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The Tragedy of Sana Clarret

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Alizebeth Amalath Sanctus Amarria 57	Posted - 2015.07.16 09:45:30 - [1] - Quote Sana Clarret was born on Mishi IV in YC89. The youngest of five brothers and sisters, she was at best described as a troubled girl. Not all people are perfect and some require some added help. After her third arrest for criminal behaviour, she was sentenced to a period of twenty years of slavery for rehabilitation under a proper holder. For most people in her position, this turns out well enough. Their holder will provide them with physical and spiritual care, a purpose and an environment where they will learn to be a valued member of society. Sana never got to her holder. Instead, she was sold on the market by the Civic Court. A capsuleer purchased her on the SCC Market and she found her way into the possession of a Butcher named Nauplius. The Butcher subjected her and many of her fellows to obscene and horrendous blooder rituals that have permanently scarred her psyche. She is one of the lucky ones, saved when an Imperial loyalist fleet destroyed the tower that she and other slaves were held on. Still, she is a shattered individual when she should be on her way to a rehabilitated and meaningful life. That CONCORD continues to permit the buying and selling of people to capsuleers on its SCC markets is a crime not just against scripture, but against humanity. ItGÇÖs not enough that the Amarr stop selling their slaves on the open market, any capsuleer commerce in slaves, no matter how they were acquired, must end.
Foley Aberas Jones Huogikku Corporation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 331	Posted - 2015.07.16 11:55:05 - [2] - Quote Ok i like the message and all.. But something tells me this is bait for Nauplius....
Sinjin Mokk Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly. 248	Posted - 2015.07.16 11:57:29 - [3] - Quote Hi Folks! My name is Sinjin and I'm an independent slaver for the Angel Cartel. Now I know some of you are already thinking what a horrible person I must be. And many of you would be right! But not because of slavery. Slavery as a concept started in Amarr. Tied deeply into Scripture and tradition, Amarr slavery has helped guide millions, if not billions of individuals to better lives and spiritual salvation. It is known that Amarr, through the Reclaiming, took many slaves from the Minmatar people. But let's hold off on the usual debates about Scripture or the Reclaiming. We live now in the Modern Age. The Empyrean Age. Slavery is commonplace in many parts of the Galaxy. Some toil in the Name of God, but some don't. When the Republic, State, Empire and Federation signed the Yulai accords and standardized trade throughout the Cluster, they ratified slavery. The decision to make slavery legal was left up to each government, but each government recognized that slavery was an institution, a part of the Human Experience. And while it may be technically illegal in some areas, the plight of the common worker in those places is often worse than the opportunities available for the modern slave. It is a sad fact that there are some who abuse the privilege. Again, this goes beyond the borders of Amarr. Statistically, the Empire has the most cases of slave abuse, because the Empire holds the highest slave population. This isn't the fault of slavery in and of itself, but the fault of the individual owner. The Empire has shown that tradition and regulation are not enough to prevent slave abuse. Even the threat of damnation hasn't prevented Holders from committing all manner of atrocities on the people they own. But luckily, these cases are becoming more and more rare. Outside the Empire, slave abuse happens, but again, it is the fault of particular, individual owners, not the institution. An owner who mistreats his property is not only vile, but inherently stupid. Amarr duty to spiritual uplifting aside, a smart owner gives his slaves every opportunity for betterment. Even those slaves who are criminals or prisoners of war can be re-trained to grow out of their violent tendencies and become dedicated, good people. It's a matter of economics. Poorly treated slaves are not good workers. They are not efficient, they are willful, they rebel, commit more crimes and are generally unpleasant to be around. Well, treated, modern slaves (such as you find in the Cartel or in places like Khanid) are happy, productive workers. Many are skilled technicians, scientists, students and some even go on to become full citizens. On rare occasions, some even become Capsuleers. The resale value alone should be the strongest proof of why slaves should be treated well. In the modern age, we have technology! Why subject a person to horrible coercive techniques, torture, VITOC and shock collars? TCMCs are a little more expensive initially, but pay for themselves in increased productivity. Why target Matari, when we have the whole of humanity to draw from? We all have enemies and "POWs" are commonplace. Is is better to let a baseliner die in the cold of space or rot in prison, or is it better to offer them a chance for a new life? This is Thea. She's a Caldari. She used to co-run a small business in Black Rise LoSec. I'd heard they were harboring Bloodraiders but when we destroyed their corporation, did I kill her? No. With a Cartel TCMC, her skills and talents are now put to much better use. She can continue her education, have a family, and be a productive member of the Salvation Angels. By treating her well, I was able to make a tidy sum of ISK for her resale and she was given a new life; a life she can be proud of. Just look at that smile! So slavery isn't just an Amarr thing. It isn't a Matari thing. It just is. Negligent owners should be taken to task for their actions, but you can't blame everyone for the actions of a few. If you're going to buy, please buy from a reputable dealer. Please consider TCMCs or other, more humane methods of control. Your Controlled Personnel (a better term, I think) will be more productive and happy and healthy. And so will you! Thank you for your time. Dark Amarr: Rumors!
Samira Kernher Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 1906	Posted - 2015.07.16 12:13:45 - [4] - Quote Mokk is the kind of person to whom a slave should never be sold. Anyone who would consider TCMCs humane doesn't know the meaning of the word. Scripture strictly defines who is permitted to own slaves: Holders and Holders only. To allow anyone else to engage in it is a crime against God and it leads to the extreme abuses we have seen by capsuleers over the last decade. "Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away." -- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
Constance Bonacieux Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque 5	Posted - 2015.07.16 12:29:25 - [5] - Quote Samira Kernher wrote: Scripture strictly defines who is permitted to own slaves: Holders and Holders only. To allow anyone else to engage in it is a crime against God and it leads to the extreme abuses we have seen by capsuleers over the last decade. So the fact that the Empire currently permits the selling of slaves means that it is committing a 'crime against God'? By saying this you seem to be setting yourself (and your interpretation of scripture) above the wisdom of the Empress and that of the Theology Council, who by allowing the selling of slaves on the open market certainly seem to approve of the practice.
Samira Kernher Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 1906	Posted - 2015.07.16 12:34:11 - [6] - Quote Scripture strictly defines who is permitted to own slaves. The Divine Rights of Holders are explicitly defined in Scripture. Scripture is the Word of God. I said nothing about the Empress or Theology Council. It is the Civic Court that believes its secularist agenda gives it the freedom to ignore God's Will and use SCC loopholes to sell slaves to commoners and foreigners. "Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away." -- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
Constance Bonacieux Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque 5	Posted - 2015.07.16 12:46:41 - [7] - Quote Samira Kernher wrote: Scripture strictly defines who is permitted to own slaves. The Divine Rights of Holders are explicitly defined in Scripture. Scripture is the Word of God. I said nothing about the Empress or Theology Council. It is the Civic Court that believes its secularist agenda gives it the freedom to ignore God's Will and use SCC loopholes to sell slaves to commoners and foreigners. I do not believe that either you or I are qualified to interpret Scripture. That I think is the province of the Theology Council. The Civic Court itself being: " The secular arm of the Amarrian justice system, the Civic Court has always acted in the shadow of the Theology Council." and thus its actions (in allowing the sale of slaves) would appear to be in accordance with the views of the Council.
Lunarisse Aspenstar Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque 387	Posted - 2015.07.16 12:47:58 - [8] - Quote Samira Kernher wrote: Scripture strictly defines who is permitted to own slaves. The Divine Rights of Holders are explicitly defined in Scripture. Scripture is the Word of God. I said nothing about the Empress or Theology Council. It is the Civic Court that believes its secularist agenda gives it the freedom to ignore God's Will and use SCC loopholes to sell slaves to commoners and foreigners. I second this point. To be clear, I agree - and is the position of SFRIM - that the SCC market in slaves to any capsuleer with a flight license should be abolished. there is a petition respectfully requesting that the appropriate authorities in the Empire address this loophole. I encourage all to find and sign it. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=410932
Wendrika Hydreiga 440	Posted - 2015.07.16 12:52:28 - [9] - Quote Slavery is bad. Full stop.
Akrasjel Lanate Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance 1791	Posted - 2015.07.16 12:59:52 - [10] - Quote Slavery has existed, in one form or another, throughout the whole of human history. Akrasjel Lanate Member of Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance Citizen of Solitude
Goldfinch House Rkard 139	Posted - 2015.07.16 13:11:51 - [11] - Quote Sinjin we are not sure how to respond to your post. A part of our life was spent with Angels, as a slave. We were harvested from a Capsuleer ship. We would not expect you to live through our experience without considerable scars on your personality. We were sexualized, probably at an age too early for us. We lived in fear. What we earned was not ours. We lost some function in a hand because it was cut and not cared for. What we ate was often not what people should eat. We also have some good memories with those whom you may call "Salvies". To say that all Angel slavers are kind and gentle masters is grossly untrue. Sinjin your stereotype attempts to disguise how truly unregulated your slave market is. It is not to say that Angels don't have rules.. to the contrary our experience was that Angels have a plethora of rules and forbiddances. But without Scripture, without the Fear of God, without Surrender, without Emperor, and without theology there is no discipline. Angels are godless pirates, and in our experience pirates want to do whatever they can get away with. Pirates never have to face absolution. To say that all Amarr Holders follow the letter of Scripture would also be untrue. The pointless and secular abuse of slaves is a sickness which must be subjected to Fire and Cleansing Light. Only Holders must have slaves. God wills it so. Holders are held to precise Faith based standards. The Reclaiming is a profound act of compassion. veiled and bound my origin story (on R109)
Anyanka Funk Jacklight Corporation 135	Posted - 2015.07.16 13:23:16 - [12] - Quote Sounds like Sana Clarret needs to harden the f up.
Odelya d'Hanguest Order of St. Severian 635	Posted - 2015.07.16 13:35:39 - [13] - Quote In Light's Name Samira Kernher wrote: Mokk is the kind of person to whom a slave should never be sold. Anyone who would consider TCMCs humane doesn't know the meaning of the word. Scripture strictly defines who is permitted to own slaves: Holders and Holders only. To allow anyone else to engage in it is a crime against God and it leads to the extreme abuses we have seen by capsuleers over the last decade. Samira, you're not even half a decadeGÇönot to speak about generationsGÇöaway from being a slave yourself and now you belittle others with your unsolicited opinions. One often hears the reasoning that nobody is more entitled to talk about the issue of slavery than slaves and former slaves themselves, but do you also trust the cat to keep the cream? What would your grandfather say if he could see you now? Would heGÇösitting in his cabin smoking Crystal EggGÇöhave dreamed of you lecturing free-born and holders? Would he have dared to lecture his holder because he believed that through his interpretation of the Scriptures the Lord's voice resonated? God has assigned places for each in society, all one has to do is to find it. I advise you to fear the Lord and organise your affairs! Odelya, Begum etc. pp.
Samira Kernher Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 1909	Posted - 2015.07.16 13:50:39 - [14] - Quote Constance Bonacieux wrote: I do not believe that either you or I are qualified to interpret Scripture. It's not an intepretation, it's a fact. It is part of the established rights of Holders. "Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away." -- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
Lord Kailethre Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque 162	Posted - 2015.07.16 13:59:32 - [15] - Quote Constance Bonacieux wrote: I do not believe that either you or I are qualified to interpret Scripture. That I think is the province of the Theology Council. And the laws they have enacted in the Empire have forbidden all but Holders to claim slaves, for the express purpose of guiding them upon the path of God. That slaves are allowed to be bought and sold on free markets is a bureaucratic oversight of the most horrific kind.
Pieter Tuulinen Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade 5298	Posted - 2015.07.16 15:12:37 - [16] - Quote Akrasjel Lanate wrote: Slavery has existed, in one form or another, throughout the whole of human history. Not in Caldari space. For us it has NOT existed throughout the whole of our history - except as a loan word from the Gallente. "Caldari Prime burns, those left behind are choking on the dust and ash that fills the air, and you demand our surrender? Is this a joke? You have only hardened our resolve. Every drop of blood you have taken from us will be repaid -- with interest."
Pieter Tuulinen Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade 5298	Posted - 2015.07.16 15:15:27 - [17] - Quote Samira Kernher wrote: Anyone who would consider TCMCs humane doesn't know the meaning of the word. TCMCs were only designed to be used on habitual re-offenders suffering from a mental sickness that makes them impossible to reform through other methods, so that they wouldn't have to be segregated and guarded for the entirety of their lives. With a TCMC fitted they can live useful and contributing lives as part of society - without harming anyone else. "Caldari Prime burns, those left behind are choking on the dust and ash that fills the air, and you demand our surrender? Is this a joke? You have only hardened our resolve. Every drop of blood you have taken from us will be repaid -- with interest."
botros Achura-Waschi Exchange Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group 2	Posted - 2015.07.16 19:21:30 - [18] - Quote Pieter Tuulinen wrote: Samira Kernher wrote: Anyone who would consider TCMCs humane doesn't know the meaning of the word. TCMCs were only designed to be used on habitual re-offenders suffering from a mental sickness that makes them impossible to reform through other methods, so that they wouldn't have to be segregated and guarded for the entirety of their lives. With a TCMC fitted they can live useful and contributing lives as part of society - without harming anyone else. While that is one good use, TCMCs were originally designed to help those in a catatonic state regain consciousness. They were intended for a very humane purpose. Their versatility is in part responsible for their current reputation. Perhaps pilot Kernher meant that, in her opinon, the use of TCMCs as a slave control device isn't humane?
Alizebeth Amalath Sanctus Amarria 63	Posted - 2015.07.16 19:41:24 - [19] - Quote Constance Bonacieux wrote: Samira Kernher wrote: Scripture strictly defines who is permitted to own slaves. The Divine Rights of Holders are explicitly defined in Scripture. Scripture is the Word of God. I said nothing about the Empress or Theology Council. It is the Civic Court that believes its secularist agenda gives it the freedom to ignore God's Will and use SCC loopholes to sell slaves to commoners and foreigners. I do not believe that either you or I are qualified to interpret Scripture. That I think is the province of the Theology Council. The Civic Court itself being: " The secular arm of the Amarrian justice system, the Civic Court has always acted in the shadow of the Theology Council." and thus its actions (in allowing the sale of slaves) would appear to be in accordance with the views of the Council. Samira is correct in her statement that Holders are the only class permitted by Scripture to own slaves.
Lyn Farel Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque 1174	Posted - 2015.07.16 20:53:13 - [20] - Quote It is one thing to point out at something that feels not right, to create grievances and petitions addressed properly to the Throne for what seems to be legitimate concerns, but calling outright an arm of the TC, the Civic Court, for heresy (going against God's Will) is something entirely different already. I feel that is what Ms Bonacieux was trying to tell, right ...?
Samira Kernher Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 1911	Posted - 2015.07.16 21:02:09 - [21] - Quote Odelya d'Hanguest wrote: In Light's Name Samira Kernher wrote: Mokk is the kind of person to whom a slave should never be sold. Anyone who would consider TCMCs humane doesn't know the meaning of the word. Scripture strictly defines who is permitted to own slaves: Holders and Holders only. To allow anyone else to engage in it is a crime against God and it leads to the extreme abuses we have seen by capsuleers over the last decade. Samira, you're not even half a decadeGÇönot to speak about generationsGÇöaway from being a slave yourself and now you belittle others with your unsolicited opinions. One often hears the reasoning that nobody is more entitled to talk about the issue of slavery than slaves and former slaves themselves, but do you also trust the cat to keep the cream? What would your grandfather say if he could see you now? Would heGÇösitting in his cabin smoking Crystal EggGÇöhave dreamed of you lecturing free-born and holders? Would he have dared to lecture his holder because he believed that through his interpretation of the Scriptures the Lord's voice resonated? God has assigned places for each in society, all one has to do is to find it. I advise you to fear the Lord and organise your affairs! Odelya, Begum etc. pp. For good or ill, my place is as a capsuleer in service of God and Amarr, and it is my duty to represent the principles we are entrusted by God to hold. Amarr was founded to cultivate the spirit of man. Should the lords to whom I serve instruct me to still my voice, I shall. But I take no lessons on place from the likes of unborn from faithless nations. And they stood before Him, bathed in His light. Yet their eyes were blind, Their hearts rebellious, And their minds refused the Lord. Darkness descended upon them, Spreading inside their minds, And the flames of the Lord died within them. - Gheinok 1:3 "Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away." -- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
Sinjin Mokk Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly. 254	Posted - 2015.07.16 21:06:27 - [22] - Quote Alizebeth Amalath wrote: Samira is correct in her statement that Holders are the only class permitted by Scripture to own slaves. Then why is it that we have different standards in Khanid? Why are Khanid allowed to keep "9thGen" Matari? Why are we allowed to buy and sell freely from any source? Why do the current trade agreements allow ANY Capsuleer in Amarr and Khanid space the right to purchase and sell "Controlled Personnel?" Why? Because the Empress and the Theology Council and the Privy Council and King Khanid and Bloody CONCORD said it was ok. Now if you're saying that they all made a mistake and your way is better and more in-line with Scripture than their way... And seriously everyone. TCMCs are not the "True Slave" implants that you see among Sansha's zombies. These are a lot more subtle and afford a great deal of free will for the individual. They are certainly more humane than the use of force, coercion and especially VITOC. To Goldfinch: I am deeply saddened to hear your story. As I previously said, abuses do still continue, even among Angel organizations. Driving the practice further underground with no quality control is not the answer. Even without the spiritual component, owning "Controlled Personnel" should never be done by amateurs or the inherently abusive. Dark Amarr: Rumors!
Lyn Farel Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque 1177	Posted - 2015.07.16 21:16:25 - [23] - Quote True Slave implants are actually thousands time cleaner, subtler and advanced than TCMCs, that appear almost stone-age in comparison. True Slave implants do not trump the senses of their bearer, for that TCMCs can only lie and alter perception to lead to an expected result. True Slave implants make the bearer remain completely clear of any sense alteration, but manage to sweep his or her loyalty completely through a direct action, and currently badly understood.
Samira Kernher Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 1911	Posted - 2015.07.16 21:20:11 - [24] - Quote Sinjin Mokk wrote: Then why is it that we have different standards in Khanid? Why are Khanid allowed to keep "9thGen" Matari? Why are we allowed to buy and sell freely from any source? There is only one Empire of God. Quote: Why do the current trade agreements allow ANY Capsuleer in Amarr and Khanid space the right to purchase and sell "Controlled Personnel?" Why? Because the Empress and the Theology Council and the Privy Council and King Khanid and Bloody CONCORD said it was ok. Her Imperial Majesty has not said it. The Theology Council and the Privy Council have not said it. The laws of the Theology Council are defined in Scripture, and Scripture defines ownership of slaves as a right exclusive to Holders. The opinions of others are irrelevant. The fact is that the ownership of slaves by anyone other than Holders is illegal in Amarr, as written in Scriptural law. The ownership of slaves by anyone outside of Amarr is illegal by CONCORD law. Current liberal free trade policies do not make non-Holder ownership legal, they only provide loopholes that are exploited by spiritually-deficient fortune-seekers. Ownership by anyone that is not a Holder is a crime against God, period. Quote: They are certainly more humane than the use of force, coercion and especially VITOC. Give me the whip, not the chip. Inject me, don't implant me. "Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away." -- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
Aria Jenneth Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade 1158	Posted - 2015.07.16 21:45:10 - [25] - Quote Samira Kernher wrote: Give me the whip, not the chip. Inject me, don't implant me. Um. Samira? I usually stay out of discussions like this one, but.... As catchy slogans go, this one seems a little ... off? ... Actually, it makes my skin crawl like it's going to slither off and hide under my couch and refuse to come out for a week. Maybe I'm the only one who gets that feeling, but ... maybe not?
Alizebeth Amalath Sanctus Amarria 63	Posted - 2015.07.16 21:54:56 - [26] - Quote I am sure the sentiment is in the right place, the wording is a little offputting. A wise holder will find a way to treat and educate his slaves to bring them to the path of righteousness with the least extreme measures possible. Simply because the Theology Council has approved the use of TCMCs or Vitoc does not mean that they are endorsed.
Odelya d'Hanguest Order of St. Severian 645	Posted - 2015.07.16 22:15:44 - [27] - Quote In Light's Name Samira Kernher wrote: For good or ill, my place is as a capsuleer in service of God and Amarr, and it is my duty to represent the principles we are entrusted by God to hold. Amarr was founded to cultivate the spirit of man. Should the lords to whom I serve instruct me to still my voice, I shall. But I take no lessons on place from the likes of unborn from faithless nations. Woe betide the age where the apes wear the robes of bishops and servitude is confused with pride... Amarr was founded to cultivate the spirit of man. Man such as you. In service of God and Amarr the only words that should come from your mouth when talking to your betters are GÇ£Yes, Sir!GÇ¥ and GÇ£Yes, MaGÇÖam!GÇ¥ My ancestors fought alongside the first emperors of Amarr. Show some respect to the blood of the martyrs that fought and died for your salvation. Show some gratitude that a d'Hanguest humbles herself and speaks to you. Odelya d'Hanguest, Begum etc. pp.
Lyn Farel Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque 1179	Posted - 2015.07.16 22:20:19 - [28] - Quote Samira Kernher wrote: The fact is that the ownership of slaves by anyone other than Holders is illegal in Amarr, as written in Scriptural law. The ownership of slaves by anyone outside of Amarr is illegal by CONCORD law. Current liberal free trade policies do not make non-Holder ownership legal, they only provide loopholes that are exploited by spiritually-deficient fortune-seekers. Ownership by anyone that is not a Holder is a crime against God, period. Ms Kernher, CONCORD law does not make illegal slave trading as far as I am aware. It suffice to take a look at what the SCC allows to trade everywhere in New Eden. That business is usually made illegal by the empires themselves, and that includes the Amarr that for now also strictly forbids slave taking outside of Amarr borders, on foreign citizens. I would also urge you to thread more carefully when accusing entities like the Civic Court of crimes against God. If you truly believe that we all are souless capsuleers, then we are even less than slaves, according to your own words. Slaves do not accuse the Civic Court and other imperial institutions related to the TC of crimes against God. Especially if you are to drag our members into the mud you sling all around you. Thank you.
Aldrith Shutaq PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 947	Posted - 2015.07.16 22:39:10 - [29] - Quote Odelya d'Hanguest wrote: Woe betide the age where apes wear the robes of bishops and servitude is confused with pride... Woe betide cowards who would follow greater cowards. Lyn Farel wrote: Ms Kernher, CONCORD law does not make slave trading illegal as far as I am aware. It suffice to take a look at what the SCC allows to trade everywhere in New Eden. That business is usually made illegal by the empires themselves, and that includes the Amarr that for now also strictly forbids slave taking outside of Amarr borders, on foreign citizens. I would also urge you to thread more carefully when accusing entities like the Civic Court of crimes against God. If you truly believe that we all are souless capsuleers, then we are even less than slaves, according to your own words. Slaves do not accuse the Civic Court and other imperial institutions related to the TC of crimes against God. Especially if you are to drag our members into the mud you sling all around you. Thank you. Farel, either make a productive point or butt out. For one who would like to see reform in the Empire you certainly do have a bad habit of saying stupid things that do nothing but divert and derail decent movements to do some good in the world.
Anslo Scope Works 32025	Posted - 2015.07.16 22:44:21 - [30] - Quote I'd say she's making more sense and progress than your broken record. [center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Lyn Farel Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque 1182	Posted - 2015.07.16 22:48:46 - [31] - Quote Shutaq, For your information, I also signed that petition. That point is an irrelevant red-herring, with all due respect. Your corporation continuously spends its time lecturing and humiliating its allies for no reason. For once, I intend to stand firm against such bullying, especially when said bullying comes out from heretic mouths.
Aldrith Shutaq PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 947	Posted - 2015.07.16 22:49:17 - [32] - Quote Anslo wrote: I'd say she's making more sense and progress than your broken record. You don't even know what she said, do you? And Farel, please just stop. The only people who can actually call someone a heretic is the Theology Council, and that is what this is about. The Theology Council is the higher court, and we are petitioning it and the throne to make this an issue. It's called activism, and a bit of rabble rousing is included in that. You are right, it's not something we do much in the Empire, but there is a strong enough case here to make, and we are going to make it. If you really cannot see what is being done here then I'd be glad to explain further in private.
Anslo Scope Works 32027	Posted - 2015.07.16 22:54:07 - [33] - Quote She points out a fact. You go ad hominem. Not very becoming of an officer and servant of Amarr. What was that rule again about behavior in public? [center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Pieter Tuulinen Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade 5309	Posted - 2015.07.16 22:55:34 - [34] - Quote Odelya d'Hanguest wrote: In Light's Name Samira Kernher wrote: For good or ill, my place is as a capsuleer in service of God and Amarr, and it is my duty to represent the principles we are entrusted by God to hold. Amarr was founded to cultivate the spirit of man. Should the lords to whom I serve instruct me to still my voice, I shall. But I take no lessons on place from the likes of unborn from faithless nations. Woe betide the age where apes wear the robes of bishops and servitude is confused with pride... Amarr was founded to cultivate the spirit of man. Man such as you. In service of God and Amarr the only words that should come out of your mouth when talking to your betters are GÇ£Yes, Sir!GÇ¥ and GÇ£Yes, MaGÇÖam!GÇ¥ My ancestors fought alongside the first emperors of Amarr. Give some respect to the blood of the martyrs that died for your salvation. Show some gratitude that a d'Hanguest humbles herself and speaks to you. Odelya d'Hanguest, Begum etc. pp. Sorry, aren't you a heretic now or something? "Caldari Prime burns, those left behind are choking on the dust and ash that fills the air, and you demand our surrender? Is this a joke? You have only hardened our resolve. Every drop of blood you have taken from us will be repaid -- with interest."
Lyn Farel Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque 1185	Posted - 2015.07.16 22:58:20 - [35] - Quote Aldrith Shutaq wrote: Anslo wrote: I'd say she's making more sense and progress than your broken record. You don't even know what she said, do you? And Farel, please just stop. The only people who can actually call someone a heretic is the Theology Council, and that is what this is about. The Theology Council is the higher court, and we are petitioning it and the throne to make this an issue. It's called activism, and a bit of rabble rousing is included in that. You are right, it's not something we do much in the Empire, but there is a strong enough case here to make, and we are going to make it. If you really cannot see what is being done here then I'd be glad to explain further in private. This confuses me sir... Why are you PIE all continuously issuing statements of heresy for X or Y reasons ? Don't you keep a list, actually, for that matter... ? That makes absolutely no sense to me.
Aldrith Shutaq PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 948	Posted - 2015.07.16 23:04:35 - [36] - Quote Because the Theology Council does not bother to pick out every single heretic capsuleer out there and stamp their forehead with the word 'heretic', so we make due. Why do you keep on making issues about Imperial institutions and the way they should be run about PIE and they way it is run? That makes absolutely no sense to me.
Alizebeth Amalath Sanctus Amarria 64	Posted - 2015.07.16 23:07:20 - [37] - Quote Please take this elsewhere.
Foley Aberas Jones Huogikku Corporation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 331	Posted - 2015.07.16 23:26:41 - [38] - Quote Yo whats going on in this thr- Nope
Sinjin Mokk Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly. 259	Posted - 2015.07.17 02:04:00 - [39] - Quote Samira Kernher wrote: Give me the whip, not the chip. Inject me, don't implant me. As you wish... Alizebeth Amalath wrote: I am sure the sentiment is in the right place, the wording is a little offputting. A wise holder will find a way to treat and educate his slaves to bring them to the path of righteousness with the least extreme measures possible. Simply because the Theology Council has approved the use of TCMCs or Vitoc does not mean that they are endorsed. YES IT DOES! That is EXACTLY what it means! Look: endorse [en-dawrs] verb (used with object), endorsed, endorsing. 1. to approve, support, or sustain: Lyn Farel wrote: Samira Kernher wrote: The fact is that the ownership of slaves by anyone other than Holders is illegal in Amarr, as written in Scriptural law. The ownership of slaves by anyone outside of Amarr is illegal by CONCORD law. Current liberal free trade policies do not make non-Holder ownership legal, they only provide loopholes that are exploited by spiritually-deficient fortune-seekers. Ownership by anyone that is not a Holder is a crime against God, period. Ms Kernher, CONCORD law does not make slave trading illegal as far as I am aware. It suffice to take a look at what the SCC allows to trade everywhere in New Eden. That business is usually made illegal by the empires themselves, and that includes the Amarr that for now also strictly forbids slave taking outside of Amarr borders, on foreign citizens. I would also urge you to thread more carefully when accusing entities like the Civic Court of crimes against God. If you truly believe that we all are souless capsuleers, then we are even less than slaves, according to your own words. Slaves do not accuse the Civic Court and other imperial institutions related to the TC of crimes against God. Especially if you are to drag our members into the mud you sling all around you. Thank you. Agreed, Caldari law makes it illegal in the State. Gallente law, the Federation, Matari law, the Republic. CONCORD and all four governments have no authority in the great expanses outside their borders. And again, laws within Khanid are vastly different than the rest of the Empire. Khanid is a sovereign state that is joined with the Empire, not a s simple House within it like the Tash-Murkons. Khanid law and Amarr law make it legal for non-Holders to own slaves within the Empire, not CONCORD. So if some of you have a problem with Amarr law, maybe you need to re-evaluate your loyalty. Dark Amarr: Rumors!
Alizebeth Amalath Sanctus Amarria 67	Posted - 2015.07.17 02:16:37 - [40] - Quote Amarr law does not allow for non-holders to own slaves.
Sinjin Mokk Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly. 262	Posted - 2015.07.17 02:36:01 - [41] - Quote Alizebeth Amalath wrote: Amarr law does not allow for non-holders to own slaves. You keep telling yourself that and I'll keep legally selling them to non-Holders in Amarr. Dark Amarr: Rumors!
Goldfinch House Rkard 145	Posted - 2015.07.17 03:44:05 - [42] - Quote We feel like we have to interject on the typical argumentum ad absurdum regarding what is Theological law and what it means to be a CONCORD signitory. If Amarr Empire is to be a "good" Cluster Citizen, it has to follow some secular rules out of necessity for its survival. This does not mean Theological law is cast out to the wind, or forgotten. Theological law forbids anyone but Holders from having slaves. This is God's Law, and any Holder who violates it in an ideal system would be stripped of rank and privilege, partially or whole. Amarr Theology has many other imperatives, such as the Reclaiming. This does not mean that all of the sudden Amarr Empire is going to spread out and start violating DED rules of engagement and Yulai Convention laws for prisoners of war to satisfy a "Theologically sound" goal of Reclaiming the Cluster. In the same way, a Theological law against slave ownership by commoners does not presently mean that Amarr Empire will suddenly quash the free market because doing so would have grave implications for its CONCORD membership. There is no hypocrisy here. Mixing secular requirements for CONCORD membership with Theology is a specious argument. Name us one culture which hasn't had to sacrifice some of its core ideals at the Yulai Convention. We admire for Lt. Kernher's zeal. We support her assertion that Amarr Theology has been compromised too far by Amarr's membership in CONCORD. veiled and bound my origin story (on R109)
Elmund Egivand Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 519	Posted - 2015.07.17 05:24:10 - [43] - Quote Since when do Angels give a damn about laws? I thought their motto is: "Never do legally what can be done illegally"? Evergreen ~ Evergreen ~ Evergreen ~ EVERGREEN ~ Evergreen ~ Evergreen ~Evergreen ~ Family
Lyn Farel Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque 1188	Posted - 2015.07.17 08:05:27 - [44] - Quote Thank you Ms Rkard, it is explained very elegantly. Aldrith Shutaq wrote: Because the Theology Council does not bother to pick out every single heretic capsuleer out there and stamp their forehead with the word 'heretic', so we make due. Why do you keep on making issues about Imperial institutions and the way they should be run about PIE and they way it is run? That makes absolutely no sense to me. So, you are telling me that only the TC can brand someone as such, but none of us except PIE Inc. ?
Leopold Caine Stillwater Corporation 571	Posted - 2015.07.17 08:22:02 - [45] - Quote Elmund Egivand wrote: Since when do Angels give a damn about laws? I thought their motto is: "Never do legally what can be done illegally"? You seem to be taking our involvement in discussion regarding CONCORD legislative rather... pejoratively, if I may say so. We have no respect for CONCORD laws, but if you think we're a disorganized rabble without a legislative of our own... well, keep on thinking that, actually; it humours me greatly. If you think we have public sales booths in Dam Torsad where you can buy slaves legally... well, you'd only be wrong about the 'public' and 'legally' parts, technically. Also, don't try to teach us about our mottos. Leopold Caine, Domination Malakim Angels are never far... Stillwater Corporation Recruitment Open - Angel Cartel Bloc
Odelya d'Hanguest Order of St. Severian 656	Posted - 2015.07.17 08:35:19 - [46] - Quote In Light's Name Goldfinch wrote: We feel like we have to interject on the typical argumentum ad absurdum regarding what is Theological law and what it means to be a CONCORD signitory. If Amarr Empire is to be a "good" Cluster Citizen, it has to follow some secular rules out of necessity for its survival. This does not mean Theological law is cast out to the wind, or forgotten. [...] Ms Rkard The notion that there is a GÇ£sacred lawGÇ¥ (or theological law, as you call it) which is distinguishable from a GÇ£profane lawGÇ¥ (or secular rules, as you call them) comes with complications. It mightGÇöfor historical reasosnGÇöbe true for an entity such as the Gallente Federation, but not for Amarr (ideally speaking). But if we were to assume that there are such separable spheres of GÇ£sacred lawsGÇ¥ and GÇ£secular rules,GÇ¥ ideally there would be a hierarchyGÇöin the strictest sense of the wordGÇöwhich places divine law on top of all. A holder who promulgates that a special tax should be given to the orphans and widows, might not do so if it contradicts the GÇ£sacred laws.GÇ¥ Actually, the separation of the two spheres was an invention of the Theology Council to attack His Majesty King Khanid, when they accused him of proclaiming the primacy of manGÇÖs law over GodGÇÖs law. While superficially attacking His Majesty, their argumentation laid the groundwork for furthering the distortion of the Scriptures. And this is one reason why you will find many contradictions in the EmpireGÇösuch as a CONCORD sanctioned reclaiming, slaves on markets although forbidden to be owned by non-holders, an abolitionist on the throne etc.GÇöthat you will not encounter in the Kingdom, where there is no Theology Council and no separation between the laws of man and God, just as it always has been and always will be right and just. Odelya dGÇÖHanguest, Begum etc. pp.
Samira Kernher Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 1926	Posted - 2015.07.17 09:04:14 - [47] - Quote Odelya d'Hanguest wrote: Woe betide the age where apes wear the robes of bishops and servitude is confused with pride... Amarr was founded to cultivate the spirit of man. Man such as you. In service of God and Amarr the only words that should come out of your mouth when talking to your betters are GÇ£Yes, Sir!GÇ¥ and GÇ£Yes, MaGÇÖam!GÇ¥ Those would be my words, if I were speaking to my betters. Quote: My ancestors fought alongside the first emperors of Amarr. Give some respect to the blood of the martyrs that died for your salvation. Show some gratitude that a d'Hanguest humbles herself and speaks to you. My ancestors also once served God, as did all people. The line ceases being worthy of respect, however, when they abandon God and Amarr. Lyn Farel wrote: Ms Kernher, CONCORD law does not make slave trading illegal as far as I am aware. It suffice to take a look at what the SCC allows to trade everywhere in New Eden. That business is usually made illegal by the empires themselves, and that includes the Amarr that for now also strictly forbids slave taking outside of Amarr borders, on foreign citizens. CONCORD makes it illegal. It also makes the drug trade illegal, and that also occurs on the SCC. The SCC is an unregulated free market, it allows business in things that are otherwise illegal in the name of "free trade". The fact that the SCC allows the trade of controlled items doesn't mean that those items are not illegal, it just means that the SCC is an atrocious organization that needs to be curtailed. Sinjin Mokk wrote: Amarr law make it legal for non-Holders to own slaves within the Empire You know nothing about Amarr law. Odelya d'Hanguest wrote: ... that you will not encounter in the Kingdom, where there is no Theology Council and no separation between the laws of man and God, just as it always has been and always will be right and just. There is no separation in Amarr. Here it is only God's Law. There is no separation in the Kingdom. There it is only man's law. "Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away." -- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
Odelya d'Hanguest Order of St. Severian 660	Posted - 2015.07.17 10:07:20 - [48] - Quote Samira Kernher wrote: My ancestors also once served God, as did all people. The line ceases being worthy of respect, however, when they abandon God and Amarr. See, you equate the service the servant does to his commander (polishing the commanderGÇÖs boots before battle) with the service the commander does himself (leading into battle). You serve yourself, not God. One should address you as a GÇ£honorary Gallente.GÇ¥ You fit into each and every stereotype: a stubborn individualist that has problems with authority, prone to self-entitlement, arrogance and an undeserved feeling of superiority, making fiery speeches about each and everything, yet not possessing a single thought that did not originate somewhere else... Your opinions are as little expressions of faith, as colour is a representative of sound. Yet, we have to see, it is futile to explain a thought to someone to whom a hint is not enough. Au revoir, Mademoiselle Kernher! Odelya dGÇÖHanguest, Begum etc. pp.
Samira Kernher Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 1927	Posted - 2015.07.17 10:20:47 - [49] - Quote Odelya d'Hanguest wrote: You serve yourself, not God. Kingdomers would know best, wouldn't they? Quote: One should address you as a GÇ£honorary Gallente.GÇ¥ You fit into each and every stereotype: a stubborn individualist that has problems with authority, prone to self-entitlement, arrogance and an undeserved feeling of superiority, making fiery speeches about each and everything, yet not possessing a single thought that did not originate somewhere else... People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, Ms. "Sensitive Girl". "Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away." -- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
Elmund Egivand Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 519	Posted - 2015.07.17 11:42:04 - [50] - Quote Samira Kernher wrote: People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, Ms. "Sensitive Girl". This is the last I'll say to you here, Ms. d'Hanguest. You are derailing the purpose of this thread. What is the purpose of this thread? Evergreen ~ Evergreen ~ Evergreen ~ EVERGREEN ~ Evergreen ~ Evergreen ~Evergreen ~ Family
Odelya d'Hanguest Order of St. Severian 670	Posted - 2015.07.17 13:04:03 - [51] - Quote Samira Kernher wrote: People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, Ms. "Sensitive Girl" In LightGÇÖs Name Just because the truth hurts in your case, it does not in mine. Things of which I am not proud of happened to me in the past. I took responsibility for them. When will you take responsibility and stop hiding? Odelya dGÇÖHanguest, Begum etc.
Aria Jenneth Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade 1164	Posted - 2015.07.17 13:06:04 - [52] - Quote Elmund Egivand wrote: What is the purpose of this thread? Going by the OP, it's to illuminate the horrors of an unregulated slave market.
Kalaratiri Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade 665	Posted - 2015.07.17 13:08:56 - [53] - Quote I would like to take a moment to assure readers that the views of the Stillwater corporation and its members do not represent the views of the wider Angel Cartel. Carry on darlings! She's mad but she's magic, there's no lie in her fire. This is possibly one of the worst threads in the history of these forums. -á- CCP Falcon
Leopold Caine Stillwater Corporation 572	Posted - 2015.07.17 13:21:32 - [54] - Quote Kalaratiri wrote: I would like to take a moment to assure readers that the views of the Stillwater corporation and its members do not represent the views of the wider Angel Cartel. Carry on darlings! I'd like to take a moment to remind readers that mercenaries collaborating with Nation sycophants should keep their mouth shut and know their place. Now let's not derail and escalate this out of proportion, dear. Leopold Caine, Domination Malakim Angels are never far... Stillwater Corporation Recruitment Open - Angel Cartel Bloc
Tiberious Thessalonia Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade 2432	Posted - 2015.07.17 13:23:47 - [55] - Quote Leopold Caine wrote: Kalaratiri wrote: I would like to take a moment to assure readers that the views of the Stillwater corporation and its members do not represent the views of the wider Angel Cartel. Carry on darlings! I'd like to take a moment to remind readers that mercenaries collaborating with Nation sycophants should keep their mouth shut and know their place. Now let's not derail and escalate this out of proportion, dear. Nice sexism.
Foley Aberas Jones Huogikku Corporation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 335	Posted - 2015.07.17 13:24:15 - [56] - Quote Elmund Egivand wrote: Samira Kernher wrote: People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, Ms. "Sensitive Girl". This is the last I'll say to you here, Ms. d'Hanguest. You are derailing the purpose of this thread. What is the purpose of this thread? Something about cake i think....
Elmund Egivand Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 523	Posted - 2015.07.17 13:58:47 - [57] - Quote Foley Aberas Jones wrote: Elmund Egivand wrote: Samira Kernher wrote: People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, Ms. "Sensitive Girl". This is the last I'll say to you here, Ms. d'Hanguest. You are derailing the purpose of this thread. What is the purpose of this thread? Something about cake i think.... What is cake? Evergreen ~ Evergreen ~ Evergreen ~ EVERGREEN ~ Evergreen ~ Evergreen ~Evergreen ~ Family
Leopold Caine Stillwater Corporation 572	Posted - 2015.07.17 14:12:11 - [58] - Quote Elmund Egivand wrote: Foley Aberas Jones wrote: Elmund Egivand wrote: Samira Kernher wrote: People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, Ms. "Sensitive Girl". This is the last I'll say to you here, Ms. d'Hanguest. You are derailing the purpose of this thread. What is the purpose of this thread? Something about cake i think.... What is cake? I believe ms. Tenebrae's patisserie enthusiast thread should keep you both entertained. Leopold Caine, Domination Malakim Angels are never far... Stillwater Corporation Recruitment Open - Angel Cartel Bloc
Pieter Tuulinen Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade 5319	Posted - 2015.07.17 15:18:24 - [59] - Quote Leopold Caine wrote: Kalaratiri wrote: I would like to take a moment to assure readers that the views of the Stillwater corporation and its members do not represent the views of the wider Angel Cartel. Carry on darlings! I'd like to take a moment to remind readers that mercenaries collaborating with Nation sycophants should keep their mouth shut and know their place. I'd like to remind readers that every time Vincent Pryce hears Leo here describe himself as an angel he pulls just the MOST humourous face, until we remind him that Leo is probably simply describing himself as a flamboyant homosexual. "Caldari Prime burns, those left behind are choking on the dust and ash that fills the air, and you demand our surrender? Is this a joke? You have only hardened our resolve. Every drop of blood you have taken from us will be repaid -- with interest."
Kalaratiri Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade 670	Posted - 2015.07.17 15:49:38 - [60] - Quote Leopold Caine wrote: Kalaratiri wrote: I would like to take a moment to assure readers that the views of the Stillwater corporation and its members do not represent the views of the wider Angel Cartel. Carry on darlings! I'd like to take a moment to remind readers that mercenaries collaborating with Nation sycophants should keep their mouth shut and know their place. Now let's not derail and escalate this out of proportion, dear. But my place is right here darling! Giving you even greater opportunities to look like an idiot. So kind of you to take advantage of the service I provide. She's mad but she's magic, there's no lie in her fire. This is possibly one of the worst threads in the history of these forums. -á- CCP Falcon
N'maro Makari Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. 497	Posted - 2015.07.17 16:07:25 - [61] - Quote I must be, I don't know, passed out in a bowl of crash with blue pill sprinkles, but it looks like Angel Cartel podders are making arguments based on... legality? Perhaps they even no longer cheat at billiards. Vherokior-á
Aria Jenneth Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade 1166	Posted - 2015.07.17 16:34:22 - [62] - Quote N'maro Makari wrote: I must be, I don't know, passed out in a bowl of crash with blue pill sprinkles, but it looks like Angel Cartel podders are making arguments based on... legality? Perhaps they even no longer cheat at billiards. If I remember, the Angels are pragmatists to a frequently brutal degree. You can maybe expect them not to take a principled stand on anything much, including which side of the law they're on. Where they might seem to be taking a principled stand, it's likely to fit under the heading of "good business practices."
Lyn Farel Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque 1194	Posted - 2015.07.17 19:33:15 - [63] - Quote Samira Kernher wrote: CONCORD makes it illegal. It also makes the drug trade illegal, and that also occurs on the SCC. The SCC is an unregulated free market, it allows business in things that are otherwise illegal in the name of "free trade". The fact that the SCC allows the trade of controlled items doesn't Ah, we may be in disagreement on the interpretation of that specific message... CONCORD wants to remind people that slave trade is strictly forbidden everywhere except within Amarr borders and that there are harsh penalties for engaging in human trade. It only states that slave trade is illegal everywhere but in Amarr borders (they probably forgot the Khanid Kingdom...). Nowhere it states that CONCORD is actually at the source of that legislation. Actually, considering that every empire custom officerenforces it on its own while the SCC, CONCORD sanctioned, allows every good in existence to be traded, is telling. However, I may grant that the mention that CONCORD ships are taking actions too is a bit baffling, because I have never seen them do so. Also, this piece of news dates back from the very dawn of the era of freelance capsuleers, in YC105...
Goldfinch House Rkard 154	Posted - 2015.07.18 03:48:34 - [64] - Quote Samira Kernher wrote: CONCORD makes it illegal. It also makes the drug trade illegal, and that also occurs on the SCC. The SCC is an unregulated free market, it allows business in things that are otherwise illegal in the name of "free trade". We will write an addendum to Ms. Farel's post. The CONCORD statement is inaccurate or incomplete for many reasons: The SCC had been established for decades by YC105, when the statement is made. Being a CONCORD division itself and being that the SCC earns taxes for each slave transaction, it stands to reason that not all of CONCORD wholly agree with the statement. YC105 is followed by decentralization of CONCORD's market hub and then eventually large scale disconnection. So in YC117, the opinions of CONCORD from a trade volume system owner is much less relevant. The present day legality of slave transport is not enforced by a shoot-to-kill policy, as noted in the linked YC105 statement. Instead a hefty fine is imposed by CONCORD and the offender, if they comply, is let go. All this only in systems with explicit CONCORD sovereignty, and nowhere else in the Cluster. To say that SCC markets are unregulated is not accurate. There are many products that are restricted in SCC markets, Blueprints, select Boosters, and so on. We are not contesting your opinion, Lt. Kernher, we agree with it. We hope you understand this humble Civic Court solicitor's nervous twitch for wanting to join in on a discussion of historical legality. veiled and bound my origin story (on R109)
Samira Kernher Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 1935	Posted - 2015.07.18 04:01:39 - [65] - Quote I'm not going to comment further on CONCORD regulations. I do not have a CONCORD law book, I will not engage in any argument with regard to it. The only thing that matters is that it is against God's Law. Whether or not CONCORD considers it legal, it is a crime against God and must be stopped. The end. "Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away." -- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
Goldfinch House Rkard 155	Posted - 2015.07.18 04:13:55 - [66] - Quote We regret for adding our unproductive opinion in this debate. Please accept our apology, Lieutenant. veiled and bound my origin story (on R109)
Ashlar Vellum PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 182	Posted - 2015.07.18 12:01:02 - [67] - Quote Goldfinch wrote: The SCC had been established for decades by YC105, when the statement is made. Being a CONCORD division itself and being that the SCC earns taxes for each slave transaction, it stands to reason that not all of CONCORD wholly agree with the statement. Indeed, it does make you wonder how much of a cut CONCORD get from drugs and other illegal goods sold on the SCC markets, the cherry on top - same markets also work in pirate owned stations with whom CONCORD's other division so valiantly fight. Well, I guess all those bounties have to go from somewhere, especially those that CONCORD put on soulless who "display anti-authoritarian personal pride".
Sinjin Mokk Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly. 268	Posted - 2015.07.18 14:58:33 - [68] - Quote Samira Kernher wrote: I'm not going to comment further on CONCORD regulations. I do not have a CONCORD law book, I will not engage in any argument with regard to it. The only thing that matters is that it is against God's Law. Whether or not CONCORD considers it legal, it is a crime against God and must be stopped. The end. Excellent. Keep to the things you are good at, like killing Nauplius. And do try to remember your place within the Empire when speaking in public to your betters. My point is that we have situations like this where CONCORD "law" and treaties seem to supersede Amarr secular and temporal law. So if you, or anyone happens to disagree with Imperial or CONCORD interpretations of the law or how they can be circumvented, try to learn to live with it. Neither the Empire nor CONCORD seem inclined to change the laws or indeed, even care about your opinions. Dark Amarr: Rumors!
Aria Jenneth Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade 1182	Posted - 2015.07.18 15:25:59 - [69] - Quote Sinjin Mokk wrote: Excellent. Keep to the things you are good at, like killing Nauplius. And do try to remember your place within the Empire when speaking in public to your betters. Augh! I am so sick of hearing this, and it's not even directed at me! Sinjin, I'm going to be blunt. If she could only find her peace with herself and the universe, Samira Kernher would be one of the best of you. What really disgusts me is how hard many many Amarr seem to work to keep her from ever finding that peace. You crush her down under the weight of her own supposed menial state. I've felt a little of that myself. The merest taste of the derision that's directed at her is a large part of why I left the Amarr. That's a luxury Samira doesn't have. She's trapped by chains your culture carefully layered into place. If she's harsh, judgmental, cruel to others as she is to herself, that's something you people made her. No-- scratch that; it wasn't the Kingdom-- but if what I've been seeing from you and your dear cousin here is any example, you'd have done exactly the same, given the chance. And I can't help thinking you'd do the same to me.
Sinjin Mokk Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly. 270	Posted - 2015.07.18 15:59:54 - [70] - Quote Aria Jenneth wrote: Sinjin, I'm going to be blunt. If she could only find her peace with herself and the universe, Samira Kernher would be one of the best of you. What really disgusts me is how hard many many Amarr seem to work to keep her from ever finding that peace. You crush her down under the weight of her own supposed menial state. I've felt a little of that myself. The merest taste of the derision that's directed at her is a large part of why I left the Amarr. That's a luxury Samira doesn't have. She's trapped by chains your culture carefully layered into place. If she's harsh, judgmental, cruel to others as she is to herself, that's something you people made her. No-- scratch that; it wasn't the Kingdom-- but if what I've been seeing from you and your dear cousin here is any example, you'd have done exactly the same, given the chance. And I can't help thinking you'd do the same to me. I did warn you before your sojourn to Amarr that this is exactly the kind of culture you would find there. That no matter how useful, dedicated or faithful you are, if you're not a Holder from one of the Great Houses, you're the help. Liking or hating it is irrelevant. It just is. Removing Amarr arrogance would be about as difficult as removing Amarr slave culture. And to be equally blunt, if you could only find peace with yourself and the universe, you would be one of the best of us. Dark Amarr: Rumors!
Jev North Pyre Falcon Defence and Security 349	Posted - 2015.07.18 16:15:45 - [71] - Quote It's really endearing to watch you try to place yourself over others.
Ashlar Vellum PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 182	Posted - 2015.07.18 16:19:58 - [72] - Quote Aria Jenneth wrote: Sinjin Mokk wrote: Excellent. Keep to the things you are good at, like killing Nauplius. And do try to remember your place within the Empire when speaking in public to your betters. Augh! I am so sick of hearing this, and it's not even directed at me! Sinjin, I'm going to be blunt. If she could only find her peace with herself and the universe, Samira Kernher would be one of the best of you. What really disgusts me is how hard many many Amarr seem to work to keep her from ever finding that peace. You crush her down under the weight of her own supposed menial state. I'm sorry, what again? You do know about Mokk's and Stillwater's loyalties, right? "Best of you", yeah right. You should try a stand-up comedy.
Samira Kernher Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 1945	Posted - 2015.07.18 16:35:30 - [73] - Quote Sinjin Mokk wrote: And do try to remember your place within the Empire when speaking in public to your betters. I do remember my place when speaking to my betters. I am not speaking to any of them here. "Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away." -- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
Aria Jenneth Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade 1190	Posted - 2015.07.18 17:49:20 - [74] - Quote Ashlar Vellum wrote: I'm sorry, what again? You do know about Mokk's and Stillwater's loyalties, right? "Best of you", yeah right. You should try a stand-up comedy. Sinjin and his cousin were speaking as Khanid/Amarr nobility. Holders. Regardless of their present allegiances, it's your culture that this feudal hierarchy comes from, and your culture that enforces it with varying levels of vigor. Their remarks are founded in their place in your culture. There's only so far you can disown that. Sinjin Mokk wrote: I did warn you before your sojourn to Amarr that this is exactly the kind of culture you would find there. That no matter how useful, dedicated or faithful you are, if you're not a Holder from one of the Great Houses, you're the help. Liking or hating it is irrelevant. It just is. Removing Amarr arrogance would be about as difficult as removing Amarr slave culture. Liking or hating it is hugely relevant to (1) whether I will stay and (2) whether I'll tolerate it from people who should know better. From the sounds of things, you don't actually even believe you are better than her. Which is worse, because then you're not even trying to enforce your position in the universe-- you're just trying to hurt her by playing on beliefs you know your culture impressed on her! Quote: And to be equally blunt, if you could only find peace with yourself and the universe, you would be one of the best of us. Hm. In general, it seems like people think I should be a lot more troubled than I am. Some people seem to think I'm an awful person because of it. I'm more or less at peace with who I am and what is asked of me ... and to some people I guess that's horrifying. It's hard not to get angry when I see an injured person being hurt further, though.
Ashlar Vellum PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 185	Posted - 2015.07.18 19:13:34 - [75] - Quote Aria Jenneth wrote: Ashlar Vellum wrote: I'm sorry, what again? You do know about Mokk's and Stillwater's loyalties, right? "Best of you", yeah right. You should try a stand-up comedy. Sinjin and his cousin were speaking as Khanid/Amarr nobility. Holders. Regardless of their present allegiances, it's your culture that this feudal hierarchy comes from, and your culture that enforces it with varying levels of vigor. Their remarks are founded in their place in your culture. There's only so far you can disown that. I see. You spent some time with amarr soulless, heard some things, got drunk on amarrian wine a few times and now you think you understand amarr, that's cute. By your stellar logic Nauplius is a khanid/amarr prophet too. I can only congratulate you on the things you learned in those two or so months, while you were here. So, good work there mrs. Jenneth, that was obviously a time well spent.
Aria Jenneth Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade 1193	Posted - 2015.07.18 19:45:46 - [76] - Quote Respectfully, Ensign, you say a great many things, but you do not say I am wrong, or explain why or how. If you believe I'm wrong, please correct me. Otherwise, I may continue to make incorrect observations. Ashlar Vellum wrote: By your stellar logic Nauplius is a khanid/amarr prophet too. Did you mean to conflate criminals with heretics?
Anyanka Funk Jacklight Corporation 146	Posted - 2015.07.18 20:04:21 - [77] - Quote Pieter Tuulinen wrote: Leopold Caine wrote: Kalaratiri wrote: I would like to take a moment to assure readers that the views of the Stillwater corporation and its members do not represent the views of the wider Angel Cartel. Carry on darlings! I'd like to take a moment to remind readers that mercenaries collaborating with Nation sycophants should keep their mouth shut and know their place. I'd like to remind readers that every time Vincent Pryce hears Leo here describe himself as an angel he pulls just the MOST humourous face, until we remind him that Leo is probably simply describing himself as a flamboyant homosexual. I believe that would make Leopold's place kneeling in front of Sinjin, consequently, with his mouth open.
Odelya d'Hanguest Order of St. Severian 685	Posted - 2015.07.18 20:11:01 - [78] - Quote In Light's Name Ms Jenneth The waters of Amarr are spoiled, but its source pristine. One cannot blame an aberration from the source on the source. Rather, one has to look for distorting circumstancesGÇölike an immature soul or insinuations of Molok. We cannot see how thisGÇöand what are you talking about in specific?GÇöbecomes a personal issue. After all, the ultimate goal is not to shine in the ongoing bonfire of the vanities, but salvation. Yours sincerely Odelya d'Hanguest, Begum etc. pp.
Nauplius Hoi Andrapodistai 397	Posted - 2015.07.18 22:07:19 - [79] - Quote Alizebeth Amalath wrote: Sana Clarret was born on Mishi IV in YC89. The youngest of five brothers and sisters, she was at best described as a troubled girl. Not all people are perfect and some require some added help. After her third arrest for criminal behaviour, she was sentenced to a period of twenty years of slavery for rehabilitation under a proper holder. For most people in her position, this turns out well enough. Their holder will provide them with physical and spiritual care, a purpose and an environment where they will learn to be a valued member of society. Sana never got to her holder. Instead, she was sold on the market by the Civic Court. A capsuleer purchased her on the SCC Market and she found her way into the possession of a Butcher named Nauplius. The Butcher subjected her and many of her fellows to obscene and horrendous blooder rituals that have permanently scarred her psyche. She is one of the lucky ones, saved when an Imperial loyalist fleet destroyed the tower that she and other slaves were held on. Still, she is a shattered individual when she should be on her way to a rehabilitated and meaningful life. That CONCORD continues to permit the buying and selling of people to capsuleers on its SCC markets is a crime not just against scripture, but against humanity. ItGÇÖs not enough that the Amarr stop selling their slaves on the open market, any capsuleer commerce in slaves, no matter how they were acquired, must end. I do not remember the name Sana Clarret, but one whose slave population is in the tens of thousands could hardly be expected to learn the names of his chattel, even if he so wished. Which he does not. I reject the wayward and liberal Empire's notion that slaves are to be rehabilitated. Slaves exist for two reasons GÇö As a source of disposable labor, one to be used up and then discarded when no longer functional. To glorify God in their destruction, especially through torture and sacrificial rites. Nearly all of my slaves are Minmatar, and the remainder comes from the wreckage of Pleasure Hubs, places that (like the Minmatar) God has given over to destruction. Any other non-Minmatar in past or present slavery under my lash would probably be the result of a clerical error or something. Although I sacrifice only Minmatar, I subject all slaves to maximum psychological torture and forced participation in sacrificial rites, and so I would expect anyone to survive my slavery to be "shattered" in more ways than one. God is glorified in this. Nothing you say will alter my behavior. I will continue to "shatter" my slaves each and every day. Amen. Amarr Victor.
Ashlar Vellum PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 187	Posted - 2015.07.18 22:12:01 - [80] - Quote Aria Jenneth wrote: Respectfully, Ensign, you say a great many things, but you do not say I am wrong, or explain why or how. If you believe I'm wrong, please correct me. Otherwise, I may continue to make incorrect observations. Why should I. You didn't seek any explanations you just made your "blunt" assumptions and presented it like unquestionable truth. And to be frank it saddens me to see person who spent two and a half months in SFRIM, learned absolutely nothing about amarr. No, actually scratch that, you did hear titbit here, read some scrap there and clamped everything you "learned" in one big mess - amarr Jenneth's edition. So you got this monstrous amalgamation where words of some cartel scum matters to amarr, but not only that you consider that filth and please do correct me if I'm wrong "one of the best of you". And that's only from one post which is probably just a tip of the iceberg of things you "learned" about amarr. So with all due respect mrs Jenneth, I doubt I can explain anything to you in one post when even SFRIM failed to do so in two months. tldr mrs Jenneth Word of a pirate scumlord doesn't matter, and he can throw his fancy nobility title out of the window as soon as he becomes a criminal. If not for CONCORD's greed and corruption someone would have been re-enslaved by now for his crimes. Same goes for heretics, what they spew or think means jack.
Samira Kernher Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 1968	Posted - 2015.07.18 22:51:03 - [81] - Quote Nauplius wrote: I reject the wayward and liberal Empire's notion that slaves are to be rehabilitated. You keep using this word. It doesn't mean what you think it means. "Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away." -- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
Aria Jenneth Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade 1193	Posted - 2015.07.19 04:52:27 - [82] - Quote Ashlar Vellum wrote: Word of a pirate scumlord doesn't matter, and he can throw his fancy nobility title out of the window as soon as he becomes a criminal. If not for CONCORD's greed and corruption someone would have been re-enslaved by now for his crimes. Same goes for heretics, what they spew or think means jack. You misunderstand a little, Ensign Vellum. I'm not at all addressing the validity of Sinjin Mokk's claim, or Odelya d'Hanguest's. The validity of those claims is ... kind of irrelevant to me. Why would it matter to me what the quality of their blood actually is? What upsets me is the nature of the attacks being flung at your superior. Silence, servant. Know your place. It's a claim of superiority, not by ability, not by merit, but by blood. It's something that has undoubtedly been thrown in the Lieutenant's face all her life (and possibly, to a lesser degree, at yours). It's an attempt to play on a vulnerability that your culture intentionally planted, and that Sinjin and Odelya know about because they come from that same environment. That she appears unaffected (unsurprisingly, since she undoubtedly views the source about the way you do) is irrelevant; it's an attempted low blow on a target whose vulnerability to it was programmed. I found a lot to admire in your Empire, Ensign. ... I guess now it's clear what I couldn't bring myself to admire, or even accept: the idea that some are superior to others by right of birth alone, that it's acceptable to teach a child that she is inferior by blood. I said my share of "milords" while visiting the Empire. They got increasingly hard to say without irony. The fact that I could almost call Sinjin a friend probably has a part in how angry this makes me, as well. Very simply, I expected better from him. Nauplius wrote: Nothing you say will alter my behavior. I will continue to "shatter" my slaves each and every day. Amen. Amarr Victor. "And furthermore: Bwahahaha!"
Samira Kernher Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 1968	Posted - 2015.07.19 05:27:56 - [83] - Quote Please stop. Please take this argument to private mediums. It is derailing from the purpose of this thread. "Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away." -- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
Aria Jenneth Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade 1193	Posted - 2015.07.19 06:00:52 - [84] - Quote Samira Kernher wrote: Please stop. Please take this argument to private mediums. It is derailing from the purpose of this thread. As you wish, Divine Commodore. Ashlar, Sinjin, Odelya: I've said all I mean to, and maybe more than I ought to have. You can reach me by other means, if you must.
Ashlar Vellum PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 187	Posted - 2015.07.19 13:12:06 - [85] - Quote Aria Jenneth wrote: Ashlar Vellum wrote: Word of a pirate scumlord doesn't matter, and he can throw his fancy nobility title out of the window as soon as he becomes a criminal. If not for CONCORD's greed and corruption someone would have been re-enslaved by now for his crimes. Same goes for heretics, what they spew or think means jack. You misunderstand a little, Ensign Vellum. I'm not at all addressing the validity of Sinjin Mokk's claim, or Odelya d'Hanguest's. The validity of those claims is ... kind of irrelevant to me. Why would it matter to me what the quality of their blood actually is? What upsets me is the nature of the attacks being flung at your superior. Silence, servant. Know your place. It's a claim of superiority, not by ability, not by merit, but by blood. It's something that has undoubtedly been thrown in the Lieutenant's face all her life (and possibly, to a lesser degree, at yours). It's an attempt to play on a vulnerability that your culture intentionally planted, and that Sinjin and Odelya know about because they come from that same environment. That she appears unaffected (unsurprisingly, since she undoubtedly views the source about the way you do) is irrelevant; it's an attempted low blow on a target whose vulnerability to it was programmed. I found a lot to admire in your Empire, Ensign. ... I guess now it's clear what I couldn't bring myself to admire, or even accept: the idea that some are superior to others by right of birth alone, that it's acceptable to teach a child that she is inferior by blood. I said my share of "milords" while visiting the Empire. They got increasingly hard to say without irony. The fact that I could almost call Sinjin a friend probably has a part in how angry this makes me, as well. Very simply, I expected better from him. You still don't get it, do you. One of the reasons might be that you expected better from a cartel and "almost" call him a friend. And lieutenant is right, so I'm out.
Aria Jenneth Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade 1197	Posted - 2015.07.19 15:43:21 - [86] - Quote It seems like the SCC permits trade in a lot of odd things. Depending on how you look at it, the SCC market in slaves might be either just another broadly-illegal commodity, comparable to Standard Blue Pill on sale in Jita, or else a uniquely horrible violation of God's will, human rights, or basic human compassion. Usually, I don't have very much to say about things like this. It's certainly true, though, that Standard Blue Pill isn't sapient and doesn't end its existence in misery if it happens to be purchased by Nauplius. Maybe for similar reasons, I have trouble imagining myself in the position of a dose of Blue Pill. It doesn't seem likely that trade in slaves will be disallowed soon, but....
Alizebeth Amalath Sanctus Amarria 74	Posted - 2015.07.20 10:45:32 - [87] - Quote Only holders have the divine right, wisdom and disposition to own, guide, and reclaim slaves properly, with proper oversight of the Theology Council and Ministry of Internal Order. I will continue to fight against the abuse and ownership of slaves by capsuleers until it ends.
Nauplius Hoi Andrapodistai 397	Posted - 2015.07.20 11:35:42 - [88] - Quote Alizebeth Amalath wrote: Only holders have the divine right, wisdom and disposition to own, guide, and reclaim slaves properly, with proper oversight of the Theology Council and Ministry of Internal Order. I will continue to fight against the abuse and ownership of slaves by capsuleers until it ends. God in his infinite Wisdom has made slaves available on the SCC markets so that the Chosen among the Empyreans (such as myself) might glorify him in the sacrifice of those slaves. Everything has proceeded according to God's Will. Amen. Amarr Victor.
Utari Onzo Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 459	Posted - 2015.07.20 11:41:32 - [89] - Quote Nauplius wrote: Alizebeth Amalath wrote: Only holders have the divine right, wisdom and disposition to own, guide, and reclaim slaves properly, with proper oversight of the Theology Council and Ministry of Internal Order. I will continue to fight against the abuse and ownership of slaves by capsuleers until it ends. God in his infinite Wisdom has made slaves available on the SCC markets so that the Chosen among the Empyreans (such as myself) might glorify him in the sacrifice of those slaves. Everything has proceeded according to God's Will. Amen. Amarr Victor. Not really. What is likely to amount to a terrible bureaucratic oversight that you and other filth have abused does not for God's Will make when Scripture says much otherwise, including as well to a whole lot of what tumbles out of your mouth. "Face the enemy as a solid wall For faith is your armor And through it, the enemy will find no breach Wrap your arms around the enemy For faith is your fire And with it, burn away his evil"
Ashlar Vellum PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 187	Posted - 2015.07.20 16:00:08 - [90] - Quote One more interesting thing about SCC is that all of the transactions not only secure, but also secret, with no chance of governmental interference. For entity that siphons tax money from all the transactions that's one smart and elaborate system with a lot of deniability if you are in shady business or if things go wrong.
Aria Jenneth Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade 1205	Posted - 2015.07.20 22:19:49 - [91] - Quote Ashlar Vellum wrote: One more interesting thing about SCC is that all of the transactions not only secure, but also secret, with no chance of governmental interference. For entity that siphons tax money from all the transactions that's one smart and elaborate system with a lot of deniability if you are in shady business or if things go wrong. Yeah, another way that dealings with and among us might maybe resemble dealings with and among nation states. It's pretty anomalous as a system for individuals, though. ... Well ... unless we count each capsuleer as a petty monarch....
Sinjin Mokk Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly. 293	Posted - 2015.07.20 23:49:47 - [92] - Quote Alizebeth Amalath wrote: Only holders have the divine right, wisdom and disposition to own, guide, and reclaim slaves properly, with proper oversight of the Theology Council and Ministry of Internal Order. I will continue to fight against the abuse and ownership of slaves by capsuleers until it ends. Speaking of the Theology Council, I had a stray memory (amazing, I know) on the subject of TCMCs. This is what the Theology Council had to say about them. In short, they don't care how you control your slaves, as long as you treat them well. The real schism about TCMCs were the result of two Tash-Murkon Holders who used the issue to add fuel to their pre-existing feud. The SCOPE blew it all out of proportion and there was some other issues with Gallente using them for "party aids." The lord that didn't like TCMCs later moved to the Mandate. This was six years or so ago and since then, the technology has only improved and the costs have gone way down. I will again, offer a test to my peers. Give it a try. They are far more cost-effective and humane. By His Light and His Will. Dark Amarr: Rumors!
Samira Kernher Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 2002	Posted - 2015.07.20 23:54:21 - [93] - Quote TCMCs are banned across Ardishapur space for their harmful effect on the spiritual growth of slaves. They are not humane. Whip, don't chip. "The word of the Empress is the word of God, the will of the Empress is the will of God. Let no man seek to shirk his obligations before God and His chosen representative in this world." -- Datna Jesebel, Principal Clerk of the Theology Council
Sinjin Mokk Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly. 294	Posted - 2015.07.21 00:20:34 - [94] - Quote Samira Kernher wrote: TCMCs are banned across Ardishapur space for their harmful effect on the spiritual growth of slaves. They are not humane. Whip, don't chip. They can do as they please. The understanding here, is that the Council has not banned them. Individual Holders are free to make their own decisions. coughZaragramcough But when you consider the cost of Control Tools (whips, collars, cortex bombs), guards, fences, sensor equipment, food tasters, professional Drivers, Slave Hounds, etc. and the time it takes to break an individual, a simple TCMC is far more cost-effective and reports indicate production increases as much as 120%! As for the "spiritual" aspect? What is better? A person who has their brain slightly augmented to remove undesirable traits like aggression, or a person who mouths their prayers under duress because they fear the whip or the VITOC? As the Council has said, the choice is left to the Holder. But I think a kind, progressive and responsible Holder would try to do what's best for her Controlled Personnel. The path to God is through toil, not abuse. Dark Amarr: Rumors!
Samira Kernher Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 2002	Posted - 2015.07.21 01:48:24 - [95] - Quote Sinjin Mokk wrote: But when you consider the cost of Control Tools (whips, collars, cortex bombs), guards, fences, sensor equipment, food tasters, professional Drivers, Slave Hounds, etc. and the time it takes to break an individual, a simple TCMC is far more cost-effective and reports indicate production increases as much as 120%! It is more cost effective in the short term. But over the long term it creates a person far less capable of creating and teaching future generations. TCMCs are at their most useful on first generation slaves and other stubborn and resistant troublemakers who require harsher and more expensive education techniques. But after several generations of service you should be relying on the family structure to rear up faithful and dutiful children, as that is cheaper, more effective, and continuous. A Holder looking at the long term profitability of their slave stock understands that the effort and cost spent to break early generation and rebellious slaves will be made back after a few generations. Late generation slaves produced from properly-taught lineages need few if any whips, collars, guards, fences, sensor equipment, slaver hounds, overseers, or vitoxin, because the family will take care of the teaching for you. That is the ultimate goal of slavery, a lineage that can be trusted to raise its children properly without any need for strict oversight. Quote: As for the "spiritual" aspect? What is better? A person who has their brain slightly augmented to remove undesirable traits like aggression, or a person who mouths their prayers under duress because they fear the whip or the VITOC? As the Council has said, the choice is left to the Holder. But I think a kind, progressive and responsible Holder would try to do what's best for her Controlled Personnel. The path to God is through toil, not abuse. Pain is how God intended for us to be taught. It is the natural response to a dangerous, unwise, or self-destructive activity, and serves to teach the body to avoid that activity. Pain is a necessary part of toil! Poor behavior should be associated with pain because that eaches a person to avoid that behavior. It is the most natural and God-given means there is to teach right from wrong. Even if you use a TCMC that only makes slight changes, rather than the full personality and memory remaps that have been reported in use in the Kingdom, it still takes away from the learning experience. If God didn't want us to feel aggression or other negative impulses, he would not allow us to feel them. But we can feel them, we do feel them. He did not create a universe of only good, he created one where there is both good and evil. It is the duty of God's Chosen to cultivate the spirit of man. We must be taught to choose good over evil, by our own free will. Only by learning how to choose it out of our own free will do we grow into righteous adults. If you simply prevent a person from ever even experiencing temptation, they will never learn how to overcome it on their own. They will be forever children. Any Holder that uses TCMCs has demonstrated only their poor ability at teaching properly. It is the easy path. It is, itself, a temptation that you are falling to! It is the sin of sloth. Whip, don't chip. "The word of the Empress is the word of God, the will of the Empress is the will of God. Let no man seek to shirk his obligations before God and His chosen representative in this world." -- Datna Jesebel, Principal Clerk of the Theology Council
Lyn Farel Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque 1209	Posted - 2015.07.21 08:03:52 - [96] - Quote Hardship does not necessarily equates to pain... Also, uh... I think TCMCs certainly do not remove indesirable traits... They merely try to prevent the individual to resort to those traits. If you want a trait removed, you will have to dwelve into True Sansha chips, or other more advanced methods...
Nauplius Hoi Andrapodistai 398	Posted - 2015.07.21 11:26:06 - [97] - Quote I whip...AND I chip. I whip because God is glorified in the destruction of Minmatar. I chip because God commands obedience and cares not whether that obedience be freely given. Whip AND chip. Thus saith Nauplius, Prophet of God. Amen. Amarr Victor.
Aria Jenneth Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade 1207	Posted - 2015.07.21 13:23:14 - [98] - Quote Nauplius wrote: I whip...AND I chip. I whip because God is glorified in the destruction of Minmatar. I chip because God commands obedience and cares not whether that obedience be freely given. Whip AND chip. Thus saith Nauplius, Prophet of God. Amen. Amarr Victor. "P.S.: Bwahahaha!" Well, I'm learning a lot this week. It's a fascinating discussion, even if ... yeah. That slogan doesn't get less chilling by repeating it, Lt. Kernher.

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