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Continuation of the Discussion on the destroyed slave freighter

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Kontrahage Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance 50	Posted - 2015.07.13 11:22:38 - [1] - Quote As this discussion has derailed the OP by his holyness, Lord Vaari, I encourage all participating parties to continue in this new thread. To all those new to it, here a short summary: Yesterday a Phoebe Freeport Republic fleet fileding among others three carriers and a freighter attacked sov structures in providence, asked for combat in various channels and were subsequently destroyed. As it tunred out the freighter held 1000 slaves, none of which survived. Now it has been suggested that CVA is responsible for those deaths as they should have investigated before opening fire or at least spare the freighter and hold it until the main battler was over. Others have argued that the fault lies with PFR for bringing these people to a battle and that CVA cannnot be expected to hold their fire under attack to closer investigate a curiosity met on the field before engaging in defence of their system. To these points I will hold my tongue as I am not authorised to speak for CVA or IG. However I wish to raise the question how PFR aquired those slaves. The true scandal is not this regrettable incident but the fact than unqualified entities, yes, everybody with some isk can go and buy people for their own, selfish purposes it seems.
Utari Onzo Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 390	Posted - 2015.07.13 11:40:55 - [2] - Quote The fault lies fully and soley with PFR. PFR did wilfully, and knowingly, take a fleet to Providence with said freighter in tow. The PFR commander accessed a fluid router, designated for Diplomatic Communications only and not some 'public channel, demanding a fight. That is not how you get one and is undiplomatic, rude and arrogant behaviour and having other members of the fleet join said channel to goad CVA into fighting further reinforces this. When PFR forces didn't get their fight, they deliberately attacked Providence owned infrastructure, placing crews of thise structures at risk of great harm and forcing a defence force to be mustered. At no point from what I can assertain dod PFR give any legitimate reason for the freighter to be present to CVA in the correct channels. At no point did they make overtures in the correct channel in a respectful manner to hand over the slaves or even declare they were carrying them so that the defence force commander could be made aware. The Providence forces attacked, and destroyed, the members of the hostile fleet. At no point did they owe those hostiles any quarter to state their purpose when this was a direct attack on their infrastructure. One doesn't ask kindly the purpose of a fleet when its shooting your home as other bandits are burning your yard (re:- Providence's defensive war against Northern Coalition) PFR behaved undiplomatically, arrogantly, disrespectfully and at no time did they give any fair warning, or use proper protocal in communicating with CVA any intentions or declarations. CVA enforced their border control rules against an openly hostile force, who brought along a freighter filled with innocents for absolutely no discernable, logical orethical reason. Based on this situation I strongly advise PFR to reprimand its fleet commander for undiplomatic behaviour. It is not Providence's responsibility to provide your pilots with 'entertainment' when they're fighting a serious defensive war for their homes. I further emplore the PFR leadership to question why said fleet commander permitted and/or intended for a freighter to enter knowingly hostile territory in a fleet that fired the first shots by attacking Providence structures, and while carrying innocent lives. Further, I strongly recommend PFR organise official and recognised diplomats to make overtures to CVA for reinstatement to the fluid router, with the express knowledge that only those official diplomats will conduct business in that channel. I recommend a full apology from PFR to CVA for the undiplomatic behaviour of that fleet and its members. Lasty, I strongly urge PFR to take trsponsibility for the unethical, and under Scripture Law, illegal action in purchasing slaves with the intent of stuffing those poor souls into a freighter and sending them off in what can only obviously be seen as their deaths by accompanying a hostile aggressor fleet. May God have mercy on your souls for the blood of those slaves that is on your hands, not CVA's. "Face the enemy as a solid wall For faith is your armor And through it, the enemy will find no breach Wrap your arms around the enemy For faith is your fire And with it, burn away his evil"
Sinjin Mokk Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly. 211	Posted - 2015.07.13 11:53:11 - [3] - Quote Kontrahage wrote: However I wish to raise the question how PFR aquired those slaves. The true scandal is not this regrettable incident but the fact than unqualified entities, yes, everybody with some isk can go and buy people for their own, selfish purposes it seems. I am also curious. Dark Amarr: Rumors!
Samira Kernher Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 1845	Posted - 2015.07.13 12:09:10 - [4] - Quote Kontrahage wrote: However I wish to raise the question how PFR aquired those slaves. The true scandal is not this regrettable incident but the fact than unqualified entities, yes, everybody with some isk can go and buy people for their own, selfish purposes it seems. It is yet another unfortunate result of the liberal interstellar free market that allows for anyone of any nationality and social or legal standing to purchase slaves in defiance of both interstellar and Amarrian slave trade laws. The SCC needs to be regulated. Trade must adhere to all interstellar and national laws. The slave trade is legally and spiritually permissible only by Amarr and Kingdom Holders and licensed slavers. These laws are established by both Amarrian and CONCORD laws, and ratified by every member state. "Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away." -- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
Silent Cyborg ISW Space Guild Phoebe Freeport Republic 11	Posted - 2015.07.13 12:10:53 - [5] - Quote Kontrahage wrote: However I wish to raise the question how PFR aquired those slaves. The true scandal is not this regrettable incident but the fact than unqualified entities, yes, everybody with some isk can go and buy people for their own, selfish purposes it seems. When a mommy save and a daddy slave love each other and have been working for me long enough I will issues them with a permit to mate. Soon after a baby slave arrives!
Utari Onzo Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 398	Posted - 2015.07.13 12:14:13 - [6] - Quote Silent Cyborg wrote: Kontrahage wrote: However I wish to raise the question how PFR aquired those slaves. The true scandal is not this regrettable incident but the fact than unqualified entities, yes, everybody with some isk can go and buy people for their own, selfish purposes it seems. When a mommy save and a daddy slave love each other and have been working for me long enough I will issues them with a permit to mate. Soon after a baby slave arrives! And then you allow your fleet commanders to send them to their deaths? Disgusting. "Face the enemy as a solid wall For faith is your armor And through it, the enemy will find no breach Wrap your arms around the enemy For faith is your fire And with it, burn away his evil"
Kontrahage Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance 54	Posted - 2015.07.13 12:16:05 - [7] - Quote Silent Cyborg wrote: Kontrahage wrote: However I wish to raise the question how PFR aquired those slaves. The true scandal is not this regrettable incident but the fact than unqualified entities, yes, everybody with some isk can go and buy people for their own, selfish purposes it seems. When a mommy save and a daddy slave love each other and have been working for me long enough I will issues them with a permit to mate. Soon after a baby slave arrives! This just goes to show why not everybody can be allowed the responsibility that is the possession and formation of slaves.
Utari Onzo Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 398	Posted - 2015.07.13 12:19:38 - [8] - Quote Samira Kernher wrote: Kontrahage wrote: However I wish to raise the question how PFR aquired those slaves. The true scandal is not this regrettable incident but the fact than unqualified entities, yes, everybody with some isk can go and buy people for their own, selfish purposes it seems. It is yet another unfortunate result of the liberal interstellar free market that allows for anyone of any nationality and social or legal standing to purchase slaves in defiance of both interstellar and Amarrian slave trade laws. The SCC needs to be regulated. Trade must adhere to all interstellar and national laws. The slave trade is legally and spiritually permissible only by Amarr and Kingdom Holders and licensed slavers. These laws are established by both Amarrian and CONCORD laws, and ratified by every member state. While I am a strong advocate for liberated markets, this is the one thing I strongly believe should be curtailed. I'm all for the free trade of goods and wares, but those slaves deserve to be kept under a Holder who will treat them as required under Scripture Law and Imperial Declarations, housed, looked after, fed and taught the Glories of God before eventual emancipation and rejoining with the other faithful. They should not be allowed to be purchased to be suffed into freighters or sacrificed by the millions by monsters like Nauplius and the PFR fleet commander and freighter pilot, or spend their lives toiling as indentured labour for unscrupulous Capsuleers and/or corporations with no hope of salvation or emancipation. "Face the enemy as a solid wall For faith is your armor And through it, the enemy will find no breach Wrap your arms around the enemy For faith is your fire And with it, burn away his evil"
Goldfinch House Rkard 99	Posted - 2015.07.13 12:22:17 - [9] - Quote We close our eyes and try to imagine what it must have been like for the thousand souls, stuck inside a hold burning in space. What were their names? Who were they, and would anyone who loved them come to know how they died? Our journey to Amarr was made inside a compartment too small for us to lie in without folding up ourselves up in a way that caused us discomfort in walking, sitting, and sleeping for days after we had come out. We wonder to ourselves if it could have been ourself in that burning hull in Provi, and no one would know or remember if we died, quietly and incapable of struggling. We feel we are in no position to have an opinion about the incident. veiled and bound my origin story (on R109)
Silent Cyborg ISW Space Guild Phoebe Freeport Republic 11	Posted - 2015.07.13 12:25:04 - [10] - Quote Utari Onzo wrote: Silent Cyborg wrote: Kontrahage wrote: However I wish to raise the question how PFR aquired those slaves. The true scandal is not this regrettable incident but the fact than unqualified entities, yes, everybody with some isk can go and buy people for their own, selfish purposes it seems. When a mommy save and a daddy slave love each other and have been working for me long enough I will issues them with a permit to mate. Soon after a baby slave arrives! And then you allow your fleet commanders to send them to their deaths? Disgusting. No not at all I tried to talk to CVA in the diplomat channel until we where banned (our alliance) from said channel and then locked out of supposed Freeport's. We then tried to knock on the door with a little ammo (the vacuum of space is unforgiving I was not going to knock the door knocker) But if CVA want to blow this out of proportion then so be it.
Silent Cyborg ISW Space Guild Phoebe Freeport Republic 11	Posted - 2015.07.13 12:27:22 - [11] - Quote Goldfinch wrote: We close our eyes and try to imagine what it must have been like for the thousand souls, stuck inside a hold burning in space. What were their names? Who were they, and would anyone who loved them come to know how they died? Our journey to Amarr was made inside a compartment too small for us to lie in without folding up ourselves up in a way that caused us discomfort in walking, sitting, and sleeping for days after we had come out. We wonder to ourselves if it could have been ourself in that burning hull in Provi, and no one would know or remember if we died, quietly and incapable of struggling. We feel we are in no position to have an opinion about the incident. Note CVA called primary the freighter not the 3 hostile carriers the blood is on CVA hands, it was the carriers that tried to save the slaves
Yon Tu-Ka Dutch East Querious Company Phoebe Freeport Republic 0	Posted - 2015.07.13 12:29:19 - [12] - Quote Quote: PFR behaved undiplomatically, arrogantly, disrespectfully and at no time did they give any fair warning, or use proper protocal in communicating with CVA any intentions or declarations. CVA enforced their border control rules against an openly hostile force, who brought along a freighter filled with innocents for absolutely no discernable, logical orethical reason. It is at this point, that I'd like to point out, that our communication attempts in your diplomatic channel with the simple, yet effective question "Where do you live" got shut down by banning all PFR members in said diplomatic channel. Since therefore there was no way to communicate with you known to us, we started raising attention by other means. OOC: But still - we completely got what we wanted, though we hoped for CVA to bring a matchup in ships that were not such a counter to us. We set out with this fleet to achieve fun for our guys (this is no RP, I know) and we mostly got what we wanted. It was clear from the undock that we would die in a ball of fire. Thank you guys, for forming :)
Utari Onzo Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 400	Posted - 2015.07.13 12:29:23 - [13] - Quote Silent Cyborg wrote: Utari Onzo wrote: Silent Cyborg wrote: Kontrahage wrote: However I wish to raise the question how PFR aquired those slaves. The true scandal is not this regrettable incident but the fact than unqualified entities, yes, everybody with some isk can go and buy people for their own, selfish purposes it seems. When a mommy save and a daddy slave love each other and have been working for me long enough I will issues them with a permit to mate. Soon after a baby slave arrives! And then you allow your fleet commanders to send them to their deaths? Disgusting. No not at all I tried to talk to CVA in the diplomat channel until we where banned (our alliance) from said channel and then locked out of supposed Freeport's. We then tried to knock on the door with a little ammo (the vacuum of space is unforgiving I was not going to knock the door knocker) But if CVA want to blow this out of proportion then so be it. You came into a diplomatic channel asking for a fight, with no prior warning and with a hostile fleet in tow. Did you even once think of bloody well warning them before you undocked or consulted with them or did you imbue a large amout of alcohol and decided to wing it? Your arrogance speaks volumnes. "Face the enemy as a solid wall For faith is your armor And through it, the enemy will find no breach Wrap your arms around the enemy For faith is your fire And with it, burn away his evil"
Yon Tu-Ka Dutch East Querious Company Phoebe Freeport Republic 0	Posted - 2015.07.13 12:31:08 - [14] - Quote Silent Cyborg wrote: Goldfinch wrote: We close our eyes and try to imagine what it must have been like for the thousand souls, stuck inside a hold burning in space. What were their names? Who were they, and would anyone who loved them come to know how they died? Our journey to Amarr was made inside a compartment too small for us to lie in without folding up ourselves up in a way that caused us discomfort in walking, sitting, and sleeping for days after we had come out. We wonder to ourselves if it could have been ourself in that burning hull in Provi, and no one would know or remember if we died, quietly and incapable of struggling. We feel we are in no position to have an opinion about the incident. Note CVA called primary the freighter not the 3 hostile carriers the blood is on CVA hands, it was the carriers that tried to save the slaves Yep, freighter died first. No attempts made to help/save/spare the unarmed freighter and to dispose of the massive hostile fleet around it first.
Utari Onzo Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 400	Posted - 2015.07.13 12:31:45 - [15] - Quote Yon Tu-Ka wrote: Quote: PFR behaved undiplomatically, arrogantly, disrespectfully and at no time did they give any fair warning, or use proper protocal in communicating with CVA any intentions or declarations. CVA enforced their border control rules against an openly hostile force, who brought along a freighter filled with innocents for absolutely no discernable, logical orethical reason. It is at this point, that I'd like to point out, that our communication attempts in your diplomatic channel with the simple, yet effective question "Where do you live" got shut down by banning all PFR members in said diplomatic channel. Since therefore there was no way to communicate with you known to us, we started raising attention by other means. OOC: But still - we completely got what we wanted, though we hoped for CVA to bring a matchup in ships that were not such a counter to us. We set out with this fleet to achieve fun for our guys (this is no RP, I know) and we mostly got what we wanted. It was clear from the undock that we would die in a ball of fire. Thank you guys, for forming :) As I stated before you turned up in a hostile fleet on their doorstep. They have no responsibility to answer your questions when you turn up with hostile intentions. Ooc: i'm glad you had fun, but next time a forewarning before yall blob up at provi might have gotten a better fight for yourselves. Also note i'm not cva and my character is merely stating his strongly held beliefs "Face the enemy as a solid wall For faith is your armor And through it, the enemy will find no breach Wrap your arms around the enemy For faith is your fire And with it, burn away his evil"
Yon Tu-Ka Dutch East Querious Company Phoebe Freeport Republic 0	Posted - 2015.07.13 12:33:46 - [16] - Quote Utari Onzo wrote: Silent Cyborg wrote: Utari Onzo wrote: Silent Cyborg wrote: Kontrahage wrote: However I wish to raise the question how PFR aquired those slaves. The true scandal is not this regrettable incident but the fact than unqualified entities, yes, everybody with some isk can go and buy people for their own, selfish purposes it seems. When a mommy save and a daddy slave love each other and have been working for me long enough I will issues them with a permit to mate. Soon after a baby slave arrives! And then you allow your fleet commanders to send them to their deaths? Disgusting. No not at all I tried to talk to CVA in the diplomat channel until we where banned (our alliance) from said channel and then locked out of supposed Freeport's. We then tried to knock on the door with a little ammo (the vacuum of space is unforgiving I was not going to knock the door knocker) But if CVA want to blow this out of proportion then so be it. You came into a diplomatic channel asking for a fight, with no prior warning and with a hostile fleet in tow. Did you even once think of bloody well warning them before you undocked or consulted with them or did you imbue a large amout of alcohol and decided to wing it? Your arrogance speaks volumnes. Well then, next time I am going to warn you that a question for a fight is about to be asked. Get a grip, we didn't even a response in the first place, but a ban of our members. You could have told us "No, we have to defend on another end of space" and we would have thought about our way. Hell, maybe even help your defense. But you choose the way of ignorance and banning. We just reacted.
Yon Tu-Ka Dutch East Querious Company Phoebe Freeport Republic 0	Posted - 2015.07.13 12:36:03 - [17] - Quote Utari Onzo wrote: Yon Tu-Ka wrote: Quote: PFR behaved undiplomatically, arrogantly, disrespectfully and at no time did they give any fair warning, or use proper protocal in communicating with CVA any intentions or declarations. CVA enforced their border control rules against an openly hostile force, who brought along a freighter filled with innocents for absolutely no discernable, logical orethical reason. It is at this point, that I'd like to point out, that our communication attempts in your diplomatic channel with the simple, yet effective question "Where do you live" got shut down by banning all PFR members in said diplomatic channel. Since therefore there was no way to communicate with you known to us, we started raising attention by other means. OOC: But still - we completely got what we wanted, though we hoped for CVA to bring a matchup in ships that were not such a counter to us. We set out with this fleet to achieve fun for our guys (this is no RP, I know) and we mostly got what we wanted. It was clear from the undock that we would die in a ball of fire. Thank you guys, for forming :) As I stated before you turned up in a hostile fleet on their doorstep. They have no responsibility to answer your questions when you turn up with hostile intentions. Ooc: i'm glad you had fun, but next time a forewarning before yall blob up at provi might have gotten a better fight for yourselves. Also note i'm not cva and my character is merely stating his strongly held beliefs OOC: Again, we did not start the shooting without reason. Short version: We tried to get found on our way to Provi. Did not happen. We entered provi and the diplo channels and got banned. We then shot station and SBU to raise attention and then died. A lot of fun was had, for real. Never though we could take 3 carriers and a freighter 30+j through null without getting catched :D
Silent Cyborg ISW Space Guild Phoebe Freeport Republic 11	Posted - 2015.07.13 12:40:50 - [18] - Quote Utari Onzo wrote: Silent Cyborg wrote: Utari Onzo wrote: Silent Cyborg wrote: Kontrahage wrote: However I wish to raise the question how PFR aquired those slaves. The true scandal is not this regrettable incident but the fact than unqualified entities, yes, everybody with some isk can go and buy people for their own, selfish purposes it seems. When a mommy save and a daddy slave love each other and have been working for me long enough I will issues them with a permit to mate. Soon after a baby slave arrives! And then you allow your fleet commanders to send them to their deaths? Disgusting. No not at all I tried to talk to CVA in the diplomat channel until we where banned (our alliance) from said channel and then locked out of supposed Freeport's. We then tried to knock on the door with a little ammo (the vacuum of space is unforgiving I was not going to knock the door knocker) But if CVA want to blow this out of proportion then so be it. You came into a diplomatic channel asking for a fight, with no prior warning and with a hostile fleet in tow. Did you even once think of bloody well warning them before you undocked or consulted with them or did you imbue a large amout of alcohol and decided to wing it? Your arrogance speaks volumnes. You sir need to get your facts straight warning was served : Channel ID: 2137543127 Channel Name: CVA-Diplo Listener: Silent Cyborg Session started: 2015.07.11 20:29:15 n++[ 2015.07.11 20:29:15 ] EVE System > Channel MOTD: Welcome to CVA-DiploCVA KOS-list - To check unknown status/file kos requests.CVA Main Site - Rules and NRDS explained so read this FAQCVA Local Checker - Local pilot checker (BETA!)Alliance Diplomats: Leo d'Green (on extended sick leave), xHjfx (Evemail if no convo response)Recruiting Coordinator: Contact Leo d'Green and xHjfxLooking to get off KOS-list? Mail ONE of the following for talks. KOS-Admins: Felton Fundenberger (EU TZ), rattlerund (US CST), Condor Amarr (AU TZ) , Agent Khanid (EU TZ) xHjfx (EU TZ - Evemail if no convo response)For TheCitadel access(intel channel) mail ALL of the following in the same mail. Read this first: http://forum.cva-eve.org/index.php?topic=3576.0Citadel Magistrates: Wildcard Trek, Max Sneak, Moebeus, Patrick Molter P-Fleet Access: TronyDue to huge amount of requests please allow at least ONE week for processing for Citadel access. NO PERSONAL ACCESS, CORPS/ALLIANCES ONLY. TheCitadel magistrates CAN NOT give you jumpbridge access or standings so DO NOT ASK THEM FOR IT! If you receive no response in TWO weeks send us another evemail.For Individual Recruitment Information see this forumFor Corporation Recruitment Information talk to our Recruiting Coordinator: Rush HeitusDo not Idle in this channel or you will be removed! This includes everyone except cva personnel.Note: Diplos will NOT pay exorbitant CSPAs.Applying for standings? Read this FIRST -> http://www.cva-eve.org/standings/ Read this MOTD before mailing n++[ 2015.07.11 20:35:37 ] Silent Cyborg > any cva here? n++[ 2015.07.11 20:38:28 ] Silent Cyborg > hello...... n++[ 2015.07.11 20:41:24 ] Agent Khanid > o7 n++[ 2015.07.11 20:42:33 ] Silent Cyborg > whats my alliance standing with you?? n++[ 2015.07.11 20:43:51 ] Manfred Stahler > you are red n++[ 2015.07.11 20:48:19 ] Silent Cyborg > cool speaking to one of your diplos in convo n++[ 2015.07.11 21:05:51 ] Silent Cyborg > we are bringing slaves to D-GTMI
Lord Kailethre Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque 149	Posted - 2015.07.13 12:48:17 - [19] - Quote PFR should never have had these slaves. At all. Slavery, legally speaking, is the dominion of holders in the Empire who are supposed to be raising and teaching them in a manner that is in accordance to the will of God. Said freighter should never have had slaves in its hold, let alone been on field for combat operations. At least these people are with God now, instead of with their captors.
Silent Cyborg ISW Space Guild Phoebe Freeport Republic 11	Posted - 2015.07.13 13:02:19 - [20] - Quote Lord Kailethre wrote: PFR should never have had these slaves. At all. Slavery, legally speaking, is the dominion of holders in the Empire who are supposed to be raising and teaching them in a manner that is in accordance to the will of God. Said freighter should never have had slaves in its hold, let alone been on field for combat operations. At least these people are with God now, instead of with their captors. Captors? think you forget something: Silent Cyborg wrote: When a mommy save and a daddy slave love each other and have been working for me long enough I will issues them with a permit to mate. Soon after a baby slave arrives!
Haruchai Khan Secretariat General of the Republic Fleet 36	Posted - 2015.07.13 13:33:18 - [21] - Quote Goldfinch wrote: We close our eyes and try to imagine what it must have been like for the thousand souls, stuck inside a hold burning in space. What were their names? Who were they, and would anyone who loved them come to know how they died? Our journey to Amarr was made inside a compartment too small for us to lie in without folding up ourselves up in a way that caused us discomfort in walking, sitting, and sleeping for days after we had come out. It was two of us who had to find a way to share a compartment. We wonder if it could have been ourself in that burning hull in Provi, and no one would know or remember if we died, quietly and incapable of struggling. We feel we are in no position to have an opinion about the incident. On the contrary, my Lady, you have the strongest right to an opinion of all here. My view of this incident is that the argument is largely about the number of angels that dance upon the head of a pin. Slavery forces all those oppressed into situations of danger, and often death, which they would not have chosen were they free. Whatever the justification, this denial of freedom carries the ultimate blame. All the minutiae being peddled by both sides is clearly about their own egos rather than the fundamental rights of the unwilling dead. Scoring petty points against opponents using the deaths of innocents is truly sad. I do not stray far from the Republic's official stance on these matters. The sooner the slave trade is ended throughout New Eden, the better.
Haruchai Khan Secretariat General of the Republic Fleet 36	Posted - 2015.07.13 13:35:17 - [22] - Quote Haruchai Khan wrote: Goldfinch wrote: We close our eyes and try to imagine what it must have been like for the thousand souls, stuck inside a hold burning in space. What were their names? Who were they, and would anyone who loved them come to know how they died? Our journey to Amarr was made inside a compartment too small for us to lie in without folding up ourselves up in a way that caused us discomfort in walking, sitting, and sleeping for days after we had come out. It was two of us who had to find a way to share a compartment. We wonder if it could have been ourself in that burning hull in Provi, and no one would know or remember if we died, quietly and incapable of struggling. We feel we are in no position to have an opinion about the incident. On the contrary, my Lady, you have the strongest right to an opinion of all here. My view of this incident is that the argument is largely about the number of angels that dance upon the head of a pin. Slavery forces all those oppressed into situations of danger, and often death, which they would not have chosen were they free. Whatever the justification, this denial of freedom carries the ultimate blame to the shoulders of those who justify slavery on whatever grounds. All the minutiae being peddled by both sides is clearly about their own egos rather than the fundamental rights of the unwilling dead. Scoring petty points against opponents using the deaths of innocents is truly sad. I do not stray far from the Republic's official stance on these matters. The sooner the slave trade is ended throughout New Eden, the better.
Goldfinch House Rkard 99	Posted - 2015.07.13 13:44:12 - [23] - Quote Mr. Haruchai, We appreciate your sentiment, but we must clarify that our suffering was justified and righteous. It is not to say that we did not suffer in any small measure, we did because we are human and we feel pain. In this same way we feel sympathy and pain for those who died on that ship stuck inside its hold in Provi. But in our case, through the suffering we came out of it, clean. We are stripped of irrational fear and selfishness, and all that remains is Faith and Love. Suffering. Surrender. Salvation. veiled and bound my origin story (on R109)
Walter Cohen ISW Space Guild Phoebe Freeport Republic 1	Posted - 2015.07.13 13:55:38 - [24] - Quote CVA's propaganda in these posts is just despicable. From a viewpoint of PFR these were not slaves but freedom fighters. At some point in there live time they may have been slaves but have bee freed from oppression by PFR and have as free men and women joined the PFR military ground forces in the hope to free more "slaves" It seems clear that the fault here lays at CVA as it is clearly for "Slavery" hence rounded up any available men and called these fighters for a just cause as primary to send a clear message to there own slaves holdings. "Stay put or die" PFR can not let this stand unanswered and will always fight with the oppressed so it will launch further attempts to free slaves from oppression of the CVA forces. CVA space tyrants and spin doctors ... FREE ALL SLAVES ... FREEPORTS AND FREEDOME ANYWHERE
Liam Antolliere Liberty Vanguard 867	Posted - 2015.07.13 14:01:53 - [25] - Quote Silent Cyborg wrote: Note CVA called primary the freighter not the 3 hostile carriers the blood is on CVA hands, it was the carriers that tried to save the slaves You do not "save" a group of civilians by carting them through lawless space unnecessarily and then opening fire on sovereignty structures in that territory. What you did was cart a freighter full of civilians unnecessarily through hostile territory while trying to instigate a fight hoping that the various groups of capsuleers that make home in those parts would think the freighter contained highly valuable cargo, particularly given the fleet you were "safeguarding" it with. When you couldn't get the fight you wanted, you picked a fight by engaging in hostile military action. Regardless of how CVA responded to the action, the first and simple truth is that those lives were lost because you brought them there, because you set them up as bait and because you instigated a fight. At least have the backbone to own up to your disgraceful behavior. Despicable. "Though the people may hate me, that does not relieve me of my charge."
Haruchai Khan Secretariat General of the Republic Fleet 38	Posted - 2015.07.13 14:33:01 - [26] - Quote Goldfinch wrote: Mr. Haruchai, We appreciate your sentiment, but we must clarify that our suffering was justified and righteous. It is not to say that we did not suffer in any small measure, we did because we are human and we feel pain. In this same way we feel sympathy and pain for those who died on that ship stuck inside its hold in Provi. But in our case, through the suffering we came out of it, clean. We are stripped of irrational fear and selfishness, and all that remains is Faith and Love. Suffering. Surrender. Salvation. Lady, I understand your view on suffering. I find the concept of salvation through suffering problematic. One suspects that you would not voluntarily return to the condition of slavery, no matter the spiritual benefit. It is remarkable how few religious slavers would embrace the salvation on offer. In my diplomatic missions to the Mandate, I have met a number of former Holders who, through judicial or other means, have been reduced to the status of slave by the Empire. I have yet to meet one who considers his condition or spirit improved. You survived your imprisonment, and in your own terms, feel ennobled by the experience. These unfortunates and many others, do not survive. They have no choice but to live or die at another's whim. The issue at hand is 'whose whim'? It is clear that if this incident came before the Fleet Courts Martial, the death of the slaves would be considered the responsibility of the aggressors who brought them to an unprovoked action. The freighter containing civilians was put in harm's way for no conceivable military purpose and is therefore a war crime.
Utari Onzo Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 402	Posted - 2015.07.13 14:40:14 - [27] - Quote So now it's gone from slaves to freedom fighters from the mouths of the PFR pilots themselves, what next they were actually Intaki special forces? As for going into a diplomatic channel and stating you're bringing slaves to a system, that in no way constitutes what I previously stated as diplomatic behaviour. You knew you were marked as hostile by CVA, therefore if you intended to hand those individuals over you should have contacted CVA well before time to ensure the safety of that freighter. Instead, you turned up in full force, asked where their home system was with obvious hostile intent and were treated as the hostiles you were behaving to be by being banned from the fluid router. The fact remains if you wanted a fight, you got one, you didn't need to mess up diplomatic channels to get one just turning up is normally sufficient. The issue at hand here is your obvious baiting with a freighter filled with slaves in some sick joke that in no obvious manner was being done for any other purpose then to entrap CVA by putting those lives in harms way. You saying you tried to save them is even more sickening when you put them in place yourself. You have no justification for bringing those poor individuals along, and still have provided none outside "CVA shot them". No admission of what the intent was, no clarification, just more goading. "Face the enemy as a solid wall For faith is your armor And through it, the enemy will find no breach Wrap your arms around the enemy For faith is your fire And with it, burn away his evil"
Samira Kernher Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 1853	Posted - 2015.07.13 15:16:39 - [28] - Quote Haruchai Khan wrote: Lady, I understand your view on suffering. I find the concept of salvation through suffering problematic. One suspects that you would not voluntarily return to the condition of slavery, no matter the spiritual benefit. It is remarkable how few religious slavers would embrace the salvation on offer. In my diplomatic missions to the Mandate, I have met a number of former Holders who, through judicial or other means, have been reduced to the status of slave by the Empire. I have yet to meet one who considers his condition or spirit improved. You survived your imprisonment, and in your own terms, feel ennobled by the experience. These unfortunates and many others, do not survive. They have no choice but to live or die at another's whim. The issue at hand is 'whose whim'? Of the trillions of slaves in Amarr, very few are killed at the hands of their masters or work place. Most of us had good working environments and health care. Slaves are valuable property, and are taken care of. It is the sensationalism to claim that Amarr Holders would arbitrarily kill their own work force, even while Caldari entrepreneurs already condemn slavery as unprofitable for the owners. Slaves have been losing their lives instead at the hands of those who had no legal right to them. Heretics like Nauplius and IWHIP (Sani Sabik who sacrificed milions of slaves in blasphemous blood rites), or faithless foreigners and terrorists like Havohej (a minmatar "freedom fighter" who murdered hundreds of thousands of slaves because they wouldn't give up their faith). Ending the widespread murder of slaves is as simple as ensuring that slaves remain the property only of those legally and spiritually responsible for their care: Amarr Holders and authorized slavers. If you want to help slaves, then get them off the interstellar capsuleer market place, where Amarrian laws cannot protect them. Scriptural law and interstellar law both define the practice of slavery to be legal only in Amarr and the Kingdom and only by Holders. Instead of turning your anger on Amarr, look instead on the Secure Commerce Commission, whose unregulated open market has allowed anyone with enough money to purchase slaves in defiance of interstellar and Amarrian laws. "Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away." -- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
Kontrahage Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance 58	Posted - 2015.07.13 15:26:38 - [29] - Quote Walter Cohen wrote: CVA's propaganda in these posts is just despicable. I must point out that so far I am the only CVA member present in this thread and I have not participated in the discussion of the actual events but merely pointed out an obvious lack in control of the slave market and resulting illegal human trafficking. At this point I cannot resist to state that no matter the question of CVA due diligence this entire despicable affair seems very much to have been orchestrated by PFR. To what end however remains unclear.
Richard Masseri Intaki Liberation Front Intaki Prosperity Initiative 25	Posted - 2015.07.13 15:34:23 - [30] - Quote Namas and greetings tayam. Utari Onzo wrote: So now it's gone from slaves to freedom fighters from the mouths of the PFR pilots themselves, what next they were actually Intaki special forces? They can claim anything they like but the major fact in this is that lives were needlessly lost it is not a jovial matter or one for chest thumping let us bow our heads and mourn. Irrespective of any views to the contrary I would echo Mr Kontrahage. Kontrahage wrote: . However I wish to raise the question how PFR aquired those slaves. The true scandal is not this regrettable incident but the fact than unqualified entities, yes, everybody with some isk can go and buy people for their own, selfish purposes it seems. This is truly a terrible thing lets hope it is never repeated. Just Another Capsuleer-á
Haruchai Khan Secretariat General of the Republic Fleet 43	Posted - 2015.07.13 15:37:09 - [31] - Quote Lady Kernher You will find that I expressed no anger. The negotiations between the Republic and the Empire on the future of slavery are complex and ongoing. Both sides are best served by a recognition of realities rather than one's biased fantasies. I am encouraged that your Empress has a better grasp of the future than many of her subjects. This incident is beyond those parameters and I have expressed both a personal view - to a correspondent for whom I have respect - and a more formal opinion on the incident.
Anslo Scope Works 32005	Posted - 2015.07.13 15:51:20 - [32] - Quote What the hell am I reading. [center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Richard Masseri Intaki Liberation Front Intaki Prosperity Initiative 28	Posted - 2015.07.13 16:00:52 - [33] - Quote Anslo wrote: What the hell am I reading. That 1000 people died on a battlefield not an uncommon event if it hadn't been for the fact they had no reason to be there and were not there of their own choice. But I understand your confusion it seems an event which should just be set aside for grieving has become some sort of squabble over who should take the blame. Just Another Capsuleer-á
Vizage Capital Allied Industrial Distribution Evictus. 173	Posted - 2015.07.13 16:22:39 - [34] - Quote Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't classifying them as Freedom Fighters make them military personnel? Thus absolving CVA of any guilt in this matter what-so-ever? I mean if they were slaves, and thus non-combatants then engaging and destroying them would be a matter of debate (the debate we are having here.) But if they were freedom-fighters, I.e. combatants of some form, wouldn't their destruction be wholly justified as additional casualties in the engagement? To me that just doesn't seem like the argument you want to make, right now. If you're trying to split guilt across both parties. -K. Amsel
Desiderya Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade 1015	Posted - 2015.07.13 16:32:56 - [35] - Quote Gee. One thousand slaves. How can you go on with so much guilt. Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.
Makoto Priano Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. 7306	Posted - 2015.07.13 16:58:39 - [36] - Quote What I'm seeing here is that the PFR are opportunistic and politically manipulative. Knowing that the CVA will be too busy to retaliate for the PFR's intransigence, PFR instigates a fight and brings a non-military vessel onto a battlefield, and then uses it to decry the evils of the CVA. And lo, the PFR demonstrate that they are as amoral and feckless as virtually every sovereign power in null-security space. That's marginally disappointing. Guess it's back to business as usual. Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Civ Kado Dutch East Querious Company Phoebe Freeport Republic 87	Posted - 2015.07.13 17:15:23 - [37] - Quote I will chime in a say that PFR was operating a covert operation with the sole purpose of rescuing a slave encampment which was located in CVA space. PFR was able to triangulate a ping from one of the slaves who was a citizen of sovereign PFR space. As such, a covert rescue mission was launched to bring back that person along with any other illegally apprehended persons who were ultimately bound to be sold as slaves. It's no surprise that CVA is pro-slavery. Their long-standing empire has been built and supported on slave labor. In their scramble to prevent any intel from leaking from one of the many rescued slaves they chose to permanently silence the 1000 slaves bound for freedom, than resolve this issue in any diplomatic way. Shame on CVA. I was there, it was real. Those lives were real and it saddens me to see people in here using those deaths to push their own agenda. at the end of the day all this shows is CVA's whimper of a dying Empire faced with new technologies and ideals that are threatening their long-standing, slave-built, and oppressing state. Right now it's all just a matter of time before we see their weak pillars start to crumble.
Samira Kernher Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 1856	Posted - 2015.07.13 17:27:55 - [38] - Quote It's a covert slave extraction now? PFR is having a really hard time keeping its story straight. "Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away." -- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
Civ Kado Dutch East Querious Company Phoebe Freeport Republic 89	Posted - 2015.07.13 17:29:26 - [39] - Quote Stop sucking CVA's teet.
Liam Antolliere Liberty Vanguard 877	Posted - 2015.07.13 17:37:52 - [40] - Quote Samira Kernher wrote: It's a covert slave extraction now? PFR is having a really hard time keeping its story straight. Never mind keeping their story straight... Covert? You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means. "Though the people may hate me, that does not relieve me of my charge."
Goldfinch House Rkard 105	Posted - 2015.07.13 17:39:25 - [41] - Quote Civ Kado wrote: PFR was operating a covert operation with the sole purpose of rescuing a slave encampment which was located in CVA space. PFR was able to triangulate a ping from one of the slaves who was a citizen of sovereign PFR space. As such, a covert rescue mission was launched to bring back that person along with any other illegally apprehended persons who were ultimately bound to be sold as slaves. Emphasis ours: Silent Cyborg wrote: Channel ID: 2137543127 Channel Name: CVA-Diplo Listener: Silent Cyborg Session started: 2015.07.11 20:29:15 n++[ 2015.07.11 21:05:51 ] Silent Cyborg > we are bringing slaves to D-GTMI The DED kill of PFR's Fenrir is registered to occur on 2015.07.11 at 22:27. Civ Kado, let it be known that you are a liar. veiled and bound my origin story (on R109)
Civ Kado Dutch East Querious Company Phoebe Freeport Republic 89	Posted - 2015.07.13 17:40:28 - [42] - Quote Liam Antolliere wrote: Samira Kernher wrote: It's a covert slave extraction now? PFR is having a really hard time keeping its story straight. Never mind keeping their story straight... Covert? You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means. Civ Kado wrote: PFR was operating a covert. We really need to have reading comprehension be part of the capsuleer licensing test, wouldn't you agree?
Scherezad Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 2069	Posted - 2015.07.13 18:10:35 - [43] - Quote Civ Kado wrote: Why don't you be a doll and let the grownups talk this out, eh? Accusing a trained lawyer of being infantile in her formal statements, and adding in a little sexism? Interesting strategy, sir.
Vizage Capital Allied Industrial Distribution Evictus. 174	Posted - 2015.07.13 18:43:39 - [44] - Quote Mr. Kado, you've clearly been caught in an outright lie. Best you pack this one, call it a loss and not risk further sullying yourself or the reputation of PFR. -K
Sammie MacWinters Dutch East Querious Company Phoebe Freeport Republic 31	Posted - 2015.07.13 18:49:13 - [45] - Quote Please stop.
Makoto Priano Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. 7306	Posted - 2015.07.13 19:10:01 - [46] - Quote You know, I know an improv theater troupe from Syndicate that would be great for this one. I'll see if they're willing to do some light comedy of it all. Popcorn, of course, will be provided for any attendee. Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Corraidhin Farsaidh Farsaidh's Freeborn 1375	Posted - 2015.07.13 19:57:51 - [47] - Quote Makoto Priano wrote: You know, I know an improv theater troupe from Syndicate that would be great for this one. I'll see if they're willing to do some light comedy of it all. Popcorn, of course, will be provided for any attendee. I'll come for the popcorn, perhaps some light heckling too...
Siddhar Gangari Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan 25	Posted - 2015.07.13 20:12:01 - [48] - Quote Utari Onzo wrote: May God have mercy on your souls for the blood of those slaves that is on your hands, not CVA's. If you truly care so much for the lives of slaves, then release them into the custody of Ushra'Khan and facilitate the surrender of all systems currently occupied by the 24th Imperial Crusade to the Tribal Liberation Force. Otherwise do not bore us with your self-righteous indignation, slaver.
Utari Onzo Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 415	Posted - 2015.07.13 20:23:31 - [49] - Quote Siddhar Gangari wrote: Utari Onzo wrote: May God have mercy on your souls for the blood of those slaves that is on your hands, not CVA's. If you truly care so much for the lives of slaves, then release them into the custody of Ushra'Khan and facilitate the surrender of all systems currently occupied by the 24th Imperial Crusade to the Tribal Liberation Force. Otherwise do not bore us with your self-righteous indignation, slaver. If you want the systems you can come claim them through our guns, terrorist. "Face the enemy as a solid wall For faith is your armor And through it, the enemy will find no breach Wrap your arms around the enemy For faith is your fire And with it, burn away his evil"
Jev North Pyre Falcon Defence and Security 344	Posted - 2015.07.13 20:41:30 - [50] - Quote Seems like you're adapting pretty quickly to the local culture, pilot.
Siddhar Gangari Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan 28	Posted - 2015.07.13 20:53:57 - [51] - Quote [quote=Utari Onzo If you want the systems you can come claim them through our guns, terrorist.[/quote] Like a hound caught in a trap, you gnash your teeth as the hunter approaches. Very well then. We will end your misery.
Utari Onzo Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 416	Posted - 2015.07.13 21:01:43 - [52] - Quote Siddhar Gangari wrote: Utari Onzo wrote: If you want the systems you can come claim them through our guns, terrorist. Like a hound caught in a trap, you gnash your teeth as the hunter approaches. Very well then. We will end your misery. The 'hunter' has been approaching for a few weeks now. Regardless, this is a derailment of the op of this thread. Those slaves didn't deserve to die and that is that. "Face the enemy as a solid wall For faith is your armor And through it, the enemy will find no breach Wrap your arms around the enemy For faith is your fire And with it, burn away his evil"
Hakkod Licentia Ex Vereor Phoebe Freeport Republic 0	Posted - 2015.07.13 21:52:33 - [53] - Quote Greetings residents of CVA space, fellow capsuleers and residents of New Eden, The Phoebe Freeport Republic will accept full responsibility for the loss of several billions worth of military assets as well as instigation of conflict and aggressive action taken against CVA structures. We will however under no circumstance accept to be held to account for the tragic and absolutely reprehensible loss of a thousand human lives at the hands of the CVA fleet. As is well known, our resident space is a place of opportunity, freedom and equal chances, beset by hostility and the perils of pirate infested space. Within all this sounds a call towards the chance at a better life that many hear and follow. At the conclusion of a very delicate operation, PFR forces managed to liberate a covert transport containing a significant number of Minmatar slaves from the Angel Cartel. The Phoebe Freeport Republic has not yet managed to uncover what the Dominations planned with these "resources", but we are confident that ongoing Intelligence efforts will soon yield results. Nevertheless, we could not let injustice stand. So as not to rouse suspicion, an escort fleet was assembled under Amarrian guise and the decision was made to provide protection until the transport reached what we thought would be a safe haven and a new home for our wards, in Providence. Our task force navigated thirty systems, proving a good deterrent against any would-be aggressors. Once our vessels entered the region, we made sure to sound every horn, ring every bell. I personally addressed the CVA Public Diplomatic communications channel and instructed we had a freighter with us, with cargo for them. I, as well as all the members of our fleet and indeed entire Alliance were swiftly filtered and banned off the network, under hostile standings and with no reply or instruction. We took this as a definite sign of hostility and assumed hostile fleets inbound. We had moments to make a decision and could not simply abandon these souls to the cold and dark of space. We resolved to give it our best to get these people home. Our fleet flew cover and we attempted to breach the perimeter defenses of the D-GTMI system outpost in order to allow for a transfer to be carried out. We watched with horror as CVA pilots descended and set as primary target the fruits of our labor, the slave transport itself. There are many documented visual stills and recordings that attest that PFR vessels were still firing all batteries in indignation while the wreck of the Freighter drifted apart, even though CVA bombers were quick to blanket the engagement area in fire and swiftly dispose of the wreck and evidence of the atrocity. Gentlemen, we advertised ourselves as best we could. While you may make the claim that proper diplomatic channels were not observed, we are newcomers to your sovereign space and do not know your guidelines and procedures. Additionally such operations normally require strict measures to ensure safety and security. Even in the absence of a proper inspection and scan of the vessel, which could have been carried out, the undeniable fact is CVA forces brought their full might to bear against a slow, visible, unarmed vessel while we attempted to provide cover. You pulled the trigger. The blood of a thousand Minmatar souls are on your hands. Accept responsibility and do not attempt to shift the blame away from the reality of your missiles ripping that ship apart. With resolve, Hakkod Head Diplomat Licentia Ex Vereor Phoebe Freeport Republic
Diana Kim State Protectorate Caldari State 1900	Posted - 2015.07.13 22:38:47 - [54] - Quote Desiderya wrote: Gee. One thousand slaves. How can you go on with so much guilt. Freighter crew itself can match that size. Why nobody talks about them, but instead about these slaves, that are even considered as a commodity?..
Makoto Priano Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. 7308	Posted - 2015.07.13 22:43:08 - [55] - Quote Sooo. Why didn't you use a blockade runner, then? Quick, capable of fitting a cloak, and capable of outrunning most of those who would chase it. Seems a reasonable thing, doesn't it? And for that matter, rescuing these slaves from the Angel Cartel? Why bring it through Providence then? As we well know, Providence is a region with a Sansha presence. To my knowledge, the Cartel hasn't had a presence there in years, if ever. Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Hakkod Licentia Ex Vereor Phoebe Freeport Republic 2	Posted - 2015.07.13 22:45:44 - [56] - Quote Makoto Priano wrote: Sooo. Why didn't you use a blockade runner, then? Quick, capable of fitting a cloak, and capable of outrunning most of those who would chase it. Seems a reasonable thing, doesn't it? And for that matter, rescuing these slaves from the Angel Cartel? Why bring it through Providence then? As we well know, Providence is a region with a Sansha presence. To my knowledge, the Cartel hasn't had a presence there in years, if ever. It was our tactical assessment that a proper fleet was needed to secure the operation. As to your second point, Scalding Pass however, is infested with Angels.
Makoto Priano Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. 7309	Posted - 2015.07.13 22:59:34 - [57] - Quote Silent Cyborg wrote: Channel ID: 2137543127 Channel Name: CVA-Diplo Listener: Silent Cyborg Session started: 2015.07.11 20:29:15 n++[ 2015.07.11 21:05:51 ] Silent Cyborg > we are bringing slaves to D-GTMI So-- a proper fleet could still certainly escort a blockade runner, could it not? Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Sinjin Mokk Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly. 212	Posted - 2015.07.14 01:33:08 - [58] - Quote Hakkod wrote: At the conclusion of a very delicate operation, PFR forces managed to liberate a covert transport containing a significant number of Minmatar slaves from the Angel Cartel. The Phoebe Freeport Republic has not yet managed to uncover what the Dominations planned with these "resources", but we are confident that ongoing Intelligence efforts will soon yield results. Nevertheless, we could not let injustice stand. I strongly suggest you redact this right now before the truth of where and how you got those slaves becomes very common knowledge. You disgrace your Corp, your Alliance, your Empire and your God with your lies. I'm giving you one shot at redemption. Angels...are never far. Dark Amarr: Rumors!
Tiberious Thessalonia Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade 2429	Posted - 2015.07.14 06:18:34 - [59] - Quote Siddhar Gangari wrote: Utari Onzo wrote: May God have mercy on your souls for the blood of those slaves that is on your hands, not CVA's. If you truly care so much for the lives of slaves, then release them into the custody of Ushra'Khan and facilitate the surrender of all systems currently occupied by the 24th Imperial Crusade to the Tribal Liberation Force. Otherwise do not bore us with your self-righteous indignation, slaver. Sorry, being paid too much to hold on to some systems for them.
Utari Onzo Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 420	Posted - 2015.07.14 06:31:03 - [60] - Quote Hakkod wrote: Greetings residents of CVA space, fellow capsuleers and residents of New Eden, The Phoebe Freeport Republic will accept full responsibility for the loss of several billions worth of military assets as well as instigation of conflict and aggressive action taken against CVA structures. We will however under no circumstance accept to be held to account for the tragic and absolutely reprehensible loss of a thousand human lives at the hands of the CVA fleet. As is well known, our resident space is a place of opportunity, freedom and equal chances, beset by hostility and the perils of pirate infested space. Within all this sounds a call towards the chance at a better life that many hear and follow. At the conclusion of a very delicate operation, PFR forces managed to liberate a covert transport containing a significant number of Minmatar slaves from the Angel Cartel. The Phoebe Freeport Republic has not yet managed to uncover what the Dominations planned with these "resources", but we are confident that ongoing Intelligence efforts will soon yield results. Nevertheless, we could not let injustice stand. So as not to rouse suspicion, an escort fleet was assembled under Amarrian guise and the decision was made to provide protection until the transport reached what we thought would be a safe haven and a new home for our wards, in Providence. Our task force navigated thirty systems, proving a good deterrent against any would-be aggressors. Once our vessels entered the region, we made sure to sound every horn, ring every bell. I personally addressed the CVA Public Diplomatic communications channel and instructed we had a freighter with us, with cargo for them. I, as well as all the members of our fleet and indeed entire Alliance were swiftly filtered and banned off the network, under hostile standings and with no reply or instruction. We took this as a definite sign of hostility and assumed hostile fleets inbound. We had moments to make a decision and could not simply abandon these souls to the cold and dark of space. We resolved to give it our best to get these people home. Our fleet flew cover and we attempted to breach the perimeter defenses of the D-GTMI system outpost in order to allow for a transfer to be carried out. We watched with horror as CVA pilots descended and set as primary target the fruits of our labor, the slave transport itself. There are many documented visual stills and recordings that attest that PFR vessels were still firing all batteries in indignation while the wreck of the Freighter drifted apart, even though CVA bombers were quick to blanket the engagement area in fire and swiftly dispose of the wreck and evidence of the atrocity. Gentlemen, we advertised ourselves as best we could. While you may make the claim that proper diplomatic channels were not observed, we are newcomers to your sovereign space and do not know your guidelines and procedures. Additionally such operations normally require strict measures to ensure safety and security. Even in the absence of a proper inspection and scan of the vessel, which could have been carried out, the undeniable fact is CVA forces brought their full might to bear against a slow, visible, unarmed vessel while we attempted to provide cover. You pulled the trigger. The blood of a thousand Minmatar souls is on your hands. Accept responsibility and do not attempt to shift the blame away from the reality of your missiles ripping that ship apart. With resolve, Hakkod Head Diplomat Licentia Ex Vereor Phoebe Freeport Republic I appreciate you have been forth coming with a full, detailed account from a recognised diplomat, finally. It's taken a while to get to grips with the contradictory statements of your own pilots it seems. Here's where the thing bothers me. Why did you not warn CVA long before departing and only chose to do so when you already had a large fleet in their region, and additionally admitted to breaching defences and engaging in hostile action to "sound the bell"? I appreciate your confession in not knowing what proper diplomatic conduct should have been and how to go about properly informing of your intentions, but the fact remains that freighter had no place being in hostile territory without prior warning to the residents, and by prior warning I mean long before you brought a fleet accompanied by capitals turning up at their doorstep. Are you aware that CVA diplomats, and infact any diplomat worth their salt, would have been willing to make discussions in secret and private to protect the security of this operation? That is a common sense approaching when moving such high risk vessels as freighters through null security to another sovereign capsuleer refion. You tell someone before hand otherwise your intentions are in no way clear. CVA would have no discernable way to know what your plans were when a fleet member pf yours simply stated they were bringing slaves, with a hostile fleet in region, and not made very clearly at all the true intent. I hope and pray you learn from this fiasco and next time learn what proper fore warning is. "Face the enemy as a solid wall For faith is your armor And through it, the enemy will find no breach Wrap your arms around the enemy For faith is your fire And with it, burn away his evil"
Utari Onzo Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 420	Posted - 2015.07.14 06:33:49 - [61] - Quote Utari Onzo wrote: Hakkod wrote: Greetings residents of CVA space, fellow capsuleers and residents of New Eden, The Phoebe Freeport Republic will accept full responsibility for the loss of several billions worth of military assets as well as instigation of conflict and aggressive action taken against CVA structures. We will however under no circumstance accept to be held to account for the tragic and absolutely reprehensible loss of a thousand human lives at the hands of the CVA fleet. As is well known, our resident space is a place of opportunity, freedom and equal chances, beset by hostility and the perils of pirate infested space. Within all this sounds a call towards the chance at a better life that many hear and follow. At the conclusion of a very delicate operation, PFR forces managed to liberate a covert transport containing a significant number of Minmatar slaves from the Angel Cartel. The Phoebe Freeport Republic has not yet managed to uncover what the Dominations planned with these "resources", but we are confident that ongoing Intelligence efforts will soon yield results. Nevertheless, we could not let injustice stand. So as not to rouse suspicion, an escort fleet was assembled under Amarrian guise and the decision was made to provide protection until the transport reached what we thought would be a safe haven and a new home for our wards, in Providence. Our task force navigated thirty systems, proving a good deterrent against any would-be aggressors. Once our vessels entered the region, we made sure to sound every horn, ring every bell. I personally addressed the CVA Public Diplomatic communications channel and instructed we had a freighter with us, with cargo for them. I, as well as all the members of our fleet and indeed entire Alliance were swiftly filtered and banned off the network, under hostile standings and with no reply or instruction. We took this as a definite sign of hostility and assumed hostile fleets inbound. We had moments to make a decision and could not simply abandon these souls to the cold and dark of space. We resolved to give it our best to get these people home. Our fleet flew cover and we attempted to breach the perimeter defenses of the D-GTMI system outpost in order to allow for a transfer to be carried out. We watched with horror as CVA pilots descended and set as primary target the fruits of our labor, the slave transport itself. There are many documented visual stills and recordings that attest that PFR vessels were still firing all batteries in indignation while the wreck of the Freighter drifted apart, even though CVA bombers were quick to blanket the engagement area in fire and swiftly dispose of the wreck and evidence of the atrocity. Gentlemen, we advertised ourselves as best we could. While you may make the claim that proper diplomatic channels were not observed, we are newcomers to your sovereign space and do not know your guidelines and procedures. Additionally such operations normally require strict measures to ensure safety and security. Even in the absence of a proper inspection and scan of the vessel, which could have been carried out, the undeniable fact is CVA forces brought their full might to bear against a slow, visible, unarmed vessel while we attempted to provide cover. You pulled the trigger. The blood of a thousand Minmatar souls is on your hands. Accept responsibility and do not attempt to shift the blame away from the reality of your missiles ripping that ship apart. With resolve, Hakkod Head Diplomat Licentia Ex Vereor Phoebe Freeport Republic I appreciate yoy have been forth coming with a full, detailed account from a recognised diplomat, finally. It's taken a while to get to grips with the contradictory statements of your own pilots it seems. Here's where the thing bothers me. Why did you not warn CVA long before departing and only chose to do so when you already had a large fleet in their region, and additionally admitted to breaching defences and engaging in hostile action to "sound the bell"? I appreciate your confession in not knowing what proper diplomatic conduct should have been and how to go about properly informing of your intentions, but the fact remains that freighter had no place being in hostile territory without prior warning to the residents, and by prior warning I mean long before you brought a fleet accompanied by capitals turning up at their doorstep. Are you aware that CVA diplomats, and infact any diplomat worth their salt, would have been willing to make discussions in secret and private to protect the security of this operation? That is a common sense approaching when moving such high risk vessels as freighters through null security to another sovereign capsuleer region. You tell someone before hand otherwise your intentions are in no way clear. CVA would have no discernable way to know what your plans were when a fleet member of yours simply stated they were bringing slaves, with a hostile fleet in region, and not made very clearly at all the true intent. I hope and pray you learn from this fiasco and next time learn what proper fore warning is. "Face the enemy as a solid wall For faith is your armor And through it, the enemy will find no breach Wrap your arms around the enemy For faith is your fire And with it, burn away his evil"
Leopold Caine Stillwater Corporation 566	Posted - 2015.07.14 06:38:47 - [62] - Quote Hakkod wrote: Within all this sounds a call towards the chance at a better life that many hear and follow. At the conclusion of a very delicate operation, PFR forces managed to liberate a covert transport containing a significant number of Minmatar slaves from the Angel Cartel. I thought you had enough of a clusterfuck on your hands without trying to dig your way out of this through such improbable and petty lies. Did you really think we wouldn't notice? In either way, I'll let Sinjin wrap this one up; from what I've heard, some of your peers already know the truth. Looking forward to that redaction, Mr. Hakkod, and what kind of a wild story you'll come up with next. Leopold Caine, Domination Malakim Angels are never far... Stillwater Corporation Recruitment Open - Angel Cartel Bloc
Hakkod Licentia Ex Vereor Phoebe Freeport Republic 5	Posted - 2015.07.14 09:24:01 - [63] - Quote Sinjin Mokk wrote: Hakkod wrote: At the conclusion of a very delicate operation, PFR forces managed to liberate a covert transport containing a significant number of Minmatar slaves from the Angel Cartel. The Phoebe Freeport Republic has not yet managed to uncover what the Dominations planned with these "resources", but we are confident that ongoing Intelligence efforts will soon yield results. Nevertheless, we could not let injustice stand. I strongly suggest you redact this right now before the truth of where and how you got those slaves becomes very common knowledge. You disgrace your Corp, your Alliance, your Empire and your God with your lies. I'm giving you one shot at redemption. Angels...are never far. Lord Spod is the one true God. And Walter is His only begotten.
Sinjin Mokk Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly. 220	Posted - 2015.07.14 11:43:19 - [64] - Quote Hakkod wrote: Lord Spod is the one true God. And Walter is His only begotten. Oh...I see now. You're a mewling idiot. I guess that will have to suffice as a redaction. Try not to hurt yourself speaking in public again. And try not to drool on the deck quite so much. Dark Amarr: Rumors!
Akrasjel Lanate Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance 1790	Posted - 2015.07.14 13:33:38 - [65] - Quote How does this thousand compares to the millions that possibly died from the moment when this thread has been started. Akrasjel Lanate Member of Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance Citizen of Solitude
Hakkod Licentia Ex Vereor Phoebe Freeport Republic 7	Posted - 2015.07.14 15:26:00 - [66] - Quote OOC: We hope you enjoyed that small bit of content as much as we have. It was a pleasure to fly over there and stir things up/get blown up. If that made the evening a bit more exciting for a few more people, we'll count it as a job well done. Fly dangerously.
Liam Antolliere Liberty Vanguard 882	Posted - 2015.07.14 16:43:32 - [67] - Quote Akrasjel Lanate wrote: How does this thousand compares to the millions that possibly died from the moment when this thread has been started. What makes them so special. Principle. To explain: While fair, your question represents a misunderstanding of the purpose of this discussion. It's not the number of people that were killed, nor is it the manner in which they were killed. It's the principle behind the situation that led to their deaths. "Though the people may hate me, that does not relieve me of my charge."
Kahar Dex Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance 123	Posted - 2015.07.14 17:06:40 - [68] - Quote From the Office of His Imminence Cardinal Kahar Dex: On the matter concerning the Phoebe Freeport Republic Incident: - No prior diplomatic communiqu+¬ was received by either Alliance Executor, or CVA Diplomats - Pilots of the PFR joined CVA diplomatic channels with provocative demeanors whom were subsequently banned from said channels - Forces within the PFR opened fire on the station at D-GTMI - Forces within the PFR then began attacking a friendly SBU on the T-R gate It was at this point the Providence Coalition fleet arrived in system. There was no diplomatic messages sent to the Amarrian Fleet Commander, nor was a request to parlay made in local channels. CVA-Provi fleet was responding to distress calls from the station, and auto-alerts send from the SBU under fire, and was prepared to defend it's sovereignty (as such, no ships were equipped with cargo-hold scanning equipment). Upon careful scrutiny of local logs, disclosure of the slaves aboard the freighter did not occur until after the destruction of the vessel. If the freighter were indeed meant as a "peace" offering to the CVA, then this is a costly lesson in art of normal diplomatic procedures (i.e. you don't just show up to someone's doorstep claiming to have a gift, while simultaneously lighting their front yard on fire). Costly both in terms of their financial losses (est. @ 12b) as well as in the innocent lives lost. If the PFR were attempting a maneuver the use of innocent slaves as "flesh jackets" or as remedies to garner press, then these acts are condemnable by the Amarr faith, and held in utmost disdain. The PFR may subject themselves to the Amarr faith in contrition and repentance (the degree of which is dependent on whether this loss is the result of carelessness/negligence or actual evil intentions. The CVA mourns the loss of those innocent slaves, and entrusts them into the hands of the Most High God.
Hakkod Licentia Ex Vereor Phoebe Freeport Republic 9	Posted - 2015.07.14 17:24:09 - [69] - Quote As previously outlined, PFR members communicated the presence of slaves approximately two hours before the destruction of the Fenrir-class Minmatar Freighter. Another important distinction to be made on the topic that is being so carefully skirted around: The Phoebe Freeport Republic does not fire upon unarmed industrial and commercial vessels in our sovereign space. Additionally, neither does PFR insult members of foreign diplomatic corps present in public forum. Adamantly, Hakkod Head Diplomat Licentia Ex Vereor Phoebe Freeport Republic
Kalaratiri Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade 658	Posted - 2015.07.14 18:39:40 - [70] - Quote Hakkod wrote: , PFR forces managed to liberate a covert transport containing a significant number of Minmatar slaves from the Angel Cartel. The Phoebe Freeport Republic has not yet managed to uncover what the Dominations planned with these "resources", but we are confident that ongoing Intelligence efforts will soon yield results. Nevertheless, we could not let injustice stand. Ruuuude. She's mad but she's magic, there's no lie in her fire. This is possibly one of the worst threads in the history of these forums. -á- CCP Falcon
Lyn Farel Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque 1161	Posted - 2015.07.14 19:47:58 - [71] - Quote Cardinal Dex, Forgive me for the... question, that may sound like an inquiry - it really is not - but some voices mentioned that the CVA fleet targeted the freighter and proceeded to its destruction first, before anything else... ?
Sammie MacWinters Dutch East Querious Company Phoebe Freeport Republic 32	Posted - 2015.07.14 21:25:37 - [72] - Quote Please stop.
Anyanka Funk Jacklight Corporation 132	Posted - 2015.07.14 21:57:33 - [73] - Quote Sammie MacWinters wrote: Please stop. Who and what exactly?
Nauplius Hoi Andrapodistai 388	Posted - 2015.07.15 00:49:21 - [74] - Quote As the undisputed leading authority in all of New Eden on the subject of slave freighter destruction, having twice offered over 200,000 slaves to God in this manner, I do hereby pronounce GÇö It is altogether righteous and good to offer a sacrifice of slaves to the Blood God at the start of a military campaign. Such a sacrifice cleanses one's sins and proves one ready and willing to do violence in God's name. Indeed, I have long urged the Empire to prove itself worthy of a new Reclaiming with a huge sacrifice of slaves. However, there are three problem's with PFR's sacrifice. First, the number of slaves was not sufficient. I personally have twice sacrificed over a million slaves to God. Surely, a great and powerful Alliance like PFR can offer up more than a measly 1000 slaves; such numbers do not impress a holy and righteous God. Second, the PFR sacrifice appears to lack correct form. Slaves should be sacrificed in a grand religious rite intended to produce a consecration of the filthy Minmatar base matter into a worthy sacrifice onto a holy and righteous God. PFR, on the other hand, just dragged the slaves along during a combat mission and didn't even do the shooting of the slaves themselves. Third, the sacrifice appears to be aimed at a non-righteous purpose. Providence is like the Amarr Empire GÇö wayward and liberal. Despite that, it is still part of the Chosen people of God, and not an appropriate target for invasion. Go invade someone else instead. Amen. Amarr Victor.
Anyanka Funk Jacklight Corporation 133	Posted - 2015.07.15 01:06:28 - [75] - Quote Nauplius wrote: As the undisputed leading authority in all of New Eden on the subject of slave freighter destruction, having twice offered over 200,000 slaves to God in this manner, I do hereby pronounce GÇö It is altogether righteous and good to offer a sacrifice of slaves to the Blood God at the start of a military campaign. Such a sacrifice cleanses one's sins and proves one ready and willing to do violence in God's name. Indeed, I have long urged the Empire to prove itself worthy of a new Reclaiming with a huge sacrifice of slaves. However, there are three problem's with PFR's sacrifice. First, the number of slaves was not sufficient. I personally have twice sacrificed over a million slaves to God. Surely, a great and powerful Alliance like PFR can offer up more than a measly 1000 slaves; such numbers do not impress a holy and righteous God. Second, the PFR sacrifice appears to lack correct form. Slaves should be sacrificed in a grand religious rite intended to produce a consecration of the filthy Minmatar base matter into a worthy sacrifice onto a holy and righteous God. PFR, on the other hand, just dragged the slaves along during a combat mission and didn't even do the shooting of the slaves themselves. Third, the sacrifice appears to be aimed at a non-righteous purpose. Providence is like the Amarr Empire GÇö wayward and liberal. Despite that, it is still part of the Chosen people of God, and not an appropriate target for invasion. Go invade someone else instead. Amen. Amarr Victor. Finally! I've been waiting for this post.
Sinjin Mokk Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly. 235	Posted - 2015.07.15 01:37:27 - [76] - Quote Anyanka Funk wrote: Nauplius wrote: As the undisputed leading authority in all of New Eden on the subject of slave freighter destruction, having twice offered over 200,000 slaves to God in this manner, I do hereby pronounce GÇö It is altogether righteous and good to offer a sacrifice of slaves to the Blood God at the start of a military campaign. Such a sacrifice cleanses one's sins and proves one ready and willing to do violence in God's name. Indeed, I have long urged the Empire to prove itself worthy of a new Reclaiming with a huge sacrifice of slaves. However, there are three problem's with PFR's sacrifice. First, the number of slaves was not sufficient. I personally have twice sacrificed over a million slaves to God. Surely, a great and powerful Alliance like PFR can offer up more than a measly 1000 slaves; such numbers do not impress a holy and righteous God. Second, the PFR sacrifice appears to lack correct form. Slaves should be sacrificed in a grand religious rite intended to produce a consecration of the filthy Minmatar base matter into a worthy sacrifice onto a holy and righteous God. PFR, on the other hand, just dragged the slaves along during a combat mission and didn't even do the shooting of the slaves themselves. Third, the sacrifice appears to be aimed at a non-righteous purpose. Providence is like the Amarr Empire GÇö wayward and liberal. Despite that, it is still part of the Chosen people of God, and not an appropriate target for invasion. Go invade someone else instead. Amen. Amarr Victor. Finally! I've been waiting for this post. Also, "BWAHAHAHA" Dark Amarr: Rumors!
Lord Kailethre Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque 157	Posted - 2015.07.15 10:59:53 - [77] - Quote Nauplius should join PFR. He seems like he'd be a good FC for them.
Yon Tu-Ka Dutch East Querious Company Phoebe Freeport Republic 0	Posted - 2015.07.16 08:12:05 - [78] - Quote Lyn Farel wrote: Cardinal Dex, Forgive me for the... question, that may sound like an inquiry - it really is not - but some voices mentioned that the CVA fleet targeted the freighter and proceeded to its destruction first, before anything else... ? My dear Lady, according to unofficial data analysis, the freighter was targeted and destroyed about 3 minutes into the engagement. Just a couple of frigate class vessels and a battlecruiser died before the freighter was destructed. By any means, for me this does not feel right. One would assume that a harmless, unarmed freighter could be spared of the missiles of your fleet until all combat threats are eliminated. This did not happen. I know, that our "entering the stage" maneuver was not the most appropiate thing to do, but still it gets dwarfed by primaring the only unarmed vessel of an enemy fleet plus fielding a doctrine that can easily match, if not overwhelm, the forces that we fielded. Yours, one of the pilot that died more than one death on that day. === OOC === http://evf-eve.com/services/brcat/?s=3709&b=6587850&e=152&t=uvvvvb&r=1&ro=15 -> look at the timeline. It died at the beginning. :(
Kontrahage Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance 77	Posted - 2015.07.16 11:33:06 - [79] - Quote After following this discussion here and the unrelated thread originally opened by Lord Vaari I am astonished as how much controversy has erupted over the destruction of this freighter in 0.0 that was part of a combat operation without previous scans while the mass murder of freighter crews in hisec by a madman who claims the amarr throne for humanitarian reasons and his known marauder supporters is mostly ignored. Some even seem to sympathize simply because they question her Imperial Majesty's legitimacy. However even if one had those doubts would Singularity not still be a monster to be opposed?
Anmia Ambraelle The Catalan Grand Company Phoebe Freeport Republic 0	Posted - 2015.07.17 21:25:48 - [80] - Quote Sinjin Mokk wrote: Hakkod wrote: Lord Spod is the one true God. And Walter is His only begotten. Oh...I see now. You're a mewling idiot. I guess that will have to suffice as a redaction. Try not to hurt yourself speaking in public again. And try not to drool on the deck quite so much. Mock not! Lord Spod is with us in his many aspects. Walter, his begotten, guides us through the perils of space.
Diana Kim State Protectorate Caldari State 1908	Posted - 2015.07.18 07:58:46 - [81] - Quote Kontrahage wrote: After following this discussion here and the unrelated thread originally opened by Lord Vaari I am astonished as how much controversy has erupted over the destruction of this freighter in 0.0 that was part of a combat operation without previous scans while the mass murder of freighter crews in hisec by a madman who claims the amarr throne for humanitarian reasons and his known marauder supporters is mostly ignored. Some even seem to sympathize simply because they question her Imperial Majesty's legitimacy. However even if one had those doubts would Singularity not still be a monster to be opposed? Lots of noise out of nothing. Just 1000 slaves, just one freighter, but people are trying to make points and propagate their interests just by blaming each other in their deaths.
Lyn Farel Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque 1209	Posted - 2015.07.18 09:50:22 - [82] - Quote Kontrahage wrote: After following this discussion here and the unrelated thread originally opened by Lord Vaari I am astonished as how much controversy has erupted over the destruction of this freighter in 0.0 that was part of a combat operation without previous scans while the mass murder of freighter crews in hisec by a madman who claims the amarr throne for humanitarian reasons and his known marauder supporters is mostly ignored. Some even seem to sympathize simply because they question her Imperial Majesty's legitimacy. However even if one had those doubts would Singularity not still be a monster to be opposed? Ah well... I doubt that beyond the madman you mentioned many really disagree on what to think of the mass murders of freighter crews in high security, thus why no real debate arose around that. If that does make sense, brother Kontrahage.

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