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Centurin Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2006.12.01 19:21:00 - [31] I feel sorry for the OP who is still trying to fly a deimos. Kali is about NOS warfare which leaves all blaster ships in the dust. Deimos went from being a crappy HAC to being a useless one. I totally agree that Kali is messed up, but the Deimos really isn't a good example to use. And the Myrmidon is anything but overpowered. It has NO gun bonus and can only carry 5 heavies. Pop the drones and it's turns into a good looking hauler. If you want to survive, you need to lose the cap drawing weapons, aka blasters. Nos is the name of the game. You can say it's stinks all you want, but I'm not the one that made it that way. Thank Tux for that. ----------------------------------------------- "It's great playing Caldari Online, isn't it?" by Xori Ruscuv
Kaiu Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2006.12.01 19:25:00 - [32] BS > BC > Cruiser > destroyer > frigate tier 1/2 Battleships > tier 1/2 BC > t1/t2 cruiser ... etc That imo is how it was always supposed to be, how it should be and how it will stay. HACs arent supposed to be uber pwn all machines. Battleship is the king of the hill and again imo should beat anything else smaller 1 vs 1 Tech2 or otherwise. I gave up flying Deimos a long time ago, it feels like an AF to me, no specific role, dies to easy in majority of situations and other ships do its job a LOT better/cheaper/easier Also, sorry but ive never been in a BS and seen an Ishtar and said "omg **** its an ishtar run!" ____________________ MOGarmy
Nicocat Caldari New Age Solutions	Posted - 2006.12.01 19:36:00 - [33] Originally by: Kaiu BS > BC > Cruiser > destroyer > frigate tier 1/2 Battleships > tier 1/2 BC > t1/t2 cruiser ... etc That imo is how it was always supposed to be, how it should be and how it will stay. HACs arent supposed to be uber pwn all machines. Battleship is the king of the hill and again imo should beat anything else smaller 1 vs 1 Tech2 or otherwise. I gave up flying Deimos a long time ago, it feels like an AF to me, no specific role, dies to easy in majority of situations and other ships do its job a LOT better/cheaper/easier Also, sorry but ive never been in a BS and seen an Ishtar and said "omg ** its an ishtar run!" heh, I agree with the Ishtar sentiment. I **ed one over the head with a Nanophoon and it went running. The Eos, on the other hand... Anyway, to add to the discussion, I'm thrilled* that BCs actually work as intended now. Bigger, beefier, harder to kill, and easily able to perform their anti-cruiser work. I say death to the HACs, they're just crunchier cruisers, just like AFs are crunchier frigates (I fly AFs, not HACs, and only when in a wolfpack going to enemy space). Also, shameless plug for the Cyclone. Cyclone pwns j00! ---------------------------- Buying Sabres. EVEmail or convo me in game!
Bronson Hughes	Posted - 2006.12.01 19:38:00 - [34] Something to keep in mind: the 'C' in 'HAC' stands for Cruiser. A technologically advanced, skill-intensive, and very expensive cruiser yes, but still a cruiser. It's not designed to kill battleships, it's designed to kill cruisers. Battlecruisers are also designed to kill cruisers and are also very good at it. The only difference is that instead of relying on technology (i.e. skill requirements), they rely on additional bulk to give them more firepower and durability. Tech 2 ships/items are not better at doing everything than their tech 1 counterparts: they are usually highly specialized. In the case of HACs, they are the ultimate anti-Cruiser Cruiser. They aren't meant to fight Battlecruisers, they're meant to fit the Battlecruiser's anti-Cruiser role into a smaller ship. They certainly aren't meant to take on Battleships. The same logic applies roughly to Frigates, Destroyers, and Assault Ships: ASs are the ultimate anti-Frigate Frigate, not Cruiser killers. Would you take on a Tier 3 Cruiser in an Assault Ship and expect to do well?
Centurin Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2006.12.01 19:56:00 - [35] Edited by: Centurin on 01/12/2006 19:56:35 Originally by: Bronson Hughes Something to keep in mind: the 'C' in 'HAC' stands for Cruiser. A technologically advanced, skill-intensive, and very expensive cruiser yes, but still a cruiser. It's not designed to kill battleships, it's designed to kill cruisers. Battlecruisers are also designed to kill cruisers and are also very good at it. The only difference is that instead of relying on technology (i.e. skill requirements), they rely on additional bulk to give them more firepower and durability. Tech 2 ships/items are not better at doing everything than their tech 1 counterparts: they are usually highly specialized. In the case of HACs, they are the ultimate anti-Cruiser Cruiser. They aren't meant to fight Battlecruisers, they're meant to fit the Battlecruiser's anti-Cruiser role into a smaller ship. They certainly aren't meant to take on Battleships. The same logic applies roughly to Frigates, Destroyers, and Assault Ships: ASs are the ultimate anti-Frigate Frigate, not Cruiser killers. Would you take on a Tier 3 Cruiser in an Assault Ship and expect to do well? Actually T2 ARE better at doing everything that their t1 counterparts can do. Take Assault Frigs for example. Name one thing an Incursus does better than an Ishkur. hear crickets How about an Ishtar? Last I saw, an Ishtar was in everyway better than a Vexor. So I don't think your argument stands. Before Kali, in general an Assault Frig could take any T1 cruiser and a HAC could take any t1 BC. You spend months on skills for T2 ships, you should be rewarded for using them. Ever since my first day, I have NEVER complained about losing to a t2 ship. It just made me want to train for one all the more. Look, I'm not saying a BC should not have a chance at killing a hac. Before Kali, a BC could easily kill a HAC with the proper skills and fitting. But now, HACs are seriously hurting. NOS isn't helping either because it places smaller ships at a serious disadvantage. It just goes to show how the HP changes threw the entire game balance out the window. I KNEW this would happen. You can't just do a global HP increase and expect everything to pan out. ----------------------------------------------- "It's great playing Caldari Online, isn't it?" by Xori Ruscuv
Amiable Quinn Minmatar Lasleinur Production Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2006.12.02 00:39:00 - [36] Originally by: Centurin You spend months on skills for T2 ships, you should be rewarded for using them. Ever since my first day, I have NEVER complained about losing to a t2 ship. It just made me want to train for one all the more. So what is the problem exactly? A T2 cruiser can still easily take out a T1 cruiser. You skilled for a better ship and you got a better ship. What I find funny is the argument that "I trained for HAC's but now I can't kill 2 folks in a similar size ship at the same time!!!! CCCP please fix this!!!" This isn't WoW. Skill points and equipment shouldn't allow you to dominate players with lesser skillpoint. If you insist on taking on a foe twice your numbers with a similarly sized ship you had better: 1. Be, very, very good. 2. Hope they are very, very bad or 3. Expect to lose. The whole point of the patch was to make ships like HACS less of the solopwnmobiles they use to be. Mission accomplished, working as intended. The real problem is that folks got used to T2 being so much better than their T1 counterparts. HACS are still very, very nice ships, but don't expect to take on 2 BS's with 2 HACS and come out on top. It never should have been that way to begin with.
Bronson Hughes	Posted - 2006.12.02 01:15:00 - [37] Centurin: Note that I was commenting on what ships were designed to to, not what they were doing pre-Kali. I think that their current stats are more in line with what the devs had in mind. It certainly puts ships on relative par with their historical namesakes. Just remember that your HAC is really a tricked out cruiser and use it accordingly and you should be fine.
Reto The Last Resort	Posted - 2006.12.02 01:40:00 - [38] Edited by: Reto on 02/12/2006 01:41:57 bah screw this. forum killed my reply and i cant be arsed to write it again. Originally by: s4mp3r0r "Hey man, you're mom has a cruise missile".
CherniyVolk	Posted - 2006.12.02 04:18:00 - [39] Originally by: Amiable Quinn Originally by: Centurin You spend months on skills for T2 ships, you should be rewarded for using them. Ever since my first day, I have NEVER complained about losing to a t2 ship. It just made me want to train for one all the more. So what is the problem exactly? A T2 cruiser can still easily take out a T1 cruiser. You skilled for a better ship and you got a better ship. What I find funny is the argument that "I trained for HAC's but now I can't kill 2 folks in a similar size ship at the same time!!!! CCCP please fix this!!!" People, stop side stepping the issue. And stop beating the drum for your own benefit becuase you sitting on Minmatar Cruiser lvl 2 (a long ways from HAC) with only 1 million skill points! ALL TECH TWO SHIPS ARE SERIOUSLY NERFED! And NO! Tech Two Cruisers were NOT designed to just kill a T1 Cruiser. There is no more stupid rationale than to believe that. A T2 Cruiser SHOULD be able to destroy anything less than a highly skilled, well tanked Battleship. The T2 Battlecruisers were released, so HACs had competition... maybe people keep forgetting this, becuase few people could fly the T2 Battlecruisers! HACs were NOT the solopwnmobiles, they had steep competition! Very steep. EVE is going to return, to pre-Kali, this I'm sure. Becuase the ONLY people supporting this, ridiculous HP boost, are the Tech One newbies annoyed that their 500K skillpoint Brutix get's raped by a maxed out Assault Frigate pilot. In six months, when they are sitting on a bunch of level 5 skills... and realizing that there is no upward motion... they are going to be screaming for their new Enyo or Harpy to be useful!
Zar Dim Minmatar Anus Horriblis	Posted - 2006.12.02 07:53:00 - [40] Originally by: CherniyVolk EVE is going to return, to pre-Kali, this I'm sure. Becuase the ONLY people supporting this, ridiculous HP boost, are the Tech One newbies annoyed that their 500K skillpoint Brutix get's raped by a maxed out Assault Frigate pilot. In six months, when they are sitting on a bunch of level 5 skills... and realizing that there is no upward motion... they are going to be screaming for their new Enyo or Harpy to be useful! That's quite a statement I see the anger here, my new whatever lost to T1 ship, hence nerf 1 ships! Well.. what can I say - can I have your HAC?
Gamesguy Amarr Reunited O X I D E	Posted - 2006.12.02 08:04:00 - [41] Edited by: Gamesguy on 02/12/2006 08:05:47 Originally by: CherniyVolk Originally by: Amiable Quinn Originally by: Centurin You spend months on skills for T2 ships, you should be rewarded for using them. Ever since my first day, I have NEVER complained about losing to a t2 ship. It just made me want to train for one all the more. So what is the problem exactly? A T2 cruiser can still easily take out a T1 cruiser. You skilled for a better ship and you got a better ship. What I find funny is the argument that "I trained for HAC's but now I can't kill 2 folks in a similar size ship at the same time!!!! CCCP please fix this!!!" People, stop side stepping the issue. And stop beating the drum for your own benefit becuase you sitting on Minmatar Cruiser lvl 2 (a long ways from HAC) with only 1 million skill points! ALL TECH TWO SHIPS ARE SERIOUSLY NERFED! And NO! Tech Two Cruisers were NOT designed to just kill a T1 Cruiser. There is no more stupid rationale than to believe that. A T2 Cruiser SHOULD be able to destroy anything less than a highly skilled, well tanked Battleship. The T2 Battlecruisers were released, so HACs had competition... maybe people keep forgetting this, becuase few people could fly the T2 Battlecruisers! HACs were NOT the solopwnmobiles, they had steep competition! Very steep. EVE is going to return, to pre-Kali, this I'm sure. Becuase the ONLY people supporting this, ridiculous HP boost, are the Tech One newbies annoyed that their 500K skillpoint Brutix get's raped by a maxed out Assault Frigate pilot. In six months, when they are sitting on a bunch of level 5 skills... and realizing that there is no upward motion... they are going to be screaming for their new Enyo or Harpy to be useful! Is that supposed to be funny or something? An assault frig generally had zero chance against any cruiser pilot with a brain. Same went for hacs. The only hac that could possibly kill a decently fitted, non-sniper BS is the ishtar, and even then its more due to the fact that ecm was ridiculously overpowered. Post Kali, everything is as it should be.
Murukan Minmatar The Priory Shroud Of Darkness	Posted - 2006.12.02 08:26:00 - [42] even if the bcs are packing dual webs a vaga that lets a bc get him into web range is a noob and deserves to die Manlove by Zaphod Jones
Helganstandt Finis Lumen Muffins of Mayhem	Posted - 2006.12.02 09:58:00 - [43] I'm going to go with the "hopefully HAC prices will go down now". When HAC's get to reasonable prices, like 60 or 70 mil, I don't mind them getting a boost. But until then, I say good riddance and I'm glad they're nerfed in comparison. Finally those of us who don't have the time to make enough money to fly them have another option. CCP knew that HAC's had to suffer greatly in order to bring the price down, as no seeding of BPO's would ever do it properly. So making them not as useful was the best way to go around it. HAC base prices are what, 20 mil? In my opinion, they should operate like a ship that's worth 20 mil (or something that's slightly below a BC.) So I say go ahead and get a tier 2 battlecruiser, and use the HAC where it's best, in roaming cruiser gangs. 5 of them will still be a nasty force to be reckoned with. They're just not the oh so wonderful solo-pirate ships they used to be, again which is fine by me.
50freefly Caldari Purify	Posted - 2006.12.02 10:51:00 - [44] Oh get over it, your HACs are fine... You train for 2 months to get THE ADVANTAGE, not a solopwnmobile that can take out fleets. No, HACs were NOT meant to tear through gangs of t1 ships, they were meant to have a (Rather large) edge in comparison. Originally by: Eight Ace For reasons that have been lost in the mists of time all caldari ships are designed by two people. One does the left hand side and the other does the right. And they never meet.
Ebodhisatva	Posted - 2006.12.02 11:12:00 - [45] Well somehow i must agree with the OP... it took a long time to fly one of these boats and they are a little nerfed compared to bigger ships... but still, if you fly in a duo, ECMJammingBoat and a GANKaBoat you will hurt a lot of bs'es...
Amiable Quinn Minmatar Lasleinur Production Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2006.12.02 11:14:00 - [46] Originally by: CherniyVolk A T2 Cruiser SHOULD be able to destroy anything less than a highly skilled, well tanked Battleship. I don't think CCP agrees with you on this point.
Kunming Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.12.02 11:24:00 - [47] Alot of noob talking alot of bull** in this thread! The HP boost was not made to glorify T1 ships and battleships, it was to make combat last longer. And it does last longer.. in a horibbly boring NOS contest, or passive combat of who has more friends. Tux promised to break the blob and did exactly the opposite with the KALI changes, he's the clear winner of the "CLUELESS DEV OF THE YEAR" Award! Ships and equipment not worth using anymore: Any cap consuming weapon (especially blasters and lasers are useless) Any cap consuming tank Any cap consuming setup Anything smaller than a BC T2 combat ships (T2 utility ships like cov ops, recons etc still have their unique uses) Faction ships Quote: READ THIS NEXT PART CAREFULLY AS IT IS VERY IMPORTANT AND POSTING A REPLY WITHOUT READING IT MAY RESULT IN YOU LOOKING STUPID.**
Shayla Sh'inlux Gallente The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2006.12.02 11:32:00 - [48] Originally by: Kunming Alot of noob talking alot of bull** in this thread! The HP boost was not made to glorify T1 ships and battleships, it was to make combat last longer. And it does last longer.. in a horibbly boring NOS contest, or passive combat of who has more friends. Tux promised to break the blob and did exactly the opposite with the KALI changes, he's the clear winner of the "CLUELESS DEV OF THE YEAR" Award! Ships and equipment not worth using anymore: Any cap consuming weapon (especially blasters and lasers are useless) Any cap consuming tank Any cap consuming setup Anything smaller than a BC T2 combat ships (T2 utility ships like cov ops, recons etc still have their unique uses) Faction ships Pretty much my exact sentiment. Originally by:** "Cy4n1d3" You can't PVP with 4 mids.
Lillith Argent State War Academy	Posted - 2006.12.02 12:17:00 - [49] Looks like it's finally beginning to sink in that Revelations was supposed to nerf T2. What, you think that the accelerated newbie skills was an afterthough? It was part of a concerted effort to make newcomers to the game more welcome...and the T2 nerf/T1 upgrade was also part of that effort. So sorry to the "I've been playing for years with umpty-bajillion skillpoints and have a 0.0 alliance which can mass-produce T2, therefore I should win every fight I'm in" crowd but EVE isn't your private playground any more. (Not sorry. )
Galliana Foresta Fleeting Moments of Insanity The Imperial Order	Posted - 2006.12.02 12:32:00 - [50] Tbh HACs aren't in need of a damage increase. I had a 1vs1 in my Ishtar against a Mymidon last night - I was dual webbed at 4km and he wasn't even scratching my armour, and I didn't even bother to pop his drones. By the time he was into hull, I was still on 100% armour and 90% cap, without a cap injector. It's all about the skills, imho. Regards, Galliana. ---------------
Sir Bart Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.12.02 12:35:00 - [51] Originally by: CherniyVolk EVE is going to return, to pre-Kali, this I'm sure. 500 mill says it doesn't. Anyways, BS have always beat HACs. Depending on the ships / pilots involved, I think 1 BS vs 2 HACs is a more fair fight. By the sounds of your post I could beat 2 of you in HACs with my megathron prepatch. Some HAC pilots think they have a ship that's much stronger than a BS but it's mostly because they are ganking NPCers and not someone setup to slap HACs around. -Bart
Arte	Posted - 2006.12.02 13:08:00 - [52] Edited by: Arte on 02/12/2006 13:10:11 Originally by: CherniyVolk I think ALL T2 ships should get new damage bonuses... not just Gallente. I stated I think it's ridiculous for a Zealot to almost die to two newbs in T1 cruisers. The Vagabond desperatly needs a damage boost now, and yes, even the Ishtar. While I did "OK" on the test server with an Ishtar, *it still took too long to kill the bugger!* That last bit of the quote is the whole point of the HP boost and I think it was a move in the right direction. The problem is that it has magnified the importance of capacitor and therefore magnified the already seriously useful Nos. So I believe the issue isn't battles lasting long or even HACs being underpowered compared to other ships whereas before they may have been stronger, no problem with that here. I think it is the effect it has had on ships that need to last the battle through tanking, or even just operating their weapons systems. That leads it to be a mainly Amarr and Gallente problem. I don't believe that increasing damage for HACs or any other ship type is the solution. Reducing (not eliminating) their reliance on capacitor to function is the key. Whether that's another buff to blaster/hybrid/laser cap use, or a buff to recharge rates, or maybe even the removal of cap penalties for certain modules (MWD being the obvious one, seeing as the sig radius is a big enough penalty already) .... well those are all a matter of opinion. Any changes willll come. They may take time though and in the meantime some of us have to suffer a little. It's all swings and roundabouts.
Deathbarrage	Posted - 2006.12.02 13:19:00 - [53] I have to agree HAC's don't really take longer to kill their hp boost isn't significant and HAC's in general don't have a sustainable setup so they're relying on killing off the enemy rapidly, look at the deimos or zealot, which will run out of cap now before the enemy is dead, kind of an abbadon problem
Lebouse	Posted - 2006.12.03 16:45:00 - [54] There are two reasons why ships vs ships in this game are so fuxxed up: 1. CCP is going for the money. Hence the reason they insist on nerfing older players in favor of younger ones. Previous patches boosted frigs so that BS couldn't do much to them. This patch nerfs T2 everything and boosts T1 everything. Show me the money. 2. There are so many ship types and mods that it is virtually impossible to keep track of all the variables and CCP isn't keeping their proposed roles for ships in perspective. Now consider #1 again and it gets even worse. HACs were supposed to be the apex cruiser. Why then were command ships killing HACs? Because CCP didn't put the command ship role into proper perspective. Factor in that 1/3 or more of the ships roles can "overlap" and you have a recipe for getting stupid stats on ships when you consider all the variables. Everytime they do a "content" patch I understand that long time players are going to take it in the shorts. After the last patch I gave up on BS entirely (save for lowsec ratting) and went with frigs and cruisers. After this patch I will most likely not replace my HAC or recon but instead stick with destroyers and BCs. So all things being equal, your HAC is as good as is was relative to other equally skilled HAC pilots. MMO's call for a "devolution" based on where the money is. Older players will stay and complain, because they have an "investment"; so game programmers are not concerned about you. Younger players will leave if they feel the field is too broad. So the field must be narrowed in order for the game makers to profit. This is what they are concerned about.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.12.03 16:58:00 - [55] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 03/12/2006 17:00:46 Hacs are pretty useless now.. I think anyone who has been on the test server and tried them will realize that they no longer are king of the hill, and that they lose to the 40 mill battlecruisers even with their resists. Ok, useless might be a strong term, but I wouldnt use them for more than killing t1 cruisers... and why pay 250 mill for that? With current performance, hacs are worth less than the tier 2 battlecruisers. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
David Koresch Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.03 17:03:00 - [56] Originally by: Jin Entres P.S. Try killing the Myrmidon's drones before complaining how "overpowered" it is. That's kind of hard when you're a) Damped to hell so it takes 250 seconds to lock them and b) Out of cap due to 6 nos --------------------------------- Carebearin' in a hi-sec near you!
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.12.03 17:04:00 - [57] Originally by: David Koresch Originally by: Jin Entres P.S. Try killing the Myrmidon's drones before complaining how "overpowered" it is. That's kind of hard when you're a) Damped to hell so it takes 250 seconds to lock them and b) Out of cap due to 6 nos I whined about myrmidon for months. People said it was fine. Here we are. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
mallina Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.03 17:29:00 - [58] Originally by: Centurin And the Myrmidon is anything but overpowered. It has NO gun bonus and can only carry 5 heavies. Pop the drones and it's turns into a good looking hauler. you mean like Harbinger? it has no drone bonus and can only carry 5 meds. Tank with EANMs and NOS it for a bit and it cant touch you. the sheer DPS thrown out by FIVE heavy drones, with a 10% damage/hitpoint bonus per level is so much that you simply dont have time to kill the drones, and you better hope you're not fighting anyone with a clue cause they'll just scoop the drones as soon as you start shooting them. I thought it was fine with 100m3 drone bay,especially considering the bonus - it was designed to use MEDIUM drones well, not heavy, but i guess gallente get all the love again but seeing as its not going to be changed, use mediums or learn to redeploy drones instead of whining that you can -ONLY- fit 5 heavies. the only other BC a Myr may have trouble with is a Drake with HAMs. Otherwise, its yet another solopwnmobile :/ ----------- Turbulance
Fraile Cloudsinger	Posted - 2006.12.03 18:29:00 - [59] HACs and to some extend AFs are at this point quite useless for PvP(unless you want the rush of flying stuff worth millions), let it be small or large gang warfare. Ofcourse, the Tech II variants does indeed preform better than their Tech I counterpart, but its just marginally after Kali due to the hitpoint bonus. My brother and I decided to test the new changes the day after the kali release with two Tech I fitted Vexors. We went to a low sec system and found a single Deimos in a belt. The deimos pilot had played since 2003, the combined age of our characters is less than 6 months. Anyway, the Deimos pilot attacked my brother on sight, I warped in and we drained the cap of the Deimos empty. It reached 0% cap when my brother entered structure. The HAC popped and left a wreck of faction items. Pre Kali, the HAC would atleast popped my brother, possibly both. We engaged a Drake two days later with the same vexor setups, I think we managed to get its shields down to 80% before we were forced to warp out. Imo, HACs should be the ultimate sub Battleship damage dealers. Per today, one would rather buy a tier II Battlecruiser for DPS/tank or a Recon ship for Tech II godness.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.12.03 18:37:00 - [60] You know guys, while HAC's didnt get as much of an HP boost they did get an effective resistance to NOS. Basically. Pre-Kali it was just as easy to kill a ship that got the 25% HP bonus and 25% cap bonus with either damage or NOS as it is post Kali. There was no balance change between cap using or non cap using ships. [There was a slight balance change towards close range ships though] 25% more HP = 25% more HP to eat through, 25% more reps if its limited by HP and 25% longer time to kill with guns. 25% more cap = 25% more cap to nos them before they cap out, 25% more time they have to regen cap, 25% more cap to shoot guns, 25% more reps if you are limited by cap and not by HP. All in all, if you got the 25% HP boost and the 25% cap boost then you there were no balance changes. If you got more of an HP boost then there was an effective boost to NOS use in order to kill a ship, as the time to shoot a ship to death went up more than the time it took to cap out a ship. This basically only applies to BC's/cap ships though, because the other ships that got a HP boost had so little tank to begin with it didnt much matter, they will still be chewed up in seconds [though much better against their smaller counterparts] Now, if you HP boost was less than your Cap boost then opponents got a bonus to shooting you to death. Because the time it took to shoot you to death increased less than the time it took to cap you out. Now, HAC's might have been so easy to cap out it didnt really matter, which is probably the case for most battleships and many BCs. However, the changes do not actualy make HAC's easier to NOS to death they are just as hard to NOS to death as they were in the previous iteration, they are easier to shoot to death relative to the previous iteration.

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