a galaxy wide market system, not because of any well thought out reasoning. Faster travel just means people think less about travelling 20 jumps for something, so hubs will get worse. --------------------------------------------
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Sable Schroedinger
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2006.11.30 11:38:00 -
[2]
Quote: And if they took away warp to 0km and no insta, who the **** would bother moving 20 freighters 60+ jumps through 0.0
Bingo!!!
And that is the point (well, one of them) right there. The ability to move a freighter that many jumps in the first place is a problem to the over all balance of eve. Doing it in 0.0 is a boarder line anathma
Welcome to the reason for Hub systems and all the lag they create --------------------------------------------
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Sable Schroedinger
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2006.11.30 12:05:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Miya Kurosawa Why can't people just accept this? This change has been implemented and it's here to stay, but not to the point that it's unfair. As already mentioned, there have been improvements to warp bubbles and reduction in warp stab capability to compensate for interdiction scenarios.
That being said, why can't people just adapt and be men for once? Hell, if you spent as much time making the proper set-ups for your ships as you did whining in the forums, you'd probably be learning to live with Warp to 0 right now.
Enough said.
because, as someone has previously posted but you obviously skipped that part and jumped straight to posting, this isn't all about combat. --------------------------------------------
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Sable Schroedinger
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2006.11.30 12:10:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Sable Schroedinger on 30/11/2006 12:11:46
Originally by: Kaylana Syi
Shut the heck up man...
Warp to 0 is the easiest, most efficient way to destroy a worthelss isk and time sink ( selling and creation of bms ) that harms the quality of life.
EVE isn't about a gank being around ever friggin gate. There is a lot of empty space that should be flourishing. Warp to 0 is a step in the right direction to getting these areas flourishing faster. It makes the game much more accessible to newer players. New players don't have to LEARN shoddy game mechanics ( instas ) that creates lag just to move around.
If you got issues with it then you are obviously not looking at the new game mechanics to combat this new feature, like mobile large bubbles. If you are crying about how low sec gate piracy is getting hurt, then I kindly point you into the direction of the scanner... and low sec mission runners. There the piwats might actually be just that... piwats... and not 2mil SP raven gate campers to exploit ship stats, like slow aligning industrials and crap sentry damage.
Before you go trolling someone and putting words in their mouth, may I suggest you actually read their posts to find out what they are actually talking about? James has mentioned none of the above and the fact that it appears you can only concieve of this tiny part of the game makes you ill equiped to contest the point with him. --------------------------------------------
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Sable Schroedinger
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2006.11.30 12:40:00 -
[5]
Quote: Think of the big picture people. Warp to 0 dents pvp somewhat. No one is arguing with that. Warp to 15 could have dangerously paralysed the Eve economy.
its the big picture we're thinking about. Economies *require* travel times to function and create markets, therefore removing it harms the economy drastically. --------------------------------------------
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Sable Schroedinger
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2006.11.30 13:13:00 -
[6]
Originally by: LC Sulla
Wealth has increased in the world today as a result of decreased travel times. Currencies and stocks are traded in todays marketplace virtually at the click of a button. If you increase tavel times AND increase the risk involved you will get a fragmentation of the marketplace in EVE. This would lead to inflation within EVE. If you want localised economies then be prepared for serious decreases to your wealth and serious increases to the time needed to make the ISK to buy your next pvp ship. If there is less overall travel then pvp'ers are going to be very bored indeed.
In the real world today companies are looking to decrease travel times and costs for movement of their goods. Not the other way around. Are you really advocating that the Eve economy should move counter to standard economic beliefs and practices. Increasing risk and travel times of good destroys new markets not creates them. Where did you learn economics?
At Both the Universities of Birmingham and Leeds.
Just because something is cheaper or more efficient, does not make it a better game mechanic. You're focusing on one aspect, not the entire picture here. You need to work into your economic model aspects such as (in RL terms) traffic congestion, town planning and other infrastructure issues but stretch them out to a gaming environment. A traffic jam at your out of town shopping centre (extremely common place and featured into the planning permission of building these things) is not likely to crash your country, but it may just bring down TQ. --------------------------------------------
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Sable Schroedinger
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2006.11.30 14:35:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Paladineguru so basically after three pages you got 2-4 people going
WAAAa WWAAAAAAA we cant kill anything cause our brains are slow WAAAAAAAAAH
the other sixty are either part of the omg ur an idiot and it changes nothing, or the suck it up and adapt crowd
its here , most wanted it, it most likely wont get changed back for lack of a better solution for all of us that doesnt include yet more must have skills or mods,
its already in and the devs have better things to do than listen to a SMALL minority whine because they cant figure out how to camp the other side of a gate.
nice to know you actually read the thread before posting --------------------------------------------
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Sable Schroedinger
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2006.11.30 15:06:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Paladineguru Edited by: Paladineguru on 30/11/2006 15:00:56 Edited by: Paladineguru on 30/11/2006 15:00:13 Actually I did sable
and then i promptly felt better knowing that WTZ would stay forever JUST because jericho had taken to beating this dead horse
course yall are suckers for failing side of an argument because it provides opportunity to try to prove your some kind of intellectual giant
Remember the freespace arguement-- hows that working out since ccp put in sovereignty
Oddly enough, most of the people I've spoken to in JF like WTZ. I'm in a minority within the corp for disliking it.
As for having read the thread, by the conclusions you've drawn its blatantly obvious that you haven't and no amount of cheap and bitter freespace jibes are going to cover for that.
Oddly enough, most of the people I've spoken to in JF like WTZ. I'm in a minority within the corp for disliking it.
As for having read the thread, by the conclusions you've drawn its blatantly obvious that you haven't and no amount of cheap and bitter freespace jibes are going to cover for that.
If you want to stop us sounding "oh so intellectual", grow some stones, read discussions placed before you and comment on their merit or flaws as you see them in a considered fashion. Spitting out the first inane jibe that leaps to mind is just going to make you look daft, our intension or not. --------------------------------------------
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Sable Schroedinger
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2006.11.30 15:08:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Becham I wonder if this debate went on when railroads were being built about how faster travel times were going to destroy markets and make it too hard for bandits to steal from merchants and travelers.
hehe I doubt it, but then they were trying to make a profitable and safe environment for their people. Not a computer game --------------------------------------------
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Sable Schroedinger
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2006.11.30 15:32:00 -
[10]
seriously guys. Please for the love of god keep up with the tone of this thread.
ITS NOT ABOUT COMBAT!!!! --------------------------------------------
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Sable Schroedinger
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2006.11.30 15:39:00 -
[11]
Quote: @sable: sry - but not talking about the effects of WTZ in combat - is like not talking about the effects of WTZ in tradeing - both are parts of the game and both are effected by this game design.
agreed
Just getting tired of people trying to rubbish the discussion by saying we only don't like it cos we can't gank people anymore
Some people have put a lot of time and thought into this thread and its kinda insulting when its summed up in such a way - especially when its not even been discussed in any real detail cos the answer is so ruddy obvious
anyway, thanks for the mood breaker, was needed --------------------------------------------
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Sable Schroedinger
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2006.11.30 15:47:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Fren Mallow At least for mentioning: my post ist NOT about combat vs WTZ!!
Ok..
What do we have here:
- people who are afraid of freighters with instas for gates/stations.. hm.. I think most of those pilots allready used instas, so their point for markets, seen from a supplier point of view is useless
- influence on merchant-competition on markets for goods (pvp:trade).. hm.. I had made me instas for most of the routes.. station/gate, forth and back.. so, I don't think that there will be any damage from this side (hell, I even mapped all essence instas for station/gate and stations for selling! :D)
- tradehubs for selling/buying stuff at most cmopetitive prices with the whole pallette of items.. hm.. they're there since the first day.. A year ago Jita allready was THE hub.. can't think of anything other.. I, by myself, don't fly there anymore, because of the lagg :p
sumarizing the above:
I looked at the logg in statistics for the last days.. I bet, we'll have more than 30.000 users online within a time frame of two months on a daily basis. What do you think do these people all got to!?
Low sec? 0.0? sure...
You have a community with players, whoe's skills are saturating the economy. A year before I couldn't fly a iteron, a barge and a covert ops and compete in producing, refining and trading.. but nowadays, that's not a problem.. and in a years distance I can do even more, maybe a frigher, who knows.. The point is, by time you get more people who can do a lot more things by themselfes (mostly importeant: IN EMPIRE).
This is, what drives down freelancer-competition in the high sec systems. And by that I mean: Trade-PVP, Production-PVP, aso..
0.0 also got/has/will get this problem with the whole pos-ware-thing, don't knwo what they'll do about it.. The only place, where savety won't be at the same level ist low sec.. And for that one needs a corp and can't solo anymore that easy.
My conclusion to all this: This is a thread of solo-players, who are upset about the direction this game ist taking with no insight WHAT is causing this direction.
Cheers
PS: Saturation, crusting, reinforcing.. all that play's into this.. I allways thought, what would happen, if you only had a restricted count.. say maybee 20.000.000 .. skillpoints avaible, for putting your skills into? And by learning new skills, the least used skills would vanish?! Hm.. what do you think, would this have for an impact on the game? I would say specialisation.. hehe.. real specialisation) And real teamwork..
PPS: another thing about exploration, learning new things.. I think humans (at least that most of them are like that) wan't to explore and don't grind. Eve has it's social interaction as a very strong point.. and long time motivation is achieved by better items and this social interaction. What makes me sad on this is, that somewhen I'll havn't seen all of it, but enough, so the game itself gets uninteresting.. except ccp hammers out new content on a yearly basis :D
*huh.. long post.. sorry for this ;)*
------------------------------ The above represents not the speech of my corp.
this is all well and good assuming you haven't been of the opinion that there have been problems with travel times for a while now... roughly for as long as instas have existed. Important thing to remember here, just because WTZ mirrors a factor that existed with Instas doesn't mean its negates the argument. Only that the argument existed when instas were a factor. Not only that, but the argument has been undeniably proven with the state of the eve verse markets, Jita in particular
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Sable Schroedinger
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2006.11.30 16:29:00 -
[13]
*sighs*
because, 'dictors at gates are used to catch people coming through a gate not going through. When you jump through a gate you arrive outside of the 15km radius of the gate. Ergo, not in the 15km bubble. Therefore you need a 'dictor. --------------------------------------------
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Sable Schroedinger
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2006.12.01 09:15:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Sable Schroedinger on 01/12/2006 09:16:17 What the hell happened to the reasoned and well considered thread that began here?!!!
If you think the answer either side is easy, then you're missing the point!! There is a very deep social-economic point being made here about WTZ. Camps and gates aren't really an issue. Its been handled already, let it go! If you can't get your head around the bigger picture here, please read the entire thread. If you still don't get it, ask a well reasoned question. Heckling from the peanut gallery is just making you look silly
edit for spelling --------------------------------------------
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Sable Schroedinger
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2006.12.01 16:14:00 -
[15]
in order for the game world to contain everyone, it needs to be able to contain roles for them all to choose as they will. If there are just 1 or 2 hubs, the number of people that can perform roles is drastically reduced. Seriously, this is a VERY big issue and not one that is easily sumed up, and is way beyond "its better for me because I don't have to do X". This is about everyone that plays the game.
p.s. Just as a side note, I just realised, due to WTZ, speed bonus' on indys and other slow moving/aligning ships are now purely a penalty and not a bonus!!!! --------------------------------------------
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Sable Schroedinger
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2006.12.01 16:29:00 -
[16]
Quote: Quote: Originally by: Sable Schroedinger p.s. Just as a side note, I just realised, due to WTZ, speed bonus' on indys and other slow moving/aligning ships are now purely a penalty and not a bonus!!!! Laughing
Think of it this way, travelling in warp between two points is a warp speed issue, there the efficiency of your warp engines count. Travelling under impulse/ordinary engines between two points is an impulse speed issue, there the efficiency of your normal engines counts.
forgive me for being dim, but eh?!! --------------------------------------------
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