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Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3535
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 20:52:43 -
[1] - Quote
I was not there when the Titan appeared in Amarr, but I did hear what happened. The players started bumping the Titan. The Devs got around said bumping via devhax.
Awhile ago, a live event was run that involved the moment of several Minmatar ships though high sec. CCP used a different hack then: Equipping the ships with dev modules. The result was players attempting to gank the live event ships failed. There were loud complaints that CCP was not running a live event, but live a cut-scene. The players were locked out from influencing events. The result was CCP said they would not longer do such things.
Yet, here, in Amarr, they did use dev powers to lock out the players.
CCP: I suggest you address this situation. I see 3 courses of action.
1) Never use any Dev powers to make the event resolve the way you want it to. Let the events run their course, let the players have their say.
2) If there are game mechanics that you feel interfere with your live event, remove those mechanics from the game.
3) Do, in fact, run live cut-scenes. Make it known that any given live event could well be a live cut-scene, and part of the game is figuring out which is which. This is Eve, and eve is harsh. Failure to figure out which is which may have bad consequences.
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Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
598
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Posted - 2015.07.20 21:00:40 -
[2] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:I was not there when the Titan appeared in Amarr, but I did hear what happened. The players started bumping the Titan. The Devs got around said bumping via devhax. The only ones that could classify as "devhax" were the ones used to move the Capital ships from Amarr to Safizon, which given the circumstances would have been troublesome to even leave the primary system when you have 1500m/s Machs ramming the ships and setting them off course.
They could have used Fighters to kill every capsuleer that was bumping the titan. The fact they refrained from such was quite a measured response (I did see that one deployed a few Malleus fighter bombers, but quickly pulled them back) give that such could have been seen as a possible interference on her Imperial Majesty.
"For it was said they had become like those peculiar demons, which dwell in matter but in whom no light may be found." - Father Grigori, Ravens 3:57
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Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3535
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 21:38:15 -
[3] - Quote
It would have been funny to see CONCORD blowing up a Super.
If it should not be possible to have such interference on her Imperial Majesty, maybe the ability to generate such interference should be written out of the game. Or CCP should accept it, just like the rest of us do.
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Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
598
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Posted - 2015.07.20 21:48:38 -
[4] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:It would have been funny to see CONCORD blowing up a Super.
If it should not be possible to have such interference on her Imperial Majesty, maybe the ability to generate such interference should be written out of the game. Or CCP should accept it, just like the rest of us do. But there gets a point where the story must progress, lest it grow stagnant and people stop attending them because nothing gets accomplished. When Jamyl got to Safizon, they jumped her about 50km from the station. The ships in local then started bumping her and managed to push her Avatar off grid. Some ships had difficultly keeping up, even with afterburners in place.
"For it was said they had become like those peculiar demons, which dwell in matter but in whom no light may be found." - Father Grigori, Ravens 3:57
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Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
7338
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 22:22:33 -
[5] - Quote
To be honest, CCP probably had to use devhax either way. Given that non-freighter capitals can't enter highsec, the Jamyl convoy probably couldn't take the gates from Amarr to Safizon, right? So-- one way or another, they'd be devhaxing. :x
That said, meh. Not like bumping does anything but inconvenience anyone, right? I very much doubt anyone would've been able to gank the titan on short notice, so. vOv
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CCP Delegate Zero
C C P C C P Alliance
237
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Posted - 2015.07.21 00:57:17 -
[6] - Quote
At the time of the event that involved QA Shield Extenders, the volumes of feedback the event team received were taken onboard and we said that we would not use those modules or modules of a similar nature going forward.
The reasoning for this was that such modules introduce game-breaking power into a live game play environment and they are not designed for such purposes. Their effect is to nullify interaction. We haven't used them since and we won't again.
We will feel free to use specially designed modules and implants that do not break game power and have at their heart the intention to enable wider interaction in the course of such events. Aurora implants are an example. They are potent but they by no means confer invulnerability and their primary effect is to extend the window of interaction during a live event.
Whether we use them or not depends on the nature of the event and also compensates for limitations we impose on ourselves when it comes to the use of high-end player-available modules. In general, faction equipment is the highest level of equipment we will use.
As to the use of developer tools to enable this event. Yes, they were used. It is not possible to use conventional capital ship movement within high-sec space. We therefore simulated the use of the empire's cynosural network (which exists in lore) by using developer tools both for arrival and departure of the Empress's capital flotilla.
It's not ideal but it is what we have to make such events work and where necessary we will use such tools to enable events. I will note that the team had decided on keeping the actors in space for a given period of time, to allow for such interactions as would crop up to occur, and after that we departed using the same methods used to arrive.
I will note that all our event-planning includes discussion of what the consequences are in the case of being surprised by player actions. While it was somewhat remote as a contingency, we were perfectly prepared to deal with the destruction of the flotilla as a real consequence of the event. We do try very hard not to rely on the likely outcome being the only outcome.
We're looking forward to providing more events in the near future.
CCP Delegate Zero | Game Designer | @CCPDelegateZero
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Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3535
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 01:03:12 -
[7] - Quote
Arline Kley wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:It would have been funny to see CONCORD blowing up a Super.
If it should not be possible to have such interference on her Imperial Majesty, maybe the ability to generate such interference should be written out of the game. Or CCP should accept it, just like the rest of us do. But there gets a point where the story must progress, lest it grow stagnant and people stop attending them because nothing gets accomplished. When Jamyl got to Safizon, they jumped her about 50km from the station. The ships in local then started bumping her and managed to push her Avatar off grid. Some ships had difficultly keeping up, even with afterburners in place.
Then maybe game mechanics should be re-written so the story can progress.
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2286
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 01:25:36 -
[8] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:]
Then maybe game mechanics should be re-written so the story can progress. Example: After several minutes, a ship that has activated its warp drive will warp, irrelevant of its velocity. This still allows for bump-scramming for awhile, long enough for proper tackle to show, without allowing for indefinably prolonged stalemates. The real lore response would actually be that people would only be allowed with 1000km of the titan in Shuttles to present no risk and any armed vessel without permission breaching that zone would be instantly tackled and destroyed by Amarr military forces. Because you know, that's what happens IRL if you turn up with an armoured vehicle to a government leaders parade. They blow the hell out of it if you don't stop it and immediately exit the vehicle and even if you do, they arrest you and confiscate it.
Lets not get carried away demanding no Devhax be used for the sake of 'reality' shall we? |
Akrasjel Lanate
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
1796
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 12:45:26 -
[9] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote: Lets not get carried away demanding no Devhax be used for the sake of 'reality' shall we?
I have no issue with devhacks, they have thus far been reasonably used. Then again not all of the Empires technology is available to the capsuleers.
Akrasjel Lanate
Member of Black Thorne Corporation
Black Thorne Alliance
Citizen of Solitude
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Borascus
637
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 13:02:19 -
[10] - Quote
I didn't really see this as a 'Live Event'.
No offence to anyone, this kind of thing is a necessary visible news article that was not designed to have an impact on the progression of any plot as a tailed event, it was an event sure enough, but not one with any other outcome.
The Battle of Caldari Prime struck me as a live event, though. |
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Vlad Draculesti
Catastrophic Overview Failure Brave Collective
36
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Posted - 2015.07.23 22:46:49 -
[11] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:I was not there when the Titan appeared in Amarr, but I did hear what happened. The players started bumping the Titan. The Devs got around said bumping via devhax.
Awhile ago, a live event was run that involved the moment of several Minmatar ships though high sec. CCP used a different hack then: Equipping the ships with dev modules. The result was players attempting to gank the live event ships failed. There were loud complaints that CCP was not running a live event, but live a cut-scene. The players were locked out from influencing events. The result was CCP said they would not longer do such things.
Yet, here, in Amarr, they did use dev powers to lock out the players.
CCP: I suggest you address this situation. I see 3 courses of action.
1) Never use any Dev powers to make the event resolve the way you want it to. Let the events run their course, let the players have their say.
2) If there are game mechanics that you feel interfere with your live event, remove those mechanics from the game.
3) Do, in fact, run live cut-scenes. Make it known that any given live event could well be a live cut-scene, and part of the game is figuring out which is which. This is Eve, and eve is harsh. Failure to figure out which is which may have bad consequences.
Your logic is stupid. CCP was doing a role play event. Players bumping the titan were not role playing - they were just being generic players - annoying little *****.
If CCP did not teleport the titan out of there it would have never aligned and warped out - which would have resulted in players still being there to this second bumping said titan because that's what little spergelords do.
IF CCP had of taken the other path - more fierce role play - and started destroying player ships that were bumping the titan - then called in Concord and more of the Amarr Navy should players try to escalate it ( think about it - concord would help the Empress and allow the killing of capsuleers for interfering with her rather than take the side of a capsuleer) the end result would be god knows how many posts on the forums bitching at CCP for daring to destroy player ships who they will state were "participating" in a live event.
Well done OP - you've successfully have a ***** about something that CCP was damned if they did - damned if they did not either way.
Would you like a golden star? Perhaps the title of "Spergelord lord of crying wolf and trying to stir a bowl of ****" because you have nothing better to do than complain in game too - you certainly deserve it! |
ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
835
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Posted - 2015.07.24 11:59:56 -
[12] - Quote
Quote:2. Be respectful toward others at all times.
The purpose of the EVE Online forums is to provide a platform for exchange of ideas, and a venue for the discussion of EVE Online. Occasionally there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Forum users are expected to be courteous when disagreeing with others.
3. Ranting is prohibited.
A rant is a post that is often filled with angry and counterproductive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and is helpful in development of the game and community. Rants are disruptive, and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise and clear manner while avoiding going off on rambling tangents.
4. Personal attacks are prohibited.
Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not conductive to the community spirit that CCP promotes. As such, this kind of behavior will not be tolerated. I have removed a post.
ISD Decoy
Captain
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Esna Pitoojee
Offworld Trading Company Ethical Carnage
516
|
Posted - 2015.07.24 16:27:30 -
[13] - Quote
I'd just like to step in and say that I frankly feel there is nothing wrong with using devhax, even devhax modules, to provide a more interesting and cohesive overall narrative.
People showing up and interrupting every single meeting is not a fun narrative. "Let's **** with people because we can", while perhaps in the spirit of EVE, is not a fun narrative. Factional leaders getting constantly suicide ganked, perma-bumped, or otherwise disrupted to the point the event cannot continue is not.
Having events where capsuleers can significantly alter the outcome is a good thing - but so is having events that put the might and prestige of the empires on display, especially for players who otherwise might not have interacted with the storyline before.
And there's absolutely nothing wrong with fudging things a bit to make that happen. Don't think of it like the Battle of Caldari Prime - think of it just like you said, a cut-scene. A trailer that you happen to view ingame. |
iyammarrok
Virtually Anonymous Milk Of The Poppy
384
|
Posted - 2015.07.25 19:24:48 -
[14] - Quote
Borascus wrote:I didn't really see this as a 'Live Event'.
No offence to anyone, this kind of thing is a necessary visible news article that was not designed to have an impact on the progression of any plot as a tailed event, it was an event sure enough, but not one with any other outcome.
The Battle of Caldari Prime struck me as a live event, though.
?? A live event is any event run by dev actors and not limited to a scripted AI encounter.
Not all live events will be designed as a combat event. This was certainly one such example.
Not indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated.
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Borascus
638
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Posted - 2015.07.26 15:04:19 -
[15] - Quote
iyammarrok wrote:Borascus wrote:I didn't really see this as a 'Live Event'.
No offence to anyone, this kind of thing is a necessary visible news article that was not designed to have an impact on the progression of any plot as a tailed event, it was an event sure enough, but not one with any other outcome.
The Battle of Caldari Prime struck me as a live event, though. ?? A live event is any event run by dev actors and not limited to a scripted AI encounter. Not all live events will be designed as a combat event. This was certainly one such example.
I understand your point, I think it's a wasted investment to consider primer events a 'live event' as other people have expectations of live events being inclusive, and to get over that interaction deficit I've opted to treat live events in EVE with levels, the ship revea, for me, was less than a scope video, for people who like to chatter about character postures and the character choices amongst themselves; no problem, glad you got that time.
The opportunity to shoot Elder Mentor Raish was more what people openly said they expect when devs turn up.
The Hilen Tukoss memorial tonight at 18:00 is not on the scale of a 'live event' and more of a player gathering. If a dev was doing a reading of a will in Eram local, I still wouldn't treat it as a live event, more a live gathering. If something else turned up it would be an event.
I hope that clears up our differences. |
Commander Spurty
Dimension Door We need wards.
1529
|
Posted - 2015.07.28 14:40:45 -
[16] - Quote
How does CONCORD come into this?
This story contains 'NPCs'.
CONCORD only make an appearance when it's PC vs PC
There are good ships
And wood ships
And ships that sail the sea
But the best ships are
Spaceships
Built by CCP
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Yockerbow
Aliastra Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.07.30 08:31:13 -
[17] - Quote
Commander Spurty wrote:How does CONCORD come into this?
This story contains 'NPCs'.
CONCORD only make an appearance when it's PC vs PC
In the older Sansha live events, which I have been told were done using different mechanics, none of the actor ships (even CONCORD agents) were subject to CONCORD protection, and likewise were not subject to the normal CONCORD rules. They only triggered CONCORD when someone got the clever idea to spawn police NPCs in smartbomb range of the carriers. Coincidentally this more or less ended that series of events.
In the recent events, the Amarr navy ships and (to a point) the SoCT ship had full protection, as shown by the folks suiciding into them in Safizon and Amarr.
Quote:As to the use of developer tools to enable this event. Yes, they were used. It is not possible to use conventional capital ship movement within high-sec space. We therefore simulated the use of the empire's cynosural network (which exists in lore) by using developer tools both for arrival and departure of the Empress's capital flotilla.
It's not ideal but it is what we have to make such events work and where necessary we will use such tools to enable events. I will note that the team had decided on keeping the actors in space for a given period of time, to allow for such interactions as would crop up to occur, and after that we departed using the same methods used to arrive.
I will note that all our event-planning includes discussion of what the consequences are in the case of being surprised by player actions. While it was somewhat remote as a contingency, we were perfectly prepared to deal with the destruction of the flotilla as a real consequence of the event. We do try very hard not to rely on the likely outcome being the only outcome.
We're looking forward to providing more events in the near future.
Understood, and many thanks for getting these going again.
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Tyranis Marcus
Bloody Heathens
1439
|
Posted - 2015.07.31 21:27:45 -
[18] - Quote
Faction navies shoot people all the time with no concord response. It's part of the game design.
Do not run. We are your friends.
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Tyranis Marcus
Bloody Heathens
1439
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Posted - 2015.07.31 21:36:35 -
[19] - Quote
And personally, if people want to bump Jamyl's titan or some other government ships, I think CCP should annihlate them. Maybe tell them to back off first, in rp, then just open fire when they don't. No need to coddle the entitled little crybabies. Enjoy their tears. Show the troublemakers they don't own the game for a change. If they want to play bad, they need to HTFU.
Do not run. We are your friends.
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
6875
|
Posted - 2015.08.01 23:10:06 -
[20] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:To be honest, CCP probably had to use devhax either way. Given that non-freighter capitals can't enter highsec, the Jamyl convoy probably couldn't take the gates from Amarr to Safizon, right? So-- one way or another, they'd be devhaxing. :x
That said, meh. Not like bumping does anything but inconvenience anyone, right? I very much doubt anyone would've been able to gank the titan on short notice, so. vOv
Seeing that the game is infested with people whose idea of "the game" is to ruin said game, it need not even be Eve - just any game will do, then devhax are justified. If a ship MUST get from point A to point B without people whose only idea of leaving a mark on anything is to ruin it getting in the way and devhax is the only way to beat them, then so be it.
Of course to see a live event ruined by bumping just might enlighten the developers to what the players have to deal with in this no-aggro form of attack.
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
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Aeon Amadii
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2015.08.02 03:31:35 -
[21] - Quote
I really don't see much point. Players that aren't invested in the Lore or care about the progression of story arcs are just going to turn it into a giant debacle for the sake of it. You'll always have players trying to bump titans or firing on key story characters with no real reason or drive other than to... well, essentially troll the community that does care about those sort of things.
I'd personally take the live cut-scenes than to see something along the lines of Empress Jamyl undocking in her Titan and then we all get to spend five hours waiting for her to align the damn thing just move things along. Realistically speaking, the Amarr Navy would likely just blast the offending party into oblivion and the next thing you know you have a whole Capsuleer vs Amarr Navy version of B-R going down because of a freaggin keelaying ceremony.
Sandbox? Sure. Interesting? Maybe. Immersion breaking? Incredibly.
(This character is the Eve version of Aeon Amadi)
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Mike Azariah
The Scope Gallente Federation
2908
|
Posted - 2015.08.02 05:25:21 -
[22] - Quote
I agree that the actions of the PC's bumping the Empresses ship should have lead to their (a) warning followed quickly by (b) waking up in a home station.
Tell me with a straight face that Concord would object to a head of state reacting to unwanted harassment. Warning, boom.
I class Live events into three categories.
1) Cut scene where you are a witness bu the end is already planned and set in stone. Battle where the Titan crashed into the planet.
2) Pinata events, dev roams with their hold full of gookies, most recent have been the conclusions of o7 shows, no story, just fun and games
3) Live events where the devs HAVE to react and think on their feet as the ending/results of the event are NOT set in stone. Players actions can and will effect the outcome.
I want the third type more often adn am willing for the devs to be allowed the powers to . . . how to say it . . . move props and use dev hacks to set the stage and make the story work in spite of interlopers who have no wish to be part of the lore, just to become the center of attention. Empress and Max? Gold. Bumping the Empresses ship, a waste of time and immersion breaking.
my 2 isk
m
Mike Azariah Gö¼GöÇGöÇGö¼n++ ¯|(pâä)/¯
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Yockerbow
Aliastra Gallente Federation
3
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Posted - 2015.08.02 07:13:26 -
[23] - Quote
Tyranis Marcus wrote:Faction navies shoot people all the time with no concord response. It's part of the game design.
And people shoot faction navies all the time with no CONCORD response, though this is now not carried over into the current live events.
Quote:I agree that the actions of the PC's bumping the Empresses ship should have lead to their (a) warning followed quickly by (b) waking up in a home station.
Tell me with a straight face that Concord would object to a head of state reacting to unwanted harassment. Warning, boom.
Not disagreeing with that a bit. |
Matar Ronin
668
|
Posted - 2015.08.02 23:14:45 -
[24] - Quote
The real bottom line ...... CCP could not put up with the shenanigans from the ice holes they've coddled for years for even one hour!
While we the rate paying subscribers have to live with it constantly.
Way to go CCP! The word hypocrite comes to mind. Man up or stay out of the sandbox!
Next time there should be a no fly zone around any head of state, enter it at great an immediate peril from their escort, no need for extra devhax, just lock and boom!
Imperial jump bridge network? Sure why wouldn't all the empires have a way to protect themselves from internal threats.
GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ
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Soren Tyrhanos
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
92
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Posted - 2015.08.03 02:33:34 -
[25] - Quote
Aeon Amadii wrote:I really don't see much point. Players that aren't invested in the Lore or care about the progression of story arcs are just going to turn it into a giant debacle for the sake of it. You'll always have players trying to bump titans or firing on key story characters with no real reason or drive other than to... well, essentially troll the community that does care about those sort of things.
I'd personally take the live cut-scenes than to see something along the lines of Empress Jamyl undocking in her Titan and then we all get to spend five hours waiting for her to align the damn thing just move things along. Realistically speaking, the Amarr Navy would likely just blast the offending party into oblivion and the next thing you know you have a whole Capsuleer vs Amarr Navy version of B-R going down because of a freaggin keelaying ceremony.
Sandbox? Sure. Interesting? Maybe. Immersion breaking? Incredibly.
Agreed.
I mean the event itself was rather...... meaningless to me until someone from the PIE/CVA fleets began transcribing the NPC speech simply because there was a rather ridiculous amount of nonsense being evacuated into the local chat. Now if the event had been delayed by minutes or hours by every bump or ineffectual burst of autocannon fire I don't believe anyone would gained anything from the event.
Call it a cut-scene if you wish but the fact that this was an event CCP took the time to organise, plan, and sit through despite all of the shenanigans is definitely better than none for fear the player base will sabotage every subsequent event ruining all attempts at players trying to enjoy a sense of immersion. |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
6885
|
Posted - 2015.08.03 16:48:07 -
[26] - Quote
Matar Ronin wrote:The real bottom line ...... CCP could not put up with the shenanigans from the ice holes they've coddled for years for even one hour!
While we the rate paying subscribers have to live with it constantly.
Way to go CCP! The word hypocrite comes to mind. Man up or stay out of the sandbox!
Next time there should be a no fly zone around any head of state, enter it at great an immediate peril from their escort, no need for extra devhax, just lock and boom!
Imperial jump bridge network? Sure why wouldn't all the empires have a way to protect themselves from internal threats.
Lore wise, I think ALL factions already have jump bridge networks.
Think about the Norse in Templar One. In "Eve reality" that ship would have been caught in a bubble and destroyed in week 1, or would have taken months to travel from point A to B trying to avoid them. Yet that thing just went from Mordus HQ to Amamake repeatedly with no issues to travel and I'm reading that book wondering "why is this ship not instalokied and destroyed in 2 seconds like any other ship making repeated rounds between those areas?"
The answer is simple: they have their own jump network.
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
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Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
386
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Posted - 2015.08.17 01:09:33 -
[27] - Quote
My two bits on this older one? I agree on there needs to be no fly zones.
From a roleplayer perspective and based on my knowledge of the eve universe, This would best be performed from a CCP live events characters running as concord escort for dignitaries.
From a story perspective, this is simply that in empire space, there can be a certain level of restriction placed on capsuleer involvement in empire affairs outside of paid employment in militia. As result, militaries establish no fly zones around key ships to prevent militia from using non aligned capsuleers from performing terrorist operations, say 10km. The Dev NPC will give the warnings followed by flagging the character to said empire or as suspect if that is doable. Result is the NPC escort navies just destroy said ships. Get too close or bump our titan, get destroyed. If players make it bad, then make a full space warning. Is their empire, is their rules. |
Tyrel Toov
Minmatar Confederate Ushra'Khan
607
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Posted - 2015.08.31 02:23:43 -
[28] - Quote
Aeon Amadii wrote: Sandbox? Sure. Interesting? Maybe. Immersion breaking? Incredibly.
Depends on who is fragging the titan. If the TLF fields a fleet to make a show of force against the Amarr, this would be a good target for said fleet, and wouldn't break immersion.
I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
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Satja Askariin
Republic University Minmatar Republic
9
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Posted - 2015.08.31 02:52:09 -
[29] - Quote
Tyrel Toov wrote:Aeon Amadii wrote: Sandbox? Sure. Interesting? Maybe. Immersion breaking? Incredibly.
Depends on who is fragging the titan. If the TLF fields a fleet to make a show of force against the Amarr, this would be a good target for said fleet, and wouldn't break immersion.
But then you wouldn't get any option of story progression through the event.....though would would get a pretty awesome fight.
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2423
|
Posted - 2015.08.31 05:46:44 -
[30] - Quote
Satja Askariin wrote: But then you wouldn't get any option of story progression through the event.....though would would get a pretty awesome fight.
As mentioned, all you would get is a concord showing. Since Event Actors are effectively 'players' |
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