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Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.02 23:39:00 - [1] Oh yes, I'm full of solutions today So, biggest problem with Jita is that it's in a prime location, right? Obviosly we can't just change the accessibility, since a new hub would just spring up to replace it (alla Yulai). So what we need to do is solve the problem of crowding- how do we stop everyone bunching together in one system? The thing is- missions. Most people in high sec rely on missions as a form of income. There are two knee-jerk reactions to this, that are bandied around alot- either "nerf missions!!111!" or "move them all (lvl4 atleast) to low sec!", both of which I consider reactionary and rubbish. So whats a better solution? Heres mine- have the quality rating of each agent calculated dynamically, according to use. In other words, the more an agent is used (universally), the lower it's quality drops. The less an agent is used, the higher it's quality rises to compensate. What this will mean is that agents in and near major hubs like Jita, Ours and Rens will become the low-end agents- if you insist on hanging around the hubs, your wallet gets a hit. The agents in the back-water high-sec systems would most likely become the average quality agents. The low-sec flavours would undoubtedly be the majorly valuable agents. What this should mean is that players are encouraged to spread out and utilise all the space available- good for the nodes, and good for the economy. High-sec should be (atleast a littlle bit) more evenly spread with population. Low-sec also becomes the prime territory- if you want the high rewards, you have to risk it. Alternatively, it might just ean that agent quality fluctuates wildly as the mission runners move from agent to agent- also not a bad thing, as atleast it keeps people on their toes, and stops new "OMG UBER HUBS" from forming. Yarr. -----------------------------------------------
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.12.02 23:41:00 - [2] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 02/12/2006 23:46:07 Its a good idea in theory, but personally I would probably just grind some missions even if the quality was low. Its not the mission reward Im after, because it always sucks. Im after the bounties and the loot. I dont think those are affected by agent quality, are they? Well, maybe they should be. I would consider doing the missions somewhere else if the bounties were higher and the loot was better. And also move if I notice the bounties and loot getting sucky. Im not a big mission runner though, I just do them sometimes. Im not so sure what Jita has to do with it though... you only have like level 1 agents there, right? --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.02 23:44:00 - [3] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 02/12/2006 23:42:31 Its a good idea in theory, but personally I would probably just grind some missions even if the quality was low. Its not the mission reward that is good, its the bounties and loot. I dont think those are affected by agent quality, are they? Well, maybe they should. I've never really mission *****d much, not for months anyhow. But I was of the impression that quality determined what flavour of mission came your way aswell- almost none of the good missions I ran were from low quality agents. Even though you are right, people do still tend to flock to the better quality agents. You don't see many -20's with a queue, really. -----------------------------------------------
Lysit Kaune	Posted - 2006.12.02 23:45:00 - [4] I may be wrong but my understanding was that agent quality only effected standing gain with faction/corp.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.02 23:47:00 - [5] Originally by: Lysit Kaune I may be wrong but my understanding was that agent quality only effected standing gain with faction/corp. It deffinatly affects the reward / bonuses, but not neccesarily what I said above you- that was just a guess. And anyhow, if that were the case- I'd suggest we change it -----------------------------------------------
Verus Potestas Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2006.12.02 23:48:00 - [6] I'm fine with Jita as a trade hub. Eve needs trade hubs IMO. What it does need though, is a bypass. An empty system, linked up to all the gates which Jita is linked to, which is 1.0 and has no stations, no roids and no agent missions are ever set there. Make autopilot through Jita automatically plot that route, so you only go to Jita if your destination is Jita. Easy to add RP wise as well: Due to the vast amounts of traffic travelling through Jita, System X, previously ignored due to it's complete lack of natural resources was connected to the gate network, handily providing a bypass around Jita, for those who were simply passing through. Between corps atm, the NPC one is strictly a temporary thing. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.12.02 23:49:00 - [7] Well, however it works today, I like the idea of a dynamic reward system like you are suggesting Patch. Details can be discussed, but its always good for the cluster if not everyone is at the same place. I dont know if it solves the Jita problem, but it would make mission hotspots less populated overall. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Verus Potestas Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2006.12.02 23:49:00 - [8] Quality affects reward (Standings, ISK, LP, time bonuses) but NOT the missions or their content. Between corps atm, the NPC one is strictly a temporary thing. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.12.02 23:50:00 - [9] Originally by: Verus Potestas Quality affects reward (Standings, ISK, LP, time bonuses) but NOT the missions or their content. They should. Then his idea works. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.02 23:51:00 - [10] Originally by: Verus Potestas Quality affects reward (Standings, ISK, LP, time bonuses) but NOT the missions or their content. Maybe thats due for a change? -----------------------------------------------
Shi Mun Caldari Aurora Development Corp	Posted - 2006.12.02 23:54:00 - [11] Tbh i like patches idea, adding a dynamic system to the game increases how much players contribute to the game environment and will undoubtly make a few people move around. But, a lot of people in jita arent doing missions, in fact the majority isnt, however evry little helps. I say go for it --------------------------- HAHA! your jammers suck now! Oh wait whats happening to my scorpion...
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.12.02 23:56:00 - [12] Originally by: Shi Mun Tbh i like patches idea, adding a dynamic system to the game increases how much players contribute to the game environment and will undoubtly make a few people move around. But, a lot of people in jita arent doing missions, in fact the majority isnt, however evry little helps. I say go for it There is heavy lag in all the mission runner systems, so this idea would help spread those players out a bit too. I havent done missions in a long while now, but when I did, Motsu was unplayable at times for example. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.02 23:59:00 - [13] Originally by: Shi Mun Tbh i like patches idea, adding a dynamic system to the game increases how much players contribute to the game environment and will undoubtly make a few people move around. But, a lot of people in jita arent doing missions, in fact the majority isnt, however evry little helps. I say go for it Yar, no harm in a trade hubs per se. The idea would be just to help encourage people into other areas of high-sec (and low-sec, but lets not get too ambitious) for all possible reasons other than trade. Seeing as Jita isn't THAT much more accessible than anywhere else (not like Yulai was on it's highway, anyhow), so hopefully it'd lessen the load on Jita atleast a little. Also, it'd be cool anyway, Jita aside Think about it- you're an agent with a bunch of missions. Every day you get assailed by 1000's of people looking for work- are you going to need to ofer much money to them to ge the man-power? Alternatively you're an agent in some backwater region, who only get's visited by 50 people a day- arn't you going to start offering the best pay you can to try and attract employees? -----------------------------------------------
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.12.03 00:03:00 - [14] This idea gets my stamp of approval until someone figures out what we havent thought of yet. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Doshu Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2006.12.03 00:11:00 - [15] Oh the irony, I am checking this thread out while waiting in line (68th) to login in JITA. mutters SturmGrenadier
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.03 00:23:00 - [16] Originally by: Doshu Oh the irony, I am checking this thread out while waiting in line (68th) to login in JITA. mutters See? Hence the brilliance -----------------------------------------------
Ardus Brintar	Posted - 2006.12.03 01:18:00 - [17] The problem with making agents depend on the number of people using them is as the universe's population grows, the number of agents won't and they will all start auto-nerfing their rewards for months until more agents are added or the nerf threshhold adjusted. It's like office space, labs and factories. Once upon a time there were plenty you just had to go off highway a bit and as population grew they filled up and office rents climbed into the millions until more were added. Now most office rents aren't that bad although they are climbing again and its 2-3 weeks wait to get a research slot because there is a lot more demand for a finite set of resources who's limit was established when the pod pilot population wasn't as high. I do really like the idea of adjusting the map though. Make the current Jita gates part of a bypass system with no stations that people just passing through the region go through and make Jita a dead end system that has one gate to/from the bypass system and does not go anywhere else, so you don't enter the trade hub system unless you have business there. Establish hub systems like this in other empire regions. The only problem is people might move the hub on you since Jita is one more jump away. There is as any easy way to discourage this. Declare them "trade development zones" or create a dedicated trade station and give people tax breaks there. A 50%-100% reduction on transaction taxes would strongly encourage large industrialists and miners to trade in the designated area. To further encourage the system be used only for trade, trade zones borders should be drawn so they don't include asteriod belts and should not have mission agents.
John Proakis	Posted - 2006.12.03 01:44:00 - [18] The new Contracts system doesn't help to the situation.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.12.03 22:51:00 - [19] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 03/12/2006 22:55:32 Kerfira, you come across as pretty rude and arrogant, but im agreeing with you that Jita is a trade hub and not a mission hub. Nevertheless, mission systems are generally pretty populated as well, arent they? When I used to run level 4 missions in Motsu, I had insane lag at times. So Patch's idea could very well work to fix the mission systems lag, no? As for Jita being a trade hub, I think there should be a bypass and the autopilot should pick it. Then you will at least not force people to enter the system just to pass through. Now that Jita is pretty established as a trade hub, I dont think a new one will pop up in the bypass system. In fact, the bypass system could have 0 stations to completely prevent it. And why are the newbies being sent to Jita? Seems to me that ccp could just introduce a bypass system and make the missions dont go near Jita... and you solve a lot of the current problems. But I dont know, I must be missing something since its so obvious. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Miri Tirzan Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.03 22:55:00 - [20] Gotta admit, I dont see the relationship between missions and Jita other than the OP wants to change missions. This seems like more of a High Sec wide nerf of missions to try and force mission runners out of high sec. The bypass would be nice and solve some of the congestion problems. svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
Maj Disaster	Posted - 2006.12.03 22:57:00 - [21] Edited by: Maj Disaster on 03/12/2006 22:57:49 HereÆs a better solution... ---------------------------------------------------- A horrific industrial accident believed to have been a direct result of slipping safety standards in the notoriously over industrialised Jita system has caused the entire vaporisation of every solid object in the system. Speculation is rife, based on largely unsubstantiated rumours but it is believed that the event may have been triggered by a chemical reaction and then massive explosion in one of the ammunitions factories causing an unprecedented chain reaction throughout the system. All property located in the system has been lost bankrupting many well known industrialist corporations. Many of the rarest Tech 2 blueprint originals in the universe were believed to have been located there leading to a surge in demand for laboratory space as hopeful researchers compete to invent replacement technology. Salvage teams are racing to reach the system in hopes of huge profits but are estimated to be at least 10 years from reaching the system by conventional space flight. All personnel located in the system were of course vaporised causing some industrialist corporations slight additional inconvenience as a few key personnel also had their spare clones located in the system and will take years of retraining to return them to productive employees. (Many of the more unscrupulous corporations are believed to have cut their losses and sold these unfortunates to traders in neighbouring regions as slaves) --------------------------------------------------- DonÆt see overpopulated hub systems re-occurring too quickly after that kind of role play eventà. Indeed I can see a few other similar systems emptying rapidly within daysà.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.12.03 22:59:00 - [22] Originally by: Miri Tirzan This seems like more of a High Sec wide nerf of missions to try and force mission runners out of high sec. No, all agents in high sec remains in high sec. But you put in a dynamic system with agents that arent being used giving better rewards. And then you get people moving around and spreading out. Right? --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Soporo	Posted - 2006.12.03 22:59:00 - [23] Make more Agents, or improve the quality of the other Agents. You know what, it just occured to me that the Stab Nerf and new Scan/Probing is making Hubs worse indirectly. Why? LowSec Missioners are leaving LowSec now for those reasons.
Miri Tirzan Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.03 23:15:00 - [24] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Miri Tirzan This seems like more of a High Sec wide nerf of missions to try and force mission runners out of high sec. No, all agents in high sec remains in high sec. But you put in a dynamic system with agents that arent being used giving better rewards. And then you get people moving around and spreading out. Right? All high sec agents are going to be used alot. Low sec is no longer viable with the scanner buff and WCS nerf. The WCS nerf is ok with me but making scanners idiot proof is just killing low sec mission running. So the suggested change is going to nerf agents in high sec and make it less profitible to do missions in high sec. That is why I appears that his thread is less about missions in Jita and more about how to make missions less profitible in high sec. So, it make things short this suggested change only help try and push people out of high sec. So why not just name this thread--"Nerf high sec mission running to get people into low sec." svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
All Around	Posted - 2006.12.03 23:17:00 - [25] you are real whiners. come on, if you don't want to be stuck in the traffic - don't log in jita. like in RL, if you want to enter a big city, expect to be stuck in traffics. there are good and even better agents in other places so spread out. 0.0 is not such a bad place. you can even make a lot more money there, get connections with corp mates which have tech 2 bpo's and even find worthable loot from rats, not to mention the mining advantages. if you are doing missions in jita just for a navy ship offer - it doesn't worth it and if it's for other offers, there are great npc agents in 0.0 so instead of cry for the dev to fix everything, fix your way of thinking because the game is one and we are 32k the last sentance was sounded like a teacher's one so in order to balance my karma again ill just go and swear for 10 minutes.
Merdaneth	Posted - 2006.12.03 23:29:00 - [26] I never went to Jita, because of the lag stories. The worse Jita will get, the less people it will attract to trade. In the end it will start to correct itself because even traders won't find it a convenient stopover point anymore if they have to wait to enter for over an hour. Therefore Jita (as long as queues are in place) is partially self-solving. Alternately, base market taxes on the amount being traded, that was how it went in trading cities of old. They used their favorable position to ask more taxes and tariffs. That way trade hubs are dynamically restrained by ever rising taxes. And this solution has got nothing to do with mission runners too, even though I like the dynamic mission runner idea.
Shakuul Caldari The Imperial Commonwealth	Posted - 2006.12.03 23:31:00 - [27] Could they just add an option not to load models of other ships? So they would appear in the Overview and as little squares on the screen, but you wouldn't see them? Would this actually reduce lag or is there a cause of lag that I'm missing? I don't really know that much about networking or online game programming so if someone does that would help.
Kerfira	Posted - 2006.12.03 23:32:00 - [28] Originally by: Jim McGregor Kerfira, you come across as pretty rude and arrogant... I know, but that's part of the fun Generally I answer posts way more politely, but the OP was so blatantly a post against mission runners, and picking up Jita as an excuse (completely without merit), that I couldn't resist heating the thread up a little It's ok to have an idea that you think would be nice, but if you have to invent reasons to have them implemented, you deserve a little flaming. Originally by: Jim McGregor ...but im agreeing with you that Jita is a trade hub and not a mission hub. Nevertheless, mission systems are generally pretty populated as well, arent they? When I used to run level 4 missions in Motsu, I had insane lag at times. So Patch's idea could very well work to fix the mission systems lag, no? Actually I don't really think so. Some time ago CCP moved ALL the Caldari Navy high-quality combat agents to the constellation Motsu is in now. I think they did that for performance reasons, and probably have extra hardware allocated. Motsu/Aramachi are actually not all that bad these days lag-wise, and they're nowhere near what Hageken (aka. 'Lag-eken') used to be (I play the Euro timezone too). Originally by: Jim McGregor As for Jita being a trade hub, I think there should be a bypass and the autopilot should pick it. Then you will at least not force people to enter the system just to pass through. Now that Jita is pretty established as a trade hub, I dont think a new one will pop up in the bypass system. In fact, the bypass system could have 0 stations to completely prevent it. Yup, by-passes NOW! Doesn't even have to be new systems, but just direct jump gates between Sobaseki, New Caldari, Muvolailen and Kisogo (and maybe Niyabainen). If these systems were directly connected to each other, the autopilot would automatically bypass Jita if only passing through. Originally by: Jim McGregor And why are the newbies being sent to Jita? Seems to me that ccp could just introduce a bypass system and make the missions dont go near Jita... and you solve a lot of the current problems. But I dont know, I must be missing something since its so obvious. Beats me too.... General advice: Stop whining!
dantes inferno Caldari Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet	Posted - 2006.12.03 23:33:00 - [29] the hub solution? more people = lower sec status hoorah no longer will people crowd in one system as that will eventualy lead to it becoming the dreaded and feared 0.0!!!!! RAM is recruiting
Kerfira	Posted - 2006.12.03 23:38:00 - [30] Edited by: Kerfira on 03/12/2006 23:42:08 Originally by: Shakuul Could they just add an option not to load models of other ships? So they would appear in the Overview and as little squares on the screen, but you wouldn't see them? Would this actually reduce lag or is there a cause of lag that I'm missing? I don't really know that much about networking or online game programming so if someone does that would help. All the graphics are done locally on your computer, so the only 'lag' from that is client-lag, which is purely local on your computer. It doesn't affect the server at all. All that's transmitted from the server to your computer when you 'see' another ship is that: "This is player <playername>, and he's flying ship type 267 with the name of <shipname>". Your computer then takes the number 267 and makes all the nice graphics (there's a bit more to it than that, but that's the basics). That being said, there is one 'feature' that CCP has admitted exists in some other thread, and that is that every time you jump into another play grid (i.e. through warps or jumpgates), the total cargo content of all players already in that grid when you arrives gets downloaded to your computer. This is NOT good for performance, especially in a trade system like Jita where there is a LOT of ships with lots of items in their cargo.

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